M Records being moved to A? What's the straight scoop?

[aswracing]

Is this really going to happen for bike records set in "M" with aftermarket cases? Does anyone know the straight scoop? Is it an official decision? Has it been announced somewhere?

I looked around on the SCTA site but can't find it. The records they have listed there don't reflect this change. Is it rumor or fact?

Seems like a critical piece of info for people to be able to plan for the season and prepare their bikes, something people need to be doing right now.

[landracing]

Aaron,

THsi is the answer I got last friday on the subject, Of moving M class records that were set with Aftermarket cases to A class.

"2. We are in the process of reviewing the records."

Jon

[aswracing]

Well that's real helpful  

Here we are 2 months from the start of the season and we don't know what records we're running against.

I can see how moving them would be a mess.

Some M records will be thrown out, because they were done with aftermarket cases but they're slower than the existing A record. Is that fair to the people who set those records in M?

For any M record they vacate due to the use of aftermarket cases, they'll need to go back and figure out what the fastest previous M record was for that class that was done with factory cases, and give the record to him. Could be multiple records back. So someone who lost his record years ago, surprise, you get it back!

Now here's a sticky problem for you. Suppose they give the M record back to RacerA who set it in 1980, because he was the last one to hold it with stock cases. And let's say that RacerB took it away in 1985 with aftermarket cases. And now let's say that RacerC with stock cases ran in 1990 and went faster than RacerA's old speed but not as fast as RacerB.

RacerC got screwed. He should be the one to inherit the record, but his timing was bad.

This is the kind of mess that happens when you try to fix a mistake with another mistake. Hope they're thinking it through. I doubt it though.

The moving of the records would actually benefit me with one bike, because I'd get to keep working on the same record we were working on. But that doesn't make it right.

On the other bike, whether they move the records or not makes little difference. It'll cost me a soft M fuel class record if they do, one I set on gasoline, but that record wouldn't have lasted anyway (hence my purchase of S&S cases so I could put some nitrous to it and make the record respectable, a plan that's now out the window). The equivalent A class record was set by a true A bike and the only way I can get there is to toss this chassis and build a true lay down A bike. I don't want to do that, by the time I got done they'd probably change the rules on me again.

[jimmy six]

ASW....Racer C did not get screwed because he never held the record to get it taken away. Your right about his timing, but if they still have the stuff they could come back and get it for real....

This has happened before many times with the cars. We go back as best we can to start giving back record to those who had them meeting the the new criteria. Others remind us of ones we missed and they are corrected.

 It is unfortunate when a record is taken away by moving the correct entry to it. It happened this year with Vance Breese and Wink Eller but correct is correct...Good Luck...

[k.h.]

Move M to A at this stage of "the game?"  Why not just put them in Guiness with the speed eaters, heaviest cabbage and the rest of the compendium of oddball acheivement?  Better yet, just put the 3000 pushrod record that needs protecting into the oddball records and let the competitive competition continue.

Earth to rulemakers:  Put the toothpaste back in the tube and the "problem" fixes itself.

[aswracing]

ASW....Racer C did not get screwed because he never held the record to get it taken away.

But he should've, that's my point. What've we all got to do, go to impound even if we don't set a record? "yeah, I know, it's under the record, but in the future it'll be good enough".

But we're kind of digressing, and covering old ground. The more pressing issue is whether or not they're really going to do this. It's awfully close to being time to go racing. Way too close to be waiting to find out what the class records are. People need to be able to plan what they're going to do and then have time to actually go do it.

As soon as there's a decision, will somebody please post it here?

[Dakin Engineering]

Aaron,
  I think got the plan.
Build multiple frames for both style engines.
Then be prepared to modify them on a months's notice.
You can test your new designs at Speedweek, no sweat.

It'll take me a bit more time for the next one,
But the rules will change, again, before I get there.
See ya in 2-3 years..........

Sam

[bbb]

Some M records will be thrown out, because they were done with aftermarket cases but they're slower than the existing A record. Is that fair to the people who set those records in M?

not to take anything away from anyone, but... ( in my best Jack Dolan mindset) are the M records actually records if they were set with cases not intended for the class?

[aswracing]

All interesting discussion for sure, but ...

It's TWO MONTHS until racing. What are the records for M and A? Does anybody know?

Has it occurred to any of these people at SCTA/BNI that people need to be preparing their bikes? And knowledge of the cutrrent records just might be an important piece of information?

[Nortonist 592]

If the M records are moved to A should we bring Herb Alpert into this mess to sort it out?  After all he owned A&M records for a long time.  Sorry, I should be serious.  Looking at the rule book, the 1000cc A/PG record is 146.641.  The M/PG record is 146.675.  1350cc A/PG 163.854, M/PG 167.056.  1650cc A/PG 168.382, M/PG 178.387.  2000cc A/PG 165.496, M/PG 171.687.  It seems to me that if you have an S&S "Harley" that has been dumped from M into A, you guys should be laughing.

[JackD]

The 600cc records were AMA and remained with them when SCTA began running the bike program in 1979.
Don Vesco never mentioned any of that to me over the 50+ years I knew him. Perhaps they were AMA class A.

The over riding stupid is the rule and the inability to manage it if it was valid.
 With no documentation and the invalid purpose it is really screwed up.
A car can run after market cases or and engine swap but the continuing insanity of the bike rules defies logic.
The last time the bike rules were screwed into the ground and only after publication in the book
did the firestorm cause the whole list of changes be withdrawn.
It would be a real laffer if it were not so sad.
We are at that point again.

"We know that communication is a problem, but SCTA
is not going to discuss it with the members or anybody else."

Am I being too harsh ?

[landracing]

Aaron,

I would assume right now, as of this time, the records are staying put where they are at for this year... I think its to late in the season for them to start moving records... When they tell us that they are working on it, doesnt mean they will have a solution within the next 1-2 years.. or 5 years, who knows... I'm sure that is going to be a hard  the task at hand..

I think they need to fix rules before records...

Jon

[JackD]

"This project is so important we can't let things that are more important interfere with it."

[aswracing]

It seems to me that if you have an S&S "Harley" that has been dumped from M into A, you guys should be laughing.

Why? Because a solid "M" record is being converted into a soft "A" record? No thanks, I'd rather have a good record than a soft one. To set a strong "A" record, I have to build a new bike.

BTW, that 167mph M-PG record you mentioned ... we ran that bike in '03 in the fuel class, on gasoline, and ran 166.9 and set a soft record. I got the bike home and discovered we had cracked the cases, from one cylinder stud down to the timing plug and back up to another cylinder stud. I replaced them, and we went out in '04 and ran against the gas record. We literally made only 2 passes on it, a qualifying pass and a backup pass, and set the 167 record you mention. After the backup pass we noticed a crack in that exact same spot.

The following year (last year), we wanted to bump up the soft fuel class record we had set in '03, by adding some nitrous. Obviously the cases weren't going to hold the additional power, they weren't even holding the power we were making on gasoline. So last summer I did the logical thing, I shelled out a couple grand for a set of S&S cases. Got it all together, tuned perfectly, ready to go obliterate our old record, and the events were all rained out.

Next thing I hear, S&S cases won't be allowed in "M" anymore.

Well Fiat me, thanks a bunch for the advance warning on that!

This is a Buell S1, a short, tall bike. There ain't no way in hell I'm going to get this chassis to the 199mph A-PG record. By my calculations, as it sits it'd need in excess of 230hp to do that. I know how to make 230hp, but a 1350cc Harley motor becomes an expensive, high maintenance deal at that level. The only realistic thing to do is to make a lay down bike out of it. New chassis.

So the bottom line is that they obsoleted the bike before I got to race it. It's now a Bub's-event only bike, unless and until I do a new chassis. I'm sure you can understand how I'm a little reluctant to go spend thousands more to do that, given the way this sanctioning body makes rule changes.

They need some kind of a review and comment period if they're going to make radical class changes like this. They costed me a big pile of money and time.

[Salty Blaster]

=D>  =D>  =D>  =D>  =D>

I 100% agree!

Give 'em hell man!