New Thread.....Same Stuff....

[Sumner]

Sum, I have two questions for you: why would you not want all the input available?  Do you really believe that any one rule change or clarification would generate hundreds of requests or input?  Over statement is a two way street, and personally I think that more is better.  As usual, only my opinion (done with little or no input from others)...........

Bob I thought I would start a new post on this and separate it out of the other one.  Hope you don't mind.

To answer your question, no "one rule" change probably wouldn't generate hundreds of requests and two I think input is good.  The question is in what form and under what procedures.

I think it is good for all of us to hash this stuff out on this board, but I don't think it is reasonable to expect SCTA-BNI board members to read all of this and make decissions based on our thoughts here in posts that go on and on.

There are a handful of us on here that are comfortable with this format and sending things back and forth in e-mails.  There is a much larger group that lurks on the site and for whatever reason don't feel comfortable making public comments, which is fine.  I also don't feel we can expect those in charge of decision making to make decissions based on what is posted here.  Sure they have the option of reading it and deciding if it has merit and thus it might influence them.

I'd like to quote some of what is on the SCTA site, with some omissions:

The SCTA-BNI is an all volunteer organization comprised of 12 individual clubs.  We endeavor to answer the phones, answer your questions and ship your orders as soon as possible.  However, please bear with us, we are not a business for profit.  All of our officers and staff are unpaid.  Our merchandise sales profits go toward offsetting our overhead and event costs.  We're in it for the fun of it, and hope you are too.

If we want to race at B'ville or El Mirage we are agreeing to the fact that we are basically "quests" of an organization that is comprised of 12 individual clubs.  Sure I'm a BNI member like you, but:

Being a member of BNI is akin to joining the discount club at a store IE:  by joining and helping to support the cause, it gives you the right to participate in the event(s).

So unless we join a member club we agree to have no voice.  Of course (and I am not suggesting we do this) one could form another organization or privately rent the salt and put on an event with entirely different or similar rules.

The Parent Corporation is the SCTA, a non-profit volunteer organization.  We have only one paid employee; she runs the SCTA/BNI office.  Five officers of the SCTA board (President, Vice President, Secretary, Treasurer and Sgt. at Arms) are nominated by the membership of the association and elected by ballots mailed to all SCTA members annually.  Those five elected officers appoint the rest of the board members from those of the general membership that are willing to serve.

To be an SCTA member, one must be a member of one of the affiliated clubs.  Each club is entitled to club representatives according to club size and they represent the clubs at the reps/board meetings.  All of the rules, policies, etc. are adopted by SCTA board vote. The rep. system advises the board as to the feelings of the clubs / club members. The only thing the SCTA general membership votes on is officers and bylaw changes.

The BNI is a separate corporation under SCTA board control with their own bylaws and subordinate board.  The BNI is charged with the responsibility of planning and organizing the Salt events and those logistic matters pertaining.  The BNI organizes Bonneville events and then hands the reins over to the SCTA, who conducts the event under their rules.

The SCTA board appoints the BNI officers; all must be SCTA board members and they choose who will serve in what capacity amongst themselves.  All decisions made by the BNI board are done by consensus.  The BNI makes neither rules nor policy; this is all done by the SCTA board.

In some ways, at least to me, this seems to be a multilayer-ed organization where a lot of trust is given to a chosen few.  Sometimes this doesn't look so democratic, but it often is the most efficient means of accomplishing something and seems to be how many organizations work.  Most times there are a few who do the real work and the rest don't really want to get involved, but are there when needed to make an event happen.  The important thing is that it must be working as the clubs still support the total concept of the SCTA-BNI organization.

I couldn't find it on their site (doesn't mean it isn't there), but from post on here is sounds like there is a procedure to follow if one is interested in addressing rules in effect or rule changes.  To be in a position to implement change though it appears you have to be at least a member of one of the clubs.  Since some of them take "long distance" members it seem like if we really want to present input we should take that approach and join a club.

If one really wants to change something then post on here, throw ideas around, but in the end you need to write down in a clear concise form what you are trying to get added or changed and present it to the appropriate person/persons.  The post on here about the new motorcycle rules has resulted in dozens of post, thousands of views, but has anyone actually (and Dan I believe has asked for this) written up an alternate to the rules and submitted them.

As I've said before I think that it would be reasonable to have non-safety related items presented 2-3 years before implementation to assure time for input (via the proper channels) and to give Bob and me a chance to join a club   .  Of course I guess I don't believe in this strong enough at this time to have followed my own advice and presented it to SCTA, just mouthed off about it here .

c ya, Sum

[Glen]

Anyone can submit a request for a rule change. It has to be put on the form supplied by them (SCTA_BNI). It will be looked at and considered or not depending on the issue.

The purpose of the form is so everyone uses the same format. Over the years I sat in many meetings and some one raises their hand and wants a rule change. Often it is now from a club and it's 3rd party and the original purpose has been lost in the translation. The form in a necessary evil but it's part of the system and how to correctly do things, slow but a document that is an official piece of paper and has to be dealt with.
Glen  

[Bob Drury]

Sum, First of all, we are on the same side, only our opinions vary.  I have never suggested that Dan or any one else glean their information from this or any other site.  What Glen says is correct, there are proper procedures to be followed for any rule change.  My interpretation of what Dan said is that said the SCTA would be beseached with requests, and I really don't think that is a accurate statement.  First of all, we all know what the rules are if we build a car or bike for a class, the problems occur when the rules (or classes) are later changed for what ever reason.  I think that most requests would be in that general area.  Second of all, if the SCTA is run as most organizations are, the person at the top of the tree, who in this case is Dan, should not have to deal with any of these proposals until he reviews the rules committees findings.  If, however, he wants to get involved earlier, that is up to his discression.  As I suggested in my post yesterday, I believe the people in charge of each classification should be the ones who looks into ALL information presented both for and against any rule changes.  He should then present his findings to the rules committee with his recomendation.  Then and only then, should Dan need to become directly involved.  I believe that if these rules are followed, no one person would or should be overwhelmed with a never ending pile of correspondence.  Once again, I would never want the posts from this or any other site to be quoted as testimony.  A lot said on here is meant in jest, or in the heat of the moment.  I do want to re-emphasize, however, how important it is that the rule makers be given as much information about the subject as is pertanent to understanding the reason for the request.

[Stan Back]

As an aside (motorcycles not withstanding), a lot of "Rules Questions" on this site have been, such as, "I built a 38 Nash with an Allison in the back seat that I drive to church on Sunday and now I want to enter it at Bonneville and only run under 100 miles per hour and can't understand why you don't have a class for my convenience.  What?  I should buy a rule book?"

[Glen]

As I said I was on the board for several years. One thing everyone must consider is there are two meetings a month, the board meeting and the club reps. The request for any rule change, punishment, changes to the bylaws, El Mirage operating procedures, and safety issues. This is very time consuming and can take several meetings to resolve yea or nay.

The case of safety issues move a lot faster and in some cases for what ever reason can cause a disruption including putting a class on hold until the corrections are made. In most cases it takes at least 4 meetings and this allows the clubs to take it back to their meetings for their input.

Again they are all volunteers and many travel up to 100 miles after work on Friday nights to attend   and that's not an easy task in So. Cal. Believe me the association wants to move as fast as they can but it's not always possible
to do.

Just give them a chance to look into any changes. They are restricted to the procedures of the Bylaws.

Safety is always the biggest issue in changes and chassis and mfg's. are invited to assure they do it correctly. Fair enough gang.
Glen

[edweldon]

I like the rule book pretty much the way it is.  It works. It still fits in my back pocket even with all the pages for records and sponsors.   Detailed enough to be an excellent guide; but not perfect.  

Anything we might do guided by a reading of the "book" has a finite chance of not running when some "official" comes up with different interpretation.  This imperfection creates the very need for the official to make a call in an unanticipated set of circumstances.

But let's suppose for a minute that the rule book had 10 times more rules.  So many that the officials simply would not make the calls when they were needed.  How many more racers would want to sit on the sidelines because the "no" answer would take 6 months to run through some formal appeal process?

Now let's take a look at the SCTA officials who have to occasionally make these judgment calls.  In our USA culture we've become hypersensitive to bias and conflict of interest.
1.  Fact--in our landspeed racing subculture we more often than not will extend an offer of help to a competitor trying to break our own record.  How often do you see that in other fields of endeavor?
2.  Fact -- none of our officials receive any paycheck beyond limited compensation for expenses directly related to putting on the meets.
3.  Few if any of our officials make any part of their living from doing business with landspeed racers.
4.  The vast majority of our officials are grownups, some deep into retirement.  They?ve climbed their mountains.  They really don't need to stoke their egos with dominating an argument over some technicality in the rulebook.
5.  The depth of experience in our SCTA/BNI volunteer officials is staggering.  Take a look at NHRA for comparison.

I could list more here; but you get the point.  I welcome people like this to be "judge and jury" over my interpretation of the imperfect rule book.

A few years back I came up with what I thought was a great idea for several new classes.  I ran it up the mast several times.  In the end analysis there was precious little support for it.  And I don't think it would do much better today.  Point is, what I thought was great did not pass muster with a larger group.

Now we have these internet websites that offer wonderful forums for kicking around proposals for rules changes and getting inputs from interested participants.  We should do everything we can to invite as many group members and visitors to offer opinions on these subjects that provide the functional framework of our sport.  I am 100 percent confident that any proposal launched into the formal SCTA rule book change process with the demonstrated support of numbers of landspeed racers will be fully considered by the officials?????????..Ed Weldon

[edweldon]

I like the rule book pretty much the way it is.  It works. ..........  I am 100 percent confident that any proposal launched into the formal SCTA rule book change process with the demonstrated support of numbers of landspeed racers will be fully considered by the officials?????????..Ed Weldon

Am I being na?ve here?  I just looked through the "The blind leading the deaf." thread?????or is it just that "democracy is always messy"  ?

Ed Weldon

[Bob Drury]

Ed, that was a very eloquent statement.  The problem we have seems to be getting many of the "old guard" to share with us on this site.  I have personally stood up at the NW reunion banquet to extoll the virtues of this site, as have others, including Glen.  To date, some two years later, I have only seen one new post from that group of 100 at the event.  Most in attendance were veteran LSR folks.  How do we get the message to people that we not only want their comments, but their wisdom from years and years of racing.  Jon was good enough to put this site together so that we could all share, argue, laugh, and most of all learn how to keep our sport strong and healthy.  It is a damn shame that our contributor base is so small.  I am sure some tire of seeing posts from myself, or Dolan, or anyone else, but in truth, there are only about a dozen or so of us who seem to follow and contribute, whether right or wrong.  Again, thanx for your insight..................

[JackD]

You guys are pretty close.
If nothing else it should make you think and I would hope it does.
Some things will help you know and others will help with what you don't know.
Reading comprehension that includes reading between the lines will be the most valuable.
More people read it than will admit it and the World of volunteers is not as pure hearted as one would hope.
They get individually pissed about individual stuff but the strength will be measured by their return.
It is OK to scream once in a while.
Welcome to the future of communication.

"Relax, We will keep the light on."

So who is gonna tell Glen they formally meet only once a month now ?
Not me !!!

[dwarner]

Sum,

Going back to your excellent first post to this thread.

The rule change procedure is outlined in the last paragraph of page 1 in the rule book.

The reason we don't make available a change form on the website is that we want our involved racers to be the ones suggesting changes. If the form was available to the non-racing public the thinking is that we would have many suggestions that don't apply to what we do. Who better than you guys to know what is needed? The prop guy?

DW

[JackD]

So tell me again how you keep a form out of the Plopster's hands ?
He can join BNI like everybody else and call himself a racer too. Are the rule changes limited to SCTA members only ?
Can he get somebody to speak for him ?
For every likely solution their are people working to get around them.
It is gonna be a tough job.

[dwarner]

Plopster was a simple sample. JackD may have been a better choice.

DW

[Bob Drury]

ARRRGH!  Right thru the heart.......................

[JackD]

fall on your sword to make your point.

"An offense is not always defensible."