Author Topic: Please explain this....  (Read 10026 times)

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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Please explain this....
« on: February 28, 2013, 07:22:05 PM »


I have seen many 'internet experts' say that removing the cats can lower HP on an OEM vehicle. I have also seen a lot of post where people say you will loose all of your low end torque by going too large in exhaust after the headers.

Is this true? Would this also apply to an OEM vehicle with aftermarket SC?

-I am asking because I have a vehicle that sees some track use, is supercharged (aftermarket) and 2 SETS of cats (4 total) from the factory.
-The ECU is locked and no way of AFR tuning, the ECU is reprogrammed to accommodate the SC. 
-My cats are shot and need to be replaced or punched. <NOTE* an aftermarket O2 load device is made that allows removal of the cats for off road use.

What is the best option??? Blow the cats out and run the O2 sims? Get 'high flow' cats (always thought they were snake oil)? I dont want to hear any 'federal smog blah', I know.

~JH

 

jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 07:34:31 PM »
JH, do you mind if I tag along and ask another "Please explain this" question?  Tell me to scram and start my own if you want to do so, but my query is sorta like yours, having to do with the exhaust system.

Oh, forgive my ignorance, one and all -- but why am I told that removing the muffler or such from my Duramax turbo diesel engine will affect performance/economy adversely?  I'm told that the turbo needs (repeat NEEDS) some back pressure to work right.  Why is that?  Thanks.  I removed the muffler from my '04 Duramax with no ill effects - and got good mileage with it, too.  Is this another federal smog/county noise rule, too?
Jon E. Wennerberg
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Offline Jonny Hotnuts

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 07:53:43 PM »
Ask away SSS!

Truth be known I have seen so much contradictory info about exhaust, back pressures and so I dont know whats real and whats BS.

-For some reason I have a feeling that some people on this forum will have an opinion on the mater.

~JH
jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline Glen

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 08:00:22 PM »
Slim, there is a duramax diesel web site with tons of info.
Glen
Crew on Turbinator II

South West, Utah

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 08:18:16 PM »
  So here is my take on current Race Motor Technowledgy (sp.?), and hopefully Dyno, Paul or someone else who "actually" works with a Dyno... ( not another Theorist for Christ's sake) will chime in.
  It has to do with the same reason that Today's OEM motors have rather small exhaust ports.
  Exhaust backpressure  causes resonating pulses which helps draw the exhaust gasses out of the cylinder while at the same time helping draw the intake fuel charge into the cylinder and which helps create a more efficient (and thus) powerfull engine.
  It completly goes against what we all did with our 1970's Small block Chevy's when we all hogged them out to match the header flanges.
  Reher Morrison advises that your Headers be larger than the exhaust ports to help this reversion, and some Brodix Heads come with a D shaped Port for the same reason.
                                                                                                                   Bob (Who really doesn't know shit.............)
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Offline Seldom Seen Slim

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 08:37:42 PM »
IN response to Bob:  But I've got a turbo, and that little (?) hair dryer would seem to dampen any pulses moving from cylinder to exhaust pipe - - wouldn't it?

And for you, Glen -- I expect that I could dig and find the answer to my question, but part of it is posed in my response here to Bob -- that I've heard this story about all turbo-ed motors.

I'm very happy with the Duramax -- you've had one, Glen, and know that it's a pretty good engine.  I don't know if digging into the Duramax forum would yield results as fast as I expect to find 'em here.

Thanks again, gentlemen.
Jon E. Wennerberg
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 Skandia, Michigan
 (that's way up north)
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Offline SPARKY

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 09:02:10 PM »
This is an semi educated, semi informed guess about NA engs  :-D

SORRY JH but it does have to do with emmisons to meet them the manufactures must absolutely have repeatability: the cyl charge must be repeatable and exactly the same every time for that load and rpm so the timming and fuel can be controled to achieve the desired results.

also semi educated, semi informed  :-o

With Turbos you do not want hardly any reversion if you want power under heavy boost because high exhaust pressure means the exhaust pours back into the cyl if the exhaust gas pressure is higher than the boost press--that is the reason some run as high LSA as 120+ degs in some applications---especially at the drag strip where they are running real small turbines trying to get them to spool up FAST!
Miss LIBERTY,  changing T.K.I.  to noise, dust, rust, BLUE HATS & hopefully not scrap!!

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Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 09:27:40 PM »
  I agree with both of you and if you notice a typical Blown Drag Race Motor, the exhaust ports and Headers are Huge.
  On the other hand, the Stock class racers use Step Headers with various length collectors, and the Pro Stock motors use a four to two merge with a "choke" reducing taper which then immediatly reverses itself to a larger collecter.  This is probably the most acurate definition of "reversion/pulse flow exhaust management.
  Obviously there are many other factors involved, such as ignition timing, camshaft duration and overlap, etc.
  What you have to remember is that in most engines, not 100% of the fuel charge gets burnt up in the combustion cylinder and actually burns in the exhaust.
  That is why you can reveiw  data from a previous pass and see EGT temps that exceed the melting point of your aluminum pistons, yet a leak down test and reading the spark plugs show no sign of melting the piston crowns.
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Bob Drury

Offline jacksoni

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »
If your ECU is reprogrammed for the supercharger, it must have done something to the AFR's so why is it "locked" and you cant mess with it further. Get a Mega squirt. :-)
Jack Iliff
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Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2013, 12:37:25 AM »
The first thing street cars have to do is light the cat fast, from cold start.  Put them close to the ports and use the thinnest stainless headers you can (so you dont lose calories on your way to lighting the cat).

Second thing you need is the smallest cat you can get away with, because it must stay lit at no load and lots of idling in traffic.  Big cats cost big money and wont stay lit.

Forget the exhaust tuning (the old methods) because you need to close the exhaust valve too early to fully scavenge.  That will save a nice chunk of money in egr engineering....some engines can run without external egr with this method.

Keep the exhaust port size down, because you are going to run this thing right on 14.7:1 as much as possible.  If you get the compression up, the mix perfect, and the burn late enough but still fast...there wont be much exhaust to get out, most of the time.  In fact, you'll be building the pressure so perfectly timed that you will need insulators in the lower waterjacket area to keep the last of the expansion from the combustion event...this is getting common for bigger engines.  Remember, make the power at lower rpm and the exhaust volume shrinks plenty quick.

Now take the throttle away from the driver.  He can offer his opinion with the right foot, the ecu will take it under advisement, and decide how much and when he gets actual throttle opening.  You can see this for yourself.  Connect a CARB OBD II scantool using the non-oem datalist, graph the throttle angle sensor, rpm, and throttle position sensor.  Go for a drive, come back laughing.

Ok...so now that little cat is almost staying alive.  Better take gearshifts away from the driver.  That way the ecu can decide how much exhaust actually goes through that smaller, cost efficient cat. Slow down the engine, most of the time, and the warranty costs goes down with it.

In a most difficult case, like...say... Big engine pulling hard?  Discontinue the manual trans option.  This is really important if you think the driver may use downshifting decel often.  Everytime he blips the throttle and grabs a downshift, the air fuel ratio passes through 15:1 on the way to fuel cut.  15:1 is the fastest heat build a/f for the cat.  Do this very much and the cat is burn-out and warranty cost go up.  Just to break him of that bad habit...since you have control of the throttle and he dont....hang the rpm up a ways when he does that part throttle "blip downshift".  It feeds some cooling to the cat...decided by the ecu...and gets the driver out of that driving mode because it dont feel right.

The bigger and more poweful the engine, the more gears you need in that automatic transmission, to deal with that carefully sized cat.  And now you know why big M-B and Lexus, etc need 8 speed automatics.

Turbos are real touchy, because if you let the turbo get cold, you have a hard time relighting the cat.  When I worked on the Turbo Highlander Hybrid project, that is what killed us in the end.  By running the turbo off only the forward three cylinder (1-2-3-4-5-6 firing order), we could easily spool the turbo and almost keep the subcat lit on a downgrade.  Almost.  Remember, hyrbrids STOP the engine on decel and that turbo is cooling off.  3-4 seconds for a relite (on a op temp engine) does not fly with CARB or EPA.  That was a bummer, because the combination of rapid spool and instant elec motor torque was pretty fun and real eye opening.  We spent some time with Borg-Warner talking after cat turbos, but nobody was going to buy off on this program and it was "done in one".

This is where my experience ends.  I dont know the method that make the new turbo cars compliant.  We get old, put out to pasture, and shuffle to the barn.  I think you can see why removing cats can take down driveability...the ecu looks AFTER the cats, as well as before, and will do its best to stay compliant while protecting the wide band a/f sensors from water droplet cracking from too rich mixtures.

This whole thing is a LOT more than reflash, headers, etc.  Entire design is tied to that stock cat.

Sorry I rambled on...its the same story I had to tell my friends at C&D when they dropped by the shop to ask me how they ruined the cat on a pre-release Miata playing on Angeles Crest all day.  Its a brave new world, aint it?  Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:

Regards, JimL
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:01:48 AM by JimL »

Offline Bob Drury

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2013, 01:00:12 AM »
  Jim, thanx for chimeing in. Even if I don't fully understand your explaination, it's great that someone with practical experience helps those of without a clue to at least learn the basics of how a cat works on todays engines.
  Hell, I am still trying to lean out my carberator on my 72 Maverick so the exhaust tips don't look like I am burning coal...................
Bob Drury

Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2013, 01:06:21 AM »
Bob...I know how to fix that!

Run leaded gas....thatll fix it. :cheers:  no more sooty looking exhaust.

Thats the truth, by the way.  I was a tech in Colorado when unleaded came around.  Folks there were dialed in to that high altitude tuning need, and they were accusing me of tuning their cars wrong because the end of the tailpipe turned black.

Some people just would not believe it was the gasoline.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:09:19 AM by JimL »

Offline Peter Jack

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2013, 01:47:33 AM »
 Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:

But he sure was entertaining to read while he was still around!  :-D :-D :-D

Let the younger guys figure that one out!

Pete

Offline JimL

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2013, 01:51:05 AM »
JH...I better mention...I dont know what your car is, but if its a factory supported SC kit with reflash there may be some big compromises made in the flash.  For example, I have seen manual trans kits programmed to kill variable valve timing with a supercharger.  By running at fixed position, the pumping capacity of the engine is reduced (no intake valve timing advance in mid-range) and the customer sees what look like nice numbers on the boost gauge.  The intake valves are opened late so that boost doesnt actually get to the cylinders and thence the cats.  You can make nice looking boost gauge readings when the valves dont open, with a smaller pump.

Another trick is to use code lines in the warmup tables that will start mathematically ramping the temp sensor reading at about 145-150 degrees.  The formula unwinds the add-on as the temp gets up toward 200-210, so that engine protection logic still works.  This method takes the engine quickly through the remaining enrichment range, after cold start, because the blower has the potential to make a lot more hot exhaust during that transition.  The other reason, is that the head and bore temps jump faster than normal, against the coolant temp, during that transiion (with a blower).  I was pretty proud of that solution...wrote it by my own self. 8-). Dont get excited...I only wrote small routines, I wasnt allowed access to the adder and timing tables.  If we ever get together live, I can tell you a fun story how that programming is done.  First, you start with boxes and boxes of brand new spare catalytic convertors, and an engine dyno, and a dumpster.....and then....

Depending on who wrote the code, there may be double-tap on the spark!  Sometimes this helps prevent false misfire detection, sometimes it causes misfire.  I know an ex-Ford programmer who was fond of this, and we went around the ring a few times on one of the projects I was involved with.  He put it in our flash, without asking, and when the misfire popped up I said "what did you change?". So we get it out, engines running good....about a week later its misfiring again.  He had put it back in, without asking!

One very big problem with SC kits is calibrating for lower throttle opening.  Normally, beyond a certain position of the throttle the ecu will go to "openloop-drive" or straight "openloop."  With a blower, you can climb that long grade at pretty high horsepower, with the throttle back in closed loop position.  This means the engine is forced to make a lot of power at 14.7:1 air fuel ratio.  In open loop it would be allowed clear down to 10:1 if needed!  Guess what happens to the cat at 14.7:1 a/f making equivalent power of an unblown engine at 10-12:1 a/f ratio?  Remember..15:1 is the worst point for cat, and it gets cooler in both directions (rich or lean) like a a piramid shape.  Edit....meant to say the graph line looks like a pyramid.

Now you know why the cats are gone....and why there is no permanent fix for this setup.

This is just so complicated.  We used to say, "the problem with these modified cars, is that they are suffering from improvement."

Gotta stop now...this is turning into a bad flashback, and I am RETIRED!
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 03:01:35 AM by JimL »

Offline Graham in Aus

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Re: Please explain this....
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 05:12:42 AM »
 Tom McCahill is turning over in his grave. :cry:
Let the younger guys figure that one out!

Pete

OK I googled....., quite the boy old McCahill !

http://www.joesherlock.com/Tom-McCahill.html

Interestingly; given the other thread about Crosleys as Comp Coupes....