2013 Changes to Hooley's 974 Studebaker

[WZ JUNK]

Wow! That's a helluva wing!

How did you go about calculating the down force needed, or the amount of down force this wing can generate? It seems to me, that too much down force will add to drag, and also will/may add too much 'weight' to the tires.

Can you explain the process to those of us with little understanding of the principles behind this?

Car looks wicked!

Buddy,  the picture is misleading, the wing will be nearly neutral.  They are making a gauge to adjust the wing once the car is finished.

John

[Sumner]

....How did you go about calculating the down force needed, or the amount of down force this wing can generate? It seems to me, that too much down force will add to drag, and also will/may add too much 'weight' to the tires....

As John stated the wing in that position would be the extreme and not likely to happen and you are right trying to calculate the downforce of a wing is beyond us.  Not sure if you read the page or not but the wing isn't a wing in the more familiar sense of an airplane wing that is designed for lift or downforce if placed upside down.

Our wing is actually a helicopter blade, we don't know which helicopter, and .....



...is designed to be neutral as far as we know.  So if it is parallel to the ground and in free air, not close to the ground or the body of the car, it should produce no lift in that situation.  It produces lift or downforce by changing the angle of attack.  If we used a normal wing shape, not neutral, then more knowledge would sure be needed.  I'm hoping that we are also taking the old trunk lid with the spoiler that has been used attached just in case we think we need to revert back to it at SW.

You are also correct in that anytime you are creating downforce or have the wing and the vertical stabilizers in the air you are creating more drag.  We hope to have more HP  .  Also we feel that in order to have the traction to deal with the higher HP and speeds we would need more rear weight in the car which would also mean more nose weight to keep the Center of Pressure ahead of the Center of gravity.  The car weighs 6000 now to do that or close to it.  More weight would hurt acceleration that is also needed at higher speeds.  The wing if it works will help a lot with the Center of Pressure and with putting more force on the drive tires.  So it might offset the drag penalty, but the key is we still need more HP than we have had to go faster than the 253 the car has run.

On our low speed runs working up in speed we will start with it very slightly up hoping to produce a small amount of downforce at first and try to stay away from any lift.  We had hope to find a smaller helicopter blade, but have had no luck there.  Some blades have to be replaced after so many hours and others can be reconditioned/re-certified as we understand it.

Mark made an inclinometer to use in adjusting it, pictures later when I get it.  He also made some rods with rubber o-rings on them that we hope to mount on the car on all 4 corners that will give us a record of how far the suspension is compressed or if it lifts.  Knowing spring rates and using these might give us some crude downforce data.

Hooley also wants to change the front of the car to a straight axle for 2014,

Sum

[RichFox]

It has always been my understanding that Helicopter blades are wings. Just not fixed wings but rotating ones. If they don't provide lift, how do helicopters fly? Beyond that, This is really some deal. Must be a new record for racy looking Studebakers, at least. Looking foward to seeing it run.

[38flattie]

John, Sumner-thanks for the info!

I did read the post, but knowing those involved, I was pretty sure there was a little' more too it than was posted!

I'm curious, and anxious for you guys to get the bugs worked out of it and get some data. I'm not above 'borrowing ideas that work!

[Tman]

Looks like some Trackmaster Spl influence?

[hotrod]

The wing section of a helicopter blade is no different than a standard wing, it just has no camber, so its neutral lift angle of attack is 0 degrees.
A cambered wing can also have zero lift but the angle of attack will be different to cancel out the effect of the camber (and it will have more drag at zero lift).

The helicopter blade achieves lift by changing its angle of attack.

Lift depends on both the angle of attack and the wing camber.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/Wright/airplane/shape.html

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/Wright/airplane/incline.html

Larry

[manta22]

Sum;

Are you planning to put a wing profile on your vertical stabilizer? If not, consider the drag difference you'd have with an aerodynamic vertical stabilizer vs a flat rectangular section. A little shaped balsa wood fastened to the leading & trailing edges would lower drag significantly.

Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

[Rex Schimmer]

Sum,
It looks like your blade or wing or what ever has a balsa wood core but is the skin aluminum or composite? Anyway you might want to make provisions to be able to put a "wicker bill" or Gurney flap, what ever you would like to call it, on the wings trailing edge, it effectively adds camber to the wing and it will allow you to run a larger angle of attack before the wing stalls, plus they don't add much drag.

Looking forward to seeing you at the salt.

Rex

[Sumner]

...Are you planning to put a wing profile on your vertical stabilizer?....Regards, Neil  Tucson, AZ

That is my plan.  We had hoped to of made the verticals in a full neutral airfoil shape but for now will have to settle on just working with the leading and trailing edges as you mentioned.  Another one of those 'don't have enough time deals' 

Sum

[Sumner]

Sum,
It looks like your blade or wing or what ever has a balsa wood core but is the skin aluminum or composite? Anyway you might want to make provisions to be able to put a "wicker bill" or Gurney flap, what ever you would like to call it, on the wings trailing edge, it effectively adds camber to the wing and it will allow you to run a larger angle of attack before the wing stalls, plus they don't add much drag.

Looking forward to seeing you at the salt.

Rex

The core isn't balsa, some kind of hard wood and it does have a composite skin.  Again we still have a ton to do in the next 2 weeks, so what we have now is what we will be going with this year.  I still have to cover the verticals and have just started on the ice water intercooler tanks and Hooley and John both still have lots to do.  If we make it, and we sure hope to,  it will be a real accomplishment.  Hooley has spent an enormous amount of time on the car since the first of the year. 

TurboSmart is helping to sponsor the car and I just received the e-Boost2 boost controller today from them.  Marty there and Gordon at Superiorairflow.com (carb hat and C & S Blow thru carb)have been a big help to us and will be advising us via phone on the salt with tuning help, which we will for sure need.

Looking forward to seeing you also and others,

Sum

[jl222]

Wow! That's a helluva wing!

How did you go about calculating the down force needed, or the amount of down force this wing can generate? It seems to me, that too much down force will add to drag, and also will/may add too much 'weight' to the tires.

Can you explain the process to those of us with little understanding of the principles behind this?

Car looks wicked!

 Wing specs for competition coupes need to be rewritten to allow normal height above deck lit instead of 6'' above
highest part of body.

  keep the height limit but allow lower mounting so these giant towers don't have to be erected.

  It worries me about no specs for mounting these high wings.

          JL222

   JL222
 

[Sumner]

.... Wing specs for competition coupes need to be rewritten to allow normal height above deck lit instead of 6'' above
highest part of body.

  keep the height limit but allow lower mounting so these giant towers don't have to be erected.

  It worries me about no specs for mounting these high wings...          JL222

The height doesn't bother me that much as we are looking for the increased benefits it has on Center of Pressure, but having one overall height for any and all cars should maybe reconsidered.  A more even playing field might be something like no more than 12 inches higher than the highest point on the vehicle and no lower limit and do away with the 6 inches above the highest point that you mentioned.

That would allow a lower wing surface if so desired and would keep things pretty much the same regardless of car height so a lower car would be in the same situation as a taller car as the wing would be in proportion to the individual car's height not one set height.  Hooley's car is pretty low but it would be harder to get say a 30's comp coupe that low and they might actually have problems being within the current ruling.

The new ruling does have the benefit of making the cars safer as the speeds increase by helping with the Center of Pressure.  I think with current engine/blower/turbo technology 300+ mph speeds in the blown classes of comp coupe are within reason for engines as low as E and maybe even F,

Sum

[George Fields]

Nice work, I hope you get rewarded in return. The Comp Coupe wing specs were taken pretty much along the lines for the Modified Roadster wing specs, and also to be effective, it needs to be in the wind. If you want to change the rule to your specs, then do it, I am fine with what ever keeps these cars safe as the speeds increase. I know the wing saved my car in 2012 with the conditions of the course. A couple of other cars were not as lucky.
The "E" record is over three without a wing!
Good Luck
George

[Sumner]

Nice work, I hope you get rewarded in return. The Comp Coupe wing specs were taken pretty much along the lines for the Modified Roadster wing specs, and also to be effective, it needs to be in the wind. If you want to change the rule to your specs, then do it, I am fine with what ever keeps these cars safe as the speeds increase. I know the wing saved my car in 2012 with the conditions of the course. A couple of other cars were not as lucky.
The "E" record is over three without a wing!
Good Luck
George

Thanks George and I forgot you had that record with your 1/2 a V-8  .  Impressive!!  I think most of the gas records will also be up there soon.  

I agree that the wing/vertical stabilizers is a big safety factor and I wouldn't want the ruling to go backwards to less than what is possible under the rule now,

Sum

[Sumner]

I finally finished the rad-in-a-box and shipped it to Hooley Monday.  The final mods to it was....



... the addition of FyreWrap insulation to the motor side and...



and a panel to protect it and hold it in place.  It has a 2300 deg. F rating.

Then two....



..... 4 heat shields were put in place with....





...air gaps between them.

More pictures and info starts here....

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/Hooley%202013/13%20-%20hooley-construction-2013-18.html

Working on the intercooler ice water tank now.  Hooley and Ken finished the front body work and have removed it so they can pull the dummy motor and put the new one in.  I'll post some pictures when I get them from him.  John is working on rocker panels and an inlet for the scoop on the nose of the car in Missouri,

Sum