Author Topic: Weight Distrubition  (Read 15542 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thundersalt

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 928
    • www.americanrvservicecenter.com
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2012, 11:12:18 PM »
Our car weights around 4800lbs, approximately 35f-65r 2300rwhp and handles great with no rear tire spin in high gear on a dry surface.  Looks like results vary. :cheers:
Being a total smart azz here but does that recent photo oh the fresh bondo on the right door equate to "handles great".

You know I'm messing with you...........
916 REMR
2017 AA/FRMR Bonneville Record holder 234.663
2018 AA/GRMR El Mirage Record holder 223.108
2020 AA/BGRMR Bonneville Record holder 252.438
2021 AA/BGRMR Bonneville Record holder 262.685
El Mirage 200 MPH Club
Drivers/Owners: Brian & Celia Dean

Offline bvillercr

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2291
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2012, 01:51:03 AM »
Our car weights around 4800lbs, approximately 35f-65r 2300rwhp and handles great with no rear tire spin in high gear on a dry surface.  Looks like results vary. :cheers:
Being a total smart azz here but does that recent photo oh the fresh bondo on the right door equate to "handles great".

You know I'm messing with you...........

It should handle better now without the ripples down the side. :-D

Offline WZ JUNK

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 263
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2012, 07:16:19 AM »
I am not an engineer, so my thoughts are from some experience on the salt and from observations.  Hooley's Studebaker http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/hooley/hooley-index.html ran at top speed of about 219 mph without adding any weight for ballast but it did skate around a little.  When we tried to go faster, it would spin.  We nearly doubled the weight of the car with ballast and it went straight.  The car is slightly heavier on the front about 52/48 percent and total weight of just under 6000 pounds.  Most of the weight is down low in the belly pan but there are two stacks of weights just ahead of the rear wheels.  We used 1 inch steel plate because we had a cheap source, and lead is very expensive.   The added weight seemed to slow the acceleration but enabled us to obtain higher top speeds.  In our case, the car went much faster but it took longer to get to top speed.  I think weight is the key to speed on the salt but there are many other variables, and each car and class is different.  Talk to other people who race in your class and the classes similiar to yours.  Look for teams that are successful and see what they have done. 

Good luck.

John
Crew chief #974 B/BGCC 1953 Studebaker Past Bonneville record holder.

Offline jl222

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2963
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2012, 11:58:21 AM »
Our car weights around 4800lbs, approximately 35f-65r 2300rwhp and handles great with no rear tire spin in high gear on a dry surface.  Looks like results vary. :cheers:
Being a total smart azz here but does that recent photo oh the fresh bondo on the right door equate to "handles great".

You know I'm messing with you...........

  Celia could have saved it :-D but last year after I spun, when I picked up the chutes they were completly soaked wet
were they had dragged on the salt. It was very lightly sprinkling at start, just a few drops, but must have rained more between the 2 and 3 mile.

     JL222

PatMc

  • Guest
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #34 on: July 26, 2012, 03:45:13 PM »
I'm not sure if what follows is correct, but here's how I understand it:

When you spin roadracing or at the dragstrip, the rears lose traction, you apply the brakes or too much steering, and since most the traction is now in the front, rather than the rear, the car swaps ends if there is any rotational inertia.  The fix is not to brake or chop the throttle quickly.  This takes even more weight off the rear, and makes it easier to come around on you.

But LSR racing works on different physics?  Sure, you COULD spin like at the dragstrip, but that's not what's happening.  I doubt anyone is slamming the brakes when the rear breaks loose, or giving full violent steering.

What happens is the air pressure is pushing very hard on the front of car.  It could even be lifting it on some bodies.  Any side force can make the front tires exceed their traction limit, and once the air pushes the tires even a little sideways, the car acts like a wind vane, and spins, even if try to turn into the spin (countersteer).  The air is stronger than the traction at the front, so steering has no effect.  Kinda like locking your brakes.

Weight would certainly help.  Making sure the car doesn't generate front lift helps.  More traction helps.

Weight is a two edged sword - It can make traction, but it can cause more rolling resistance, high tire and frame loading, more force in an accident, etc.  It works, but has it's bad side.

Making the car not generate lift isn't always an option.  Rules can limit what you can do with the body and wings.

More traction (without adding weight) can be done two ways:
a)  More aggressive tires.  Problem is the more aggressive the tire is, the more bite it has if you do spin, hence increasing the bite might have serious consequences.
b)  Weight transfer.  If you hit the brakes, the weight moves on the front tires.  Try going into a corner too fast and get the front to understeer (plow).  Stab the brakes hard and watch what happens.  More front traction, less rear traction, and the car will follow your steering input again.

But this just my thoughts.  It would dangerous to test the theory at speed.  And you need lots of wind pressure to emulate the conditions.

The do make a system for this though.  It's a controlled outrigger system.  The instructor has 2 or 4 levers.  There is a "training wheel" at each corner than can push down hydraulically, and reduce the traction of either the front, or rear, all tires, (or one tire for some systems).

It would have to be put onto something that is light, yet aerodynamic like a brick.  Lots of frontal and side area.  This will make 60mph testing act like it's much faster.

You could also do it ghetto, by just having a moveable weight mounted aft of the rear axle, and on the lakebed, the driver goes 60mph on bald tires, then the instructor pushes the weight aft quickly, unloading the front tires.  The driver would react by gently steering into it while giving it some brake.  Too much brake?  Heck, you were going to spin anyhow.

If my understanding of LSR spins is correct, staying into the throttle (this works at the drags), is going to force the spin once it starts.

Or not. :?

« Last Edit: July 26, 2012, 03:48:42 PM by PatMc »

Offline Jonny Hotnuts

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1522
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #35 on: July 26, 2012, 08:40:17 PM »
This entire discussion is about COG/COP relationship and its affect on stability. The COP is the other side of the equation and will also change where you can get away with the COG.

You can get away with a center of pressure ahead of your center of gravity as long as the car never gets out of shape. Its funny that in the chaos of your butt is going through the 3 mile marker backwards over 200 (*like mine did) you will can reflect on weight distribution & center of pressure.
Note; Before the car stopped I was also able to reflect on the works of Sun Tzu, cooking times for a beef Wellington and how cotton candy is made although I am not sure what that has to do with LSR.

It is my suggestion that you determine you COP/COG. Get your COP behind your COG have just enough weight prevent your tires from breaking loose at your max speed and keep the weight as low as you can.

Also, for whatever its worth if you have your cars stance jacked up in the back and really low in front when your car spins it will also likely take flight.

~JH

jonny_hotnuts@hotmail.com

"Sometimes it is impossible to deal with her, but most of the time she is very sweet, and if you caress her properly she will sing beautifully."
*Andres Segovia
(when Im not working on the car, I am ususally playing classical guitar)

Offline jimmy six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2788
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2012, 01:42:27 AM »
This is way too hard on my brain...Just get a '32 Ford grille shell and go hang on after you run out of horsepower........"E" Ticket..JD
First GMC 6 powered Fuel roadster over 200, with 2 red hats. Pit crew for Patrick Tone's Super Stock #49 Camaro

Offline SCAATY

  • New folks
  • Posts: 7
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2012, 10:09:09 AM »
Front to rear COG is not too difficult , the height of Cog is a lot more difficult.  I have seen cam shaft centerline used quite a bit in these calculations.  Does that seem like a safe assumption for a LSR car?  I know that this effects the location of parachute mount.  With a four-link car will pushing the instant-center further forward help the car "hold on" to the salt?  Or over 200 is it all aero and weight?  Asking questions now seems better than spinning later!!  LOL!!
SCAATY
"Still Crazy After All These Years"

PatMc

  • Guest
Re: Weight Distrubition
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2012, 10:23:14 AM »
Front to rear COG is not too difficult , the height of Cog is a lot more difficult.  I have seen cam shaft centerline used quite a bit in these calculations.  Does that seem like a safe assumption for a LSR car?  I know that this effects the location of parachute mount.  With a four-link car will pushing the instant-center further forward help the car "hold on" to the salt?  Or over 200 is it all aero and weight?  Asking questions now seems better than spinning later!!  LOL!!

I've only run a few dozen passes in the dirt and salt.  I'm certainly no expert.

Instinct tells me to stay in the throttle when I feel a spin starting, but perhaps for LSR instinct makes it worse, not better.  You have little compression brakes in high gear, so lifting would not shift a lot of weight to the nose, braking might, but who's going to find out?  Not me.  I just put 2 tons on the front and 3000 in the back and call it a day.  It's not the weight bias, it's shear freakin' weight.