Can I get away with this?????

[fastman614]

In both of our cars, we run electric pumps that continue to circulate water after the engine is shut off after a "normal" run- thus eliminating (or vastly lessening, anyway) the inevitable temperature rise of most, if not all, water cooled engines after the engine is shut down.

We also run data recorders....and we do NOT kill the power to the data recorders at the end of a normal run. BTW, ALL of our engine power is fused and relay controlled - with another separate relay and fuse for the water pumps.

The emergency shutoff switch WILL kill everything and I believe it WILL result in the loss of ALL of the data in the data recorder (although the data IS being written to a SDHC card - as used in a camera, so i am not really sure if the data would be lost or not)..... BUT - It would only be shut off in an emergency - correct?!

[fastman614]

Something for clarification, no doubt.
From other forms of racing, the master switch is to remove the battery(isolate) from the rest of the system AND kill the motor. magneto guys love this.

However, I have in the past done almost exactly what JHN wants to do by either supplying a small battery for the data recorder seperate or using a small .3 amp fused circuit to the DR. If a small fuse is used and placed as close to the master switch or on it the argument could be made that it poses no threat.

I am not in agreement with the rules about having the switch mounted at the extreme end of the vehicle, if the battery is in the center then the length of wire is vulnerable to the switch. Should this wire become damaged in the incident, you have no way of isolating the battery from the damage. This is a very real concern because the wire is probably of enough size to carry a decent amp load to the starter and potentionally cause enough heat to cause burning or start something else burning.

The DR situation is easy, if need be add additional battery, NiCad from RC car works very well and doesn't need charging but once a weekend. As for the coolant pumps, my opinion is mechanical drive from motor, motor stops so does the water, except for leaks.

John

Here is an interesting point about this switch - and it is probably a topic that deserves its own forum.... I did NOT find anywhere in the relevant rules that the switch itself must be mounted at the rear of the car. I have a  SIX FOOT LONG LINKAGE from my switch to the rear of the car as I too firmly believe that I DID NOT AND DO NOT WANT a whole bunch of extra wire to the rear of the car and then back towards the middle of the car - as in 12' OR MORE.... PULLING the rod out toward the rear shuts off the switch .... the rod is on tension while being pulled - therefore it CANNOT DEFLECT.... (an issue that was brought up by an inspector - "the rod could bend" - my answer -"ONLY if the emergency crew tried to turn the power back on and it is NOT there for that reason - the clause says DISconnect - NOT - REconnect)).... hmmmm

.... and I too am an inspector.....

[Dean Los Angeles]

When the emergency crew reaches to shut off the main disconnect they should be touching the main disconnect.
The linkage could be damaged in a crash and not work. If it ain't there it can't break. I'm not buying your logic that it would work in all circumstances.

[johnneilson]

re-read the section on battery disconnect switches in rule book.
rod or cable operators are specifically mentioned.

IMO. if the car is damaged enough to damage the switch operator, it would damage the wire and then you really have a problem, until the battery dies.

J

[Stan Back]

The switches at the "extreme ends" of the vehicle work well in case of an incident.  Very few vehicles end up on their "extreme end".

[NathanStewart]

    The confusion comes from believing that the mandated battery disconnect is to shut the engine off after an accident. This is not true, the purpose is for the emergency crew to be able to render the vehicle electricly inert so that their susequent efforts don't cause sparks.

Honestly, the way the rule is written I don't see how anyone could really deduce what exactly the desired effect of having the switch is.  Books says you must have a main battery disconnect switch.... that's it.  Following some basic reasoning I would think that by completely disconnecting the battery from the vehicles power system that you would in fact be able to shut off an engine or shut off a still running electric fuel pump.  But the book doesn't say that this is what the switch must do.  It's also safe to presume that its purpose is to kill all power on the vehicle thereby reducing the chances of sparks and/or fires.  Or maybe the switch is supposed to do all those thing.

I will say this, as a second responder to the Keith Copeland accident in his Bocar, we never found his main kill switch as at the time it wasn't mandated to be at either extreme end of the car.  When I got there, the car was still upside down (so we couldn't see the sticker that tells you the location of the switch is) with Keith in it unconscious and the fuel pump running full steam dumping out fuel all over the ground.  At this point there was only a small fire but once we flipped the car over all the fuel that was pouring onto the ground was now dumping out onto the hot engine and the small fire got very big very quickly.  I honestly thought Keith was either going to die in the fire or die from lack of oxygen from all the fire extinguising chemical that was being used to try and put the fire out.  Long story short, the fire finally got put out (once all the fuel burned off) and they cut the cage off and got Keith out.  He's one lucky SOB if you ask me.

So, there's a perfect example of why you need the switch and why it should be in a standardized location.  It's also a good example as to why you need an interia switch. 

[Bob Drury]

  Nathan, while you are but a mere pup in the inspection of LSR vehicles, it is a pleasure to have someone who has not only a fresh approach but the balls to question the status quo.
  I say this not as a blank statement to our governing body, rules or rule makers, but other than Dan Warner (whom I don't believe that I have ever met personally) you are to the best of my knowledge the only other SCTA or BNI  inspector or official to openly post on this site.
  I salute both yourself and Dan for at the very least, giving the rest of us a calm, well thought out response to our questions.
  Do I fault the others who don't seem to recognize this sites existence?  I understand the problems associated with being a volunteer and responsible for making unpopular decisions, and having to answer many questions by angst filled (for lack of a better phrase) racers, but I also feel that given the fact that we are all in this together, in a ideal World, we could be more open.
  Here is to you, Nathan, and to everyone else who makes LSR what it is............Bob

[maj]

I saw a comment about loggers not long ago and the use of a capacitor on the logger circuit to maintain enough current for the logger to shut down in the case of an incident, esp so the logger can keep a record of the incident for later review , not much point if it misses the realy important stuff

[fastman614]

When the emergency crew reaches to shut off the main disconnect they should be touching the main disconnect.
The linkage could be damaged in a crash and not work. If it ain't there it can't break. I'm not buying your logic that it would work in all circumstances.

You really don't have to "buy" my logic, Dean..... I guess we could get into a lengthy debate about possible scenarios in any crash .... and keep "one-upping" each other until the cows come home with this one.... but, as far as I am concerned, my car (and numerous others as well) are in compliance with the rules as they are written.

BTW, on our Vega, the switch has ALWAYS been at the right rear of the vehicle - just inboard of the original tail-light..... with about a foot of wire from the battery to the switch...

The lakester was more problematic as the bodywork, behind the rear axle is more of a "tail-cone" type of an extension from the original body....the section is completely self supporting for the last 4 feet of it. We had actually looked at how to affix the switch and "welding cable sized" wires out to the rear of the car and by what method(s) we could effectively disconnect and reconnect it to the body during "body-off" maintenance time on the car. It was my assessment that, in the event of a catastrophe, the switch, mounted out back in the body, would, in all likelihood, be mangled from the body being torn off.... There was, in my opinion, NO "utopian" method for making this work. Personally, I felt that the switch, located as it was originally, about 70" ahead of the rear of the car - on the right side - in the open - plainly marked and visible, was close enough to the rear of the car to be in compliance with the rules - but NOT SO - according to the enforcers of current interpretations of the rules governing these things. Also, in the event of the body being torn off and the rod torn off as well, the switch, which is mounted to a body support that is part of the chassis, will still be there and there will be enough of the original switch lever to grasp for the purpose of turning it to the off position. Now, if that part of the chassis gets destroyed in the hypothetical catastrophe, there is no real telling where exactly that switch will be in that case....

[Bob Drury]

  I am in agreement with both Dean and Dave (fastman), and having read a previous post wonder if there is a backup  system available such as those in laptop computers which could or can store electrical energy while not being a grounded to chassis system.
  In this day and age it is hard to believe that the technolage is not available and if it isn't, somebody need's to jump on it.

[jl222]

  We have 2 big battery disconect switches on the 222 Camaro, one that the driver can shut off and one at the rear 6'' from battery and mounted on inside rear body work. Had to drill hole in body and tailight for push off rod,which we labled ''push for off.''
  Short positive battery cable to switch, long positive cable to other switch.

                    JL222

 

[Bob Drury]

  John, If I am reading you correctly, both (while being independent of each other) kill EVERYTHING.  If not, I don't see how it meets the rule.
                                                     Bob

[fastman614]

Back to more topic related, if the data is of the utmost priority and is to be saved at nearly all costs, if I was looking at what to do or how to leave a small uninterruptable power supply in the system, I guess it would involve the use of a NiCd (or LiIon) battery with some diode circuitry in order to prevent the power from the small battery from being fed back into the main electrical system.... build the setup similar to the "black box" in an airplane.... 3 cordless phone batteries may be enough.... 

[Bob Drury]

  Dave, in my opinion, thats what we need more of, rather than sniping at each other (and that statement is aimed at absolutely NO ONE), but rather that we all think thru the problem and come together in creating a solution or at least trying our best to better our sport and its sometimes ambiguos rules (thru the fault of NO ONE).
  Hat's off and a warm Molson (you are English, correct?) to you...............
        Bob         

[Peter Jack]

Take it easy Bob. Molson is Canadian and best served ice cold, especially on the salt! 

Pete