Author Topic: where should the power be?  (Read 15287 times)

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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2012, 06:49:24 PM »
8 grand is spooky land for a 3.8 even if you have the best stuff in the bottom end & a crank girdle. It's liable to get tangled up in it's self up there. It's your dollar mate but I'd be more inclined to spend a few $ on compression & run it in the safe-er zone than risk it all up there. I see you didn't go there on the dyno!
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Offline wobblywalrus

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2012, 01:37:29 AM »
The cam specs, compression, and power curves for the sunshine were posted awhile ago.  I remember looking at them and saying to myself, "Yes that will work.  Its a lot of duration for the displacement.  Some intake and exhaust tuning can be used to hold the charge in the cylinder during the overlap."

Two things I realized while thinking about this some more during the last few days.  First, there are two times I have worked with engines with lots of "cam" for the compression and displacement.  I did exhaust and intake tuning on both and each made lots of power.  It was over narrow rpm bands and they worked OK with the close ratio transmissions I was using.  Neither would be satisfactory with a typical wider ratio box.  Second, it took lots of fiddling to figure everything out.  This is no problem on a bike.  All the parts are out in the open where it is easy to monkey with them.  Dyno runs are a cinch, too.  This would be very difficult to do this intake and exhaust tuning with a car.

The suggestions on this thread to raise the compression might be best.  One thing to consider.  A long duration cam lowers the dynamic compression.  Often a cammed motor can easily work with higher static compression ratio than a less cammy engine.

 

Offline Dr Goggles

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2012, 02:48:53 AM »
Just confirmed that we have the short third gear. I have priced swap over guts for the box to get it up to M21 ratios.Should be around $500.

8 grand is spooky land for a 3.8 even if you have the best stuff in the bottom end & a crank girdle. It's liable to get tangled up in it's self up there. It's your dollar mate but I'd be more inclined to spend a few $ on compression & run it in the safe-er zone than risk it all up there. I see you didn't go there on the dyno!
  My opinion but your dollar.
  Sid.

The last motor we had had been a turbo drag motor and regularly taken over 7500. But I hear you.

No, the motor refused to go past 6500 on that dyno session, got a few fixes in the pipeline. Chasing up a crack for the ECU and the Colonel is doing the hard yards on valve springs. Our home-made solid lifters may have a little too much inertia for the springs we had.

No chance for exhaust tuning.
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Offline grumm441

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2012, 07:06:34 AM »
the other problem we had on the dyno was that we didn't have our own full exhaust system on the engine
It ran a bit differntly in the car after we put thw whole exhuast on
Im not to worried about the high RPM
They used these motors in a race series over here called formula Holden where they revved the ring out of them consistantly
G

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Offline fastman614

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2012, 08:02:59 AM »
Just confirmed that we have the short third gear. I have priced swap over guts for the box to get it up to M21 ratios.Should be around $500.
8 grand is spooky land for a 3.8 even if you have the best stuff in the bottom end & a crank girdle. It's liable to get tangled up in it's self up there. It's your dollar mate but I'd be more inclined to spend a few $ on compression & run it in the safe-er zone than risk it all up there. I see you didn't go there on the dyno!
  My opinion but your dollar.
  Sid.

The last motor we had had been a turbo drag motor and regularly taken over 7500. But I hear you.

No, the motor refused to go past 6500 on that dyno session, got a few fixes in the pipeline. Chasing up a crack for the ECU and the Colonel is doing the hard yards on valve springs. Our home-made solid lifters may have a little too much inertia for the springs we had.

No chance for exhaust tuning.

I you are talking Muncie M21 transmissions here, it is my recollection that the third to fourth gear spread was, at best, 1.28 to 1 down to 1 to 1 and, for some reason, I think that the "wide ratio" Muncies had a slightly closer 3rd to 4th spread than the "close ratio" Muncies did - although I could be confusing this with Borg Warner Super T10s. Close ratio was indicated by a 2.20 to 1 first gear whereas the wide ratio was indicated by a 2.52 to 1 first gear...
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Offline kiwi belly tank

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #50 on: June 09, 2012, 11:41:50 AM »
Seems like the time & dollars you're going to put into trying to get this combo to run way the hell up there, a set of pistons would solve everything. I don't know what you have holding the crank in, but it better be at least steel main caps & a girdle or there's a pretty good chance you could run it over. It appears you are willing to risk it all by avoiding the right decision.
Tuff luv, I'll shut the f..k up now.
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Offline fordboy628

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Re: where should the power be?
« Reply #51 on: June 09, 2012, 06:54:26 PM »
Hi Doc,

Some of you guys following Milwaukee Midget's build diary might have read some of my posts.   Short version of the long story is:  I'm an engine guy for 40+ years.   Started out in drags, went to road racing, and have thence spent some time with Imsa, Indy & Nascar teams.  Lots of dyno experience, lots of engineering experience.  Just read through your thread today & I have some thoughts & experience that can confirm some of what is being said.

1)   When the vehicle's total drag hp = drive wheel hp/traction available, then that's your top end speed.   Overall gear ratio changes
      (trans ratio * diff ratio) usually only matter if you are traction limited.   (This only applies to wheel driven vehicles.)   Trans gear splits
      will not matter if the engine "falls out" of the "power band".   If the hp required is not available where you are in the rpm band when
      you shift, you can no longer accellerate.   This is where wide trans ratio spacing kills your speed.
2)   For all high speed racing vehicles, the need for progressively lower ratio steps between gears increases as speeds increase.   This is  
      because aero drag increases as a function of the cube of velocity.
3)   For LS Racing your needs are: drag/F-1 style accelleration + narrow focus on high top end speed (such as Indy/Daytona) + reliability
      to provide both (more than drag, less than Indy/Daytona) without an engine maintenance nightmare.

Your comments about your engine leave gaps in the information & specs that I need to know to make an intelligent assessment of where you are at with your engine.   But in general:

A)   "Long" duration race cams are typically a poor choice for low (static) compression engines.  The duration of your cam should be
      based on a number of variables, starting with octane of the fuel being used.   It doesn't do any good to engineer a combination for
      114 RON, and then use 90 MON, or vice versa.   What is your 'effective' C/R?  (when does your inlet valve close?)   If you have 10/1
      static C/R, and a "long" cam, your effective C/R might only be 6/1, depending on build specs.   An additional complication is "dynamic
      C/R" (effective C/R * volumetric efficiency) which may again, lower or raise the effective C/R.
B)   Engines can "stop pulling" for a variety of reasons.  But let's assume that it is valve train related.  It could be, among others:
      1)   Inadequate valve spring pressure.   For the rpm being run, for the mass of the valve train, for the "negative" accellerations of
            the cam grind, etc.
      2)   Valve spring harmonics ("surge")  Same basic reasons above.  If the springs natural frequency is in the rpm range you use, you
            need a different spring/spring combination.
      3)   Valve train motion uncontrolled.   Same reasons again.  Parts "flexing"/bending/binding, etc.  Some of this is simple, most is
            more complex to analyse.
C)   When running your engine on a dyno, it is absolutely vital to use components (such as exhaust headers/pipes) exactly the same as
      used in the car.   It misses the point, to tune for a different combination on the dyno, than what you use in the car................
D)   Whether your engine is "high winder" or a "stump puller" you are best served and get the best results by tuning for the "largest area
       under the hp curve".    I'll usually trade peak power for a "flatter/fatter" hp curve with better hp 'area', IF, I benefit from it.
E)   You choose the rpm range your engine will run in, by making choices about the build specs/geometry.   Some engineering and good
      sense may be required here.   The components chosen for reliability (bottom end) must co-exist with components chosen for power.
      The power range produced must match with what is required for the vehicle.

If I know more specifics about the build, I can make a more specific comment.
 :cheers:
Fordboy

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 07:05:51 PM by fordboy628 »
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