LSR tires

[Leon]

Leon, I think you are missing the point here.

Now I see what you're talking about.  I didn't look at it that way before.

[k.h.]

I spent two hours speaking with a tire executive today.  Bleak is what I would term the outlook for Big Rubber help, here or abroad.

[Sumner]

I spent two hours speaking with a tire executive today.  Bleak is what I would term the outlook for Big Rubber help, here or abroad.

One thing I forgot when I was talking about the overseas manufacture is that someone here still has to sell them.  To do that you need someone who has no assets.  I don't have any money, but I do have some assets I don't want to lose at this point in my life.

It is a shame there is no way to get around the liability thing.  People are their own worst enemies sometimes

c ya, Sum

[JackD]

Liability can extend to the people that specify a particular product for use in their program.
The protection you think you have is all still subject to the Judicial System.

[k.h.]

Is "the club" actively in talks with any tire manufacturer at this time?  It took one phone call to come up with that company in Oregon that apparently is not panning out.  Too bad.  We can keep trying.  

If an LSR tire manufacturer can be found, here or abroad, with whom at the club should they communicate?  Will the tires have to be subsidized?  Is there money to underwrite tires?

[1212FBGS]

KH,
OH YEAH! there is plenty of SCTA money to subsidize the tire problem.

 I went to Germany a couple of years ago for a motorcycle show, i approached a cool helmet manufacturer to be an importer to the US They said NFW they were not interested in doing business in sue happy America. That was Shark helmets and they do a very good business in Europe and still wont sell to the US. I talked to an Italian light manufacturer and they said the same thing. alto you think it may be hard to sue a foreign company I think the hardest thing is to get them interested in doing business in our sue happy society. Lawyers screwed us without a kiss. Oh yeah the SCTA did get involved in a tire deal a while back. It was a back door deal to keep the lawyers out of SCTA pockets if something went wrong. the whole thing did go south and it turned out ugly. will they get involved again? probably not! Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr

[1212FBGS]

Sum
 They don't need a fall guy. It can be done easily with a standard Nevada "S" corp. All corporate officers are judgment proof unless found that there actions were deliberate or criminal. The new corp can be given a Grant loan for say $250k from lets say the SCTA and all the tires bought. when the tires are sold the grant loan can be paid back with interest and even the officers can profit through salaries. everything cool until someone dies and the survivors decide to sue the new Nevada tire distributor. no problem the tire corp can pay a small insurance premium or umbrella policy to indemnify all the corporate officer. actually the tire corp won't really need to pay an attorney a dime they just ignore the suit and allow a judgment against the Nevada corp cuz they don't own anything they have a large secured debt on the grant loan and the grant-or called the note and seized all the tire inventory! all is well in shifty lawyer land. but the real problem is that the scumbag attorneys will name the tire "MAKER" in the suit. these are the guys that don't want to roll over and give up anything even to an attorney to defend the action. the real deal is we can't convince any tire maker to make us anything even for stupid expensive money. not here in the states or elsewhere. We can not indemnify or promise them that they won't spend a dime in attorneys fees to defend against an action. there afraid... were screwed. sell your shit, go slow.
kr

[fastesthonda_jim]

I know a few folks have experimented with belts for tires.  Has anyone given thoughts to rubber covered (about .100" thick or so vulcanized to the "wheel") aluminum "tires"?  I mean we run 'em at 120psi anyway so they might as well be solid.  

A few guys run solid aluminum fronts and I haven't heard whether they are worse the same or better than rubber for steering.  Perhaps the future is in aluminum "tires" with some kind of tread machined/knurled  into the surface?  Something a machine shop with a 30" lathe could do?

Recently Michelin debuted an airless tire that looked like a bunch of rubber spokes attached to a rubber belt for tread.  I realized that even with Perry Riches legal advice we may still have a tough time finding a manufacturer.  So perhaps there is a more "home grown" solution.  Isn't what hot rodders are famous for?  Let's think outside the box.  To put a JackD spin on it, how about hovercraft?

Let's see... top fuel tires go 320 mph "all the time".  And they grow as the speed goes up helping the ratio.  Would seem to me that the tire guys  could pull some spacers out of their rear tires to get 'em skinnier, or add a little strength to their front runners to make the numbers we need.  I mean don't drag racers cause legal issues?  I mean if you want to talk about a motor sport that is "out there" look at Top Fuel and Funny Cars.  The attorneys must have worked something out with those guys.  And they make some of the stuff we do look pretty high school.

Oh well.....

[Sumner]

I mean don't drag racers cause legal issues?  I mean if you want to talk about a motor sport that is "out there" look at Top Fuel and Funny Cars.  The attorneys must have worked something out with those guys.  And they make some of the stuff we do look pretty high school.

Oh well.....

They go through LOTS more tires, thus lots more profits to pay for lawyers, insurance, etc..  At least that is my guess.

Kent I think you live too close to Jack.  I know there was some good ideas in your post and possible a solution or close to one, but I couldn't quite figure it all out .  Just when I thought you had a solution you took the air out of it .  Maybe I could get Jack to explain it .  I guess I'll be on the leading edge of the new car owners since my car will be slow .

How about your Nevada corp. idea where when you buy tires you also buy stock in the corporation.  Then you couldn't sue yourself if something went wrong   .

c ya, Sum

[JackD]

As for the tire design mentioned, all have them have been tried with various degrees of failure by some pretty sharp people.
TF rear tires don't go 320 all the time. They only run close to that speed for less than 1/2 a second and are starting to fail at that.
Belted rims have been tried , most recently by Bruce Crower. It was so good in theory but in practice it was the only modern narrow liner that you have ever seen do a flat spin.
Aluminum tread  wheels will only work slightly for steering on a car but not on the front of a bike because there is no contact patch for lateral traction. They won't transmit power for the same reason. Preshaped aluminum must displace the salt to the point they have enough contact to work and that won't happen without leaving a substantial mark on the surface of the track and consume a lot of power along the way.
The tires you have seen go the fastest are very close to the correct design. Getting them built is the problem and the liability has to be taken in house or you can just forget it.
Inspite of the stiffness of the cord construction or the support of the air, pneumatic tires really do paw the ground and provide traction as long as the suspension and surface will allow them to stay on the ground.

[Dynoroom]

KH,
OH YEAH! there is plenty of SCTA money to subsidize the tire problem.

 I went to Germany a couple of years ago for a motorcycle show, i approached a cool helmet manufacturer to be an importer to the US They said NFW they were not interested in doing business in sue happy America. That was Shark helmets and they do a very good business in Europe and still wont sell to the US. I talked to an Italian light manufacturer and they said the same thing. alto you think it may be hard to sue a foreign company I think the hardest thing is to get them interested in doing business in our sue happy society. Lawyers screwed us without a kiss. Oh yeah the SCTA did get involved in a tire deal a while back. It was a back door deal to keep the lawyers out of SCTA pockets if something went wrong. the whole thing did go south and it turned out ugly. will they get involved again? probably not! Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr

Gee Kent, you sure they were saying no to U.S. sales or just no to you?

As far as SCTA cash dollars go the way I do the math if we spent every dollar we had on tires you would be left with none. Example 200 tires @ $500 each = $100,000.00. This does not include development or testing. I do think the club should spend "some" money to help with the problem but not every dime, another year or two of rain outs and we'll be in debit again.

I also don't think spin testing is the right kind of testing, we need to load the tire too if were going to be able to give any kind of recommendation on speed. There are laboratories (Smithers Scientific for one) that do automotive testing and even have a 20' dia. drum that can spin tires to very high speeds AND load them.

As far as NHRA fuelers go just last year Darrell Russell was killed in a "tire" mishap, the legal issues are far from over on that one.

This is a very tough problem but it is being worked on, just because it's not in the headlines doesn't mean nothing is being done. If you don't think some folks with big $$ are looking at a solution (Herbert for one) your misinformed.
 
Kent also said:
 Back to racers trying to help themselves and other racers. like I said, sell your fast cars to someone who doesn't know and start racing a slow door slammer.
kr

As far as door slammers go a few are faster than some 'liners, we need tires too.

[Dynoroom]

As for the tire design mentioned, all have them have been tried with various degrees of failure by some pretty sharp people.
TF rear tires don't go 320 all the time. They only run close to that speed for less than 1/2 a second and are starting to fail at that.
Belted rims have been tried , most recently by Bruce Crower. It was so good in theory but in practice it was the only modern narrow liner that you have ever seen do a flat spin.
Aluminum tread  wheels will only work slightly for steering on a car but not on the front of a bike because there is no contact patch for lateral traction. They won't transmit power for the same reason. Preshaped aluminum must displace the salt to the point they have enough contact to work and that won't happen without leaving a substantial mark on the surface of the track and consume a lot of power along the way.
The tires you have seen go the fastest are very close to the correct design. Getting them built is the problem and the liability has to be taken in house or you can just forget it.
Inspite of the stiffness of the cord construction or the support of the air, pneumatic tires really do paw the ground and provide traction as long as the suspension and surface will allow them to stay on the ground.

Very well said Jack, are you alright?

[JackD]

and some pretty smart people along the way.
The various designs have been tried and true. With the strength improvements in the cord material the tires can be better than ever.
The problem with LSR stuff is we don't tend to wear them out and the age is what deteriorates them more than the wear. In all other forms of racing you can count on repeated tire sales over a season. In LSR a tire might change hands 5 times over 40 years and even outlast a vehicle.
The $500 per tire and $100k mentioned would be a cheap deal because you forgot that money would happen with the sales. Better than sales would be a lease over the time the tire might be expected to maintain it's material strength. If you wear it out sooner, start over with a new lease and more money.
BNI did it in the 70s with 2 sizes and borrowed money. They sold them all.  

Oh Mike
If I say something to confuse you it might be designed to make you think.

[johnrobinson]

hmmm, been folowing this, got a suggestion, myabe it's been thought of, but rather than purchase a set of tires, why not a lease, say 5 years, pays for the tires, and after a period of time, gets them returned to the mfg to get them off the salt, kinda like helmets or safety belts, gotta replace them every now and again cause of the rules, maybe do the  same with tires, so they are not aged to the point of failure. maybe that way the scta or other entity can be protected? ain't a lawyer, dont want to think like that, so there are probably holes in this idea big enough to drive through....asking any lawyer if one can be sued is stupid in my opinion, of course he's gonna say yes....HE can be sued too....for giving advice that was "wrong"....geeze what a country we live in now....sure ain't what my father thought it would be like, nor what my social studies teacher taught either....I was taught that society has certain responsibilities, and so does the citizen. sure seems like the people (lawyers?) have changed that!

[jprovo]

How about Dresser Tire and Rubber co?
http://www.desser.com/retreading.html
They Retread aircraft tires. Since most of the wear on LSR tires is dry rot, just retread  them.
I know it sounds hokey, but read the link, it's fairly sophisticated. They're making motorcycle retreads right now.