LSR tires

[Bob Drury]

I hate to keep beating a seemingly dead horse, but with the recent anouncement that the Artic Tundra Tire LSR project is dead, I want to propose what I think is the only possible way to build tires for our needs.  I think we need to accept the fact that no for profit business will ever again build LSR tires for above 300 mph, because of the Legal problems involved.  I believe that the only recourse is for SCTA to build or purchase existing molds (the Arctic Tundra 30" outer mold is built).   I do not know if Cooper tire destroyed the M/T molds, and if not, maybe the SCTA could purchase them, and remove the M/T name from the molds.  I fear that unless the SCTA or some other NON PROFIT takes this challange on, Streamliners and Comp Coupes will soon become things of the past.  Perhaps the money could be raised by outside sources(members of BNI and SCTA), but run thru a not for profit corperation.  These are just my thoughts, but we need to act before our sport suffers the consequences.  Bob Drury

[Sumner]

Bob you are right something will probably have to be done if we want to see the fast cars run.  I even worry about Goodyear pulling the plug on the current landspeed tires at some point since the sale of these tires must be on the order of 1 millionth of a percent of their yearly sales.  I hope sometime to buy a couple extra and stockpile them.  It is a scary thought to think a mistake at home, on the road, or on the track could ruin a tire and you would have to park the car you have a lot of time and money into .

The problem is the mentality of people now who don't want to take any blame for anything and feel someone else is responsible for them and needs to pick up the tab, sue, if something goes wrong.  Unfortunately this attitude will probably not go away.  I see guys who are all against suing, but as soon as something happens to them or one of their buddies the sue word comes right up.  The other problem is you or I might not do anything, but if we aren't around no telling what our families might do.

And the last problem is there is no sure fire way to escape the liability problem as no matter how you structure the organization, non-profit, not for profit, etc., a lawyer can always go after the individuals in the organization if they can't get to the organization itself.  I'm not saying they will win, but it could cost you an awful lot to keep from losing .

It is a sad situation and I hope an answer can be found for it.  I'm all for doing anything I can to help you or whoever find a solution.

Thanks for bringing it up,

Sum

[k.h.]

Marvin Rifchen, founder of M&H is likely still available as a consultant to interested parties wanting to build LSR tires.  Marvin knows who to go to to design molds, tire building machines, where to get things engineered and accomplished around Akron, etc., etc.  

The late John Beckett and a few of us made some progress in the direction of a non-profit a couple of years ago before the Oregon potential tire source came into play.  Sorry about that.  If anyone is really interested, it is my opinion that the way to get tires is for someone to actually go visit Marvin in Watertown, Massachusetts and draw out a game plan regarding where to find a designer for the required molds and tire building machines and how to test the tires.  A complete flow chart without deadlines.  The old technology is still representative in the tires people are using right now.  Go with what works and don't try to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.  Counting on Cooper may not be prudent.  

If the SCTA is non-profit, is it possible they will research and develop tires "in the interest of improving safety and promoting an amateur sport"? That criteria was necessary for the non-profit status when Mr. Beckett and I were working on the tire issue.  Having a non-profit to do this is the first step, the second step being to solicit enough private or corporate donations big enough to do the job.  Maybe Cooper would like a tax write-off . . . . .

There have been several specific ideas put to paper on how to make this work, should this non-profit tire source get pursued.  And don't forget M/C tires.

[1212FBGS]

the scta could fund it!
the last I heard they had a crap load of dough setting in bank accounts! should they? probably, if they really are racers interested in racing and the continued growth of the premier classes in there venue. should they help the racers who fund them in going dangerously fast? probably not! should they continue to promote and support boring slow speed records we can currently get tires for? probably, better for the insurance premiums! but will people stop showing up to the races because they cant see 300, or 400mph vehicles race? wait, what spectators? silly me! Will the SCTA step up? probably not! Are you a racer? do ya wanna race? Sell your 300+ cars while ya can! build a roadster ta go 200 or whatever ya can put a drag tire on cuz that's all there will be in the future... think about it!
kr

[k.h.]

I believe the SCTA underwrote the work on the new tires in Oregon, or otherwise worked closely at their own expense with that potential manufacturer.  The molds may cost $20-40K for each size, but used tire building machines might be found around in Akron if they haven't gone to the scrappers.  I prolly wouldn't turn the actual building of LSR tires over to just anyone.  Unless you want to give them the "Maypop" brand name.

[JackD]

Welcome to the 70s.
 SCTA/BNI did it before with borrowed money and now they are positioned
 to do it again for in house cash.
You have to get the ***ADMINISPHERE to get off their duff and get it done.
Life does not revolve around the High Boy Roadster or Castles on the lake.

***ADMINISPHERE: The rarified organizational layers beginning just above the rank and file.
Decisions that fall from the ADMINISPHERE are often profoundly inappropriate or irrelevant to the problems they were designed to solve.

[k.h.]

Fulda just made some high speed tires for a jubilee edition of a streamlined Maybach.  Perhaps our friend Schweinefleishpastete, I mean Pork Pie, might discern if they would be open to manufacturing LSR tires in small lots.  More likely one of the East European countries would have the capability to do small lots of quality tires to order.  I'd first Czech the quality of tires from Slovakia.

One can buy a container load of LSR tires ordered to a specification from China.  But only a container minimum.  And no test prototypes.  The suppliers are interested in volume orders.  Kinda' spendy for 700 or 1000 Maypops if they won't do the job.

There is no commercial venture opportunity here.  It's going to be heavily subsidized charity work.  What better do-good cause than saving LSR from slow speeds?

[Leon]

Not sure if it has been mentioned before, but how about Coker Tire?  They build shorter runs of just about any odd-ball tire ever used on vintage cars, it seems they should have the expertise to do low volume production of what we need.

[desotoman]

Hi Guys,
  As I recall, there is going to be some testing done on tires that are already made, by private individuals. The tests to my knowledge have not been done yet, but when I hear the results I will let you know.
Regards,
Tom Gerardi

[1212FBGS]

I've seen very nice stuff from the Czech republic. there are a lot of cold war missile companies there that do some really beautiful Ti and carbon work I would trust they would make it to exact specs. as for china? I wouldn't race on no thin from china. they have a bad habit of giving you what they think is cost effective instead of what you spec ed out, the bait and switch thing they are famous for. There is many qualified tire people in the states that can do the tires, the problem is, they want money for there hard work. Who will step up and pay for it? 20 to 40k is not a problem for the SCTA, they got the dough. will they do it? I don't know should they? I think so. what are they gonna do with all the dough they are sitting on? well, put a nice mobile home on some land with a nice big barn to start with. boy I wish they would kick back some of that dough to us racers who supported and funded them. but for now, sell your fast stuff you wont be able to race it for long.
kr

[1212FBGS]

by the way. I'm looking for a couple of those old 5" dragster tires and wheels anybody know where I can find them?
kent

[Bob Drury]

test

[Bob Drury]

Leon, I think you are missing the point here.  I don't beleive ANY "for profit" company will ever again build LSR tires.  Two years ago M/T were ready to ship tires to about 30 of us.  The very day they were to ship, The lawyers for the new parent company, Cooper Tire, took a look at the six page release that each of us had signed, and said NFW.  They said there are NO RELEASE FORMS that would clear them or any other Company from liability in a court of law.  I am not sure, but I think that Arctic Tundra Tire received the same advice from their lawyers.  Perhaps a foreign entity could avoid this problem, I don't know.  This I do know, unless we, the racers, get a grip on this, the days of cars running over 300 are limited.  I don't forsee the need for these tires personally, but I care about this sport more than anything I have ever done, and I don't think some people understand just how dire this situation is......................

[JackD]

Any company that wants do do long term business with another will have the Lawyers from that other company also looking at the long term viability of the people they are doing business with.
For example the tire deal might have been a liability that MT sold to Cooper and the Atty for Pep Boys raised the flag to say NFW.
If the other guy had a silent partner or even a line of credit at the bank the stop might have originated there also.

[Sumner]

Perhaps a foreign entity could avoid this problem, I don't know.  This I do know, unless we, the racers, get a grip on this, the days of cars running over 300 are limited.  I don't foresee the need for these tires personally, but I care about this sport more than anything I have ever done, and I don't think some people understand just how dire this situation is......................

Goodyear was making the landspeed tires in I think Chili until they brought the operation back here this past year.  Seems like it might be pretty hard to sue a foreign entity.  Good idea Bob .  If someone here (say SCTA or someone else) had the molds they would probably have to sell them to said company to completely divorce themselves from the deal for liability purposes and that might be a little tricky as then you would loose control of what might happen to those molds in the future.

I don't have the courage or probably the equipment to run over 300, but I sure do like watching other guys and gals do it .  Last year seemed really flat with no fast runs taking place.  Running over 200 is quite an accomplishment, but I'm spoiled and want to see cars run over 300 and even over 400.

c ya, Sum