Author Topic: Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?  (Read 28660 times)

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Offline tomsmith

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stability, etc
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2006, 10:06:32 PM »
Reading the threads makes me realize how ignorant and unthinking I was (along with some other folks) back in 1952.  The course that year, if I remember right, was 3 miles acceleration, three 1-mile traps, and 3 miles to slow down in.  The 650cc Triumph (motorcycle) I rode took only 2 miles or a little less to get up to top speed, so I stroked along in second gear for the first mile.  I tached 165mph and clocked 148mph, so I asked some car/motorcycle guys about wheelspin - they all assured me that 3 to 5mph was max, and 17mph wheelspin had to be a tachometer error.  The following year, Rich Richards on his 650cc Triumph did about 147mph with 165mph indicated - he said it was wheelspin.  This was almost identical to me, so maybe I was right after all.  I have finally realized that if we had just added enough weight to minimize wheelspin, I would have gone maybe 10mph faster - I had plenty of distance to build up speed.  In any case, I got into a high speed wobble/headshake/shimmy and/or weave at about 150mph, so I got some practice bouncing on the salt.  Recently I have been reading some reports on stability and found that light weight (I weighed 124 pounds) tends to increase the tendency to get a wobble.  Also. rearward rider weight tends to induce it too (like my riding position).    

Some Professors in the Engineering Dept. at Cranfield University in England have been doing a lot of research on motorcycle stability as well as consulting for Ducati.  The college does work for the Williams F1 team, aerospace studies and automotive development among other things.  They have published several papers on motorcycle stability (I have four of them totaling 5MB in case anyone wants to see them - just send me an e-mail address or something).  The head of the Engineering Dept and some of the other professors ride bikes, so they are more than just theoretical guys.  One very interesting thing they are working on is an active steering damper.   Let me know if you want their e-mail address, although they probably don't want thousands of requests.  Attached is a picture of them.

By the way, the "pressure drag"  mentioned by Rex Schimmer was perhaps "dynamic pressure" or "Q".  Due to advancing age and senility my memory is getting bad (my wife says that is just part of it), but back in 1963 I was the author of the USAF flight test software package.  I almost but don't quite remember any of the details of anything.  I just wish I could find my flight test handbook, which I haven't seen since Jan 1964 when I went to work at JPL.
139mph with no bike, but with speedo and helmet.

Offline JackD

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« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2006, 10:32:20 PM »
Can you imagine a Trumpet guy from the 50s has it figured out and the kids are wanting to change the laws of nature for them now ? :wink:
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Offline k.h.

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Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2006, 11:21:45 PM »
tomsmith, was that you coated in graphite for the speedo run?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline tomsmith

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that was me all right
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2006, 10:25:14 AM »
Yep, that was me.  But the "graphite" was actually a really good sun tan from wearing just a bathing suit on the salt a few days.  I have figured out some of it, but 50 years too late to do me any good.  My debacle at Bonneville did keep me out of the Korean war - I got my draft notice two weeks after my accident.  I had just turned 19.  The FBI kept sending me threatening letters to show up for my physical until my mother wrote them to "come on over - I would like some visitors".  Luckily my mother was an MD; she got a lot of practice trying things on me.

I am learning and re-learning a lot of stuff reading all the comments.  I worked at Edwards AFB (the Air Force Flight Test Center) from 1959 through 63 as a mathematician & computer programmer.  Since I lived at Rosamond, I crossed over the upper part of Rosamond dry lake every day getting to work.  I could see to the South where the speed trials were formerly held.  The Air Force used the lake as an emergency landing site, which is why they closed it down.  High speed corridor #3 went right over Rosamond, so we got about 30 sonic booms per day.  I went from fast bikes to fast airplanes.  Since I was in charge of optical tracking data processing, I was the official F?d?ration A?ronautique Internationale - FAI guy to determine results for all USAF closed course, time to climb, and level flight world record speed attempts for the four years I worked there.  It was great fun until my wife, kids and I couldn't stand the dust storms any more.

I decided to attach the papers that the guys at Cranfield sent me.  Hope they are interesting.  The longest one is too big (2.8MB) to attach - sorry.
139mph with no bike, but with speedo and helmet.

Offline JackD

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SORELY NEEDED
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2006, 12:03:53 PM »
what you had was an MD, what you needed was a DMH to get you through the insanity of your teenage days.
The graphite was a wonderful idea for you to try, and the weight and balance test is still being learned today in spite of all the progress you made that has stuck with you all these years.
Just because you stopped teaching is not a valid excuse for them not to learn but some learn harder than others.
As far as the rest of it, nothing has changed . The car guys are still trying to do it to the bikers. The only difference is now they get a lot more notice.
ENJOY
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline k.h.

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Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2006, 07:08:38 PM »
There is a great picture of Tommy Smith, then of Turlock, just before the infamous bathing suit ride on Blackie Bernal's Triumph T-bird, on page 43 of American Racer, 1940-1980.  So, that put an end to bathing suits at Bonneville and your experience was an important tipping point in LSR history.  Glad to see you came out okay and changed things for the better.

I see the cones on the Triumph's pipes are about the same size as the air intake diameters facing forward on the front intake/rear exhaust rig.  
Is it still around?
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline tomsmith

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dunno what happened to it
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2006, 09:14:48 PM »
The 650cc Triumph I was riding belonged to Henry "Blackie" Bernal and was built by Bud Hare.  It was especially configured for Bonneville.  It usually looked pretty normal, but Bud Hare liked to do novel things.  He built a twin engine Triumph "Dubble Trouble" fuel dragster, which was owned by Bill Koch - it did 142mph in 1956 at the Santa Ana drag strip.  I lost track of Blackie Bernal around 1954 (we lived over 200 miles apart), so I don't know what happened to him or his bike.

Attached is a picture of me (clipped from Oct 52 Cycle magazine) on the bike at Rosamond dry lake in late July, 1952.  You can see the sheet metal cones on the carbs.  I don't know if it helped, but the strange megaphones sure sounded nice.  They could hear me a long distance away.  I did a little over 134mph at Rosamond on very soft dirt, so I ran on the edge of the course about 10 ft away from the spectators in the hope the dirt was harder there.  The spectators said it was quite spectacular.  Safety for spectators is somewhat improved these days, I hope.

I normally ran a fuel Harley.  I ran it at Rosamond once and got a flat front tire at about 135mph.  I just thought the dirt was kind of soft (I ran a lot of desert races, so soft dirt was normal for me).  When I pulled off the course, I finally noticed that the steering was a little mushy.  The same meet on the next run, my front motor mount broke and the motor started jumping up and down in the frame (again at 135mph).  The motor bounced so much that it caused the front wheel to also bounce up and down a few inches.  After the run, Chet Herbert motioned to me and then told me in a low key voice "I don't think I would ride that bike any more".
139mph with no bike, but with speedo and helmet.

Offline Sumner

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Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2006, 11:45:47 PM »
Tommy that is great stuff.  I hope you post a lot more of it.  I started riding in the early 60's and I don't think anyone who rides now can hardly imagine the difference in the bikes between then and now.  The suspensions and stuff were just so primitive to what they are now.  I'm amazed at those speeds you were running then.

You did some amazing things.  Thanks for sharing them with us and hope you continue to do so.  Do you have any of your exploits down in print anywhere?

c ya, Sum

Offline k.h.

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Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2006, 09:11:02 AM »
Maybe the webmaster, what without enough to do already, will configue another "history" section to archive the memories and stories of folks from earlier times and today.  Might compile excerts from it into a series of books at some point as a fundraiser to underwrite this great LSR site.  

Great stories Tommy.
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.  But in practice, there is.--Jan L. A. Van de Snepscheut

Offline JackD

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OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS
« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2006, 10:58:01 AM »
A lot of those people that got past trying to do themselves in at an early age are still around and a lot wiser.
Use them before you lose them.
 They are really happy to share and the recognition they deserve is well spent.
 You have to separate the lesson from the story a little bit.
 Enjoy the story but learn the lesson. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline tomsmith

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why we did it that way
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2006, 10:58:55 AM »
On reflection, I think the reason we did so many strange things was that we didn't know what we were doing, and we didn't have any money to do it with anyways.  One thing we didn't know was how to run high nitro fuels.  The most I knew of in 1952 was 30%.  One time we decided to run straight Methanol at drags, and the bike ran the same speed as on nitro.  This was just as well, since the street tires we used didn't have any traction and some guys (like the Brute) spun them the whole quarter mile.  So much for scientific knowledge and skill.  We also didn't know how to get enough nitro into the motor, so we drilled out the main jets in the carb and ran dump tubes (a second set of fuel lines).  We would start the motor on the idle jets, then turn on the dump tubes just when we were ready to start.  This explained why you could see a big cloud of fuel coming out of the carbs during a run, and why the left leg of my levis would be soaked in fuel after the run, and also explained why you didn't want to catch the bike on fire (like happened to be once).  Only one or two bike shops had dynos, and since we couldn't afford to do any testing on them, everything was done by guesswork.  I did the porting on the fuel Harleys I rode, and seemed to guess about as well as anyone else.  The Harley factory did give us advice and some parts for our flat head track bikes (WLDR and K-models).
139mph with no bike, but with speedo and helmet.

Offline JackD

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Yup
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2006, 11:24:24 AM »
A famous old Nitro guy from around here was doing an interview about how much Nitro he used. The answer was "125%", When the Magazine type asked how that was passable the driver said, "we just had enough of the pure stuff to make a run and we did not want to cut it with Alky so we borrowed a gallon from Red."
That is the kind of Priceless stuff that is out there. :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

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Re: dunno what happened to it
« Reply #72 on: March 27, 2006, 06:01:53 PM »
Quote from: tomsmith
I lost track of Blackie Bernal around 1954 (we lived over 200 miles apart), so I don't know what happened to him or his bike.
.


Hi, I am part of Blackie's family. It's nice to see information on him on the internet.
Hank passed away about 3 years ago. I am not sure what happened with the motorcycle, but I can ask his son what happened to it and I can post it when I find out.

Offline JackD

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VALUE ADDED
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2006, 08:57:19 PM »
The value of this forum goes way beyond today's endless problems.
"You can't tell where you are going until you understand where you have been." :wink:
"I would rather lose going fast enough to win than win going slow enough to lose."
"That horrible smell is dirty feet being held to the fire"

Offline Hans Blom

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Lake Gairdner Salt is underwater?
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2006, 03:32:44 PM »
What a great thread! What type of numbers are you guys using for C(d) for an unfaired motorcycle. I know the actual drag force will be dependent on the frontal area as well and have seen .5 being used for bikes, is this the norm?

Hans