Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => 2017 and before: SW & WF => Speedweek 2012 => Topic started by: dw230 on July 09, 2011, 10:51:44 AM
-
I was asked the question, if running on an open record does the first pass, rookie run, count as the qualifier for the record?
I responded no. My recall is that the rookie run is stand alone, for observation purposes only. If the driver passes the first stage of licensing then the next upgrade pass can be used as the qualifing run for the record.
Nathan, I think this falls into your bucket as the rookie advisor. Do you have any thoughts?
Thanks,
DW
-
I know for a fact that at El Mirage a few years ago there was a guy who ran a flat head and on his first pass he broke the record at 108 or something, but they made him run another time because the first pass was his rookie run.
I dont know any real reason for this...
-
I dont know any real reason for this...
Oh there's a reason. In fact it's actually a rule and it's in the El Mirage Procedures. The EMP clearly states that a record can NOT be set on a rookie run. In fact, no records can not be set if you run out of the rookie line at all. If you run out of the rookie line you're a rookie and if you're a rookie you can not set a record. The point being that as a new driver your focus should be familiarizing yourself with your race vehicle and our operating procedures, not going out and getting in over your head trying to set a record the first time out.
Dan, you and I are on the same page. As far as Bonneville goes, the same thing generally applies. I know for the past couple years that I've been doing the Rookie Orientation I have made it a point to mention that new drivers can NOT qualify for a record on their first run. Truth be told, there are too many new drivers and not enough officiators to really enforce this and I know a couple rookies slipped through and got into impound on their first run last year. Oh well I guess.
My POV is that we have all week to be out there racing. Why the rush? Make your rookie run like you're supposed to, show me that you can receive, understand and follow the directions I give you, and then get back in line and run again. If you exceeded the record the first time out then you should have no problem doing it a second time, right? Also, should someone choose to start cracking down on this and checking for licenses upon arrival at impound after a qualifying run, is it worth getting thrown out over? Not saying that this is guaranteed to happen but depending on the circumstances it could.
So anyways, let's just say that no, you can't qualify for a record on your first run. Thanks Dan.
-
If the record is below 125---your regular drivers lisc. Is all you would need. The way the rule book is written you should be able to get in impound with a state issued lisc., and a pass under 150, get your 125-150 pass noted with your timing slip and then make your backup with a SCTA C lis.
The difference is El M is a one pass record.
-
I'm with Sparky.
Can't see the harm in the slower classes or open record as long as you stay within the rules for a rookie run. The EMPs are for El Mirage.
I checked with a SW official and was told that it's not against the rules as there is no written rule that applies.
Stan
-
In that case if the open record is in a AA, triple throwdown, blown, fuel, prop assisted class the driver could blast a 300+ speed and not worry about it. Who checks the license grades anyway?
DW
-
Dan --
I'm just saying that a run is a run. And as long as a rookie doesn't exceed the rookie speed limit on his first run, where's the harm. A rookie's first run is a licensing run.
If you've got a B license, run on a 195 record, go 205 -- you don't have to throw that out as a license upgrade. We're talking 100cc bikes that may run 75 MPH through the 2. Make him do it over again?
Stan
-
DW I must dissagree with you. The rookie run is still restricted to between 125 and 150. If it is an open record with a speed of 150 or less and the competitor and the class is expected to be that low I cannot see a problem. I know it was a long time ago before rookies but my first run at Bonneville was a qualifier on an open record and I backed it up the next day with 2 additional runs. The record ended 125+.
There is nothing to stop a AA/BGMR from going 130 on his first run and going to impound as a rookie and going 165 the next morning and getting a record in an open class. It's still going to take him many more passes to get the record where it belongs and his correct licences. I would rather see that instead of 5 runs in one day and a 275 pass on the last one. You need time to let it sink in.
IMO El Mirage procedures should not dictate how Bonneville is run unless it is put into the rule book.
-
Bubs does not have any such rules. If you can go 300 on your first pass it is okay and it would count for record.
Dan
-
Ah - vive le difference between bikes and cars. And scantioning bodies in that case.
For the record I am with Nathan in that I stand on the side of the 'no record on a rookie's first run' line.
DW
-
I'll chime in one more time...Nathan you continually quoted EMP ans I can agree there but El Mirage is no Bonneville. and we should not expect competitors from other areas who do not run at El Mirage to expect to know them.
If the Bonneville Board of Directors do not want records qualified on in a competitors rookie run then they should put it in a letter given out with an entry and state it on web site. I don't think you should not take any heat or need to state anything other than the rules as stated in the rulebook under records. Your experience on the salt, as was with the folks who gave the rookie orientation before you, is what so valuable to those who have never driven on the salt before.
As we all know that "week" can get awful short and I would have to see a competitor loose a chance at a record because they needed to make an additioal run especially as speeds considered to be slow. Incidents can happen at any speed and we shold always be vigilante to that.
-
Seems to me that the Bonneville rookie orientation procedure on the the SCTA web site is very clear on rookie runs and records runs after they have passed the printed rule. Is everyone over looking this.
-
I'll chime in one more time...Nathan you continually quoted EMP ans I can agree there but El Mirage is no Bonneville. and we should not expect competitors from other areas who do not run at El Mirage to expect to know them.
Actually JD, I only mentioned what's in the EMP to explain to JamesJ why the rookie who qualified for a record on his rookie run at El Mirage had to do it again. I did not say that the written word that's in the EMP applies to Bonneville and I obviously do not expect competitors who do not run at El Mirage to know the EMP. I will say, however, that what we do at El Mirage has carried over to Bonneville and for the past 3 years it has been stated, loudly, by me, that rookies can not qualify for a record on their rookie run. So, if a rookie attends my rookie orientation, which they must, then they should already know that rookie can't (or shouldn't) qualify for a record on their first run.
If the Bonneville Board of Directors do not want records qualified on in a competitors rookie run then they should put it in a letter given out with an entry and state it on web site. I don't think you should not take any heat or need to state anything other than the rules as stated in the rulebook under records.
It currently doesn't say one way or the other in the rule book. I personally like to keep things consistent and uniform so I presume that we do things the same. Like I said, this is how I've been doing it for three years. No one has really complained about it and I've been very lucky to have had the full support of both boards in allowing me to do what I see fit in order to make things safer and smoother.
As we all know that "week" can get awful short and I would have to see a competitor loose a chance at a record because they needed to make an additioal run especially as speeds considered to be slow. Incidents can happen at any speed and we shold always be vigilante to that.
JD, I am as familiar with this as anyone. We practically blow up our turbo flathead banger everytime we run it hard. I learned to accept this as part of racing. You don't always get the record.
-
When you are up grading your lisc. you have to stay in the required bracket or the starter will not sign your ticket and you have to REPEAT the run---we have been there done that for breaking out. have also been given permission to run slightly faster if the record was barely over upper limit of lisc. requirement--- up to the starter and our experience is they do not take that lightly without checking with Chief Starter!!!
-
Having been the chief timer for many years it was standard practice for the starters to tell us a rookie or license upgrade was up. They would tell us what class license or if it was a rookie run.Timing reports back to them at the end of the run with the results and the speeds they ran. Also if anything was unusual or with the driver/rider having problems such as turning out to the wrong direction, not using the chute.
There have been issues with speeds to fast or slow. Depending on the over speed the timer and stewards report to the starters and allow or not. Last year there was a stream liner that ran over the required speeds and had to make several re-runs until they got it right. Judgement calls need to be made on every unusual run at any event.
As I stated earlier look up the operating procedures on the SCTA web page for Bonneville and the rookie requirements.It's the guide lines.
-
"I will say, however, that what we do at El Mirage has carried over to Bonneville and for the past 3 years it has been stated, loudly, by me, that rookies can not qualify for a record on their rookie run."
Nathan, It sounds as if YOU are making a rule. Page 9 under qualifing, it does not mention a rookie at all. On page 13 it only says a rookies first run will not be at full throttle or over 150 and they will have attended the Rookie Orientation Meeting and have a signed sticker. If the rookie run qualifies for a record so be it.
I can't see how you can just pass something over from El Mirage without board approval and it in the rule book. I'm fine with it if it done that way. I attended Rookie Orientation in October with my grandson as he was going to start driving and do not remember hearing that statement.
I'm not trying to be a problem here, IMO it should be in the rule book and if it is to be inforce at the 2011 Bonneville meets it should be approved by the BOD and in writing included in each competitors packet............
-
Guys Remember why --it is a EMP procedure---Threre is a ROOKIE LINE--there is no such thing at B'ville. we are talking about records under 125 mph othewise the person is involved in a lisc up procedure I set a record back in '01 with a lisc run of 249. + and a lisc run of 27? on a 280 min. wasn't a hat but was a record.
I still had my rookie sticker on my helment because at B'ville you have a Rookie MEET--at El M you can't set a record out of the Rookie LINE.
-
I think there will be a rookie course at Bonneville. A 4th course is planned for this and low speed vehicles if there is salt available to have it.
Sparky and others I repeat read the Bonneville rookie orientation procedures on the SCTA web page
-
JD,
This subject is covered in the Bonneville Rookie Manual passed out at rookie meetings at the salt. I have the 2011 version and it is on-line as mentioned at the beginning of this thred. My 2010 is out in the garage, so I don't know if the subject is in there. Check the copy given to your grandson and see.
DW
-
"It should be in the rule book and if it is to be in force at the 2011 Bonneville meet it should be approved by the BOD . . ."
Has it?
-
Now wait a minute.... did i miss something?.... at Bonneville, in order to run on a record or minimum at under 125 mph, one ONLY had to have a drivers licence- in face of which was issued an E class licence....Correct?..... so, is it NOW A RULE that, if a class record is, say, 135 mph, a person cannot raise his licence to a D licence and qualify for the record at the same time by driving 135.001 mph?.... When did THIS happen?
A second and possibly a third issue was also brought up here..... can a licence upgrade run also be a qualifying pass?.... when has it NOT been so?.... we took the record in class up to over 250 mph and the qualifying pass was ALSO a licence upgrade pass! (A to AA)..... HAS THIS ALSO NOW CHANGED?
-
614, I didn't get that from this thread... we also have qualified on a license upgrade pass, several times. What I get from this is your rookie pass is just that... your first pass on the salt, and you should make it as a stand alone familiarization with the course, speed control and the exit. I believe that is the way it should be. Rookies should not expect to be able to qualify on their familiarization pass, at any speed.... including 36 MPH :-o
This is just about rookie run, not any others... now if you are on a license pass, you qualify, but don't do your pass correctly you may not get your license upgrade... which to me means you have another shot at getting the upgrade on your record run....
:cheers:
-
Now wait a minute.... did i miss something?.... at Bonneville, in order to run on a record or minimum at under 125 mph, one ONLY had to have a drivers licence- in face of which was issued an E class licence....Correct?..... so, is it NOW A RULE that, if a class record is, say, 135 mph, a person cannot raise his licence to a D licence and qualify for the record at the same time by driving 135.001 mph?.... When did THIS happen?
A second and possibly a third issue was also brought up here..... can a licence upgrade run also be a qualifying pass?.... when has it NOT been so?.... we took the record in class up to over 250 mph and the qualifying pass was ALSO a licence upgrade pass! (A to AA)..... HAS THIS ALSO NOW CHANGED?
Dave, there have been no changes. All is well.
What I get from this is your rookie pass is just that... your first pass on the salt, and you should make it as a stand alone familiarization with the course, speed control and the exit. I believe that is the way it should be. Rookies should not expect to be able to qualify on their familiarization pass, at any speed.... including 36 MPH
This is just about rookie run, not any others...
Exactly. :cheers:
-
After my Rookie time at El Mirage, I was actually pretty grateful for it. Kiwi, Nathan, DW, Van, Lee were all very supportive making sure I got through safe and just learning the course, procedures, turning off properly, etc. Not having to "worry" about breaking a record was actually very comforting. I did my 125 a couple times, my 150 and then some, all from the Rookie Line.
When I went to Bonneville for the first time, same drill. They all knew I was doing my Rookie passes, even without a Rookie line.
The whole Rookie procedure is just common sense. It's very safe, fun, practical and helps you get your head wrapped around the whole venue. In fact, every new crew person that comes with us, I typically go to the Rookie event with them, just in case something new is said and to help them along.
If Rookies are more concerned about setting records on their first couple runs instead of learning our sport safely, then they should be asked to leave. Just saying. There's plenty of time for Rookies to get records, except their first few times out.
Now, it's time for my pudding cup. Enjoy your day, relax and lets go race, SAFELY please. :cheers:
-
Last year at Bonneville I was the timer for the short course (course #3) and had about 125 rookies, the starter would tell me this will be a rookie pass by car #xxx or bike xxx and please watch his pass for good control, good exit speed and what was his top speed at 3 mile, and if required for that class record, did he use his parachute, if those requirements are not met then we would require them to run again! One main problem last year was the rookies did not carry enough speed when exiting the race course, then I would have to put a hold on the race course till our patrols towed them off to the return road, I realize its a judgement case trying to figure out how much speed to carry during engine shut down and heading for the return road, so no one gets mad a rookie, its just a learning experience on their 1st run, to get thier head together for the 2nd run. Dave :cheers:
-
LOVE the third cousrse a B'Ville great for lisc up-- we would have never been able to get 2 guys to a AA lisc with out it! in 09
-
Dave --
Are the rookies driving their chase vehicles on that specific course prior to their runs as part of their orientation?
And on another note -- it's sometimes surprising to see the variance in angles the turn-outs may have from year to year. And the angle they meet the return road, in particular. One year it was 90ยบ making for some surprising exits.
Stan
-
Stan, yes each day we shut down the #3 race course for the "rookie orientation", which let them drive down the course with their push truck (with CBs) to see the layout of mile markers, condition of salt and what the turn outs looked like, it was like a parade with all those rookies, and I hate to complain, but last year the turn outs on that course were to gentle, more for high speed streamliners than for slow rookies or folks upping the licenses, we need steeper 180 degree turn outs for the rookies to get away from the race course. Hopefully this year it will improve, also I think the salt will not have pressure ridges, so you really can turn out anywhere you please and make your own 180 degree turn-out with good speed, with my Avanti I usually turn off the race course at around 80 mph and with my car weighing 4,200 lbs (750 lbs ballast) it carrys me easily to the return road and then some. Also if a rookie realizes he didn't clear the track, we don't mind him re-starting the engine and idle off to the return road, this will keep the racers and the starters happy so the next vehicle can race. Dave :cheers:
-
Speaking of Rookie Orientation, I found this pic of the group I had last year. :-o
-
Okay getting very close. For a rookie run or two, is there a prescribed speed we are supposed to run? I do not have a sppedo so I have list of RPM in gear X for 80 and 100 MPH or just leg it out? This is my first time at SW, I've got a decent amount of passes under my belt at Maxton with the bike but knowing is good
-
Your first licensing pass has to be over 125 and under 150. If your bike runs under 125 let her rip.
-
Now, we get into the touchy area. The initial records I'm going after are under 100, I've gone as fast as 134 and change MPS and 125 Naked at Maxton so we should just leg it out pretty good then. SCTA has never inspected but ECTA has been over it twice so I trust I'll be good. Thanks for the insight. Got no problem getting off the course under our own power, never ridden on the salt so I'll be a little wary of making the corner the first time. Thanks
-
The "corners" are gradual -- and there's no pressure to take the first one. Don't sweat it. You'll see it all during orientation.
-
Now I got another question, I read something about 'sitting up' being a problem I use that to aid braking road racing (I'm a big guy) all the time and have done it with the ECTA plenty should be the same on the Salt?
-
At your speeds sit up whenever you want to.
FREUD
-
Bill Warner is the name that comes to my mind when I think of "sitting up" at the end of a run.
Don't do it Bill!
DW
-
I usually start sitting up at about 200, fully up by 175. :-D I dont use the brakes at all and turn out in a mile. Dont down shift to slow down either.
-
Now things are not sounding as daunting. Still have to keep focus and be serious but more information is good
-
Now things are not sounding as daunting. Still have to keep focus and be serious but more information is good
The secret is to do what "you" feel comfortable with. I typically wait till about 120 to lift my head and then slowly scrub speed (like Fred does above).
But really, just do what you feel best with, do it slowly at first until you feel you have your groove.
Be safe and have fun!!! :cheers:
-
Thanks, never been to the salt, have experience with Maxton but I understand everything is different on the salt.
-
JUst remember that throttle works both ways! :wink: