Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: 4-barrel Mike on June 05, 2011, 02:31:24 PM
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Subtitled: "Modifications of Vintage 4 and Vintage 4 Flathead blocks to be used in SCDTA/BNI Competition Classes"
18-page guide was on the SCTA site yesterday morning, but gone now???
Or did I get up too early this morning?* :mrgreen:
Mike
*Found some good pieces at the swapmeet at 7am, 70 miles down the road.
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Mike,
Be patient, we are working out a few bugs.
Will give you heads up when final, as promised when I met you at Portland.
Mike
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Thanks Mike! :cheers:
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18 pages? Really? This has got to be something.
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It can be done in only 18 pages?
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VintageRaceCar
Not sure if you are the correct person but it would be nice if the previous years photos and results were back on the site for Bonneville and the Finals as well. I used them for reference many times.
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JamesJ,
They are all still there.
On the SCTA Home Page scroll down to "ARCHIVES".
Will give you 3 options, Bonneville, El Mirage, World Finals.
Scroll over either one, will give you all the archived years.
Click on the desired year and look at the Results or Pics.
Hope that will help. Thanks,
Mike
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Mike, A fly on the wall told me that billet heads are no longer legal in V4F. Is this true or just hearsay? Tony
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Tony,
You are a strange fellow. I can't understand, nor do I listen to the Flies on the wall.
Billet, Epoxy, Plexiglass, Wood etc.. ALL LEGAL, but maybe NOT GOOD for a V4F head!!!!
No Worries Tony. Count the Hours before Post.
Thanks,
Mike
PS: What V4F engine are you building? Send some pics my way. E-mail is in RB.
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Mike, I am not building any V4 or V4F stuff. I did design a head and multi-lift system for a V4F racer that might be out on the salt this year. But I have no involvement in that car other than the designs I did. I guess my fly was a little tipsy on the vino this evening. By the way I also watch ant poop hit the ground and read tealeaves sometimes. I guess I have too much time on my hands. :evil: Tony
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It's baaaack! http://www.scta-bni.org/pdf/SCTA.V4.V4F.Guide.pdf (http://www.scta-bni.org/pdf/SCTA.V4.V4F.Guide.pdf)
Only 12 pages this time.
Mike
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Well Folks as 4-barrel Mike said, THE V4/V4F GUIDE is up !!!
Can be viewed on the SCTA Home Page. Just click the link and there it goes.
Let us know what you think.
Easy, general and non personal V4/V4F engine related
questions are OK on here for now.
For specifics regarding yours or someone else's engine
please send e-mail as listed in Guide.
Thanks again,
Mike
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Mike,
Yes, only 12 pages. Same info as previously, just cleaned up a bit.
Corrected the spelling, changed size of the font and straightened up the format.
Thanks,
Mike
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That seems much simpler and leaves much less room for bending the rules.
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That seems much simpler and leaves much less room for bending the rules.
I don't know if this will stop bending the rules. As well intended the rules may be, I think all it will due is drive the costs up as racers look to get around them. Eventually the only way to be competitive will be to spend more $$$ to keep up. My guess is these rules will give a two year window before some engines that have exploited the new rules show up, and I hope I am wrong. I have no dog in this. Tony
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Here is an option.
Don't bend or look around the rules. Keep your costs down. What do you win by expending ungodly sums of money on an 80 year old engine? This class doesn't excite me at all.
DW
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I think it's kind of a fun class because it gives guys who have no money a chance to build and run a Hot Rod. Of course when the big dollar guys jump in it's no better than any other class. But if you always wanted to make your own flat head for a '32 Plymouth, where else are you going to go?
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Here is an option.
Don't bend or look around the rules. Keep your costs down. What do you win by expending ungodly sums of money on an 80 year old engine? This class doesn't excite me at all.
DW
I agree with you, and it doesn’t exit me either but just look at what stuff costs these days. I am not talking about swap meet parts or ebay parts. But to be competitive you’re going to need them.
5 main crank, rods and pistons $4000
Girdle for the block $2000
Dry sump pump $1000
Titanium valves 800
Water pump $500
Cam and mag or other ignition $1000
To be competitive you will need a custom billet head $2000
Your already at 10K and haven’t done any machine work, dyno time or other parts, and it only goes up from here. Take a look at the V4F street roadster that holds the record, it has a custom cast head, and that couldn’t be cheap even if they paid themselves .50 cents per hour. I presume these rules were put because of three engines. But like I said before I give it a few years before something shows up that will test the rules again. Maybe I am wrong, but its an observation I have. For this kind of money I would buy a old cup motor and wring it. But some like the challenge of building the vintage iron. Tony
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I would agree that somewhere someone is thinking of a way around these very good rules, or something else that hasn't come up yet that will cause much hate and discent. And I don't expect to set any records anyway. But the Plymouth slipped in there for a short time as a record holder. And 113.7 whatever isn't bad for a 32 Plymouth powered roadster. Didn't need and special crank or girdle. No dry sump or exotic valves. Yes I spent some time cutting up a head for it. But that was because it was what I wanted to do at the time. For most of the V4 people it's the journey. Not the destination, that's important. Some other people have fun in a different way. Fine. What a country. At least we still get to have fun.
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Dan- is your lack of interest due to the 12 pages of rules? Put that motor in a "street roadster" and the certification line could held up for days. I'll be there to help as usual!
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That seems much simpler and leaves much less room for bending the rules.
I don't know if this will stop bending the rules. As well intended the rules may be, I think all it will due is drive the costs up as racers look to get around them. Eventually the only way to be competitive will be to spend more $$$ to keep up. My guess is these rules will give a two year window before some engines that have exploited the new rules show up, and I hope I am wrong. I have no dog in this. Tony
Sorry, I was being sarcastic.
I have to face the fact that my sarcasm is misplaced. Rich is right, it is the fun that counts.
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Zenndog, nothing to be sorry about. I was also merely pointing a fact out as most rules start with good intentions and end up doing something ells. I also agree with Rich about the path to get there. Tony
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Yep, that's right. V4/V4F engine classes are boring as hell and don't excite anybody!
But then lets look at these stats:
Results for the June 12, 2011 El Mirage Meet
Total # of Entries 100 (even, that's right)
Motorcycle Entries 42
Car Entries 58
Out of these 58 Car Entries 7 where powered by either a V4 or V4F engine.
That's right guys 7 out of 58. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There where 9 Records broken by Car Entries, 2 of these Records where broken by
Car Entries with a V4F engine.
Congratulations to Billy Lattin for a New Record of 99.737 MPH in V4F/VGALT
Congratulations to Eric Nelson for a New Record of 138.551 MPH in V4F/FMR
A Record which was held by David and Joe Murray for 8 Years !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now tell me those two guy's didn't get some excitement out of their Records.
Our V4/V4F Community is over 65 people strong. That's former and current Record
Holders, Current Drivers and Car Owners. Yep, Rich Fox and 4-barrel Mike are included.
Guess you have to understand what it's all about and not dream about running a
worn out cup motor (or maybe a new one some day).
There is just something about making an 80 year old engine go fast. With parts you have
designed and a lot of them even made. "WHAT A COUNTRY"
But some people will never get it !!
How about you guys play with your "Store Bought Crap" and quit picking on us.
Inspecting and certifying V4/V4F engines will hopefully not be to much trouble.
At least you know what to look for now. What's Permitted and what's Prohibited.
Was there on Sunday in El Mirage when both V4F Records came in, don't remember
anybody by the name Steve being there to help us.
Mike
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Mike,
I 'get it'. I didn't say that no one is excited about banger records, just me.
Funny thing about certifing those two records last Sunday. When I asked if the engines met the criteria of the manual I was told by the experts that sure, they are OK. The manual was not brought into play, just a external visual inspection. I think of 12 wasted pages of rules...
BTW, the deck height was measured by Miller taking off his shoe and saying the blocks were in compliance.
DW
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Dan; I understand your frustration with rules that cannot be enforced. But a lot of what BNI/SCTA does is on the honour system. And for the most part this is a guide to let builders know what is expected of them. We had a more or less agreed upon set of restrictions that were word of mouth. Different people understood those in different ways and some seemed to ignore them entirely. So now we have new, written down guidelines. Hopefully they will only effect V4/V4F builders and you will not get involved in impound. If I think somebody is fudging on these rules I'll do what I allways have. Nothing. What almost everybody does.
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Let me be very clear on this subject.
There are some rules I disagree with. There are many, many battles I have fought in relation to rules over my 45+ years. Some won, more lost. There are rules voted on and passed each year in which the voters put their hand in your pocket which is wrong. There are rules passed that are not well researched or the impact studied.
This manual was written, as Rich says, to bring the tribal knowledge into the public forum and give guidelines to those that run in the V4/V4F classes. I have no beef with the number of classes or the speed of the records, heck one year we had the slowest and fastest record with the same rider/driver at one meet. That was fun. I appreciate everyone that puts wheels on the track and I am always there to certify your record and be the first to shake your hand.
OK, my rant is over. Lets get to the racing.
DW
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Hey Dan...The best thing about banger runs is they will never hurt the course and turn off early :-D
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Well -- I guess we're not counting Creel's "There's a starter on the course" episode.
Stan
("How's the crank look?")
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("How's the crank look?")
I'm waiting until Anthony Weiner sends a picture.
FREUD
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If I get lucky enough to hit the record this year with my BBC, I am putting my Early Old's back in the Studebaker.
It took us nine years to figure out the bearing problem's, and it will never get a record, but it sure is fun to play with and I think given good air it may go 230.
It went 219 with 7200' air so maybe..............
My point is that for some of us it is just as much fun making an anchor run as other people have blowing KB's up.
Plus, only us old fart's can even guess what the motor is............. :evil: