Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: desotoman on May 16, 2011, 02:13:23 PM
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I need “clarification on the push bar rule” before I build one of these for my Modified Roadster. The following picture shows the push bar on a Roadster that just set a new record at El Mirage.
The 2011 SCTA Rule book, Car Competition Specifications, Section 2.I Push Bars, page 20 states,
“All cars incapable of starting under their own power shall be equipped with bumpers or push bars. Push Bars shall not offer any aerodynamic advantage. No horizontal paneling is allowed between the rear of the body and the bumper / push bar. No tow starts are permitted from the starting line without special approval. All cars shall be equipped with a push bar or a readily available tow attachment.”
I'm not sure if there is an aero advantage, but how far out from the body are you allowed to put horizontal paneling with holes in it? Could I extend it another 6 or 12 inches? How much flat paneling is allowed as long as it has holes in it? What is the percentage of horizontal surface that must not be exceeded? Is there a height requirement for the push bar?
Any help appreciated,
Tom G.
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I can't wait to see where this one goes! :mrgreen:
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Didn't Roy Fjastad's 777 modified roadster have a push bar that looked like a wing? I believe that gfisher, the current owner of the roadster, mentioned that to me. Doesn't mean it's legal, I'm just asking.
EDIT: Here's a pic
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How in the H could that possibly be considered a horizontal panel? It looks 2 or 3 degrees off to me!
Stan
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Where is the tribal knowledge on this subject? What percentage of the surface area of the flat plate has to be drilled for this to be legal? Do the holes have to be located within a certain portion of the flat plate? The picture looks to be no more than 5-10 percent of the area of the flat plate. Is that what the percentage is? Someone must know.
Tom G.
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Where there is a rule, there is always an LSR racer looking for a way around it!! :-D
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Tom,
Contact Russ Eyres per my suggestion. You won't get an answer here. Second thought, you will get an answer and it may be the one you want.
DW
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Tom, From what Russ told me it is legal to run as long as it doesn't touch back of the body and their are holes drilled in it. Somewhere in my files I have his email conforming this. Tony
Picture by Woody.
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For General information, I sent an email to Kiwi Steve and Russ. Kiwi Steve told me to contact DW, which I did. DW told me it was legal because of holes and to contact SCTA rule clarification at SCTA website which I did. SCTA website got back to me and said they had forwarded it to the Roadster committee. I still have not heard from Russ and I emailed him direct and SCTA forwarded him the question I sent to them. So I guess it is in Russ's hands now for a clarification on what I can or cannot do.
Thanks,
Tom G.
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Tom,
Can't you see that this is a very "multi-functional" down force device. It looks like it weights a ton, they have a block of lead bolted to the bottom, it possibly, maybe, kind of, almost could generated some aero down force, it is a push bar and most importantly you can use the holes to hold your Starbucks while you are waiting in line!!! If you ask me, and you shouldn't , every car should have one.
Don't forget to measure the bottom of the Starbuck's venti cup before you drill the holes.
Rex
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summ u roadster guys velly velly trickee :-D
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Man, I could use one of those to sit on waiting for the push truck/cold beer delivery after a run.
And no, climbing back into the car is not a option with a 25 gallon tank of hot water in the passenger seat...............
Maybe I could make a fold down one.................... :roll: Bob
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Make it retractable....
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In keeping with the most recent modified roadster rules, I think that the surface should not cover more than 65% of the perimeter, that is, it should have 35% holes :evil: ( and not a bunch of really small ones). vic
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Oh look! Another one just like the other one!! :-o
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I was thinking more like 5 holes at maybe 1/4 inch. LOL.
Really though this is a Tribal knowledge rule. It is very clear in the rule book that No horizontal paneling is allowed. Does not say anything about horizontal paneling being OK if it is drilled. In fact if I wanted to use a piece of lattice paneling it would still be illegal because it is paneling. IMO this does not help the people who are thinking the SCTA is a good old boys club, especially when someone out of state builds by the rule book then comes to Bonneville and sees a car in their class setting records with a tribal knowledge rule.
We (SCTA) need to correct the rule book, one way or the other when these things come up. It really is for the good of the SCTA. IMO
Thanks,
Tom G.
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Tom,
http://www.scta-bni.org/Forms/rulechg2010.html
DW
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Tom,
I think you're wrong.
The Rule Book does not have to be corrected -- just enforced.
Somehow I don't read into it that horizontal paneling with holes in it (how big?) is legal. It's still horizontal paneling.
Stan
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Tom,
I guess it is how you read the rule...
“All cars incapable of starting under their own power shall be equipped with bumpers or push bars. Push Bars shall not offer any aerodynamic advantage. No horizontal paneling is allowed between the rear of the body and the bumper / push bar. No tow starts are permitted from the starting line without special approval. All cars shall be equipped with a push bar or a readily available tow attachment.”
some must be reading that between means connected to both
you are probably reading it to mean in between
You just need to get closer to the inner circle.... :evil:
:cheers:
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Tom,
I guess it is how you read the rule...
“All cars incapable of starting under their own power shall be equipped with bumpers or push bars. Push Bars shall not offer any aerodynamic advantage. No horizontal paneling is allowed between the rear of the body and the bumper / push bar. No tow starts are permitted from the starting line without special approval. All cars shall be equipped with a push bar or a readily available tow attachment.”
some must be reading that between means connected to both
you are probably reading it to mean in between
You just need to get closer to the inner circle.... :evil:
:cheers:
So the pictured cars have BUMPERS that are not attached to the body? Very clever. I am one of those out of state guys starting a car, no shenanigans from me. Those int eh know realize us South Dakotans NEVER show up with things outside the box.........................
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Russ Eyres has determined that the horizontal panel must be a min. of 1" from the body. Meets the letter in his opinion, roadsters only of course.
DW
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Dan, All I have ever gotten when clicking on this link youy provided http://www.scta-bni.org/Forms/rulechg2010.html is a box outline with a red X in the upper corner.
I have heard from others that they have the same problem. Can this be corrected? vic
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Works for me.
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Works for me Vic.
Just go to the website: www.scta-bni.org
Click Rules and Regs in left column, change form is at bottom of page.
You fixing this rule?
DW
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Nope, not fixing anything. Just interested in this post (because I'm especially interested in all tribal knowledge) and thought since you referenced the link I'd ask. I have never been able to open that link, with various of my computers, and did once request a board member send me a copy by email link, but never heard back. I have a clarification request in to a committee chair by email, with an explanation of why I did the request without the referenced form, but havn't heard back. If I had a copy, I'd use it. vic
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Russ Eyres has determined that the horizontal panel must be a min. of 1" from the body. Meets the letter in his opinion, roadsters only of course.
DW
I have not heard anything from Russ yet, but when I do I will let everyone know.
Tom G.
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Tom,
I guess it is how you read the rule...
“All cars incapable of starting under their own power shall be equipped with bumpers or push bars. Push Bars shall not offer any aerodynamic advantage. No horizontal paneling is allowed between the rear of the body and the bumper / push bar. No tow starts are permitted from the starting line without special approval. All cars shall be equipped with a push bar or a readily available tow attachment.”
some must be reading that between means connected to both
you are probably reading it to mean in between
You just need to get closer to the inner circle.... :evil:
:cheers:
Stainless,
It is like reading the Bible, everyone has there own interpretation. LOL. For me it means no horizontal panel from the rear of the body to the face of the push bar. I am sure that was the original intent, since roadsters had bumpers about 1/4 inch thick. Well that is the way I interpret it. I guess we will see. If my interpretation is not correct I will build one and push the envelope even further.
Thanks for your reply,
Tom G.
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Vic,
I just tried once again and the web site and form opened just fine for me.
DW
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Dan, you're not using my computer... The web site has always worked fine for me EXCEPT for being able to open the two forms on that page.
Back to tribal knowledge. vic
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Dan, you're not using my computer... The web site has always worked fine for me EXCEPT for being able to open the two forms on that page.
Back to tribal knowledge. vic
Vic if you would like I can print a few copies of that form out for you.
Come see me sometime,,, The Stude is doing well,, blew "E" motor at Maxton in April, put in back up 2 bbl C motor for May and ran 176, 176, 176, 177, 176, 175 ... 6 good runs,, waiting for parts to rebuild the E motor for Loring and Bonneville.
Charles
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Opens for me, used Firefox and internet explorer on two different computers.
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Charles, are you coming to Speedweek or World of Speed?
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Be`tween´
prep. 1. In the space which separates; betwixt; as, New York is between Boston and Philadelphia.
If you look at the following pictures, you will see a round piece of tubing extending out of the body of the roadster. Off of that round tubing is attached what looks like a square or rectangular piece of tubing the same size as the round tubing that extends the width of the car to the round piece of tubing that is extending out of the body on the other side. This in my opinion is the push bar. If you look close enough you will see that the piece of square or rectangular tubing which is the push bar does not extend back to where the holes are drilled, as you can look through the holes and not see the tubing being continued back that far.
Isn't the flat plate exactly what the rule book is talking about as it starts very near the rear of the roadster body and continues forward to encompass the front of the push bar.
Tom G.
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To me it looks like part of the frame structure of the roadster, to which the bumper is attached. :cheers: Tony
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Charles, are you coming to Speedweek or World of Speed?
Fred, I had a ride to WOS,, that fell through.. I have the time off and can get there,,, so yes WOS is the plan as long as we get the E motor done in time for Loring to test for WOS ( I blew the E motor in April at Maxton) Block has just arrved, I am taking it to the motor shop Wednesday.
Charles
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To me it looks like part of the frame structure of the roadster, to which the bumper is attached. :cheers: Tony
I could go for that, but I dont think that anyone would care if it was like that without the paneling on top of it.
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While there are now three pages of complaints I submitted a rule change request. You too can do the same.
DW
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Off of that round tubing is attached what looks like a square or rectangular piece of tubing the same size as the round tubing that extends the width of the car to the round piece of tubing that is extending out of the body on the other side. This in my opinion is the push bar.
Tom, I'll offer up my thoughts as another perspective here.
I don't agree with you that the square tubing is the push bar. To me, that entire "thing" hanging off the back of the car is the push bar. That isn't paneling on top of those round and square tubes. That looks to be a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate. I can see that big giant plate offering up two things: ballast and structural strength. Paneling in my eyes would be sheet metal that's in place to fill the gap between the body and the push bar should there be a gap at all to begin with. I see no gap between the back of the body and the push bar and I see no sheet metal in place to fill a gap that isn't there.
Paneling would be 16 gauge sheet metal that might have louvers punched in it and is held in place my dzus fasteners. That big piece of plate is welded on, isn't it?
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"It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." POTUS #42
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Tom, I'll offer up my thoughts as another perspective here.
I don't agree with you that the square tubing is the push bar. To me, that entire "thing" hanging off the back of the car is the push bar. That isn't paneling on top of those round and square tubes. That looks to be a piece of 1/2" thick steel plate. I can see that big giant plate offering up two things: ballast and structural strength. Paneling in my eyes would be sheet metal that's in place to fill the gap between the body and the push bar should there be a gap at all to begin with. I see no gap between the back of the body and the push bar and I see no sheet metal in place to fill a gap that isn't there.
Paneling would be 16 gauge sheet metal that might have louvers punched in it and is held in place my dzus fasteners. That big piece of plate is welded on, isn't it?
I took another look at the first pic and would like to further my point. The big piece of plate is a structural part of the push bar. If you look below it it appears that additional ballast is in fact bolted to it and the parachute is anchored to it. That plate is a structural part of the car.
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Nathan,
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject. I am still waiting for a reply from Russ. Maybe he is really busy right now and doesn't have time to answer. If I don't hear from him by Monday I will call him.
I never have thought of a "panel" having a specific thickness, but I have thought of a "sheet" of metal being measured by a gauge type of measurement with the thickest being around 10 gauge.
Thanks,
Tom G.
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Nathan, me boy. I really doubt if you think that is necessarily part of the push bar. I don't think that car has a flat-pan Hydro, but ask your dad about the joke from the 50's about the Hydramatics getting push started at 35 mph. That one would survive.
I've got a lot of respect for your opinions on this forum, but I think you may have missed the mark on this one. No way is that needed for structural strength. It is a panel -- even if it's 2" thick. But it's also not the only one. That's what I'm talking about.
Stan
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Stan, I appreciate the kind words but I think this highlights what some savy racers do better than others and that's pushing grey areas in the rule book. Obviously the intent of the rule is to prevent horizontal paneling from being placed behind the back of a car for aerodynamic purposes (a pseudo-wing or spoiler). The rule is presuming that the competitor is in fact using a tubular push bar that is some distance away from the back of the car to begin with. What I don't think it says distinctly in the rule book is that push bars must be tubular and not plate to begin with. I don't think the plate was needed for structural strength but that is what it's providing.
Our ancient roadster has a push bar made out of 3x3 square tubing that also has the 'chute anchored to it. I don't see anything that prevents someone from making their push bar out of 2x8 rectangular tubing. The long side of the tube is 8" of chord of an aerodynamic element in effect, wouldn't ya say? This is where I shrug my shoulders.
If the intent is to prevent aerodynamic advantages, I question whether or not horizontal paneling mounted that low on a car offers any kind of advantage.
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"If the intent is to prevent aerodynamic advantages, I question whether or not horizontal paneling mounted that low on a car offers any kind of advantage."
That's right -- you and I don't know. And if it did, would it do it on every style of roadster. Why not mount it 30" above the ground, tie it into the headrest fairing, put a couple of 1/4" holes in it, make sure your truck has the bumper the same height (a 4WD would do), and cover all the rest of the decklid. A hell of a pushbar, and functional, too.
Nathan, it's getting harder and harder to identify a roadster. This crap has gone too far. A little slip here and another here and pretty soon it's the norm. You, too, have seen it happen.
Give me a call and I'll tell you how I really feel. About flush doors, flush coupe' pillars, flush gas tank lids, etc.
And -- Stan Back
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Stan,
Here is a video of a coupe in the wind tunnel, 2:20 shows the rear airflow. I wonder what the smoke trail would look like without a top and spoiler. I cannot find one for a Roadster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PoIoQNIoMQ&feature=related
Tom G.
PS. I got a ruling from Russ on this subject and will post it when I have time.
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I think this highlights what some savy racers do better than others and that's pushing grey areas in the rule book. Obviously the intent of the rule is to prevent horizontal paneling from being placed behind the back of a car for aerodynamic purposes (a pseudo-wing or spoiler). The rule is presuming that the competitor is in fact using a tubular push bar that is some distance away from the back of the car to begin with. What I don't think it says distinctly in the rule book is that push bars must be tubular and not plate to begin with. I don't think the plate was needed for structural strength but that is what it's providing.
If the intent is to prevent aerodynamic advantages, I question whether or not horizontal paneling mounted that low on a car offers any kind of advantage.
Pretty much what Russ said about this push bar, although it may push the limit of legality since it is mounted so close to the body (one of the posts on this thread said a minimum of 1 inch from the body), I don't know if the holes make up for that amount of area. Russ said the purpose of the “no horizontal paneling” portion of the rule is to insure that there is no air seal between the body surface and the push bar surface. .I asked about specific heights for push bars to be mounted off the bottom of the body, along with length and width. I was told it is up to me, but to remember no Aero advantages would be allowed.
I personally don't want to interpret the rule book for others, so I would suggest to anyone who is thinking of building one of these push bars for a Roadster to contact Russ and tell him what you are thinking of building.
Tom G.