Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: javajoe79 on April 25, 2011, 07:34:08 PM
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So we were running some wheels made by a popular custom steel wheel builder. We had major wheel stud failure that didn't make much sense until we talked to the wheel builder. They said that unless we had a 7" or better hub face, that the studs would break just like they did for us.
So for starters has anyone heard of that happening? Next question is, who can I get a set of solid center land speed wheels from in a hurry. We are trying to make the May event and don't have time to wait 6 weeks like they told us.
Seems like the fact that these wheels need a 7" hub to back them up should be well noted in the details from the builder. Anyone have any insight on that?
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Call Bob Sage at TheWheelSmith... he can make them and ship in the same week.
He is now in Corona CA. 1-800-854-8937
Tell him they are for Land Speed Racing 360 degree welded,,, he can also weld your moon disc dzus tabs if you use them.
Tell him Charles Venable in NC sent you..
Oh by the way if you are using 15" wheels you can use my Moon Disc Dzus Template,,, it is there in his shop,,, all you have to do is call Chico at Moon Eyes and order the Dzus Tab Kit and have them drop shipped to The Wheel Smith...
good luck
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Thanks Charles, we are on the phone with them right now. Hopefully we will see you in May at Maxton.
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Please explain 7in hub face...thanks...............
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The other issue I might mention. I purchased steel wheels from Wheelsmith's and told them they were for LSR. They were welded 360 degrees as needed, but the taper for the lugnuts on the wheels was 60 degrees. Most nuts with 1" hex are 90 degrees, so you may have to change that taper.
John
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The other issue I might mention. I purchased steel wheels from Wheelsmith's and told them they were for LSR. They were welded 360 degrees as needed, but the taper for the lugnuts on the wheels was 60 degrees. Most nuts with 1" hex are 90 degrees, so you may have to change that taper.
John
We spoke with wheelsmith last night and they mentioned the lug seat angle and that it could be whatever we needed it to be.
What type of wheel did you guys get from wheelsmith? The smoothie or the solid plate center?
The diameter of the hub or in our case the brake rotor hat, where the back of the wheel mates up, according to them is supposed to be 7.5" minimum. When we ordered these wheels, we made it clear what we were doing with them, land speed racing. Not once did they mention that their wheels require a 7.5" hub. Nowhere on their website mentions it either. When we contacted him after the incident and described what happened, he said he knew right away what was wrong and that he has had plenty of people have the same issue.
Now don't you think if this was a known issue, it is something that they as the wheel builder should make known to their customers?
His defense was that they make stock car wheels and stock cars all use a big hub like that and he sold us stock car wheels.
Our defense is that we told him what we were doing, never said we were running stock car hubs but he sold us wheels that have certain requirements as far as hub size goes and never said a word about it even though he knew it could be a problem and has had alot of customers have the same issue.
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That vendor apparently can't spell kustoomer searvice. :?
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What JWW 36 said
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Well we spoke with Bassett Wheels today too. They were very helpful and they knew who we were talking about before we even told them who it was.
They also gave us info about using a backing plate and where to get them.
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Javajoe;
I've been very happy with Bassett Wheels. Before I ordered my rear wheels from them, I talked to them on the phone and asked about rear brake caliper clearance; he said "What calipers are you using?" I said 4-piston Porsche/Brembo radial-mount calipers (not exactly a garden-variety application!) and he said "No problem-- they'll clear OK." Just like that-- no "I'll have to look that up" or "I dunno". I wasn't real sure that his answer was correct but I placed an order anyway. Bottom line-- Bassett does know what they're talking about. The calipers cleared just fine. :-)
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Beware who you buy your wheels from - we called a supposed "reputable" manufacturer who says he makes land speed racing wheels. We told him what we were running, where we were running, etc., etc., and he sold us a set of wheels...... unfortunately, he left out the fact that his wheels are only safe on hub diameters greater than 7"....... and then laughed at me when I called and told him the wheel came loose and busted off all five lugs when we were launching on a 200+mph pass... he said "hahaha - well I guess you are getting a lesson from the school of hard knocks. Too bad it cost you so much!" He didn't even offer us a discount on replacement wheels......
I don't know about you, but where I'm from a man could get his @$$ kicked for saying something like that......
On a better note - some more info about Bassett from my conversation with them today:
- great guys to work with - very helpful - extremely knowledgable!
- they are very interested in making wheels for the land speed crowd!
- they make everything in house and use real spinnings for their centers, not center stampings they have bought for the lowest price (call and ask them what their runout specs are and then ask other wheel builders what runout specs they gurantee)
- their custom wheels are about the same price as others "off the shelf" wheels!
I like honest people who know what they are talking about and ensure they are getting their customers the right products!
[/list]
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I went to the shop and measured my wheels---Taylor's 7" machiened surface-- Marsh --had a ring at 6 7/8" that had loss the paint---
I agree could have been ugly with that kind off a SA remark!!!! ASK some guy in CA that splines used axles!!!!
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Is Taylors still in business? All the buildings around them have been demolished and the property sold.
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They were suppose to relocate and bring one of their kids in the bus. I will call Chuck and find out.
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I'm a newbie, but I found this post very interesting. I'm in the process of building a 1934 gas roadster and purchased Wheelsmith wheels about a year ago. I'm using Performance Friction rotors and hats. After reading this blog, I measured the face of the hats @ 6.5", and the "flat ring" on the inside of the wheel with an ID of about the same.
QUESTION - The guys who have responded to this post that have had stud problems, Are you using the lug nuts to LOCATE the wheel on the hub? I.E., if you have a centering ring that LOCATES the wheel on the hub, and you are just using the lug nuts to keep the wheel tight. Might this eleviate this stud problem?
Another question - Can spacers be machined that go behind the wheel into the gap behind the lugnut so the wheels, so that when lugnuts are tightened, they are being tightened against these spacers instead of an air gap?
John
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Hello John,
I found out that there are 1/8" thick support plates that are made to fit whatever bolt pattern your hubs use and are large enough to support the NASCAR wheels which have a larger ring.... It is one of the first things that Bassett asked me about (and the other guy failed to mention even though I told him exactly what our setup was). The guys at Bassett assured me that this is a perfectly acceptable combination to support the wheel.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we are required to use 1" lug nuts, and almost all of them utilize a 90deg. seat. Most wheels are built for 60deg lug nuts, so make sure the seats in your wheels are set up for 90deg lug nuts.
Kix
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Kix;
Thanks for the info. One more thing to do, but one less item to worry about.
While we are on the subject of wheels, I thought I would give share my wheel truing adventures. When I first indicated the wheels on hubs, I found they were .020" to .030" out of round. Jack Underwood of Jack's Garage fame said, "Not good enough. I want them within .002" to .003"" The first thing I did was pin the hub so wheels went on exactly the same every time. I then mounted wheels and hubs to axle and set up a grinder to true bead. I showed somebody a picture of the setup, and they said it was a real Rube Goldberg apparatus. I'd never heard of the guy, so I asked if he was in the 200 MPH club!
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Another picture of locating pins.
John
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Rube Goldberg wheel truing set up.
John
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Whatcha gonna do when you find the tread is .030 off-center?
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The first thing I did was pin the hub so wheels went on exactly the same every time.
Do you mean they are indexed (like using a dowel) so the same stud sees the exact same hole each time? (if yes, why 5 pins?) Or do you mean the pins force the wheel to be exactly centered and the studs just clamp in place?
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This is why we went with making our own wheels and bead locks. Tony
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One more thing to remember about Bassett wheels or any other stock car wheels-- the standard circle track studs are 5/8" dia, not 1/2" or 7/16" or metric. You only have a choice of fine or coarse thread--that's it.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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But Tony, you bought the outer hoops (rims) right? You mean you are only fabricating your centers and welding? If so where do you find the narrow 4" or 4.5" width rim?
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JWW :cheers: I'm a personal friend of Rube Goldberg and he is always available in my garage. When I need him I just turn and look and he is there. I check the run out on my rims right on the car at the spot the will be running. When I feel they are good enough (I'm a student of Jack's Garage) I mount the tire and then start the tire truing procedure.
Rube showed up big time on this by instructing me how to use my table (set on the garage floor) mounted 4" belt sander with "rocks on paper" for grit. I came up with the running vacuum cleaner so the mess isn't so bad. It took some time but my tires are perfectly round and mounted on the same place-same stud every time and they match side to side. To hard to write how this looks but I guarantee it works; and yes 2 different sets got into the 200 mph club. I have them balanced when I'm done.
Any cast wheel I have used, OEM or after market, have been perfect. My 18" aluminum forged wheels from Wheel Vintiques were perfect also. The OEM steels were all under .005" OOR and side to side. Cadillacs put some good wheels under their second generation FWD cars.
Good Luck and remember "if the tire isn't on the groud it is't doing you much good"...........................JD
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But Tony, you bought the outer hoops (rims) right? You mean you are only fabricating your centers and welding? If so where do you find the narrow 4" or 4.5" width rim?
Saltfever, We are building the whole wheel with the characteristics that we need. The fronts are spindle mounts and will have their own hub to mate to our own spindle/bearing design (running through some what if scenarios we just didn't like the Anglia spindle that we were going to originally use and have beefed it up some more with our design). Its all part of a bigger package that needs to work in unison with everything ells. Like jww36 wheels our rear wheels will have alignment pins, and not only will they center on the hub but they will only go on one way. Tony
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Thanks, Tony. Steel or aluminum? Even though you will use alignment pins will they carry load, or is the load taken up, by the rear axle collar in contact with the center of the wheel?
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Another picture of locating pins.
John, there is a slight shoulder, or lip on your pins at the mounting flange face. Is that so they fit into a similar pocket on the back of the rim? Or are they spacing the rim away from the mounting flange? Your pins looked like they are spaced equally symmetrical. How do they insure only one mounting position?
Guys, I am going through this exercise now and all your information is extremely helpful. :-)
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They are billet aluminum and the alignment pins will carry some of the load along with the hub (we are using a trans-axle). I want to really thank Denis Manning for a lot of help in getting all this sorted out and getting us pointed in the right direction. Tony
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Saltfever and others;
Here is what I found on these wheels. I mounted the axle and hub securely to the bench. I then mounted the wheel on the hub and indicated it. I then oriented the wheel 1/5th of a revolution to the next stud and indicated, and so on. Interestingly, when I double checked the first location, it indicated differently then it did the first time! What is happening, believe it or not, the sequence you tighten the lugnuts determines how the wheel is centered on the hub becuase you are using the lug nuts to center wheels. Keep in mind we are talking .020" - .025". My solution to this problem was to center the wheel as best as possible on the hub, tightened. I then made a fixture to hold hub and wheel in mill vise. Indicated the 5 on 5 1/2" holes in wheels and pinned the wheels in that location. That wheel is dedicated to that hub, and will be oriented on that hub the same way every time. Now you can true the wheels. After tires are mounted, I will use an inflatable drum sander to true tires. By the way, these hubs are the front which makes a centering ring difficult. For the rear wheels, I will probably use a centering ring, then true wheels. And El Mirage gets closer!
Guys, I'm a newbie and not an expert. But in the building of my car (see "1934 Ford Gas Roadster" under Build Diaries), I've found that every single thing has to be looked at and addressed. That's what makes this so much fun! :cheers:
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John: thanks for taking the time for the thorough explanation. I now understand all the nuances of the situation. I have been concerned about run-out but not to the level of understanding I now have thanks to both you and Tony. What you are talking about is mounting true to the centerline of the axel. Not necessarily index position (which is irrelevant if you can guarantee zero run-out each time you re-mount the wheel.) What is easily observed, but I had not thought important, is the wheel’s hole clearance around each stud allows a small degree of axial misalignment depending on how the stud is torqued. Since the nuts are tapered, my thinking had been that the tapers would pull the wheel into axial alignment with the axel. Your pins have zero clearance with their mating holes. Therefore, the wheel will register on them each time regardless of index position, pulling it into axial alignment.
Suggestion about the drum sander:
Thanks for mentioning it. Never seen one and just Googled it to find about them. A word of caution about your idea. By design the sander is designed to yield to any kind of discontinuity. Its main purpose is to yield enough to sand non-linear shapes. The bottom line it is flexible, a great idea, and I think I will buy one. But do you really want to use one on $2,000 of Goodyear rubber? Your idea is to shave rubber for perfect concentricity. Your grinding device is a pure datum. As the rubber rotates any out-of-plane mass must be removed. However, if the datum is flexible, or can yield, you will not get the result you wish. It might be best to have our buddy Rube Goldberg set-up a flat plate belt sander in a very rigid set up. As the off-set rubber comes around it will get shaved appropriately.
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Saltfever;
The inflatable drum sanders are made by Dynabrade. Mine is 5" diameter x 3 1/2" in width. If you have access to McMaster-Carr, they have them. Belt size is 3 1/2" x 15 1/2". Once inflated, and at speed, they become fairly rigid. With a 36 grit belt (drum), and slowly spinning the tire against the rotation of the sander, I feel pretty confident the tires will true nicely.
We shall see.
John
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Thanks, I just looked them up . . . another tool to put in the box! :-D PM to follow.
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what and take away the suprise of learning about things that you didn't even know to ask about or check----
I think that is why so our hats hold such special spots in our heart--I know I wouldn't cherish my #73 nearly as much as if do---if I hadn't had the trials and tribulations along the way---to the chase :cheers:
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Kix and others;
This blog on Landracing.com saved my...bacon. Kix, thanks for the info on the .125 7" backup plates. I incorporated my rear wheel centering ring onto backup plate to locate rims on hubs.
John
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Do automotive and motorcycle tires need to have a couple runs (heat cycles) on them to allow for them to seat in and maybe have the rubber take a "set" or do they not change once trued? I wonder if truing releases any kinds of tension etc that the tire holds being new and having a slick mold finish on the tread portion? Reading this thread just made me think about it.
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For what it's worth, I'm going to give you a run down on truing the Wheelsmith wheels I purchased for my Bonneville roadster. All of the wheels are at least .025" out at the bead side to side and up and down. I just called Chris at Wheelsmith to explain the problem. The first thing he told me is it doesn't make a difference if the wheel wobbles, just true the tire so they both wobble the same! No sh.t, that's what he told me. My feeling is if the bead is not concentric, then you mount a tire and true it to be un-concentric, at 230 MPH can your eyeballs stay focused? The other thing he told me is the wheels are lug centric, i.e., the lug nuts locate the wheel on the hub. I'm not an expert, but I spent a whole Saturday with a dial indicator, my wheels and hubs on the axles mounted on a bench. I've mentioned this before but it's worth repeating. What I found, is the sequence that the lug nuts are tightened determines how they locate on the hub. We're not talking about how the wheels are clocked on the hub, we're talking about the lug nuts loosened, then re-tightened a different way changes the run out of the wheel.
Am I being a little too anal here. Should I just put the damn things on my car and run them?
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When we are on the salt and get ready to run one of the things I do for the front wheels is do exactly what you are talking about. I put a 4 x 6 block in front of the tire, tall side up and another block with a straight edge on the side and "play" with the sequence of tightening the lug nuts to get the best run out. It is amazing how much it can change.
Forgot to mention, mine or stud centric wheels
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While on the subject of steel wheel:
If you run aluminum front hubs like a Wilwood Brake kit, you must run a 1/8 inch thick spacer between the wheel and hub or the hub will fracture around the studs. If your wheels are completely flat where they contact the hub, you are ok. The Wilwood part number is 300-7500. I learned this the hard way!!!
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While on the subject of steel wheel:
If you run aluminum front hubs like a Wilwood Brake kit, you must run a 1/8 inch thick spacer between the wheel and hub or the hub will fracture around the studs. If your wheels are completely flat where they contact the hub, you are ok. The Wilwood part number is 300-7500. I learned this the hard way!!!
Joe - are those spacers steel? or is aluminum OK? I have seen a few guys using aluminum...
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Kix;
Aluminum is OK for wheel spacers if you are only using them to increase the track a small amount or need clearance for calipers, ball joints, spindle, etc. If they are used as backing plates for steel wheels, you need a material that is stiff enough to provide a seating plane for the wheel-- one that will remain flat when the lug nuts are torqued up tight. Aluminum is not a good choice; its bending modulus is not as high as steel.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Nix,
The Wilwood part is aluminum. It would be ok for protection if the wheel doesn't need the wide support like the Diamond wheels do.
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Look on the Speedway Motors website-- they have about a dozen steel spacers of various bolt patterns, etc. The prices are about $8 ea.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Proper support for steel wheels is even needed on the Street. I sold a customer a set of new steel wheels when we installed new susp. on his F100. Wheel centers broke. It seems the most common brake for the street (GM Int.) does NOT have enough support for some of the wheels out there.
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Did I miss the post in which the originally un-named wheel manufacturer was unmasked?.... I would like to know to whom I should NOT send money.
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Named in this thread, I believe: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9673.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,9673.0.html)
Mike
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FYI,
My guy at Bassett Wheel, Steve Haines is working on a 18 inch steel wheel program for Mickeys. It should not be long before they will be able to take orders!!! But, I get my sets for the liner first!!! LOL
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We have sourced out some GOOD made in USA 18" wheel rims with no centers and we mare making our own centers....
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I can appreciate that some of these wheels are going on very fast vehicles so there is a desire to get everything just right. But has anyone had problems with a wheel or tyre because it is 0.020" out of round?
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I spoke with Steve at Bassett a few days ago & the development of the 18's is on hold until at least later in the year so don't hold your breath.. We are a pretty small market so I expect it to be more of a service than a money maker for them. He is interested in input from us so he can be contacted at steve@bassettwheel.com.
Mike Cook is doing 18x5 steelies.
Vintiques can do 18x7 aluminum.
Billet Specialties can do 18x7.
Colorado Custom can do 18x7.
Four days on the shoe-fone, I spoke to more companies but this seems to be the cream of the crop so far.
Sid.
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Sidmeister,
Cook's wheels are going to be 18 x 5.5 - don't know if that makes a difference.
Willi #426
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Sure enough, after reading about the 7" dia hub I went to look at all my wheels. The Diamonds have a different stamping than the Bassets and I can see where the 7" support makes sense.
I just last week witnessed a wheel break off a trailer carrying a BobCat. I could hear it squeaking as I came up on it and sure enough, the wheel went flying, it broke the center out just around the outside of the bolt holes.
Summit Racing has steel spacer rings on the website, 7" diameter but only in 5" BC. about $10 each, 1/8" and 1/4" thk.
Gene Winfield "You learn every day"
John
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I think I recognise you Willi-mate & my bad, I believe you're right , 5.5's. :-)
Sid.
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Steel 18"x5.5" outers can be bought from the Miller Tire Co. They are implement suppliers. A few have bought them and made their own centers............Good Luck