Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: racer x on April 23, 2011, 12:20:38 PM
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I was working on a 2.7 liter Chrysler V6 today.It is in a 2001 Concorde. It got me thinking about how engines are built and designed.
This little beauty has three class action lawsuits againised Chrysler. because of a sludge issue. The one I am working on has a bad water pump. No big deal. But the water pump has a plastic impeller and it sits behind the timing CHAIN. SO when it starts to leak water goes into the oil ,. And the bearings fall into the pan .Plus I had to take apart most of the engine to get the water pump out.
BAD but not the worst
I have been an auto mechanic for 35 years .I can think of worse . Like the PVR V6 from Volvo they used in the Delorien. Cams that went away in 30 k and leaking everything everywhere.
I am sure there have been others. But what was the worst?
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Gotta give the VW boxer 4 an Honorable Mention:
One cyl always fails first because the oil cooler blocks airflow to #3?
No oil filter.
No head gaskets, with individual iron cyls paired with a single aluminum head, with a magnesium case, guarantees leaks for as long as you own it. If your VW doesn't leak, you must be out of oil.
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I've got to go with the Vega block. Ahead of its time, yes, but WAY ahead of the processes GM needed to have perfected to make it work.
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Another HM: Oldsmobile 350ci Diesel.
You cannot just up the CR to 20:1 and pump #2 in the tank to make a diesel. But GM knows that now.
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Good one on the olds I forgot about that . And the 8-6-4 from GM .
I was told the vega block cooled off to quick and the the matereal did not set up properly. Same matereal in the Porsche 928 block but the Porsche kept the cylindrers warm and cooled then off at a controled rate. I don't know if that is true or not. But I had a 73 Vega that smoked something wicked.I have seen 928 engines with 250000 miles and no real cylinder ware.
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I seem to recall, though, regarding the Olds block, that it was the block of choice for a super tough HP 350 application when converted to gasoline.
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I was just going to say I bet the original design of the Olds engine must have been pretty good if it was converted to 20 to 1 and lasted at all.
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The pancake Corvair engine had lots of problems. ALL of them leaked like crazy. Owners put drain pans underneath at night and poured the oil back in the morning.
Don
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I had a bunch of Corvairs. The leak was from the push rod tubes. Once the rubber O rings where replaced with viton and the oil coolerseals done they where fairly leak free
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I had a pair of Corvairs myself. Always throwing belts. You knew you threw a belt when all of a sudden, you had about 10 new horsepower at the rear wheels.
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You over tightened the belt
I had the same problem. Then an old guy with one showed me a belt so loose I thought it would come off any second. It never did . When I would tighten up the belt( I still have the bent 9/16th wrench) It would pop off .After leaving them a little loose it never came off again.
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The worst I ever saw is the Honda six cylinder 1000cc CBX bike. Customers would buy those things with great expectations. There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles and tune-ups cost a fortune. They would get hot and lose power. Local clowns on old ratty Kawasakis and Yamahas would beat new CBXs in the street drags. Finally Honda got smart and made a tourer out of it. Then the got even more intelligent and quit making them. Ah yes, the memories.
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That may be so but I'd still like to have one! :roll: :roll: :roll:
Pete
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Woobly, my man, allow me to completely and utterly disagree
The worst I ever saw is the Honda six cylinder 1000cc CBX bike. Customers would buy those things with great expectations. There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles
Yeah, sure: it's a SIX-cylinder...and a ( for the time ) sophisticated one
and tune-ups cost a fortune.
Doesn't make it a bad engine design.
Just makes it an engine design way more complicated and sophisticated than
was the norm at the time.
It's like saying that a Bugatti Veyron is a 'bad design', just because it's mindblowingly expensive
to service.
The CBX was the Bugatti Veyron of motorcycles of the time.
Any drunk child could adjust the valves on, let's say, a HD,
but it took a bit more brainpower ,patience, knowledge and finesse
to adjust the 24 (!) valves of the CBX...with SHIMS (!) that is.
Not to mention sync-ing the 6 carbs to perfection.
But HEEEY; that's what it takes to run a 'sophisticated' six cylinder wonder-machine.
Of cause the traditionalists hated it.
They would get hot and lose power.
Can't say that it was NOT the case, but I've never heard of it,
neither in all the road tests done at the time ( I have a bunch of magazines with road-test from back then )
nor have I've ever heard of it in all the discussions I've participated in, and read, at the CBX forum.
...and BTW, it has never happened to my CBX
Local clowns on old ratty Kawasakis and Yamahas would beat new CBXs in the street drags.
Sorry, but I seriously doubt that, (*) unless said CBX had been in the hands of some ham-fisted 'mechanic'
which of cause is a possibility, cause as I said, back then very few motorcycle-'mechanics'
were qualified to work on this gloriously sophisticated machine.
Doesn't make it a bad design,
just makes it a design ahead of it's time ( ....and ahead of the 'mechanics' of the time )
(*)
Bike magazine December 1978:
"..top speed: 135.13 mph , Standing 1/4 mile: 11.93 sec.."
SuperBike magazine Ocober 1978 . " This is it. The big one. Honda CBX, six cylinders of warp drive ":
"..maximum speed: 138 mph. Standing Quarter mile: 11.7 sec at 117mph..."
Finally Honda got smart and made a tourer out of it..
Wasn't really that smart. They were virtually unsellable.
In the end Honda gave them away for free to Tech. schools.
Ever once in a while such bike with zero miles on the meter
turns up, even now.
The CBX crowd refere to them as 'school bikes'.
You do NOT want the one's that have been through the hands of students
with more enthusiasm than actual qualifications. Stories of chewing-gum paper
and such inside these engines are rutinely reported.
Then the got even more intelligent and quit making them. Ah yes, the memories.
Yeah, the were a short-lived "let's-show-the-world-how-to-make-the-fastest-bike" exercise.
A kick in the but to the mediocre...
'Bad design'...NO way.
I've worked on it, and I can come up with a rather long nice list of
features on this bike that are just totally brilliant.
Have a ride on a well and properly set up CBX1000 Supersport
and you'd realize ( and this is what really counts at the end of the day) what an absolute HOOT it is.
It's fast as hell and completely rideable in a Ferrari-sort-of-way,
you can put it on top gear at 30mph and just woooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssssssh up to 125mph
like a flippin' freight train.
OK. Rant over.
Please enjoy these pictures of my 'badly design'ed CBX
During rebuild
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/fromscratch.jpg)
Yep: There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles
....or more,
( this is the carbs partly dismantled)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/1-15.jpg)
..but the result is glorious:
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/1b.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/4Grrrrrr.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/2ifyougotitflauntit.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/CBXafterrebuild.jpg)
BTW: the sound isn't too bad either: ( Click image and turn UP sound )
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/th_Herdemontrererjeglydenafmin6-cylind.jpg) (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/?action=view¤t=Herdemontrererjeglydenafmin6-cylind.mp4)
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That is a beautiful bike.I watched a CBX at the drag strip take out the tree one night. The rider was left sitting on ths track . The just shot out from under him.
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I rode a 1979 CBX with a turbo for awhile. Smooth, lots of power, and a hoot to ride.
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I used to drag race against one way back when they were new. It was a quick high reving machine that was fun to race against and beat with my dragster 8-)
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I remember reading Cycle's review/analysis of the CBX when it came out.
One thing that stuck out was the Honda Test Lab.
They ran it at sustained WOT with no rev limiter and at about 20 minutes, the studs finally started to pull out of the case. :-o
It was a virtually indestructable engine they said.
IIRC, it was priced too high for the market, and Suzuki offering was quicker in the 1/4mi. Bikes lived and died by mag ET's (which a mear mortal could never duplicate, they were usually done by Pee Wee Gleason, no relation)
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Probably-Not-Politically-Correct -
Gotta give Harley-Davidson an HM as well. Knucklehead is not just the nickname of a head config ...
No room for an intake manifold / carb, cronic overheating of rear cyl, siamese rods, hemi gone mad, widest 2 cyl with the exception of BMW, hard to get equal exh, agricultural technology.
Hotshoes made HD's fast not BECAUSE of the design, but in SPITE of the design.
You can tell how fast a Harley is by how little OEM content is still present.
I had a '79? and it was the highest maintenance bike I ever owned.
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The AMF Harley years were junk. The later EVO & Twin Cam motors are light years better. My 95 Fatboy has been 100% trouble free. The biggest downside is the Harley tax, about $2000 to make it run like it should have when you bought it. If I have to explain it, you wouldnt understand it.
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Yamaha's first four stroke 750 twin. Six head gasket redesigns. Also leaked oil. Where? Through the porous castings.
Yamaha ended up replacing all of the engines. I went to Yamaha's headquarters in Buena Park. There was a huge dumpster full of engines. Quite a sight.
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I worked for John Cordona @ 4s n more many years ago and rebuilt many of these things.
what I liked was the sound, didn't think they were very fast
Woobly, my man, allow me to completely and utterly disagree
The worst I ever saw is the Honda six cylinder 1000cc CBX bike. Customers would buy those things with great expectations. There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles
Yeah, sure: it's a SIX-cylinder...and a ( for the time ) sophisticated one
and tune-ups cost a fortune.
Doesn't make it a bad engine design.
Just makes it an engine design way more complicated and sophisticated than
was the norm at the time.
It's like saying that a Bugatti Veyron is a 'bad design', just because it's mindblowingly expensive
to service.
The CBX was the Bugatti Veyron of motorcycles of the time.
Any drunk child could adjust the valves on, let's say, a HD,
but it took a bit more brainpower ,patience, knowledge and finesse
to adjust the 24 (!) valves of the CBX...with SHIMS (!) that is.
Not to mention sync-ing the 6 carbs to perfection.
But HEEEY; that's what it takes to run a 'sophisticated' six cylinder wonder-machine.
Of cause the traditionalists hated it.
They would get hot and lose power.
Can't say that it was NOT the case, but I've never heard of it,
neither in all the road tests done at the time ( I have a bunch of magazines with road-test from back then )
nor have I've ever heard of it in all the discussions I've participated in, and read, at the CBX forum.
...and BTW, it has never happened to my CBX
Local clowns on old ratty Kawasakis and Yamahas would beat new CBXs in the street drags.
Sorry, but I seriously doubt that, (*) unless said CBX had been in the hands of some ham-fisted 'mechanic'
which of cause is a possibility, cause as I said, back then very few motorcycle-'mechanics'
were qualified to work on this gloriously sophisticated machine.
Doesn't make it a bad design,
just makes it a design ahead of it's time ( ....and ahead of the 'mechanics' of the time )
(*)
Bike magazine December 1978:
"..top speed: 135.13 mph , Standing 1/4 mile: 11.93 sec.."
SuperBike magazine Ocober 1978 . " This is it. The big one. Honda CBX, six cylinders of warp drive ":
"..maximum speed: 138 mph. Standing Quarter mile: 11.7 sec at 117mph..."
Finally Honda got smart and made a tourer out of it..
Wasn't really that smart. They were virtually unsellable.
In the end Honda gave them away for free to Tech. schools.
Ever once in a while such bike with zero miles on the meter
turns up, even now.
The CBX crowd refere to them as 'school bikes'.
You do NOT want the one's that have been through the hands of students
with more enthusiasm than actual qualifications. Stories of chewing-gum paper
and such inside these engines are rutinely reported.
Then the got even more intelligent and quit making them. Ah yes, the memories.
Yeah, the were a short-lived "let's-show-the-world-how-to-make-the-fastest-bike" exercise.
A kick in the but to the mediocre...
'Bad design'...NO way.
I've worked on it, and I can come up with a rather long nice list of
features on this bike that are just totally brilliant.
Have a ride on a well and properly set up CBX1000 Supersport
and you'd realize ( and this is what really counts at the end of the day) what an absolute HOOT it is.
It's fast as hell and completely rideable in a Ferrari-sort-of-way,
you can put it on top gear at 30mph and just woooooooooooooooooooooooooosssssssssh up to 125mph
like a flippin' freight train.
OK. Rant over.
Please enjoy these pictures of my 'badly design'ed CBX
During rebuild
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/fromscratch.jpg)
Yep: There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles
....or more,
( this is the carbs partly dismantled)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/1-15.jpg)
..but the result is glorious:
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/1b.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/4Grrrrrr.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/2ifyougotitflauntit.jpg)
(http://i1196.photobucket.com/albums/aa403/octaneCBX/CBXafterrebuild.jpg)
BTW: the sound isn't too bad either: ( Click image and turn UP sound )
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/th_Herdemontrererjeglydenafmin6-cylind.jpg) (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/?action=view¤t=Herdemontrererjeglydenafmin6-cylind.mp4)
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I still want one. Tried to buy the one Mark Dees had from his estate but didn't bid high enough.
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That is a nice CBX Lars. The best I have seen. You have a right to be proud of it.
In those days I was a Honda mechanic and the CBXs came into the shop for the basic stuff, like tune ups, folks that let the bike sit and needed the carbs cleaned and a new battery, low speed tip overs, etc. Funny little engine noises, etc. The CBXs took a long time to repair and we hardly ever charged the customers for all of the time it took to do the jobs. We took a loss in the service department in the interest of public relations.
In my youth I was fascinated by technology and the more of it the better. The CBX and a lot of the complicated bikes that came after it started my love affair with basic equipment. Performance with simplicity is the most difficult combination to engineer. Every component needs to be correct for the task at hand, in complement to the other parts, and all together must act in harmony and with balance.
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"...I liked was the sound, didn't think they were very fast."
Only you could make that statement Rick.
DW
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We had a turbo CBX that used to run at the Texas mile. It ran in the neighborhood of 200.
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IIRC, the CBX wasn't the only 6-cyl at the time. Laverda? Benelli? Uh, some spaghetti rocket also sported 6 cyl and was even more $$$$ than the CBX.
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I was told the vega block cooled off to quick and the the matereal did not set up properly. Same matereal in the Porsche 928 block but the Porsche kept the cylindrers warm and cooled then off at a controled rate. I don't know if that is true or not. But I had a 73 Vega that smoked something wicked.I have seen 928 engines with 250000 miles and no real cylinder ware.
I put over 200k on a 71 Vega.
It was the ultimate oil recycler.
I would put the used oil from my other vehicles in it [properly strained thru a sock of course].
Don
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IIRC, the CBX wasn't the only 6-cyl at the time. Laverda? Benelli? Uh, some spaghetti rocket also sported 6 cyl and was even more $$$$ than the CBX.
Didn't Honda build a thimble drone 125cc 6 cylinder bike for racing?
John
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IIRC, the CBX wasn't the only 6-cyl at the time. Laverda? Benelli? Uh, some spaghetti rocket also sported 6 cyl and was even more $$$$ than the CBX.
Didn't Honda build a thimble drone 125cc 6 cylinder bike for racing?
John
Not sure, but Honda did win the Science Fair Project Award with their NR500. This was a 4-stroke grand prix bike that had oval pistons and 8 valves per cylinder.
All the winning bikes were 2-strokes at the time, but Honda wanted to win with a 4-stroke. They wanted 8 cylinders, but the rules limited it to 4 cylinders, so they just made the pistons oval. It was a tech marvel, but could not win, and they went to 2-stroke later and followed the herd.
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Didn't the NR 500 stand for"never ran" .
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Didn't the NR 500 stand for"never ran" .
AKA - Never Ready
Did a quick search, look how long the valves are. Hard to believe it made peak power at over 20,000 rpm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ovalpiston.jpg
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Not Round! :-D
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OK, Honda, mid 60's 5 cylinder 4/ 125cc.
turned 17 or 18krpm.
The piston, bare weighs 34g.
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OK, Honda, mid 60's 5 cylinder 4/ 125cc.
turned 17 or 18krpm.
The piston, bare weighs 34g.
That's the 1966 , RC149.
Eight speed and 32hp at a whooping 19.500rpm.
Then there was the six-cylinder 250cc, RC166, pumping out 56.8hp at 17.500rpm
(http://gpma.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/dshonda02.jpg)
....prominently raced by Mike Hailwood in the 1966 World Championship,
where he won all ten races he entered.
(http://www.motorsportretro.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/673px-1966-Honda-RC166-engine-in-pieces.jpg)
...now, will ya look at that:
RC166 piston/rod
(http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy169/tdm34/_Honda_RC166_250cc_6-Cyl__Piston_and_Rod.jpg)
Weird video, but aaaawesome sound: CLICK (http://youtu.be/eaRop_ZMwo0)
.
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Some folks just can't have enough.
There's guy in California who build together TWO CBX six-cylinders = The CBX Twelve
(http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk101/SiloScience/Ironhorse%20Motorbike/V12CBX-008.jpg)
...way to go !!!!
It runs just fine ! CLICK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGBgLZt--zY&feature=related)
BTW that guy rules ! : he build 3 Ferrari-engined bikes as well ! WOW!
I gues this thread has turned to "Brilliant Engine Design" by now....ha ha !
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I worked for John Cordona @ 4s n more many years ago and rebuilt many of these things.
what I liked was the sound, didn't think they were very fast
...compared to what ?
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That is a nice CBX Lars. The best I have seen. You have a right to be proud of it.
Thank you Bo.
You're too kind
In those days I was a Honda mechanic and the CBXs came into the shop for the basic stuff, like tune ups, folks that let the bike sit and needed the carbs cleaned and a new battery, low speed tip overs, etc. Funny little engine noises, etc. The CBXs took a long time to repair and we hardly ever charged the customers for all of the time it took to do the jobs. We took a loss in the service department in the interest of public relations.
In my youth I was fascinated by technology and the more of it the better. The CBX and a lot of the complicated bikes that came after it started my love affair with basic equipment. Performance with simplicity is the most difficult combination to engineer. Every component needs to be correct for the task at hand, in complement to the other parts, and all together must act in harmony and with balance.
In a way I agree, but then again I also find it interesting and satisfying
to one day work on my stone-age-tech Indian, and the next day the CBX.
.
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Don't forget the Suzuki RP68. 50cc (3 cu in) 3 cylinder, 14 speed gearbox, 20000 rpm 21 hp beast!
The sound of the Honda 6 cylinder 250 is one of the best in the world.
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OK, Honda, mid 60's 5 cylinder 4/ 125cc.
turned 17 or 18krpm.
The piston, bare weighs 34g.
That's the 1966 , RC149.
Eight speed and 32hp at a whooping 19.500rpm.
Then there was the six-cylinder 250cc, RC166, pumping out 56.8hp at 17.500rpm
(http://gpma.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/dshonda02.jpg)
....prominently raced by Mike Hailwood in the 1966 World Championship,
where he won all ten races he entered.
(http://www.motorsportretro.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/673px-1966-Honda-RC166-engine-in-pieces.jpg)
...now, will ya look at that:
RC166 piston/rod
(http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy169/tdm34/_Honda_RC166_250cc_6-Cyl__Piston_and_Rod.jpg)
Weird video, but aaaawesome sound: CLICK (http://youtu.be/eaRop_ZMwo0)
.
OK, the pic is of the RC146
1965 125cc basically a 3 cyl and 2 cyl motors cranks. The 3 cyl had 120° crank and the twin side was 180°
125 cc 4RC146 & RC148 1965 RC115 Honda
The 4RC146 is an improved version of the 2RC146, and nearly identical to it – the only external difference are the shorter exhausts of the 4RC146 (see pic 4RC146).
Power is now 30 bhp at 17,000 rpm. In actual practice, the engine hardly ever runs well, with continual Carburation and ignition problems.
Some interesting data: the piston, as usual for Honda with two compression and one oil scraper rings, weighs 34 g without the pin and rings. The pin, with a diameter of 11 mm weighs 11 g. An inlet valve has a head diameter of 14.5 mm and a stem diameter of 3.8 mm and is 74.4 mm long. Weight: 9 g. Two valve collets and the retainer weigh 1 resp. 3 g. Nobby Clarke said they used tweezers to put the Honda valve gear together.
The RC148 is the great surprise of 1965.
It is a five cylinder, in principle two and a half 50 cc twins.
Bore and stroke are 33 x 29 mm for a total capacity of 124 cc.
Drive to the camshafts is by gear train between the third and fourth cylinders. Power is 34 bhp at 20,000 rpm. There are eight speeds in the box, and the engine has wetsump lubrication.
The four exhausts of cylinders 1, 2, 4 and 5 sit in the normal place, left and right of the bike, the exhaust of cylinder 3 sweeps up and around the lefy hand side of the engine, crosses through the frame, to end up under the right leg of the rider.
Dry weight is given as 85 kg.
Sorry, this is what happens when you build 30 hp 80cc grenades. You find out what other junk has been built and don't clean up drive space.
John
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Years ago before I got married I made my own contribution to bad design. It was mating a Honda 450 twin to a Lycoming airplane turbocharger. It was things I had laying around. I had lots of time and no money. It was interesting.
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The worst I ever saw is the Honda six cylinder 1000cc CBX bike. Customers would buy those things with great expectations. There are enough parts in each one for two normal motorcycles and tune-ups cost a fortune. They would get hot and lose power. Local clowns on old ratty Kawasakis and Yamahas would beat new CBXs in the street drags. Finally Honda got smart and made a tourer out of it. Then the got even more intelligent and quit making them. Ah yes, the memories.
wobbly,
I've never met you, but i already like you.
From the 350 Ducati which was my 1st bike in 1964 to the 2 LSR NA Busas i've got now, i've owned/ridden/raced lots of types of bikes.
MY 1980 CBX was BY FAR the worst POS i've owned.
Nightmare to work on, handled like sht, and contrary to lotsa folks, i didn't particularly like the way it sounded even w/the Kerker.
Karl
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I am kind of curious how they were able to keep those things running without over heating or just destroying the motors at 17,500K
I have driven in a rotary engine at 15,000K only to have to break it down after a 4 hour race. Rotary engines have to be kept below 12K RPM and they are designed for high RPM but after 12K you wont get more than 100,000 miles without a rebuild. How in the world did they manage to run a piston engine that keep it cool with no oil coolers, and not just blow up one engine after another.
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..
MY 1980 CBX was BY FAR the worst POS i've owned.
Nightmare to work on
Sorry to hear you had difficulties working on it.
What particular part of working on it did you find being a "hightmare" ?
.
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I had an Rx7 for 11 years. It had a Race beat 13 b all done up .I loved it and have aways liked the rotery engine. So far I have see 4 rotory Suzuki bikes including one on the starting line at Maxton. I have never seen one run. The one at Maxton got me all excited .After my run I got back to the starting line just in time to see it being loaded into a truck . Yup it would not start.It must be me :-P
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I vote for the Vega aluminum engine ... that was a real design set back for GM ... If you had an iron sleeve engine you could name your price.
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..
MY 1980 CBX was BY FAR the worst POS i've owned.
Nightmare to work on
Sorry to hear you had difficulties working on it.
What particular part of working on it did you find being a "hightmare" ?
it sat in storage for a few years while i was overseas, crudded up carbs when i got back. synching carbs was a pita.
but thinking it over, it was no worse than my ole Zx12.
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I agree -- synching the carbs on a ZX12 is a true bugger. :evil:
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..
MY 1980 CBX was BY FAR the worst POS i've owned.
Nightmare to work on
Sorry to hear you had difficulties working on it.
What particular part of working on it did you find being a "hightmare" ?
it sat in storage for a few years while i was overseas, crudded up carbs when i got back..
Sorry, no offence .... but if the owner neglects his machine to a point where he leaves it
for several years with gas in the carbs, it's hardly due to "bad engine design",
or the machine being a "..BY FAR the worst POS.." if the carbs crud up.
..synching carbs was a pita...
Yeah it's somewhat challenging to synch six carbs, but by no means is it a 'pita'
or a 'nightmare', and certainly no difficulties in it caused by any 'bad engine design'.
There really isn't much to it, just takes a bit of patience, just like it does with any other multi-carb engine.
Remove tank
Hook up longer fuel tube
Hook up vacuum gauge and adaptors
Run at idle and adjust so differencies in vacuum readings are within 1,6 inHg
using ( the non-adjustable ) cylinder 4, as fix point.
Recheck
...and recheck idle speed........job done
Again: no offence, but if one find that to be a "nightmare"
on this "pos", "bad engine design'ed" machine it is due to
the self-inflicted crud'ing of the carbs not being adressed properly.
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How about "odd" design? The British built Lanchester used a horizontal opposed 2 cyl. with two counter rotating crankshafts and SIX connecting rods.
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Never had a six cylinder Honda. Thought they were very impressive looking. Never considered magazine test rides to be worth much.
No magazine ever tested a major advertisers new bike and didn't love it. But for loser engine designs, I have always been puzzled by any "F" head engine. Why didn't Willys just go to an OHV? Anyone here who can stand up and explane the "F" head to me?
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I agree with you Rich, Car and Bike "testers" just love everything and are still doing it. The new Motor Trend show is a perfect example. They seem to love every $40-50K European car and in 5 years they are the biggest POS on the road and can be bought for a buck. Go figure
IMO F-head had to be $$ there is no other answer
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Hey Rich, take it easy on Willy's, before the F head they used a reed valve design............. or was it a slide valve?
At least they built the best Gasser body ever, the 1933-34 Willy's ( and not a bad follow up with the 40- 41 coupes............) Bob :roll:
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MY 1980 CBX was BY FAR the worst POS i've owned.
Nightmare to work on
Sorry to hear you had difficulties working on it.
What particular part of working on it did you find being a "hightmare" ?
it sat in storage for a few years while i was overseas, crudded up carbs when i got back..
Sorry, no offence .... but if the owner neglects his machine to a point where he leaves it
for several years with gas in the carbs, it's hardly due to "bad engine design",
or the machine being a "..BY FAR the worst POS.." if the carbs crud up.
..synching carbs was a pita...
Yeah it's somewhat challenging to synch six carbs, but by no means is it a 'pita'
or a 'nightmare', and certainly no difficulties in it caused by any 'bad engine design'.
There really isn't much to it, just takes a bit of patience, just like it does with any other multi-carb engine.
Remove tank
Hook up longer fuel tube
Hook up vacuum gauge and adaptors
Run at idle and adjust so differencies in vacuum readings are within 1,6 inHg
using ( the non-adjustable ) cylinder 4, as fix point.
Recheck
...and recheck idle speed........job done
Again: no offence, but if one find that to be a "nightmare"
on this "pos", "bad engine design'ed" machine it is due to
the self-inflicted crud'ing of the carbs not being adressed properly.
I've been pissing off CBX owners regularly for years, looks like i'm still good at it.
I owned one for 12 years, put many, many miles on it, tried to like it, even thought i liked it for a while, but in retrospect hated it.
Leaving it in storage was not my choice, went on a 2 mo assignment in Portugal that turned into 2 years.
In those days my MC love was twisties, but that POS with its spindly forks and bicycle sized rear tire put me on my ass 3 times, low sided it.
It looked cool, i'll give it that.
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I've been pissing off CBX owners regularly for years, looks like i'm still good at it.
LOL , no you aren't .
It's all cool.
Takes slightly more to p'ss me off.
Just giving the bike the credit
that it wasn't because it was a 'badly designed engine'
that you had troubles with the bike.
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For the CBX Folks
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nESwgrnvo7g/Ta41KdbwEiI/AAAAAAAAAYs/LTMXjuUmXs8/s640/2011-04-15%2017.35.00.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_nESwgrnvo7g/Ta41KynvsxI/AAAAAAAAAY0/vsMMuY1xGUI/s640/2011-04-15%2017.35.29.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/_nESwgrnvo7g/Ta41LmenziI/AAAAAAAAAY4/aPlole4oiDM/s512/2011-04-15%2017.36.08.jpg)
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Don't know that it was necessarily a bad design, but the 230 Jeep Tornado OHC 6 was, at best, an oddball. Common lobes for both intake and exhaust, and a timing chain long enough to drive a Harley Hillclimber.
Yet another clever idea that fell away because the manufacturer lacked the resources to properly execute and support the product.
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Bad engine designs..... yes.... the intake design on the 50s Ford Y Blocks.... what would be the best flow rares that a good cylinder head porter could get from those?
And how about the siamesed exhaust ports on the center cylinders of Ford Flathead engines.... or all of the exhaust ports for that matter.... snaking around through the water jackets to the low side of the block..... and the amount of heat that got transferred into the cooling system.... they needed HUGE radiators and two water pumps.... (of course, a guy called Zora Arkus-Duntov came along and showed everyone a better way....)
As far as the Vega engines - they were something!.... I had picked up a 1975 Monza that had the inline 4 standard Vega engine a way back when.... the engine was junk and the car was cheap..... I had a 153 inch Chevy 4 cylinder from a 1964 Chev Handi-Van (and yes they DID use the Chevy II 4 bangers in the early Handi-Vans)... It was a real easy install... and, of course in 1977/1978 the Pontiac Astre's got a modern version of the same engine, the Vega/Astre names then disappeared. the Monza station wagons looked like Vegas, and the "NEW" 4 cylinder powerplant was the 1960s design Chevy 4 banger....
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Bad engine designs..... yes.... the intake design on the 50s Ford Y Blocks.... what would be the best flow rares that a good cylinder head porter could get from those?
Actually, I think you can get pretty good flow out of a head that went into production in 1954:
http://www.ford-y-block.com/porting.htm (http://www.ford-y-block.com/porting.htm)
It's the simple stuff that drives me crazy, like the fuel pump in an early SBC, or having the shim the starter to get proper mesh on the same engine.
Mike
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It's the simple stuff that drives me crazy, like the fuel pump in an early SBC, or having the shim the starter to get proper mesh on the same engine.
Mike
Mike wasn't this caused by having different ring gears on flexplates and flywheels? I remember my Ex's pre-runner, she broke two Turbo 400 short tail transmissions. I then put in a 4 speed from a 5 ton truck. Then she tried to break my bank account.
John
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...It's the simple stuff that drives me crazy, like the fuel pump in an early SBC, ...
Mike
You mean how the actuating rod was aimed downward so it would fall out and make changing pumps a true PITA? :-D
Axle grease is your friend. Clean rod and bore, grease it up, and it will stay put. Helps to rotate engine so the cam eccentric is at the low point also.
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Why not just use a longer bolt in the hole provided to hold the fuel pump rod in place.
Just don't forget to replace it with the short bolt when you are done. :-D
Don
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I will definitely agree that the motor itself didn't exhibit any of the "bad design" issues like the ones this thread is aimed at.
So my comments on the CBX's other qualities are really out of place; like my daughter says, "my bad". :cheers:
That said, i still hated it. :-D
I've been pissing off CBX owners regularly for years, looks like i'm still good at it.
LOL , no you aren't .
It's all cool.
Takes slightly more to p'ss me off.
Just giving the bike the credit
that it wasn't because it was a 'badly designed engine'
that you had troubles with the bike.