Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: McRat on April 03, 2011, 06:10:03 PM
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Our air dam has been questioned publically in another thread, and on other websites (as somebody pointed out to me). I didn't want to hijack the thread in progress any further, so I started this thread. Ignoring all the insults, here is what is going on with our airdam:
DT doesn't specify anything about airdams, nor does it specify engine swaps either, or streamlining for that matter. In fact, DT rules are a "short" chapter that rely on Gas Coupe for the particulars.
While DT does say all the original body panels must be used, and with the proper orientation, so does Gas Coupe.
It is Gas Coupe that permits engine swaps, and outlaws streamlining for DT, so as far as body issues go, I read that DT = GC unless otherwise specified.
It is Gas Coupe that permits air dams, 5.D.3 para 9 = "Airdams are allowed but shall not cover the original grill opening". But even that is only a partial description, for the full story, you need 4.CC.1 Air Dams and Splitters = "OEM or fabricated devices installed BELOW THE FRONT BUMPER used to inhibit and direct airflow from under the vehicle. Air Dams and splitters can be set inward from the front bumper but cannot extend above or beyond the original contour of the leading edge and sides of the front bumper (see 4.JJ for bumper). Both can extend rearward to the leading edge of the front wheelwell. Splitters are allowed as long as they follow the same contours requirements as an airdam. Bodies cannot be cut away to accomodate airdams or splitters."
These are the rules I followed after asking about it, and after looking at GC entries. I didn't alter the height or width or length of the body, I didn't block the grill, I followed the body and wheel wells, and didn't make any changes that went past the the front bumper contour. I did not alter the front quarter panels, nor did I close up any body gaps, which would be streamlining. And there is a splitter on the bottom that both strengthens the air dam, and splits the air, which is the same contour as the front bumper, but set back. It is a fabricated piece.
That's the way I read the book, and everyone I've asked who is knowledgable about SCTA LSR has agreed so far.
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112 views and no one has commented - looks like folks must agree with your understanding of the rule(s). I have no dog in this fight, but I appreciate your careful explanation of your rule-reading and the construction of your air dam. vic
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How about a picture?
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How about a picture?
There is a side shot in the 2010 rulebook in the DT chapter. I'll find a front shot.
Casper is at Mike L's right now getting some goodies. :evil:
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I am with Vic's comments
I read the rules just as McRat and feel the air dam is legal.
Keep us posted
Charles
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Here is a front shot (photo credit, Jen):
(http://www.mcratracing.com/k/caspersalt.JPG)
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That definitely isn't hidden and anyone who thought it was illegal should have protested. Looks good to me!
Pete
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Well if it hasn't been protested yet I'm willing to bet that it will be now. THAT in my eyes doesn't meet the requirements of the rule. Others (Banks for starters) got through with illegal front fascias/air dams but just because Racer X got through with illegal stuff doesn't now make it okay for Racer Y to do the same thing and think they're legal.
IIRC, Banks was also the first to do the exhaust through the bed. In the years after that it was like a freakin' exhaust-through-the-bed epidemic! Every truck that rolled through had it and I always heard the same thing.... "Well Banks did it and they got through..." As you all know it got so bad that they finally had to put it in writing - NO EXHAUST THROUGH THE BED!
If this was an actual GC it would have been protested the second it came into impound by at least six different guys.
BTW this is just my $.02. I don't want to get any more involved than that in any conversation regarding the DT class.
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Well if it hasn't been protested yet I'm willing to bet that it will be now. THAT in my eyes doesn't meet the requirements of the rule. Others (Banks for starters) got through with illegal front fascias/air dams but just because Racer X got through with illegal stuff doesn't now make it okay for Racer Y to do the same thing and think they're legal.
IIRC, Banks was also the first to do the exhaust through the bed. In the years after that it was like a freakin' exhaust-through-the-bed epidemic! Every truck that rolled through had it and I always heard the same thing.... "Well Banks did it and they got through..." As you all know it got so bad that they finally had to put it in writing - NO EXHAUST THROUGH THE BED!
If this was an actual GC it would have been protested the second it came into impound by at least six different guys.
BTW this is just my $.02. I don't want to get any more involved than that in any conversation regarding the DT class.
What specifically is wrong with it?
No, my exhaust is not through the bed. It exits where it interferes with the other racers in line, that is, in the rear. Diesel smoke isn't loved by all. :-D
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I think the point that needs to be made is that the rules need to be tightened up some. For a long time NOBODY ran DT (well hardly anybody at least) and the rules were just kinda "blah run whatever and make it kinda like GC". Well now that there are more people running, the interpretation of the rules have gone every which way that can possibly be different. I think the diesel classes could definitely use some touching up.
Shit, that's like $.03 now. I better shut up.
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I think the point that needs to be made is that the rules need to be tightened up some. For a long time NOBODY ran DT (well hardly anybody at least) and the rules were just kinda "blah run whatever and make it kinda like GC". Well now that there are more people running, the interpretation of the rules have gone every which way that can possibly be different. I think the diesel classes could definitely use some touching up.
Subaru, that's like $.03 now. I better shut up.
I don't mind "tightening the rules". I still have to know what they are. Educate me please.
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What specifically is wrong with it?
I think this is a good example of what your typical air dam looks like:
(http://www.scta-bni.org/El%20Mirage/ELM%2010/July/photos/Ed/cars/2132.JPG)
Air dam rule says that air dam should be installed below the front bumper. CG rules say bumper shall be stock. Is your front bumper stock?
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Yes, 100% OEM front bumper with factory radiator opening in it, that I do not block. The airdam modification begins ~4" below the top of the factory nose piece, under the bumper. The "wrap around" on the ends of the bumper are OEM.
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More dams.
(http://www.scta-bni.org/El%20Mirage/ELM%2010/June/photos/Cars_1/0789.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/El%20Mirage/ELM%2010/Sept/photos/Ed/cars/0460.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/El%20Mirage/ELM%2010/Sept/photos/Ed/cars/0352.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_12/Set_2/IM001732.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_12/Set_2/IM001734.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_12/Set_3/IM001766.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_12/Set_3/IM001790.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_13/Set_2/IM001853.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_13/Set_2/IM001857.JPG)
(http://www.scta-bni.org/Bonneville/SpeedWeek_10/photos/photos_13/Set_2/IM001860.JPG)
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It seems to me that in almost every instance I showed the air dam could be a removed and a normal bumper would still be in place. Not saying that this is part of the rules... just making an observation. It doesn't appear that you can remove the air dam from your bumper because it looks like your air dam IS the bumper.
I'm up to $.04 now and that's more money than I have to spend on this subject. I'm sticking to roadsters and special constructions cars.
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Thanks for the pics. :cheers:
The red Mustang would not be legal, the splitter goes in the front of the bumper contour.
When I get to my truck, I will take more detailed pics.
The bumper is steel, and the airdam bolts up to it, which is plastic, fiberglass, and aluminum. It was "made pretty" to keep the original look of the truck.
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If you study the pic of the truck, the dam is spot on with the rules. Creativity and innovation. I don't think the rules say anything about a big hunk of alum. with Dzus fasteners and duct tape as part of the requirements.
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Now we are getting some place!
Nathan thanks for posting---this was the motivation of my original post---I think there should be some attention to Diesel Truck rules---you said it much better than I.
I also think :-P the Mustang has a splitter that does not comply.
4CC.1 "Splitters are allowed as long as they follow the same contours requirements as an air dam. Boddies cannot be cut away to accommodate air dams or splitters".
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McRat,
Your problem is that your air dam looks factory made, it looks to nice! You need to at least paint is an aluminum color and maybe you could have some one air brush some diamond plate on it.
Rex
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LOL :cheers:
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I am very familiar with the factory bumpers and facia on that truck,, I think that is the best looking truck air dam I have ever seen. It sure looks legal, but looks maybe to good.. LOL...
When folks see how it looks with the air dam removed then put back on they should see it meets the rules.
But who am I ? Not an inspector on the salt !!! so my thought count for nothing except admiration for good clean work on that air dam.
Charles
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Hmmm Looks good!
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Hmmm Looks good!
So now that there is a picture of a stock truck fascia and the McSwain version.
The stock one has TWO grille openings and McSwain's has none that just by itself is a rule violation.
The stock one has provisions for TWO lights that came on all GMC trucks of his year and model McSwains has none, another violation.
The stock fascia is part of the wheel wheel opening on both sides of the truck as is McSwains but his is 4" lower and a 1/2" reward of original location, another violation
So the DT rule reads
"5.F.4 Diesel Truck-/DT
The body shall remain unaltered in height, width and contour, with all stock panels mounted in original relationship to each other."
So the McSwain fashia alters the height, alters the width, alters the contour, alters the wheel well opening and alters the original relationship to the other body parts. Now how could anyone say it's legal for DT?
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Our air dam has been questioned publically in another thread, and on other websites (as somebody pointed out to me). I didn't want to hijack the thread in progress any further, so I started this thread. Ignoring all the insults, here is what is going on with our airdam:
DT doesn't specify anything about airdams, nor does it specify engine swaps either, or streamlining for that matter. In fact, DT rules are a "short" chapter that rely on Gas Coupe for the particulars.
While DT does say all the original body panels must be used, and with the proper orientation, so does Gas Coupe.
It is Gas Coupe that permits engine swaps, and outlaws streamlining for DT, so as far as body issues go, I read that DT = GC unless otherwise specified.
It is Gas Coupe that permits air dams, 5.D.3 para 9 = "Airdams are allowed but shall not cover the original grill opening". But even that is only a partial description, for the full story, you need 4.CC.1 Air Dams and Splitters = "OEM or fabricated devices installed BELOW THE FRONT BUMPER used to inhibit and direct airflow from under the vehicle. Air Dams and splitters can be set inward from the front bumper but cannot extend above or beyond the original contour of the leading edge and sides of the front bumper (see 4.JJ for bumper). Both can extend rearward to the leading edge of the front wheelwell. Splitters are allowed as long as they follow the same contours requirements as an airdam. Bodies cannot be cut away to accomodate airdams or splitters."
These are the rules I followed after asking about it, and after looking at GC entries. I didn't alter the height or width or length of the body, I didn't block the grill, I followed the body and wheel wells, and didn't make any changes that went past the the front bumper contour. I did not alter the front quarter panels, nor did I close up any body gaps, which would be streamlining. And there is a splitter on the bottom that both strengthens the air dam, and splits the air, which is the same contour as the front bumper, but set back. It is a fabricated piece.
Pat
See your above statement and the rule that I put in bold and red then look at any picture of your truck! You eliminated TWO grille openings and TWO light openings for starters and the part you replaced is not an air dam but a body panel! An air dam would be attached to the bottom of the body panel you removed.
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What I and almost everyone else on earth would call the grill is above the bumper and is not blocked off. When I say the picture I could not believe that is what all the fuss is about. But if you believe you have a real complaint, have you taken it up with the board? Has there been a ruling? Were you able to accept the ruling?
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I am I glad I am a roadster guy. :mrgreen: Tony
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I am I glad I am a roadster guy. :mrgreen: Tony
A roadster is looking and better each day. :-D
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The picture of the 04 GMC for comparison "may not be fair" as that grill is a "upgrade" as I recall...not all 04's came with that facia...
If Casper is a base model then it probably did not have had the fancy bumper cover with fog lights.
Also The openings above the bumper are Grill openings,,, the ones below are bumper or facia openings.
Charles
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What I and almost everyone else on earth would call the grill is above the bumper and is not blocked off. When I say the picture I could not believe that is what all the fuss is about. But if you believe you have a real complaint, have you taken it up with the board? Has there been a ruling? Were you able to accept the ruling?
There is no grill below the bumper, there is a rectangular indention in the center (blocked) that supports the OEM factory piece, which does not appear on Chevrolet model. There are 3 grill openings, two in OEM factory bumper, and the conventional grill above the bumper.
There are 2 recovery hook holes, and 2 optional foglights.
AFAIK, the rules are to keep you from cutting down on the radiator opening to get an advantage. My airdam is much larger than the factory piece, and it's purpose it to keep the nose down at high speed, by restricting the airflow under the truck.
But Steve Cole knows all this because while he doesn't race, he does have 3 Duramaxes. His intentions are questionable.
At this point I need to leave this thread, because what happens next is Steve Cole starts throwing personal insults around in an effort to get the thread locked, or me to lose my temper. He's been doing this since about 2002? on various car and truck sites to dozens of racers who don't run his parts.
In parting: Steve, when you finish my ashtray, call me. :cheers:
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What I and almost everyone else on earth would call the grill is above the bumper and is not blocked off. When I say the picture I could not believe that is what all the fuss is about. But if you believe you have a real complaint, have you taken it up with the board? Has there been a ruling? Were you able to accept the ruling?
There is no grill below the bumper, there is a rectangular indention in the center (blocked) that supports the OEM factory piece, which does not appear on Chevrolet model. There are 3 grill openings, two in OEM factory bumper, and the conventional grill above the bumper.
There are 2 recovery hook holes, and 2 optional foglights.
AFAIK, the rules are to keep you from cutting down on the radiator opening to get an advantage. My airdam is much larger than the factory piece, and it's purpose it to keep the nose down at high speed, by restricting the airflow under the truck.
But Steve Cole knows all this because while he doesn't race, he does have 3 Duramaxes. His intentions are questionable.
At this point I need to leave this thread, because what happens next is Steve Cole starts throwing personal insults around in an effort to get the thread locked, or me to lose my temper. He's been doing this since about 2002? on various car and truck sites to dozens of racers who don't run his parts.
In parting: Steve, when you finish my ashtray, call me. :cheers:
ALL GMC pickup models of the year in question came with the same front fascia. They all have the center opening (22 1/2" x 2 1/2") to feed air to the radiator and transmission cooler. As a matter of fact there are plastic parts that fit behind this opening to direct the air to the radiator and cooler as well. This opening has never been blocked off by the factory on any GMC model pickup. Pat blocked this opening off in his along with the recover hook openings and fog light openings. The fog lights and there openings are also there stock on ALL GMC models. These are NOT options and are standard equipment on ALL GMC's.
Now if Pat admits that the rules are to keep you from cutting down the opening to the radiator, he has also just admitted that his truck is illegal, as removing just the entire center opening is just that!
The front fascia and bumper on the Chevy version is completely different as are the front fenders, hood and doors.
As for the rest of Pat's rambling I just do not care but we are to ALL follow the rules, even Pat, not just the ones we want to follow.
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Just submit the pics to the rules questions email link on the scta-bni.org website and be done with it. That assumes that you guys actually want an answer to this question. If I am wrong and you guys just like to argue then by all means carry on.
:-D
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Is it time to block this one as well. Pissing contest don't get better and makes people leave the web site because of them. PM each other and go thru the rules and regs. on the SCTA web site. They are the rules makers.
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If you really want to pick the fly Subaru out of the pepper, the only problem I see with Mcrats truck is the bumper is not mounted in the stock location. In pictures it appears to be lowered which would violate "panels in stock location" rule.
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I dont think the "comaprison" truck is a 2005 GMC.
If you look at a 2005 GMC bumper, which I assume is the chrome bit, is separated from the grill opening by a black filler strip of some sort ~2-3 inches wide as on Casper.
No dog in the hunt as they say but someone does seem to have an axe to grind, maybe he should have protested it in impound rather than on an internet forum.
"As far as cheating goes, they’ll never stop it. The only way it can be done successfully, only one person can know about it. – Smokey Yunick"
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Steve is just here to attack, I put him on ignore as it is old now.
How you interpret rules can be enjoyable. If Smokey Yunick was still with us you could ask him.
It is the same argument and attack if you ask me. What part is the bumper and what part is the fascia? Protest it to answer your question.
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Its a simple solution, if you don't like a certain element of a racers car/truck just file a protest. But in my opinion there is no sport in filing for a possible air dam violation. Just work harder to get your rig to go faster. :roll: Tony
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yea,geez let it go or grow a pair and file a protest. ya need some cheeze with that. dang
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Ah ha, I found it!
I knew something was askew while I was looking through last years rule book. For a long time there was no info regarding splitters in the rules. Well, in 2009 that changed. Prior to 2009, the rules used to say that an air dam was supposed to extend STRAIGHT down. I think this is the main reason why all the photos I posted are of air dams that do in fact go straight down. Well in 2009 the part about an air dam extending straight down was left out for whatever reason. I don't think the rule changed and I think they are in fact supposed to still extend straight down but it obviously doesn't say that any more. :roll:
Am I wrong in saying that the air dam in question extends downward and then rolls under?
Is there a bumper bar behind all that white and chrome business on a stock truck? If so, then according to the SCTA definition, which says that a bumper is metal, all that that is covering the bumper bar is a fascia and considered to be part of the body. I don't think that little strip of chrome is actually the bumper. The whole white and chrome thing combined is either the bumper itself or it's a bumper cover. I couldn't find any pics of a Duramax with the front bumper removed to verify and I don't know anyone that'll let me take off their bumper to check.
Have any pics of a bumper-less Duramax?
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My airdam is much larger than the factory piece, and it's purpose it to keep the nose down at high speed, by restricting the airflow under the truck.
The fact that the truck weighs nearly 10,000 lbs doesn't help keep the nose down enough already? :-D
I see two separate devices here. I think the point of an air dam is to reduce drag (and ultimately increase top speed) by preventing air from going under the vehicle. I think your splitter is more likely to create down force on the front end.
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Tony
After very, very carefully scrutinizing your avatars, I don't think your "ONLY" a roadster guy. No offense intended, keep them coming.
Ron
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Tony
After very, very carefully scrutinizing your avatars, I don't think your "ONLY" a roadster guy. No offense intended, keep them coming.
Ron
:-D :-D :-D Some people go to the races just to see the cars and bikes. Tony
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Tony, I am begining to suspect :evil: that you are not a "ice chest" man :roll: lol
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Tony, I am begining to suspect :evil: that you are not a "ice chest" man :roll: lol
And that is the sound of the hammer hitting the nail on the head so to speak!
:-D
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Am I wrong in saying that the air dam in question extends downward and then rolls under?
Nathan,
If you magnify the picture, the air dam not only rolls down but has a flat plate (Nascar type) under that.
Just an observation.
Tom G.
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That Tom G is an observant son-of-a-gun!
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Man, one little word really changes things. The previous wording said the air dams MAY extend straight downwards and obviously nothing can extend beyond the front contour of the bumper. Perhaps going straight down is just the easiest thing to do thus the reason why a majority of the cars with air dams are like this.
I guess my point in saying that I'm surprised it hasn't been protested is that it's certainly a departure from the norm. Not that it isn't legal, but it's different. And I agree that it's very clean... maybe even too clean. So clean that I've got to really dig through the wording of the rules to see for myself. I'm not much for thinking out of the box truthfully and I guess I'm more of a traditionalist but perhaps the reason it hasn't been protested is because it is totally legal. But I could certainly see a knee jerk reaction of saying "hey wait, that doesn't look like something that should be legal"... it just happened to me. Kudos to you Pat.
But are air dams even allowed in DT? I don't know what it says now for 2011 but it used to say something like "intended to represent a typical diesel pickup truck". Again, maybe some tightening is needed, I dunno.
In searching for some DT images I came with this and got a good laugh:
(http://www.pickuptrucks.com/trucks/IMAGES/news/miscnews/spalbanks.jpg)
The Rocket Ranger has a smoothed out stock front bumper (is that legal?) with a little air dam underneath it and the Banks truck has a one off front bumper with air vents (is that legal?), a giant non-stock bulbous hood (is that legal?), and a partial tube chassis (is that legal?). Oh, and the exhaust exits up through the bed. Now that I know is not legal.
One other thing I am sure of is that Mr. Cole is working hard at trying to get banned.
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What does Cole's truck look like?
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"Tony, I am begining to suspect that you are not a "ice chest" man lol"
For those of you that do not know Tony, he is a short fella - maybe the camera can't point up any higher than his subject's uh ... oh never mind.
DW
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Nathan,
Good points on those pictured air dams. But, as with the exhaust exit thru the bed, that was then and this is now.
DW
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For those who have yet to recieve thier 2011 rule book, this is what it says on the air dam subject. The air dam is allowed in Gas Coupe, Altered, Modified Pick Up and Diesel Truck classes.
SECTION 4 DEFINITIONS
The following is a list of terms used by the SCTA Contest Board and their meanings:
4.CC STREAMLINING:
Any device which has the apparent purpose of directing, limiting, or controlling air flow around or within the car and is not a part of the original body will be considered as streamlining.
Removal of certain devices may also be considered streamlining; axle and header configuration will not. Any streamlining devices will be considered as part of the body for classification purposes, see 2.J. The types of streamlining devices listed below are allowed in some classes:
4.CC.1 Air Dams and Splitters:
OEM or fabricated devices installed below the front bumper used to inhibit and direct airflow from under the vehicle. An air dam may be attached to the leading edge of the bumper and not be considered to be extending forward of the front bumper so long as no point of the air dam projects more than 1/4" forward of the original contour of the leading edge of the front bumper when viewed from above.
Air dams and splitters can be set inward from the front bumper but cannot extend above or beyond the original contour of the leading edge and sides of the front bumper, see 4.JJ. Air dams and splitters can extend rearward to the leading edge of the front wheel well. Splitters are allowed as long as they follow the same contours requirements as an air dam. Bodies cannot be cut away to accommodate air dams or splitters.
DW