Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: gsjohnny on February 06, 2011, 07:19:19 PM
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Beginning January 1, 2012 all vehicles with “frameless” side windows, regardless of speed, must have all non-laminated windows constructed of polycarbonate material.
Additional bracing must be installed to prevent window blowout or collapse.
dont know if this the correct area for this. i'm new to this type of racing and am trying to make it to loring in july.
i have a 73 buick century with the frameless windows. being a street car, does this rule mean i have to replace my windows?
thanks
john
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That rule was mainly for Bonneville although it would include El Mirage for us west coasters. I don't know if the other race organizations have followed suit, I doubt it but check with the Loring officials.
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Loring official on this Forum is "Blakslax" or "Blackslax" -- you should be able to find him with a search through the "members" tab.
Once you find him =-= also use the LTA/Loring Timing Ass'n thread to get more focused information. Best wishes - and have fun.
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That rule was mainly for Bonneville although it would include El Mirage for us west coasters. I don't know if the other race organizations have followed suit, I doubt it but check with the Loring officials.
for bonneville and el mirage you have to replace the windows on a street legal car??? and then put the oem's back in for the street. anybody ever work on these cars before? it aint no picnic. :-(
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That rule was mainly for Bonneville although it would include El Mirage for us west coasters. I don't know if the other race organizations have followed suit, I doubt it but check with the Loring officials.
for bonneville and el mirage you have to replace the windows on a street legal car??? and then put the oem's back in for the street. anybody ever work on these cars before? it aint no picnic. :-(
The days of the dual purpose, SCTA/BNI racing LSR/Street Car have been history for quite a while. It can be done, but it's not likely to be a car you'd want to trip to the grocery store in once it was completed. Unless you like driving in traffic with a full cage which restricts your head movement laterally 2".
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i'm only trying for the 135-150 mark. i really don't want to go any further unless i hit the lotto. :-D and i know i will have more questions about as time goes by.
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Beginning January 1, 2012 all vehicles with “frameless” side windows, regardless of speed, must have all non-laminated windows constructed of polycarbonate material.
Additional bracing must be installed to prevent window blowout or collapse.
dont know if this the correct area for this. i'm new to this type of racing and am trying to make it to loring in july.
i have a 73 buick century with the frameless windows. being a street car, does this rule mean i have to replace my windows?
thanks
john
Are 73 buick windows non-laminet? I'm almost sure the rule is for tempered glass that breaks into little pieces. When did they start making tempered windows?
JL222
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When did they start making tempered windows?
JL222
1930's
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i'm only trying for the 135-150 mark. i really don't want to go any further unless i hit the lotto. :-D and i know i will have more questions about as time goes by.
Check out the USFRA event in September. 130 club sounds like it might be your ticket.
http://www.saltflats.com/I30_Club_2009.html
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Some years back the Thunder Frog blew out a window at speed and the clean up of glass took over two hours and 100 volunteers. This meant the short course was the only one open during the clean up. People waiting in line were not a happy bunch. One small piece of glass can ruin a $700.00 tire.
It's not just glass, parts and fasteners as well as tools are found during course sweeps daily. After your run a quick inspection of your vehicle should be done and if you see something missing lets us know by CB radio so we can look for the item.
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Well I know I have lost thousands of dollars out on that course................. :-D Bob
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$870. :cry:
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after reading a lot of threads about speed and weight, the 73 does qualify as a fatty. :-D i'm pushing this car with a buick 350. and there are very few performance parts for it. so i make my own. hopefully 450-500 hp will push it to 150mph. thats all i want.
just waiting the rule book to get here so i can get started. :cheers:
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That rule was mainly for Bonneville although it would include El Mirage for us west coasters. I don't know if the other race organizations have followed suit, I doubt it but check with the Loring officials.
for bonneville and el mirage you have to replace the windows on a street legal car??? and then put the oem's back in for the street. anybody ever work on these cars before? it aint no picnic. :-(
A 1973 Buick Century..... hmmm... I think I would start combing the pick an pull yards and get two doors to swap..... and NOT mess with changing glass back and forth
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I'm in somewhat of the same boat with an 85 Monte Carlo Super Sport. Right now (for 2011) is the 130 Club. Since the car hasn't been run since I built the motor several years ago (computer sez it otta make 550 hp...I'll figger 450-500 out of a roller-cam, AFR-head 406) it'll be a challenge just to get into that Club without something going wrong. 2012 (assuming that it makes 130) will be an attempt on the 150 Club.
Both of these are USFRA only and run at WoS in September...unless I could sneak it into BUB's "Run Whatcha Brung" class...but I spose they'd notice right away that it had too many wheels. :)
I don't plan to change any glass in the Monte. It's a "frameless" window (2-dr hardtop) type (close to the longest and heaviest doors GM ever made) and as you said, Johnny, working inside the door panels is a real bitch. I've changed enough electric window motors (mine doesn't have 'em, thank Providence) and other parts in 'em to have scars on both arms from the sheet metal. I wouldn't wanna swap glass/Lexan back and forth. Besides...I've got too much other stuff to do before September. I guess I otta go out to the garage and swing a wrench or two.
Hope to see ya on the salt.
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For runs the USFRA rules for 130 and 150 are outside the rule book. I don't think USFRA cares about your window up to the max. mark for the 150 club.
When joining either the SCTA-BNI or USFRA for class record runs then you must comply. And, you have until 2012 to bring your frameless windows into compliance. Don't read into the rules what is not there. Jack Dolan says "don't date outside your species."
DW
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Can't you make some sort of temporary receiver that fastens to the window frame in the roof and the quarter window. Then the door window would roll up into after the door is closed. It would need to be stiff enough to hold the glass without being much of a hindrance if you needed to open the door without first opening the window. But I think that could be done.
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i would rather tear out the weather stripping and make a channel(s) for the windows. it would be a LOT easier for those of us with this issue and still be a registered street car.
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i keep looking at my car and i think the rules commitee should look at this again. if this has been an aero issue before, going to lexan with braces isn't going to be much of a help w/o having the window roll up into a channel. i know the aero around these windows isn't the greatest, but channels would be a lot better and would hold the window in and we can keep our glass.
i would send this to the rules people, but don't who or where to send it to.
john
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www.scta-bni.org
On the left side of the web page scroll down to rule & regs and click to open
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thanks
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Look up how drag racers latch the top of the window to the inside of the car.
Something like this: http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h318/fbcfab2004/SSPX0241.jpg
See the button on the front/upper side? It secures the window frame to the car, preventing it from buffeting back and forth. There's really no need for a "channel" if you make the perimeter frame and properly brace it to the door body.
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As I see it the last thing I would want is a channel. In an emergency who's going to roll down the window? There are some, maybe even many, with electric window which still work and maybe a switch on the outside would be necessary; but remember you just killed all the power with outside battery cut off switch cause you heard a pump running.
I too would look to the NHRA if I had a vehicle with frameless windows. They have bracing and a latch which operates from the inside and outside. . . . .good luck
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Last year I ran a car 205mph with frameless windows, no latch system and experienced no problems with buffeting. I used a 1/2" square thin wall steel tube, formed it to the perimeter of the window. I riveted 1/8" lexan to the tube. A nice touch is to paint the perimeter of the window black to hide the tube.
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OK here is a question or two.
The rule book says" starting 2012 all vehicles with frame-less side windows ...must have all non-laminated windows constructed of poly-cabonate material"
I can understand requiring the replacement of the side window with poly-carbonate material. But why require replacing for example the rear window because the side window is frame-less? Or was the intention of the rule that just the side windows be replaced?
The second question is about the definition of frame-less side windows. I would think that this means a convertible or hardtop style window. However the Avanti has a hardtop style window that doesn't roll up into the frame of the door but it does have a frame around 2 sides and the third side roles up into a channel on the wind-wing frame. So what is the rule committees definition of a frame-less side window?
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Why don't you ask your question on www.scta-bni.org?
DW
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Dan,
I will but I also know that you everything or at least almost everything!
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The reason it's suggested that rules requests be sent to the SCTA web site is for new people to use the proper procedures to assure the correct answers are supplied. Not all answers on this site are official. The SCTA web site is there to help the racer that wants to run under their venues are up to date with the latest information.
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And Glen Barrett wins the "best understatement of the week" award!! :cheers: :cheers: He said:
"Not all answers on this site are official."
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Actually none are!
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Why don't you ask your question on www.scta-bni.org?
DW
Not complaining here Dan, just making an observation as a newcomer/younger guy. We are so used to online resources and instant answers to our questions that the SCTA website seems archaic and slow. As noted by others email responses about specific questions sometimes take a long time. The SCTA could do well hiring a true web pro like Ryan Cochran (Atomic Industries/HAMB/JalopyJournal) to setup a site and basic forum for questions. Not something to replace Jons fine forum here, but a technical page that you would have to be a registered racer/BNI payed applicant etc to access. The various Tech people and committees would be able to answer these questions in a controlled environment.
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Why don't you ask your question on www.scta-bni.org?
DW
Not complaining here Dan, just making an observation as a newcomer/younger guy. We are so used to online resources and instant answers to our questions that the SCTA website seems archaic and slow. As noted by others email responses about specific questions sometimes take a long time. The SCTA could do well hiring a true web pro like Ryan Cochran (Atomic Industries/HAMB/JalopyJournal) to setup a site and basic forum for questions. Not something to replace Jons fine forum here, but a technical page that you would have to be a registered racer/BNI payed applicant etc to access. The various Tech people and committees would be able to answer these questions in a controlled environment.
Great idea! Sure save in the long run, as Iam sure there are a basic core of questions asked over and over and over..........
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There are a lot of people that have been involved with LSR (SCTA/BNI) for many years. There are several racing venues that use this site as a guide line. Each has it's own rules. Dan, JD, Myself and a couple of others try to assist where we can for SCTA. The other venues do the same. Directing you to the correct one is important that questions be handled by each venue.
Quotes by Dan are from the new rules this year and he is only trying to assure that we understand them. There are times when the wording has to be changed after the rule book is printed. It is posted on the SCTA web site and on landracing.com as a courtesy to the racer.
Don't stop asking the questions as all of us need to know the answers, just direct them to the proper venue.
:cheers:
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Glen -
I don't want to come across as mean, but asking questions of, and getting responses from SCTA-BNI has become, for me anyway, a long, drawn-out process of being bumped around from official to official, emails "falling through the cracks", and a general lack of promptness.
Sending a request via the website has proven itself to be a fools errand.
Now don't get me wrong, I KNOW it's a volunteer organization. I've been involved in such organizations in different fields, and I imagine the question load can be oppressive. Additionally, I'm new to this "building a race car" thing, so I try to do my homework and suss out as much information as possible ahead of time in order to ask intelligent questions and make reasonable requests that won't waste anybody's time.
I recently directed a request for an approval that went unanswered for better than 5 months. I was told an e-mail would be sent to put in my log book at inspection. I've followed through with e-mails and phone calls - I'm still waiting.
I currently have a question regarding the new lateral restraints that has gone unanswered. Given some of the stories I've seen here regarding the last Elmo meet, I'm probably not the only one.
I'm torn between being a pest and respecting the member's time, but the racing season is upon us, and I'm not getting the responses I need to move forward.
Maybe it's easier on the coast - monthly face time at Elmo has to account for something - but this new BNI member sure feels stranded in the heartland.
Can I get a witness?
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Well, everyone knows I'm new to this, but I've had good luck getting answers to all my questions. Even though I sometimes call and chat about the question, I always follow up with an email, and get the clarification in writing.
DW pointed me to to chairperson early on. The chairperson gave me the contacts for the committee people I would need. I've asked for about 20 clarifications, and received answers for all of them. Some have been within hours, some took two weeks, but again, all have been clarified.
The rule book can be tough for a new guy , I know. Everyone has been great on getting me answers, even though I know they must be tired of my inquiries!
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The reason I brought it up here is because my questions of late have been regarding new or newer rules - similar to the new window rule.
In the past, I simply contacted the persons directly, with mixed results.
Dan, is the "Rule Change Procedure" link the one you are referring to? I never wanted to change a rule, so I never went there.
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Chris, it may be that the people or committees that you have to go through are busier than the vintage folks? Not sure, but the vintage guys have been great!
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Chris,
There is a Rule Change and Rule Clarification form on the same page.
www.scta-bni.org, front page, left column, about the third button down, scroll to bottom of pafe.
Please PM me with the contact you have been trying to work with and I'll see if I can move this along.
DW
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For the umpteenth time, I want to remind everyone how great it is to have Dan, Nathan, Glen and other SCTA and BNI veterans help us all out with their responses, research and patience in dealing with the newbies, and yes us oldbies (?) too.
Rule books are what we are governed by and I am glad I don't have the thankless job of trying to make any rule that is "all class" inclusive.
That said, errors and misunderstandings happen, as do cloudy explaination's.
This site is what gives us all a chance to digest and attempt to clarify these rules.
For that we owe a debt of gratitude (and cash!) to Jon Amo and SSS, alias Jon W.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Bob
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For the umpteenth time, I want to remind everyone how great it is to have Dan, Nathan, Glen and other SCTA and BNI veterans help us all out with their responses, research and patience in dealing with the newbies, and yes us oldbies (?) too.
Rule books are what we are governed by and I am glad I don't have the thankless job of trying to make any rule that is "all class" inclusive.
That said, errors and misunderstandings happen, as do cloudy explaination's.
This site is what gives us all a chance to digest and attempt to clarify these rules.
For that we owe a debt of gratitude (and cash!) to Jon Amo and SSS, alias Jon W.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Bob
Yes! Those 3 have aready helped a TON and I have yet to cut any steel on our car! :cheers:
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Bob, Tman - I couldn't agree more. Dan, Nate, Glen - crème de la crème.
Dan - I'll be in touch - expect a PM.
And yes - the forum has stopped me from making some catastrophic decisions, and stopped me from asking questions that might be a waste of time for someone. Due diligence can be fairly well obtained within the search function here. It's not the last word, but it will definitely shed light on important issues with respect to LSR. Thanks, Jon, for making this go.
I didn't want this to come off as a whiny criticism - these folks have lives, too, and as widespread as this sport has become in recent years, it's got to be tough to field and keep track of all the inquires they receive, work their day jobs, maintain a family, AND go racing. Believe me when I say, I completely understand how non-response occurs - I'm certain it's not malicious - and I'm certain that they ARE busy. I raise my glass to the volunteers who make this sport possible.
I intend to remain polite and respectful, but WOS is right around the corner, and I WILL be ratcheting up the persistence.
And I apologize for this hijack. Let's talk windows - I've got two more to build, and I'm curious as to how this discussion will turn out.
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I'm also upset with the side windows change for 2012. In the last 5 years as being one of the 3 timers for Speed Week and 2 race courses for World Finals, If only seen one car ( I think a Corvette) blow out a side window which caused us one hour of down time trying to clean the tempered glass off the course. I don't want to have to change my side windows on my Avanti for a rule change that doesn't happen that often, I feel its a bad rule, but majority wins in the vote we do in the different rules committees (I'm on the Coupe/Sedan rule committee) each year. Maybe they will reconsider this rule change, Dave :-(
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Got to disagree with you AK, any preventable delay is a bad delay, especially if you are one of the next several guys in line that has been suited up and in the car for 10-20 minutes already. I think there is also an issue with spins induced by the out of balance aero caused by window loss, not to mention all those folks out there picking up little chunks of glass.
Of course my tune might be different is either of mine had windows... :|
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I'm finding out that the side windows, is a lot harder to change to Lexan than I thought. My side windows curve, couldn't get the 3/16" lexan to form to the glass, trying to build a frame now to make it curve. Probably going to have to use 1/8". haven't yet started to engineer the rear side glass.
Steve
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Dave,
Since they have not defined "frameless" and our side windows do have a frame around the glass on two sides and the third side fits into a channel I think we could argue that our cars do not have frameless side windows.
More importantly why would having frameless side windows require you to change all of the windows that are not laminated? The style of the side window has no impact on the rear window!
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Dan,
I have submitted the questions through the SCTA-BNI website. Can we also send emails to the people listed on the rules committee?
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David (64 Avanti) I agree that our side windows on the Avanits are not frameless so this may not apply to us but sure is going to cause some confusion in inspection process next year!! This may not be a problem for my race team because after 18 years of racing at Muroc, El Mirage and Bonneville, this year at Speed Week is our last year in Land Speed racing, can't afford it any more in my retirement, but I will continue in being a volunteer for SCTA at Bonneville and El Mirage in conducting the timing on the the race courses, I enjoy all the Land Speed racers and race officials too much to stop helping with the races, its a great experience!! thanks Dave (Avanti Kid racing) :cheers:
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On my 1971 Camaro the side windows are frameless, that being said I took the initiative to replace rollers, channel felt, and other various things and adjustment to make my window fit tight. No problems to dang near 260. Also a lexan window can blow out of the car too, thus upsetting car aero and handling. What ever happened to racers making sure their equipment is up to standards and thus eliminating rules for every situation that could happen? Just a thought.
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We had problems with our windows flexing outward at speeds over 270, we added velcro to help with this problem. It worked! :cheers:
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x324/bvillercrr/4f40e67e.jpg)
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The piece of velcro being held is wrapped around the roll bar inside, and we can still open door with velcro attached.
Most cars with frameless windows have a locking tab that clamps over the window when door shuts preventing blowout,and unclamps when opened. Does the rule committee know that, does everyone that voted
for this rule know that?
I got several at the local Pick A Part wrecking yard then came up with this simpler idea.
JL222
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We had problems with our windows flexing outward at speeds over 270, we added velcro to help with this problem. It worked! :cheers:
LOVE IT! Velcro! The SCIENTIST'S duct tape! :cheers:
jl222 - any pics? I take it when the door is closed, you have some sort of L shaped piece that hinges on the verex?
Two best tips I've seen on this topic - thanks.
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We had problems with our windows flexing outward at speeds over 270, we added velcro to help with this problem. It worked! :cheers:
LOVE IT! Velcro! The SCIENTIST'S duct tape! :cheers:
jl222 - any pics? I take it when the door is closed, you have some sort of L shaped piece that hinges on the verex?
Two best tips I've seen on this topic - thanks.
After your post I looked for the units but couldn't find them, but I do have a spec sheet that I got from John Rains for the Firebird and Camaros that had them [not all did] of course they don't make that part anymore for our year. I thought that I might find it at Pick a Part, none of the Camaros had them but found them on lots of other cars. They're hard to see as they're mounted in the weather stripping at top of body.
JL222
I'll ask Bvillercr to post a pic later this week.
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Studebaker had a similar system in the mid 50's and perhaps earlier for the hardtops.
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Having worked many years running a GM parts department, I remember the part that you are talking about that prevented the front upper corner of the glass from moving outward as the speed went up. GM had a very scientific name for them. They were called "blowout clips". Shaped to fit at the upper front corner of the weather strip, they had a little groove in them that the glass slid into as the door closed and the glass compressed the strip and slid into the groove. You will find them on most any GM A body car from about 1970- 1976. [if they all haven't been crushed and sent to China]. They were really effective if the glass was adjusted right.
Doug :cheers: :cheers:
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We had problems with our windows flexing outward at speeds over 270, we added velcro to help with this problem. It worked! :cheers:
(http://i1176.photobucket.com/albums/x324/bvillercrr/4f40e67e.jpg)
This easy Velcro fix was tested at 294mph average in the 1st timed mile with an indicated top speed of 318 mph when piston let go at end of 1st mile.
Maybe the rules could be amended to '' A method of preventing window blowout will be provided''
JL222
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This is a great idea. The blow out clips and the window adjusted right seems to be a solution for these cars with frameless windows. I like the safety advantage of being able to roll the window down if needed. With lexan and bracing I doubt you can do that.
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How do you get the velcro tabs to glue to the lexan? I used silicon to glue the rear side lexan into the frame as was the original glass, and thought it would hold, but when sliding it into the receiver the lexan came loose. Next time around, I will put some bolts through it, but I hate drilling holes through OEM stuff that can't be replaced. :|
Steve
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The velcro on our car was on glass, we haven't installed our lexan side windows yet. :-P
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On Lexan, you could use a combination of epoxy and pop rivets.
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Thanks I will give the epoxy a whirl.
Steve
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On the side windows you could also use Hartwell latches like NASCAR does to keep the windows on. On my friends Firebird we will use the latches to keep the top of the window frame held down to the body and cam locks for the window Tony