Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: DocBeech on January 24, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
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So my question is can we just add a Rotary Category. I know some people are jealous :-P that a 1.3L engine is capable of the kind of performance we get. 3.9L is just to much of a handicap. I couldn't get that kind of displacement if I wanted to. 2.6L is more reasonable. I completely agree with doubling it, but tripling? Where did they find the room for the extra .65L per rotor. Yes there are 3 sides to a rotor but the way the motor works only two sides are open at a time. To me its the same thing as saying on a four stroke engine you are going to count each cylinder twice since it gets two chances to burn off the fuel. Even the SCCA only doubles the handicap. Who do we need to propose this to. Because right now its set up in a way that seems to me like they are being a bit biased, and don't want rotary powered vehicles to set records!
I say we either just make a rotary class in the rule book, or we follow the standard which is to double, not triple, the displacement!
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Lemme get a cold one and some popcorn! :wink:
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The rotary engine has been kicked around more then a door stop. Nothing gets changed with out getting the proper form from the SCTA web site and submitting it before the cut off date after speed week.It seems this comes up every year and SCTA has tried to work it out with the membership. OK Dan your turn to reply.
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Hmmmmm,
SECTION 2 CAR COMPETITION SPECIFICATIONS
2.A ENGINES:
Rewrite 2nd sentence, pp 2:
For non-reciprocating engines, equivalent displacement (ED) will be calculated by the following formula: ED=SV x2 where SV is the Swept Volume. The cubic inch to liter conversion shall be computed by the formula: cid/61.024 = liter.
Per the front page.
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FR would be all for a rotary category.
He could run one of these.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk9Dl6RZxmQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk9Dl6RZxmQ)
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Sure enough Dreamweaver!
Good catch. :cheers:
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I don't know what rule set you are looking at but, it was just pointed out that the formula has been adjusted to a x2 factor for 2011.
Look at the front page of this website or on the SCTA website, www.scta-bni.org, for a list of rule changes for 2011. With your 2010 book and these changes you have all the rules needed.
DW
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All this discussion is BS anyway.
I have thoroughly looked over the rotary motor and concept and conclude without a doubt that it is impossible for them to run.
~JH
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JHN, you have really made me feel bad, I spent 2-1/2 years back in the 80 trying to get one of these things to make HPs and now I find out they can't!! We did make a lot of noise and flame.
Rex
PS: And 310 hp at 10,500 rpm!
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This thread is funny. :-D
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Our good mate Dave Partridge has an RX7, it has a megaphone that is guaranteed to annoy even inanimate objects , the last time he had it at the salt he would get a round of applause everytime he turned it off.......the only person who doesn't think that is funny is Dave, there is something unsettling about the sound of those things, when they are worked and have an exhaust system that says go forth and multiply to the EPA they're just plain menacing..... :wink:
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Remember to add a good supply of headache tablets and hearing protection to your list of necessities for Speedweek! :evil: :evil: :evil:
Pete
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Well its my rant :P. But on that note the old rule from before was X3. So they fixed it:P I didn't read the new rules lol.
Hey I like my rotary engine lol. Its a fun novelty. But I am not sure that a propeller driven car is going to be a project I care to much to try to do.
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Personally i think that a rotary engine is an ideal engine for a belly tank etc, small, high revving and enough power to get the right car moving to the desired speeds that one is aiming for. I also think the low torque output is an advantage for traction down low in the speed zone. There is enough technology out the to get N/A rotary moving to set some records.
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I have to agree with Isr202 a "good" 13B with peripheral port housings, I have hear can get to the up side of 350 hp and that is certainly getting competitive with almost any 3 liter recip engine unless you buy a Cosworth or one of the double Hayabusa V8s, and they are small and light weight but very noisy!!
Rex
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Personally i think that a rotary engine is an ideal engine for a belly tank etc, small, high revving and enough power to get the right car moving to the desired speeds that one is aiming for. I also think the low torque output is an advantage for traction down low in the speed zone. There is enough technology out the to get N/A rotary moving to set some records.
me too :wink:
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Doc,
First let me thank you for your service and welcome to the board.
The rotary is not dead, there is still a hotly contested record at Bonneville in the C/BGMS class at 242 MPH. This record was set in 1995 with the Racing Beat RX7.
I believe that the revised x2 factor may make this engine a viable option in some classes.
There is a thread on this board that was beat on pretty good. I bet 4 barrel Mike can find it and post the link.
DW
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I wonder if maybe the Wankle rotary motor shouldn't be classed by itself.
If you look at the design, it almost would qualify as a turbin more than a reciprocating motor.
The sound of a improperly rotary is almost like the old IRL cars, sickening. Very few have been done correctly and sometimes the piping has to be folded because the car is not long enough. Adding a turbo or two can really make some HP, not to mention some real heat. Some of the drifting guys are running this setup, really long powerband and steady torque.
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Separating into a stand alone engine class would add maybe 500+ classes.
You know that if one guy wants to run one in a lakester someone else would want a roadster, then a gas coupe, don't forget a pick up. etc.
DW
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Mine at 2.6L Is pushing around 250HP N/A. My compression is low from age though. The new 3.2L is around 330HP. It doesn't get released until 2012 though. But regardless at 9,800RPM I am getting about 250HP with very little modifications. The stock cooling system is garbage we had to design a new one. Design new oil lines and replace the injectors. The apex and side seals have to be replaced with ceramics. Even mazda knew the intake wasn't good enough so they came out with a new intake that reduces the amount of air disturbance in the engine bay. They replaced the transmission with a new more reliable one that gets about 3 - 5 HP less. Changing out to a lighter fly wheel can counteract this though. They make a pretty good ACT counter weight and BHR fywheel for our vehicles.
One advantage you can create is with the SOHN adapter. It replaced the Oil Metering Pump with a reservoir system so you don't use dirty oil from the pan for injection. Also a huge adaptation we have found that works is to increase the oil injection by about 35%. At least that number I used and got results. Adding Idimetsu premix at about 1/2 oz for every gallon to the fuel improves the seal during compression and gives you a little more power from the improved seal. It also gives you better engine reliability.
The light weight of the engine I feel gives a huge advantage. It only weighs about 110lbs. I am curious though. Since the run is so short including the return trip I wonder how much HP can be gained from not having a belt around the Alternator or the AC system just running a deep cycle battery.
DW - They already have a pickup truck its the REPU Mazda built in 1974. They also have the RE5 Suzuki.
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In SCTA events you don't get to drive the return trip. :-o :-o :-o
Pete
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Well Doc,
There ya go, more classes, more pages, etc. You shouls start a poll here to see how many will support the stand alone class. I'm willing to bet the totals will swing somewhere towards the smae kind of support the NASCAR class got.
DW
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It'll be interesting to see how many more rotaries show up and how many records get broken now that the rule has changed. It'll also be interesting to see how many people propose to change it back once said records have been lost.
Or maybe nothing will happen at all...
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I plan on showing up once my build is complete. Why would you be mad that your record was broken :P Isn't that what its there for. Someone to come along down the line that got that couple extra MPH out of a car :P
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There are some on this board who are under the impression that the rules are written by those that want to protect their own record. No one else is invited to the secret meeting hall.
DW
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I plan on showing up once my build is complete. Why would you be mad that your record was broken :P Isn't that what its there for. Someone to come along down the line that got that couple extra MPH out of a car :P
A simple question to you. Would you still show up and race if the formula stayed at x3? :-o
I always thought it should have been x2.5 anyway.......... :-P
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Other than safety...every proposed rule I have seen in over 30 years was to do one of 2 things. PERIOD.
#1. give the writer, or his buddy so no one would know, an advantage. The rotary rule is no different it's just this year it got by and like Nathan says we shall see if it is was correct.
#2. eliminate someone who , if was felt by someone, HAD an advantage as the rules were currently written and make them leave or quit...Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't...... :-D
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JD,
Is that the thinking behind NASCAR's recent point realignment? The Jimmie Johnson rule. Ironic that the new points system will give you a max. of 48 points per race if you win, lead one lap, and lead the most laps.
DW
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Shameful behavior writing rules to protect your own record so that no one else could ever beat it :-P :evil:
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DW..if Jimmy wins six....I think they will shoot him. :-(
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:-( I liked Jimmy before he ever won a race. I have stuff from his rookie year but really started following him every race in 2002. Y'all be nice, you had your chances to pick and you chose other drivers. I just hope you didn't choose cry baby stewart :P
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Other than safety...every proposed rule I have seen in over 30 years was to do one of 2 things. PERIOD.
#1. give the writer, or his buddy so no one would know, an advantage. The rotary rule is no different it's just this year it got by and like Nathan says we shall see if it is was correct.
#2. eliminate someone who , if was felt by someone, HAD an advantage as the rules were currently written and make them leave or quit...Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't...... :-D
I think in this case this rule change fixes a disadvantage that has existed for many many years. I'd say the playing field has now been leveled. It never made sense to me to have a 80 cid motor run against a 250 cid motor. Same reason we have gas and fuel classes and blown and unblown classes now.
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Doc....I have always been a "Jimmy" fan since he came out of the short tracks of lower So Cal. He along with Tory are my picks every year.
Nathan...If we see that most "F" class records are heald by rotorys in the next years we will know that the advantage just changed from "against" them to "for" them. Like back a few posts; it's a wait and see....