Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: trader on December 21, 2005, 10:41:56 PM
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I saw this as an engine class only available in the Special Construction Category. Can someone tell me what engines qualify for this class. Glad to be the newest dummy on this site...trader...
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I always thought that was for turbine engines. Maybe steam? Maybe something else? Steriling? What do you have?
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Turbine and steam have there own classes (streamliners)
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rubberband wind up motors.............
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Maybe - Miller or Brayton (gas turbine)
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a turbine is a turbine and will have to run in the turbine class :lol:
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Yes a Miller cycle came to mind as well as a sleeve valve or 2 stroke. I know that there are separate classes for steam, turbine, and electric. I am curious if it relates to a production engine, or if ingenuity is an option. The secondary criteria is if it will be a suffix to an cu. in. class or would be weight. It is obvious I do not have a rule book to reference and I do not see any records for this particular class. It is a curiosity to me as to the guidelines for this special class. Someone has some insight???????
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There was a Mazda 929 I believe that had a production engine --Miller Cycle some time ago?
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Correct Gazza , Mazda do dabble in non otto cycle :) I also read somewhere about them trying out nano particle metal to fuel a stirling engine
http://drive.com.au/editorial/article.aspx?id=10663&vf=2&bg=1&pp=0
Gary
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As soon as they figure out how big a Roadster should be or even looks like, I am sure they will get right on it.
Fraction Control won't be far behind.
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I think the rubber band wins, at least Kent thinking out of the sack or is that box.
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Well actually the steam record car was a turbine. Should it run in the turbine class? In the older days the Thunderbird Turbine held the "Omega" class record. Later the "Turbine" and other classes were added. Now I think it stands for something no ones thought of yet. Except maybe FR.
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RF and FR could be taken for the same person if one doesn't know. Isn't that 2500 cu/in tank engine or the Packard a little out of the ordnary. Ah what the heck at least you will run yours.LOL
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I am NOT FR! Isn't a '32 Plymouth far enough out of the ordinary? The Packard is getting pretty close to actually doing something. Not sure what. Hey, post #104. How cool.
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Hey RF, only 104 posts, Jack Dolan has over 886 posts a more points then even Kent Riches. We ain't even close
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The Nash MR with the 4vpc and the sideways pushrods and the belt driven blower that thought it was a turbo and fed by the mechnical FI from Mercedes was really cool.
The coolest part was either the quick change on the input shaft or the Dyno pump that replaced the trans so all the systems could be tested in the car.
That is the stuff of dreams and some wake up screaming.
Want me to go get it ? :wink:
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The Nash MR with the 4vpc and the sideways pushrods and the belt driven blower that thought it was a turbo and fed by the mechnical FI from Mercedes was really cool.
The coolest part was either the quick change on the input shaft or the Dyno pump that replaced the trans so all the systems could be tested in the car.
That is the stuff of dreams and some wake up screaming.
Want me to go get it ? :wink:
Bruce's car sure was unique, seems people who think like you two come from the same part of town.
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He was from Arizona but he first went to work near enough to my dad's place in SD that I watched him the whole time as a kid.
He never gets old and I never grew up. LOL
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Glen,
You missed the point.
104 is Rich's car number, I'm sure the posts will exceed this count soon.
DW
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Dan\I thought it was his speed at Elmo with a tail wind, but his posts say 104, but what the heck it's something to argue about and it gives Dolan & Riches something to add to the (what the hell is an Omega).
Glen (loving retirement)
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Glen,
You missed the point.
104 is Rich's car number, I'm sure the posts will exceed this count soon.
DW
Rich will never post agian so he can keep his 104!
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Dan, Mike's number is 847 and it will take him years to catch up with Dolan and Riches post and points. Even with a tail wind.
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Thats a good answer.
1000 points to Glen and Mike.
DW
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Dan
Glad you comply, hope you, Jonie and kids had a great Christmas.
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It's almost 2006, what are we s'pose ta do with our points?
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what points, the ones that count are at El Mirage.
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Each point here has 1 mil exchange value and I have my eye on one of those stickers.
Nobody has scored as many points as I have in a season at El Mirage and it has been it's own reward.
I have a season pass for going to Dizyland and it's a good thing. :wink:
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Jack's season pass to dizzyland is a second job he wears the goofy costume, barks at the moon or moons the crowd.
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Actually I am the coach of a whole crew of "Goofy" types that keep me away with money.
My daughter said that Dizzyland was packed yesterday. Seeworld was the same as I sailed by.
I gotta get Kalbach down here sailing while it is still winter.
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Jack, the only sailing Kalbach does in on El Mirage in one of them 3 wheel things he won't get wet in. Sailing in the San De-eggo bay just north of TJ is like trying to cross the border on a holiday. besides that you are such a clever pal to him you would give him a left handed oar and put him on the right side. You would have him going in circles and trying to row fast enough for you to water ski.
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I have my choice of 2 bays. The other is Mission Bay and it is over 1 mile away. The Pacific Ocean is almost 5 miles, but at least I have the boat for it.
I have talked with him before about it and you are correct, I think he wants you to paddle the other side so I can ski.
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Jack, Kalbach might use that big paddle to smack your back side LOL
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Okay, I hate to break up this little love fest, but I have to admit my ignorance and ask: What the hell is an "OMEGA" engine?
I've googled, I've asked Jeeves, I've been referred (by a search engine) back to the SCTA rulebook -- I've seen Stirling, Otto cycle, Miller cycle, Omega (brand) radio control engines, stuff for that little Oldsmobile -- but nothing that looks like a serious answer.
Sorry to try to inject a little seriousness. . .
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Okay, I know now. I've been enlightened. Thanks to all that sent me all of thoe interesting answers, most of which I discarded instantly.
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Engines other than Otto cycle is really pretty easy.
A Wankel has a formula that allows it to run with them for the most part because it also comes in a production car as does a 2 stroke and a compression ignition. The formula may not agree with someone that has ever been beat by one but there you have it.
The other than Otto is said to be externally powered as would be the case of an electric, steam (regardless of the final mechanics) and gas turbine.
All of these are wheel driven eventually no matter how you get there. Thrust might be a component , but the primary drive must make it go down the road by turning the wheels.
The huge demand has generated many hours dedicated to selling T-shirts and I don't see much action for the QMGODA class anytime soon.
But if you want to be listed as an entry, you can skip building the vehicle and just send the money. :wink:
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Jack, arn't all Otto cycle powered vehicles required to be rear engine, with rear steer and the QC gears upside down and a propeller running backwards to slow it down and to have pontoons in case it rear steers into the briny salt ponds near the highway.
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Now you are speaking of Franl Otto and spilling all his speed secrets. You were sworn to silence and you might have to be banished to Utah forever.
Don't push it fat boy ! LOL
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The following classes are independent of the rules governing the Streamliner and Lakester ( Special Construction Category) as they have no limit to body/tire configuration. They also are not G(as) or F(uel) or D(iesel) governed like the remainder of the other engine/body classes. I do not believe they fall into the Omega engine class.
TURBINE VEHICLE - /T
This class is for vehicles using turbine power (external combustion), as the sole means of propulsion. The vehicles must be wheel driven, either front or rear. Four wheel drive is allowed. THE BODY CONFIGURATION IS UNLIMITED. The class will be based on vehicle weight less driver. The entrant MUST provide an annual weight certificate for classification purposes.
Class I under 1099 lb. (less than 500 kg)
Class II 1100-2200 lb. (500-1000kg)
Class III 2201 lb. and over (over 1000 kg)
ELECTRIC VEHICLE - /E
This class is for vehicles using electric power as the sole means of propulsion. The vehicles must be wheel driven, either front or rear. Four wheel drive is allowed. THE BODY CONFIGURATION IS UNLIMITED. The class will be based on vehicle weight less driver. The entrant MUST provide an annual weight certificate for classification purposes.
Class I under 1099 lb. (less than 500 kg)
Class II 1100-2200 lb. (500-1000kg)
Class III 2201 lb. and over (over 1000 kg)
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The Omega engine option is only available to the Streamliner and Lakester Engine Classes. I assume it is governed by the same criteria that applies to all the other engine categories.
STREAMLINER - /BFS, /FS, /BGS, /GS, /DS
Engine classes allowed are (Omega), AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, XO, XF, XXF, XXO, & V4.
LAKESTER - /BFL, /FL, /BGL, /GL
Engine classes allowed are: (Omega), AA, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, XF, XO, XXF, XXO & V4.
These are all-out straightaway vehicles with non-stock engine blocks allowed. Innovation is unlimited.
I assume that the "Omega" designation is a prefix to all of these engine classes. ie (omega)C/BFL or (omega)C/FL or (omega)C/GL... The other problem being that a Miller Cycle is supercharged as is a Detroit 2 cycle Diesel. So would there be a blown and unblown class. The part I am curious about is "innovation is unlimited". Does this mean I can take a production 4 cycle engine and make it a 2 stroke or 3 stroke or whatever, as opposed to how it was produced. Or can I take and cast and machine whatever assy I want and call it an Omega engine? :idea: I am sure some one knows the history of why this class was originated, and can explain the ?????????????'s
Letter Cubic Inch Displacement Approximate Liter Equiv.
AA 501 cid and over 8.21 liters and over
A 440 thru 500 7.21 to 8.19
B 373 thru 439 6.11 to 7.19
C 306 thru 372 5.01 to 6.10
D 261 thru 305 4.27 to 5.00
E 184 thru 260 3.01 to 4.26
F 123 thru 183 2.01 to 3.00
G 93 thru 122 1.51 to 2.00
H 62 thru 92 1.01 to 1.50
I 46 thru 61 0.76 to 1.00
J 31 thru 45 0.51 to 0.75
K 30 cid and under 0.50 and under
Conversion Factor: 61.026 ci / liter
Letter (Reference Rulebook for details)
1 Electric/Turbine Vehicle Weight I
2 Electric/Turbine Vehicle Weight II
3 Electric/Turbine Vehicle Weight III
U for UDT, MDT, HH2 & HH3 Body Classes
XF Production V-8 flathead Ford/Mercury 1932-1953
XO Overhead valve & flathead inline
XXF XF with overhead valves
XXO XO engine with a speciality cylinder head
V4 Vintage pre-1935 American 4 bangers
V4F Vintage pre-1935 American 4 bangers - Flathead
M Midget Vintage Engine
W Omega Engines using a thermodynamic cycle other than Otto
NOTE: Double Check with the actual Rulebook for details.
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Jack, now you have to be re-trained, trader says so, and you don't know squat.LOL Besides I think Dan W. needs to answer this anyway he writes the rule book every year.
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I was letting this one go - sometimes its funny to see the various answers.
The Omega(Greek symbol) engine class is like the turbine/steam/electric classes. There are no engine breaks and the body configuration is open. You cannot take an Otto cycle engine 2/3/4 or whatever stroke and build something out of it and call it Omega. This engine class is for non-Otto cycle engines only.
DW
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I was clueless. I didn't understand the question so the answer never stood a chance.
I am spending a lot of my time these days dealing with "Fraction Control" so as not to disturb any "Sand Bags". LOL
The last "Steamer" I saw was the "Teapot" . It was built from a Bradley GT kit. The only Electric I had anything to do with was the Kawi Lakester I built for Wendy and after Lloyd set a record the way I built it, he made it an Electric and set another record.
I am kinda new at this and really shy.
Don't hit me.
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...nice one Jack ....I had a friend who was once charged with being "Frunk in a public place"...I suggested he contest the charge since he hadn't even been frinking.. he did his brief...and no , his name wasn't Otto , he ran resonably well on ethanol though. :wink:
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I suspect if you show up with a miller cycle engine in a mazda you would be put into whatever class any other supercharged 2.3 litre engine would be running depending on the body class etc. All a Miller is is a supercharged Otto four stroke with modified intake valve timing. They are held open for the first part of the compression stroke. If you are really interested just google on 'mazda miller cycle' and folks smarter than I will give the details in a variety of web sites. Near as I recall the only miller cycle mazdas in the states were the Millenia S models. They were 2.3 litre v6 engines.
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This Miller cycle talk reminds you of the Isky ads in the 60's about what Ed called his 5 cycle cams . I think Chet Herbert was actualy the one who came up with the idea of top fuel cams that had enough overlap to blow raw fuel past the exhaust valves to keep them from being glow plugs (Herbert cycle?). Was it Engle who had the ad in Drag News with 4 racing bicycles followed by a clown on a tricycle poking fun at Isky .
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It was Crower that showed me how ragged those cams were that closed so fast and late they bounced on the seat unless you had a huge spring setup that killed the action. They had so much strain on them that twist under power made a joke out of the timing towards the back of the cam and breakage was common.
Gentle on the valve train and long lasting sold a lot of parts to the circle track bunch.
The valve bouncers were nicknamed the 6 cycle and the promoters loved the broken ones more than the fire out the stack. It was fun watching the raw fuel out the bottom of the same pipe as the flame at idle. It wasn't that much fun if you were pushing back a front motored car.
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so it sounds like the only "other than otto" power, is a rubberband!
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As a matter of semantics, does the SCTA consider all 2 cycle (2 stroke) engines to be "Otto Cycle", without exception?
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So far, yes. I'm not that smart on stuff. Tell us what you have and I can get the proper answer for you,
DW
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:? DOES A SUPERCHARGED 2 STROKE = OTTO????? I went through this about 10 years ago with vesco and jim? a scta and they said at that time it would just run in cu in class, although 2 strks should'nt. I am working on opposed piston supercharged 2 strk [junkers] eng. will it still be able to run in bgmr?? in my 23 okland, I could put in lakester just as easy,but looking at the records I would have to down size cu in to find tires for the speed these cars run. What are the 300 + guys doing for tires anyway?
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Forced induction from outside the motor is supercharged. A top fed by a blower 2 stroke is supercharged. A crankcase fed 2 stroke is not.
No matter what Otto said, spark ignition is just what it is and compression ignition is a diesel.
Stroke it as many times as you want, but how it gets there and how you get it lit are not the same.
You can suck it, blow it , fuel it, and steam it, but if it goes through batteries and an electric motor before it get to the ground it is electric. If you make steam with it and drive the wheels with that, it is a steamer, no matter if you you use pistons, blades , or both. If you go straight from fuel to blades to drive the wheels, you are a turbine and can't park near the pissing guys.
If it does not drive through the specified number of wheels,that blows and it just sucks because you have to run it another time.
I think. :wink:
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Jack -
One of the most understandable answers you have ever given.
Job well done!
DW
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That was slightly irreverent but much better than the old days.
While I am more content to let things die, I still enjoy the hunt. :wink:
OBTW: Wanna buy a watch ?
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:?: I know an external blower is supercharged , thus BGMR. but does the 2 strk part still qualify as otto or does it have to go to omega?? Was going to use p-38 9.6 blower , decided these have a bad surge problem , have a new one if anyone need one. russ.
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Surge is the product of mismatched supply and demand.
A reciprocating spark or compression ignition engine is not part of the Omega listings.
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:? Surge line runs real close to pressure line on these blowere, according to eng dsg book, from experience, they fly appart if a tractor snaps an acel or jumps out of gear etc, they are getting hard to find so I don't want to risk the one I have, besides, its patch time on housing. I like gmc's a lot better. russ