Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on September 06, 2010, 05:21:35 PM
-
A machined an adapter to allow me to run a SCB remote oil filter system on my busa motor.
(I would have to pull the engine & remove the header to change the oil filter). This remote system allows me to use any SBC filter.
I want to use a billet reusable filter like Oberg or Trufilter (I would like to see the partials in the oil) but I dont know anything about them. I understand they are expensive for an oil filter.
(I am concerned they Oberg oil filter is only 60 microns)
http://www.obergfilters.com/main.html
http://www.trufilter.com/
Is there some other route I should be going?
~JH
-
Johnny, a couple things people should think about when selecting and where to install oil filters.
I use screen filters on the the return side of the drysump system. The reason is I can inspect this filter after every pass. If you're going to use an inspection / screen type filter use it 'cause it will let you know before major problems most of the time. Now if it's a wet sump system we install a small screen on top of the standard oil filter to help inspect as needed.
As far as engine oil filters go I use paper type. The simple reason is, have you ever removed the oil pan from your engine and run your finger through the "silt" on the bottom? This silt is iron, steel, aluminum, etc. that collects in the bottom of the oil pan when it falls out of suspension. The rings rub on the cylinder walls, valve springs rub on dampeners & retainers, lifters transfer load to there bores.
Screen filters can't / don't filter this fine (some company's do have special synthetic matrix) silt so for the money I like paper type filters to help save my bearings, lifter contacts, piston skirts, etc.
YMMV but works for me.
-
Synthetic media filters have less restriction than paper. There was a discussion on this last year, not sure where it was on the forum here. Based on that, I started buying the better synthetic media oil filters for my cars and trucks where available. Look at the Fleetguard LF3538 as an example synthetic media SBC oil filter.
-
Johnny, a couple things people should think about when selecting and where to install oil filters.
I use screen filters on the the return side of the drysump system. The reason is I can inspect this filter after every pass. If you're going to use an inspection / screen type filter use it 'cause it will let you know before major problems most of the time. Now if it's a wet sump system we install a small screen on top of the standard oil filter to help inspect as needed.
As far as engine oil filters go I use paper type. The simple reason is, have you ever removed the oil pan from your engine and run your finger through the "silt" on the bottom? This silt is iron, steel, aluminum, etc. that collects in the bottom of the oil pan when it falls out of suspension. The rings rub on the cylinder walls, valve springs rub on dampeners & retainers, lifters transfer load to there bores.
Screen filters can't / don't filter this fine (some company's do have special synthetic matrix) silt so for the money I like paper type filters to help save my bearings, lifter contacts, piston skirts, etc.
YMMV but works for me.
Michael... I've been thinking about an inline oil filter on return line especially after blowing piston at speed week and oil, full of metal, returned to dry sump through oil pump and then to filter.
What size screen and oil flow do you recommend or filter Co. #12 line and 60wt thinking going to 70wt.
Thanks JL222
-
Bonded glass filters have ridiculously low micron and pressure drop . They're expensive and only available through industrial hydraulic sources and don't necessarily fit automotive filter heads . I bought one after learning about them from Rex Schimmer . My screen filter is mounted horizontally above the oil level in the tank so little oil is lost during inspection and it's on the pressure side of the suction stages before the tank . Find a place that sells Pall or Parker Hannifin filters and go there in person .
-
Do a search for "filters-filters-filters" Much info there.
-
I would never use a reusable filter. You can't possibly clean it effectively. Throw the filter out. If the cost of oil and filters is a concern then you need better sponsors.
60 microns filters birds and rocks but not much else. 3 microns is more in the range.
You have to look at the particles the filter catches as grinding compound going through your engine.
If you are finding particles, even silt in the bottom of the oil pan then your filter isn't doing anything.
If you are worried about the finer filter choking oil flow then run two filters.
-
I have discussed filters several times and based upon my experience in the hydraulics business Dean is on the right path, something in the 3-10 micron area is the way to go and if you have a dry sump oil system it should be on the line that returns the oil to the tank. An industrial filter with a Beta Ratio of 200 is 99.995% efficient in a single pass. This level of filtration will completely prevent any junk from the engine from going into the main pressure pump. Pall filters has a 7400 and a 7600 series spin on filter line that is good to 150 psi and comes in several sizes and the mounting head is aluminum I would look at this as the very top of the line for a filter. These filters also have very low pressure drop, especially when compared to a paper filter. Other names that have equivalent filters are Parker, Schroeder, Donaldson, Western Filter and Hycon. You should use some sort of filter that uses fiber technology as they have the best efficiency, and lowest pressure drop. Remember if the filter never plugs up then it is not filtering.
Rex
-
If you go with a spin on filter take the time to buy a filter cutter so you can examine it. Good Luck
-
I use a K&p filter and it seems to work really well,I agree about the real tiny bits in the sump but the engine spends most of its life being stripped and worked on rather than being raced and when its apart its cleaned.
http://www.kandpengineering.com/
Oz
-
I use a A/C oilfilter PF35L. It has an synthetic element down around 10-12 microns, and I can get it at my local GM dealer. pn# 25013454. When I first start the motor for break-in, I put a Moroso screen on top, pn#23845. Its a 280 micron screen, so it only catches the really big stuff.
I used to have an Oberg inline filter set up, but it has limited capacity to catch junk. Often it would turn on the plugged up light on in a matter of minutes. Dis-assamble and clean and redo. Just a big oily hassle.
We do every thing in my shop. We have a 'clean room' for engine assembly, but we also fabricate steel,grind, weld, body work,paint,mold fiberglass,etc. Everything, no matter how clean you try to be ,,gets in the air,,, and then in the motor.
Its amazing how much shop towel lint and guard dog hair that 280 micron screen will catch.
RICK
-
At SW we were in the Speed Demon pit area as they were warming up the engine - Correct me if I am wrong but I believe they were using a Baldwin spin-on filter. I remember being a little surprised. I'm sure if they are using one that they are probably very good (for their application of course)
Woz
-
A micron is 40 millionths of an inch. (actually 39.37 millionths). So 60u is about .0024”. That is a smaller particle than the bearing clearance on either my mains or rods. (.0025” to .003”). Depending on length of the particle, it is theoretically possible for a 60u particle to flush right on through. So here is my quandary. Filtration size and pressure drop are inversely proportional. The smaller the size the greater the pressure drop. At least that is what thought until I read the posts from Rex and John. The struggle has always been to get the best filtration with the least pressure drop or flow. The problem is that getting down to the 10u to 20u size is too restrictive. However, synthetic media (as mentioned above) seems to be magic with high filtration values and very low pressure drop! I am not disputing it at all. I would like to know more about this stuff.
Thanks, Rex, I did go to the Pall site and quickly looked at sizes and such. I couldn't find that series number you mentioned and probably need to spend a lot more time on research there. However, if you, or John, have a favorite part number you like, it would be a big help.
Dean, 3u (0.00012”) is finer that anything I have ever run even for a fuel filter. My fuel filter is 10u. With oil being many times more viscous than fuel I don’t see how you get any flow through a 3u oil filter at all! I’m interested and would like to know the brand or style you are running.
I know nothing about synthetic oil filter media and if anyone would like to expand on this topic it would be greatly appreciated.
PS: Thanks to everyone so far . . . a lot of good information. :cheers:
-
What kind of speed improvement would one see going from a 10u to a 3u filter?
Or if its an engine durability issue: How many more runs could the 3u filter guarantee over the 10u before catestrophic damage would occur?
-
Twice a year I change the oil on the Triumph. The oil always had that sheen of silvery suspended metal particles. I used paper element filters. Lately I have been using the little Mobil M1-108 synthetic fiber blend filters. There appears to be much less metal particles in the oil based on visual observation. The engine has not blown up and it was raced this year so enough oil flows through the filter. This is not a scientific test, but it seems that the new synthetic fiber filters work better.
-
Talked to an engineer at Oberg. Basically the guy said their reccomened oil filter has a 60 micron raiting.
He explained the rating was '60 absolute' and said the absolute raiting is not a perfect method (but the better of other methods) as its measured by the largest particle that will pass with no pressure. He also said with pressure and flow the actual filtration went >20m.
He also mentioned their 35 absolute micron fuel filter would separate water molecules from fuel.
He also said that other filter manufactures use other methods of measuring filtering ability and are can be very deceptive from what the filter is in truth filtering.
I dont know how much of what he said was true.
Here is some interesting reading about filters:
http://www.lenntech.com/library/fine/absolute/absolute-nominal-filters.htm
~JH
-
Sometimes we hear what you want.
-
Mike, what micron rating do your paper filters have? My fuel paper filters give a 10 micron rating but I can't find a rating for the paper oil filters. What brand you prefer?
JH, thanx for starting this thread.
-
I have been gone hunting for the last couple of weeks and haven't been able to get on the Landracing site but I do have a couple of comments regarding filters and screens.
First a comment regarding the post by Rick about using a 280 micron screen in place of the Oberg because the Oberg plugged up to fast. Rick did you ever think that the reason the Oberg may have plugged up faster was because it was filtering out more junk? If the Oberg filter is a true 60 micron rating as JHN is saying then it is obviously doing a better job, if you are measuring filter efficiency by how fast it plugs up then just don't use a filter and it will never plug up. Another point regarding shop cleanliness and engine assembly, no matter how much you clean parts you will have contamination in the engine which you already say you have because you plug the Oberg filter when you run the engine. I have seen some of the best engine builders us Pall series 7500 filters with a 3 micron rating to clean the engine when they first run it on the dyno, they also filter their parts washer fluid with a 1 or 3 micron filter continuously to make sure that they are not cleaning the engine parts with dirty solvent.
Next the question from Interested Bystander regarding speed improvement going from a 10 micron to a 3 micron filter. There is not speed improvement you are only increasing the cleanliness of the oil which should increase the engine life. There is a filtration theory that says small particle will, if not removed from the oil, will generate other particles thru its abrasion against other parts and if you do not remove these particles they will generate more particles etc etc. So even if you start with an engine that was "perfectly clean" except for a single particle as the engine operates that single particle will generate other particles until the engine is contaminated enough to fail. Yes Rob your rod clearance is much greater than 3 microns but the rod does not run concentrically around the crank pin, on the loaded side the clearance may be only several oil molecules thick which is much less than 3 microns. Also what do you think the clearance is between the lifter and the cam? Probably much less than 3 microns.
Next a comment on filtering media. 1940 technology is the paper element. The difference between a 60 micron paper filter and a 10 micron paper filter is how much the manufacture compress the paper fibers together to get the holes between the paper fibers smaller. A typical paper fiber is around 15-20 microns in diameter the new "bonded fiber" technology (started around 1970 by the Pall Corp) is about 2 to 3 microns so if you get the passage between the fibers on a new fiber type filter down to the same size as an equivalent paper filter you will have a lot more passages than on the paper filter which makes lower pressure drop for the same cross section of filter element. Same goes for screen filters, a 10 micron screen filter will have 5 to 10 times the pressure drop per square inch of filter media compared to a fiber filter. Most of the "fiber technology" filters use a 2-3 micron glass fiber and they are processed with a bonding agent that glues the fibers together at each place that they cross each other, Pall is now using a special sintering process that bonds the fibers using heat which increases the filtration area by not having the bonding agent present.
JHN, most if what your Oberg guy told you was BS. The "absolute" method of filter rating went out 30 years ago, it is as old as the screen filter technology that the Oberg filter is using. Call him up and ask him what is his filters "Beta" rating is. This is the ONLY accepted filter rating method used in the hydraulics industry today. Also his 35 micron filter will not separate water from oil, the water molecule is much smaller than an oil molecule, just think about what each molecule is made up from, water has a single hydrogen atom and two oxygen atoms which is much smaller than the huge oil molecule made up of long chains of carbon and hydrogen atoms. One of the few things that a paper element will do well is remove water as the paper fiber adsorbs any "free" water, it will not remove any water molecules that are dissolved in the oil.
Hope all of this is of some help in getting around some of the information and mis information that is found in the filter "morass" you find today.
Rex
-
Opps! water is H20, two hydrogen atoms and only one oxygen atom.
Rex
-
I'm a hunt and peck typist, so I try to keep my posts short and simple.
First a comment regarding the post by Rex about the post by Rick. It's most likely all my fault cause I don't explain in enough detail. I love the fact that the Oberg filtered well. The part that smirfed me off, was that it had such small, small limited capacity. And then to clean it, you have to disassemble the thing. And I was never able to locate it in a user friendly spot. So oil was always running on to the headers and into the frame, only to slowly drain out over the next couple of days.
I found that the Moroso screen would catch the same junk that the Oberg would, except when I changed the spin-on filter, my oil spill was better contained.
Another point regarding shop cleanliness, I walked in to the "clean room" looking for my lost cell phone and there was a cigarette butt on the floor. Nobody there smokes,,, where did that thing come from?
Bottom line was,,I was just trying to help Jonny Hotnuts find a spin on filter. I feel that the A/C PF35L has done a great job for me, synthetic 10 micron with little/none pressure drop, its afordable, and easy to find.
And weather it's H2O or O2H, It still adds up to three atoms.
Hope the hunting trip was enjoyable.
RICK
-
Some thoughts about the Oberg filters Marlo might be using on his 'liner.
I do not use this type of filter to filter engine oil in my cars. That being said some reason they might be used on Marlo's car are:
Most fuel/nitro engines run 70 wt engine oil. Not sure but that might be part of the reason for a 60 micron filter.
Also note that many nitro engines run much larger bearing clearances than many other engines, mainly due to the thick engine oil.
It is also possible that they are running a "better" engine oil filter and using the Oberg as a "scavenge" filter to catch debris before it's returned to the oil tank. This is how many Nascar & other pro race teams do it.
-
I have an Oberg between my suction output and tank to check for bearing problems . Maybe Marlo's is similar .
-
Placing a filter between the scavenger pump sections and the dry sump tank is the most effective place to put a filter, and I would suggest that this filter should not be 60 micron but probably 10 micron. This filter placement prevents contamination from the engine reaching the dry sump tank where it can be drawn into the engine high pressure oil pump and cause wear and damage, so the better the filter the better the protection for the oil pump. If you have a good filter, low micron rating and very efficient, in this position you could probably delete the hp filter from the hp pump, although you probably still need this filter because new oil is pretty dirty.
Rex
-
Thanks, Rex.
A person who thinks a water molecule is .001" is certainly not an engineer, which suggests that Oberg is rather promiscuous with the term.
-
I found this comparison on line a few years ago, it started me thinking when the motors we were racing were limited to a stock filter assy. Take a look, if nothing else, you may stop using the orange filters on daily drivers.
http://people.msoe.edu/~yoderw/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html
John
-
John,
Thanks for posting the link to the filter comparison page. Many of the comments regarding the construction and quality of the filters was interesting. Several things should be noted, one is that almost all of the filters use paper as the element material, another is the description of the SAE J1858 test which is somewhat similar to the ISO testing for modern hydraulic system filters. Note that the filter efficiencies estimates provided are very low for every particle size up to 60 micron. When you have efficiencies this low the filters cannot reduce the amount of contaminate in a system as the particles that are missed are generating new contamination particles at a greater rate than the filter can remove. A good "Industrial" filter using glass media will be rated with an ISO "Beta" rating for different particle sizes, a filter that has a Beta 10 rating of 100 means that if 100 ten micron particles are flowed into the filter only one of them will not be contained in the filter. That filter is 99.975 % efficient, quite a bit better than the auto filters. Maybe this is to good for an automotive engine but if you have just spent $30,000 for your "bullet" maybe not.
Rex
-
Rex,
You are correct about the efficiency of the filters and the media used.
This paper was written in the '90's. I wonder how much has changed?
The other key fact that most people miss is the bypass system. I noticed it mainly on our spec racer, the filters will plug about 3-400 miles into a change cycle. This was found logging data and looking for efficiency with different types of lubricants. I have switched over to exclusivly using Wix spin on filters.
One other detail about spin ons, the Wix site has ratings on flow and element micron sizing per filter spec.
After doing oil analysis testing on industrial machines, the best protection for race bullets is to change oil frequently.
After running a few 25 hour endurance events and inspecting the motors afterwards, go with synthetic.
John