Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: maj on August 18, 2010, 01:02:17 AM
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Suppose someone has to ask :-D
Drew your opinions would be highly valued :cheers:
In light of the speedweek tire issues
Are the z rated tires we used last year still suitable for this year AMA and FIM ??
new regs
June 30th 2010
AMA has releases some rule changes regarding Tires and Aerodynamics:
For clarification, please make the following change to the current 2010 BUB Supplemental Regulations.
Replace rule 2Q, page 23, which states:
“The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
With the new rule:
“The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
As a result of the rapid evolution of technology and the increased speed that it brings, it is recommended that when choosing tires for the event, the rider choose a set that is rated for speeds higher than the class record. Due to the changing technology of tires it is also recommended that if the rider has any questions he/she should contact the tire manufacture to ensure that they are using a tire that meets the speed requirements needed. Riders may also contact BUB Racing at (530) 477-7490 with questions regarding tires and how to locate special tires.
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I'm curious too?
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...given the AMA position: " ..rider..should contact the tire manufacture to ensure that they are using a tire that meets the speed requirements needed"...
I NEVER received a response from AMA or FIM steward/scrutineer regarding what tires are acceptable
for speeds over 240...250...and over 265....(except lsr 300 mph tires)...after inquiring months ago...and
following up with communication with BUB/AMA officials...........
so if the AMA statement to be believed.....
anyone contact a motorcycle tire manufacturer and and have them say zr radials (or any motorcycle tire they manufacture) of dot or race spec "meet speed requirements" over 240..250..or 265....???????????
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It is recommended you use a ZR tire that has been professionally shaved and heat cycled. The AMA has not banned ZR rated street tires at this time.
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nrhs, "" ..rider..should contact the tire manufacture to ensure that they are using a tire that meets the speed requirements needed"...
is not the same as your statement....
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Joe,
Do you not get that that is the AMA and Bubs way of not being held responsible should something go wrong if you run a ZR tire? Of course they say contact the tire manufacturer and you and I both know the tire folks will say the same BS they told the SCTA, that you need race tires. And why do they do that? because by running a race tire it absolves them of certain liabilities should a tire blow because you obviously were using it for racing. Do you really want the AMA to say you must run race tires and have the same disaster happen that we just saw last week.
Why does it seem that you are being an instigator here for something that is not an issue? THe AMA has not mandated racing tires and you and I both know that a shaved and heat cycled ZR tire is the best tire to run.
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please explain disaster. mike
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Mike;
Read this: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,8467.45.html
That should tell you everything you need to know.
I applaud the AMA for taking a wait and see position. Looks like they made a good call.
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..nrhs...what we have here is a failure to communicate....
..the ASSumptions are so sickening...assumptions made by many....
assuming you understand my or anyones mindset is freakin ridiculous.....
....many months ago...in planning what venues to attend....i knew tire issues
were evolving....i looked for confirmation from ama/fim/bub folks....
SPECIFIC CONFIRMATION REGARDING WHAT TIRES WOULD BE ALLOWED, GET IT, SO
AS NOT TO SPEND MONEY ON A VENUE TO SHOW UP FOR POTENTIAL ILLEGALITY
FOR DESIRED SPEEDS.....
Drew (scrutineer) very kindly deferred to ama/fim.......
to this date NO DIRECT FREAKIN confirmation has been given to my requests....
some may want to beat around the bush, i wanted to know, wHATfreakin tire, would be
allowed for the speeds i wanted to run, ie per BUB representative in my emails " if course we would not allow a low rated tire for high speeds".....
i related "is a tire such as zr rated for 186 considered low rated for speeds over 265 mph"...
THAT KIND OF SPECIFICITY is what i was after and have not received...in making plans...do ya get it nrhs..?.....
do ya see how a statement regarding ensuring that contacting the tire manufacturer to make sure the tire meets the speed requirement"....leaves it clearly plainly to see, that only currently lsr tires are rated for the speeds desired....
i applaud AMA for putting on a meet....but not for answering freakin simple point blank questions
AT LEAST SCTA HAS THE FORTITUDE TO SAY WHAT THEY CONDONE AND ALLOW..
I APPLAUD THAT......
and for you nrhs to assume that you know more than tire engineers and scta/ama with regard to
tire usage and failures is crazy.....you have no freakin idea the data collected by ama and scta
reps regarding zr dot spec vs race spec.....yer sittin back thinking you have it figured out...have ya
been on the salt this year....what speeds do ya have to base your experience on....
thank you for your interpretation regarding tires, its likely as useful as your spouting off about tail sections earlier this year...
and no nrhs, i dont dislike ya....or bak..:)...
just grow tired of this bs regarding ama/bub being so praised in comparison to scta....and decision making..
IM freakin glad both do what they do to allow pursuit of dreams on salt....
disclaimer "ama folks have been very gracious in many other aspects of planning"
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Joe I think the AMA statement makes it pretty clear that it's up to you to determine what tire is or isn't suitable. They don't even tell you that must contact a tire company, the word they use is "should". They're just giving you advice, nothing more.
What's wrong with that? After all, it's your ass out there. What's wrong with you making the choice yourself?
To sit there and demand that they give you a better answer and throw rocks at them for not doing so, well, it says you don't want to take responsibility.
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Joe,
Sounds like you are being very neglected :-P And as V-twin said above it looks like you are not willing to take your own responsibilty for a tire choice? if so then maybe you need to get a slower bike. :-D
I'm sorry if you don't agree with how I interpret the rules and my discussions with Delvene. The AMA at this time is not going to tell you what tires to run. You as the racer need to make your own decisions on what you feel is a safe tire. I think that is a good thing as I do not like being dictated as to what I must do especially when it seems like decisions made have been poor ones. But that is my opinion and everybody has one.
At this time I do not choose to run SCTA sanctioned events for a miriad of reasons. Some are due to my own decisions and have nothing to do with their rules, others are directly due to them. Once again just my opinions. You are free to do whatever you wish.
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Hey Joe, does that mean we will not be seeing you at the BUB event?.........
PS. I am so glad you do not dislike me....that gives me a warm a fussy feeling.......
but I also note that since your outstanding 272mph run you certainly have been more outspoken and involved
in your opinions regarding everything LSR......I think that is great.....we need input from the "fast guys" in the sport.........So tell us what tires you plan to run in the future?.........
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....if ya dont see an issue with racers making their own assumptions of whats
safe....i cant help ya........
..someone will justify running a f'in bicycle tire at 250 mph....
..at some point that type of allowance effects the sport for all of us...
..in planning, i simply wanted to know if running over for example 250 or 265 mph
should i plan on only going down the road of lsr tires....or show up with zr's and
find out ama mirroring scta stance with new rule(s)...(especially with precedent of ama largely adopting
scta classifications with advent of bub meet) i did not want to assume
anything...simply wanted confirmation...to make decisions from....its a fair amount of money and
time involved in these decisions...
bak....im intrigued with many of the lsr tires....in existence today, and possibly to come as well as zr
radials of different ilks....
also i have been very quiet and soft spoken regarding most lsr issues, tires and sanctioning bodies
are very sensitive issues for me..:)
ps bak...i had hoped to give you a warm and fuzzy feeling, but not surprised that you adopted
a "fussy" feeling...:)
Joe
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It is recommended you use a ZR tire that has been professionally shaved and heat cycled.
and you base this information on what? Have you run tires in excess of 250 mph to give real world results, or is this just hearsay?
JonAmo
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....if ya dont see an issue with racers making their own assumptions of whats
safe....i cant help ya........
Well, I didn't ask for your help, but regardless, I think the notion that the organizing body will defer to the racer, who is likely much more knowledgeable on what works and what doesn't, is a refreshing one.
per BUB representative in my emails " if course we would not allow a low rated tire for high speeds".....
..someone will justify running a f'in bicycle tire at 250 mph....
Which is it, Joe?
Isn't it obvious that what they're saying is they'll apply a little common sense? What a novel concept. I've seen time after time when tech inspectors wouldn't. Personally I think the folks at Bub/AMA should be applauded for that.
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..i guess i dont possess the correct mental capacity for this banter...
....a simple confirmation of what is and isnt legal (given specific tire choices and speeds) before arriving is all
that was asked...
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Yeah, ok, yes, yeah, yeah, ok, yes, ok, i know, ok, yes, BYE MOM.
fricken idiots
for a respected sanctioning body to turn their back on safety is irresponsible behavior..... a blanket statement that the competitor "knows" what is good for them is an accident waiting to happen.... Telling a rookie with a turbo Hayabusa that cant even change his own tire is like giving them a loaded gun..... Requiring a equipment standard brings a higher level of safety and respect to a sanctioning body.... without that your just a bunch of ...... Vee twin glad to see your still a coward and hiding behind a screen name...... why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences.... oh and maybe you can enlighten us on how you have handled experiences in dealing with situations as a director of a sanctioned body in the past
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fricken idiots
Now there's an intelligent argument. My guess is that everyone who disagrees with you is a "fricken idiot" :)
for a respected sanctioning body to turn their back on safety is irresponsible behavior.....
There's a big difference between turning your back and applying a little common sense. Personally I don't want them dictating to me things that I know more about. Which tires work for me is something I know more about.
Can you imagine a sanctioning body dictating that everyone stop using the tires that they know work, and instead switch to unproven tires? A rule change like that could get someone hurt or killed. That's "irresponsible behavior", Kent.
Requiring a equipment standard brings a higher level of safety and respect to a sanctioning body....
You mean like the designated-for-racing SCTA rule? That brought a higher level of safety and respect? Seriously?
Personally I look at the way that whole thing was done, and the end result, and it comes across as a classic example of bad rules making. They made no effort to get any buy-in, they forced everyone running high speeds to be a guinea pig, and it appears they made things more dangerous. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure as hades didn't gain any respect for the people who did it. I'll stop short of calling them names, though. I know their intentions were good. But the road to Hades is lined and all that. I just hope their egos aren't so big that they refuse to make a change. Someone could get killed.
This whole thing really appears to be more of a SCTA vs. AMA thing. You and Joe are sitting there putting down AMA and trying to defend the change that SCTA made. Well, you can do that if you want, but to some us, the AMA approach makes a lot more sense.
Joe, you're a very accomplished and respected racer. Why in the world you think you're going to have trouble at the Bub meet convincing the tech folks that you know what you're doing with your tires, I don't know. That doesn't make sense. I think you're worrying about something that has zero chance of happening.
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why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....
You missed this part.
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Joe and Kent,
All I can say is wow! For you guys to be saying the things you are saying after all the blistered "racing" tires that occured at Speedweek is just beyond understanding. Both of you are some of the most respected motorcycle racers in LSR yet this is how you represent yourselves? I have nothing else to say.
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...nrhs....:
-were you there..?...NO...we were..
-you speak of "all those blistered tires"....
DO YOU F'IN KNOW WHO's AND HOW MANY AND
UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS, AT WHAT SPEEDS, PSI
AND TIRE SPIN...?...
seriously....the last count i was privy to was 8...out of ALL fast runs
being monitored and inspected...
im going to take a deep breath, chillax and proceed abit..
..this internet thing is very touchy..
it would likely be best if we all met in person....i dont want to lose your friendship
or most any other...
but until then, hopefully some positive can be garnered by trying to stick
to as many facts as possible and hopefully alleviate folks spouting off
about things they hear about and have no or not much first hand knowledge
about, creating some hysteria that is likely not facilitating anything positive...
8 tires from the largest lsr meet in history is likely very much less than the numbers
tallied unrecognized/policed in years past...
folks who blistered/chunked zr dot spec tires in past, blistered and chunked zr race spec tires...
folks who have not blistered or chunked zr dot spec tires in past did not blister or chunk zr race spec tires....
at least one entrant blistered/chunked 3 different tires in a row....3 out of the six, and was witnessed
to come up into wheel spin in 2nd gear and maintained wheel spin for miles....
am i dissing (sp?) them..?...not really, they as we all do evolve and this data/feedback will likely benefit
them and the rest of us....
do i think race spec superior to dot spec, i dont have enough data/knowledge base to say....
as said previously, no delaminations, no huge chunks missing as was more akin to many zr dot spec
failures, the race spec had very narrow band of blister/chunk in center .5 to 1 inch that didnt
extend into other tread transitions further out on tire as often happened with dot spec failures...
additionally, im personally not at all saying race spec preferred, just trying to provide more of a picture of results...to try to alleviate tangents and possible misinterpretations....
just looking at what is happening first hand, not from internet seat hundreds of miles away...
...i try to stay quiet...tires are sensitive issue to say the least....
..i look at the car parachute issues similarly....if someones chute doesnt deploy properly..scta tech
folks talk with them for their safety, if it repeatedly has issues in deployment that are dangerous, they
are asked to make changes and fix before returning.......they dont say.."the competitor knows more than
us about this, we defer to their knowledge and expertise..let them go...".....
..the ability to run on the salt at a sanctioned event is a priveledge...not a racers right...its the safety of the racer..spectators and the sport in general that is being facilitated....
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Joe,
That was a very well thought out answer. As I said before I am giving my opinion and my opinion is that the new tire rule was made before they had all the facts. In my opinion (again) that is a very dangerous precedent to set especially with something that can be as dangerous as tires are concerned on a bike. If the race tires and the ZR tires are built on the same exact carcass (accoriding to the dunlop rep right?) then how does that make the "racing tire any safer, especially if they use a softer rubber compound? Like I said you are very respected and I am looking for well thought out answers not just saying "it's a racing tire so it must be better" as that is what the new rule seems to be based on. Did anybody do head to head tests using the 2 different tires at high speeds on the same bike before this rule was implemented? Just trusting the tires companies opinions is nuts in my opinion. Think Formula 1 at Indy a few years ago!! Or Nascar at the same track. Sometimes real testing need to be done not just what the computer says will work. Would you not agree?
As you said lets stick to the facts. Was this rule made based on facts or was it based on tire companies and insurance companies trying to protect their own a$$es should somebody be hurt? I get so infuriated when I see knee jerk reactions to an isolated problem. I served 20 years in the Army and saw it happen way too many times!! You are the fastest sit on bike ever correct? Did you see any problems last year with your shaved and heat cycled ZR tires? Or were you running something else.
I also agree that it is a privledge to run at these events but if a bad rule is made is it not everybodies right to say something? Seems like that is what you are doing with the Bubs rules. How is that different than what I am doing?
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Vee twin why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....
Kent,
Great suggestion.
Tom G.
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Ok here is my take on what has happened. I made 7 runs at Speedweek, 4 runs over 200mph, 1 at 228, 1 crash at 210. my tire looks good enough to use again. I had to use a lot of right hand traction control, I believe the softer tire spun easier. On the zr dot tire that I have used for the last two years I was still learning and spun it a lot there is no sign of wear. If we were alllowed to go back to the street tires I would put it back on. I think the tire inspection is a very good idea. One competitor, with a turbo bike ruined his race tire on his first run. He was allowed to run a zr street tire as an experiment, he made many 200 plus runs and no further tire problems. I believe the harder street tires is what we should be allowed to run, and the inspections should continue. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. 8-)
Fred
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I think the tire inspection is a very good idea. One competitor, with a turbo bike ruined his race tire on his first run. He was allowed to run a zr street tire as an experiment, he made many 200 plus runs and no further tire problems. I believe the harder street tires is what we should be allowed to run, and the inspections should continue.
Fred
Give them some time to discus speedweek and listen for SCTA conclusion
Bill
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Bill,
I concur. This discussion really wasn't about speedweek but it seems to have turned into it.
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..i look at the car parachute issues similarly....if someones chute doesnt deploy properly..scta tech
folks talk with them for their safety, if it repeatedly has issues in deployment that are dangerous, they
are asked to make changes and fix before returning.......they dont say.."the competitor knows more than
us about this, we defer to their knowledge and expertise..let them go...".....
So you actually think SCTA knows better than you what does or doesn't work on your bike?
..the ability to run on the salt at a sanctioned event is a priveledge...not a racers right...its the safety of the racer..spectators and the sport in general that is being facilitated....
That's a straw man argument. Nobody is arguing that we shouldn't be safe. We're debating what's safest.
Do you believe SCTA's move made things safer?
Would you take one of these tires that chunked at 200 and go out and make a 272 pass on it? Or would you rather use the tire that you know worked for you once?
I'm sorry Joe but sometimes the racers do know better than the organizers what works and what doesn't. AMA has the courage to admit that.
But if you truly feel the need to have tire choice dictated to you, and you're gonna get all bent out of shape because AMA won't do it for you, then by all means, stay home and don't attend their meet. Get on the internet and bitch and whine and moan about them and be sure to insult anyone who doesn't agree with you.
Some of us however appreciate that they're going to let us use what we know works.
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Vee twin why don't you come out of the closet and disclose who you are and inform us all about you vast lsr and tire testing experiences....
Kent,
Great suggestion.
Tom G.
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Joe thank you for your post, it is good to hear from a racer at the event that sees the big picture.
I was not at Bonneville however have spoken with racers and officials that were there regarding the tire situation that ensued.
I know that in the past years at Bonneville I have seen many racers blister tires from over spinning them on the salt building up heat and then the blistering starts, these racers have been known to simply return to the pits and install another rim/tire and then proceed to make further runs and motorcycle techs/officials never got a chance to see the damaged tires.
With the new policies the SCTA motorcycle officials have put in place the racers cannot make a pass, kill the tire and return to the pits without the SCTA motorcycle officials knowing about the situation.
This year I know of 6-8 tires that as Joe mentioned lost rubber in the center of the tire.
2-3 from one P-P bike, 2 from a turbo bike, one from a 1000 GSXR with a road race used throw-away tire (should have never been brought to the salt), heard a turbo 1000 started to blister one however kept the tread on...
Unless a racer over-spun his/her tire and then left the SCTA officials and motorcycle tire specialist were able to see all of the racers and take data from them regarding, HP, fuel management/traction control, type of tire/slick/compound etc.
The information is more than has ever been collected at an SCTA event and will go along way to making it safer for the racers, I have seen tires loose all of the rubber from over-spinning and yet still maintain air pressure however it seems that these race only tires are only losing the center section where the heat is being applied and none of the racers were even aware of the blistering until after the runs were over.
I am spending along time writing this in between company emails and see that Joe has already mentioned some things I either was going to or did mention, one thing that should be noted, the bike that lost the most tires was not a Turbo or Nitrous bike, it never hit 200mph or above yet due to lack of proper throttle control/modulation or traction control the rider as Joe mentioned spun the tire for miles and even after blistering the slick and race tires was able to keep the bike upright as no air loss occurred.
I was not aware that a racer was able to install a non conforming tire after hurting a race tire, thank you for that information, it would be interesting to see the tires in person and compare them to what I have seen in the past...oh wait I am sure they are in the SCTA trailer and can be seen at El Mirage.. :cheers:
It was great feedback from Fred, Jamie, Racergeo ...lets continue to learn from this and make it safer as we go.
I don't feel that Bubs is going to allow riders to run 200+ on ZR tires however I would get that in writing before I trailered out there and found that I needed correct tires.
Has anyone got it in writing they are reversing the tire rules? I have not heard that however my sources are just Tom and Van, I am sure there are more people on the internet that have better information/experience regarding this issue.
Be safe everyone...even you VeeTwin :cheers:
John
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John,
Bubs has never changed the tire rule so how could they reverse it? They have only provided new guideance this year but in reality nothing in the tire rules has changed?
I agree with what you are saying about the SCTA checking tires after the runs. My question is why didn't they do this last year to see if the old rules were working or not? Seems like before you make a huge rule change you would want to gather lots of data to support your decisison would you not?
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john, thank you its nice to hear you again...someone
who speaks with realworld experience...that he can talk
about...refreshing...
nrhs...your a good guy looking for the best...
for some others...talk is cheap...some do more with actions and experience...
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John,
Bubs has never changed the tire rule so how could they reverse it? They have only provided new guideance this year but in reality nothing in the tire rules has changed?
I agree with what you are saying about the SCTA checking tires after the runs. My question is why didn't they do this last year to see if the old rules were working or not? Seems like before you make a huge rule change you would want to gather lots of data to support your decisison would you not?
Dan,
Have you or anyone spoke with an official from Bub's regarding what tires would be legal to run..I would now be surprised (not shocked) if they they let a 225+ mph Turbo bike run on 186 rated tires even if it has been done before..we will see and good luck to all.
I thought I read that Bill Warner went 270+ on a racing tire, he must be real lucky or knows how to control wheelspin somehow. :cheers:
J
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John,
I spoke with Delvene and they are not forcing anybody to get racing tires this year. Jeez guys read the AMA rules would ya. They are making suggestions but it is really up to the rider to pick the tire they feel is safe.
The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
With the new rule:
“The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
As a result of the rapid evolution of technology and the increased speed that it brings, it is recommended that when choosing tires for the event, the rider choose a set that is rated for speeds higher than the class record
Seems pretty clear to me. What about that rule doesn't make sense to you John? Nowhere in that rule does it say you cannot run ZR tires.
If they have a problem they definately could change the rules next year but as of today you can still run ZR tires on 200mph + bikes this year.
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I talked to Bill at SW. I think the first 270+ runs were on a street tire, and the 273+ was on a Conti race tire. Bill knows a little about right hand traction control. :wink:
Fred
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John,
I spoke with Delvene and they are not forcing anybody to get racing tires this year. Jeez guys read the AMA rules would ya. They are making suggestions but it is really up to the rider to pick the tire they feel is safe.
The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
With the new rule:
“The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
As a result of the rapid evolution of technology and the increased speed that it brings, it is recommended that when choosing tires for the event, the rider choose a set that is rated for speeds higher than the class record
Seems pretty clear to me. What about that rule doesn't make sense to you John? Nowhere in that rule does it say you cannot run ZR tires.
If they have a problem they definately could change the rules next year but as of today you can still run ZR tires on 200mph + bikes this year.
Stop changing your posts ! ! :wink:
I see the new rules and see where it says "The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run"
If Devene told you different then I guess you will be fine and have a "Blast" :cheers:
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I am confused John. What is different about what Delvene said and that rule? They both say the same thing do they not? It is up to the rider to pick the proper tires not the AMA or FIM. Nobody is telling you you must get race tires. Tell me what I am not seeing here?
What is the speed rating of a zr or a w tire? Does that change if it has been changed and heat cycled? Does a race tire have a speed rating of 250+ mph? Not to my knowledge so how is a race tire any safer? But if you say yes they do can you show me where as i would sure like to see it in writing.
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Vee Twin or whomever you are... this is not about SCTA or AMA its about tires, safety, and the potential exclusion of motorcycles in the sport we love.....
Dan (nhrs) you weren't there..... you don't know what happened... how many tires, how many passes, what speeds, what pressures, what and how many failures...... if you were so concerned about tires then maybe you should have been there to do your own research to made a logical conclusion and then present your findings to the SCTA board to substantiate your subtitle for a rule change back to what it was..... oh wait, never mind, you still don't understand....
Speed week was a success, our new tire rule was a success, get over it!
as for the AMA rule... as I read and interpret it you wont be able to run a ZR tire 200mph!.... So i gotta be facetious and ask.... Hey Dan, under the AMA rule as written, what tire is rated and appropriate to run at 220mph?
Kent
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Kent,
I will post the question back at you. Can you show me where any tire manufacturer states in writing that their "race" tires have a speed rating of 220+ mph. If you can do that then I will agree with everything you are saying. All I have been asking for is the facts. Show me in writing where the race tires say they can go 220+ mph.
And once again this is not about speedweeks tire rules it is about Bubs. Is it not?
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Dan
its pretty obvious what your not seeing... the AMA rule clearly states (as you have cut and pasted) "tires are rated for appropriate speed".... so i gotta as you AGAIN... what tire is rated by the manufacture for 200mph?
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I am confused John.
Gotta agree with that first statement.. :cheers:
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Kent,
What part of the word "recommended" do you not understand? Where in that rule does it say you MUST have a tire rated for those speeds? Big difference between recommended and must in my mind. Not sure about yours?
As for tire ratings. can you show me any tire that is rated for 200 mph + if so where can I find that in writing? That seems like a simple enough request. if you say race tires are rated for 200 mph + that should be easy to prove should it not? Prove it.
Otherwise by your argument we just need to outlaw all motorcycles at these events that can go over 200 mph because the tires are not safe. Right?
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Still waiting for anybody to show me where the tire manufacturers have rated race tires to go over 200 mph in writing. I am hearing the crickets chirping!!! :-D
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This is probably slightly off-topic to the discussion you gentlemen are having, but:
I don't know how they will handle the tire question when I show up at BUB
but at Speed Week this was put on the bike
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/tire.jpg)
...as my front tire is rated to 110 mph.
OK, you may continue.
.-)
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I have never seen a sticker like that placed on any bike at Bubs in the last 4 years if that helps answer your question.
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Dan
oh! i know what the word "recommended" means.... it seems that your reading interpretation skills are pretty bad... just because they tossed the word "recommended" into the rule statement doesn't mean you can do whatever you want... the AMA rule goes on to state "rated for speeds"! And i suggest you follow that requirement (assuming you are actually gonna race something instead of just shoot yer mouth off)
Only because you asked in previous posts (i am to assume your google skilz are as poor as your reading comprehension) a "W" rating on a tire is good for 168 mph and a "ZR" rating is commonly accepted over 150mph and up to 200mph..... now, as for your requested rating on a "race" branded tire... There is NO rating.... that's why the SCTA will allow its restricted and monitored use up to 250mph
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So Kent, do you believe the SCTA rule change made the tire situation safer or more dangerous?
Joe won't answer the question, will you?
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Oh Kent,
That is the worst rebuttal I have ever seen! So you are saying because race tires do not have a speed rating that somehow makes them safer than tires that do have ratings? Wow, that is a stretch for sure!!! I expected better of you than that.
So if I come to a race with a tire that has no rating it is automatically safe for 250 mph?? Is that what you are trying to say cause thats what I am hearing.
I asked you for some kind of proof that race tires are safer than ZR tires and all you can come up with is they do not have a rating so they are safer? Wow!!!
And I already knew what the different ratings meant but was trying to make you prove to me that a race tire is actually rated for higher speeds than the ZR tires were. You failed in that obviously as you cannnot show me anywhere in writing where a manufacturer says a race tire can go in excess of 200 mph can you? If you can do that I will bow down to your superiority. Otherwise it is you who is just spouting off about how race tires are safer than street tires are you not?
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John Noonan, AHG, nrhs sales, k.h., MadDuck, WildBro, 1212FBGS and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. :cheers:
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Does Drew want to contribute or is he saying "I am staying out of this hornets nest!"
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Don't leave me out -- although I am truly getting tired.
Stan
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Don't leave me out -- although I am truly getting tired.
Stan
It is because you are old.
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I talked to Bill at SW. I think the first 270+ runs were on a street tire, and the 273+ was on a Conti race tire. Bill knows a little about right hand traction control. :wink:
Fred
Ran the Pirelli Diablo 240 last year and the first few races this year.
Now run Conti Race Attack 240, is Race DOT tire.
Both tires are good and feel comfortable running either into the 280s(especially the conti :wink: )
We all have wheel spin. excess for a prolonged time on a soft tire and they go bad.
SW we ran tires with hardness of 45,55,65. We spun the crap out of shaved 003 which was a 65 and a race DOT. Couldn't hurt that tire at all. The softer Race Race tires did not do go good even with a lot less spin.
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John, Kent and Joe. For the 3 of you to be speculating that folks with 200 mph bikes will not be allowed to run if they have ZR tires is helping nobody. Until the AMA or FIM says that, what are you hoping to accomplish except to try to make Bubs look bad? As of today there has been no rule stating you cannot run ZR tires on a 200 mph + bike at Bubs. For the three of you to act like there is just seems like you have hidden agendas or something.
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Don't leave me out -- although I am truly getting tired.
Stan
Car guys don't count. Especially Roadster Toads. :evil: :cheers:
Tom G.
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John, Kent and Joe. For the 3 of you to be speculating that folks with 200 mph bikes will not be allowed to run if they have ZR tires is helping nobody. Until the AMA or FIM says that what are you hoping to accomplish except to try to make Bubs look bad? As of today there has been no rule stating you cannot run ZR tires on a 200 mph + bike at Bubs. For the three of you to act like there is just seems like you have hidden agendas or something.
Had to copy this before you changed it: :wink:
I have no agenda and have gone very fast at Bubs and have also made a few dollars as well. It is a great deal for the bikers to go out there and not have to wait for cars to run. :cheers:
I would love it if more of the bikes went to Bubs and I would have more runs at El Mirage..I just want to make sure that before somebody long-hauls a bike out there that they are going to be able to realise their dream and not be told to slow it down. :cheers:
From the way that a few of us read the wording it seems like AMA will require the racer to have appropriatte tires for the speeds they will be running in their class, if it were me I would bring other tires to make sure I would conform if the rules are not clearly written out. :cheers: Funny thing is that you call out Joe, Kent and myself (three faster racers) and yet it seems like you have a lot more experiance than people that race and tire reps/engineers as well.
No worries it's all fine and I am sure AMA racers will be allowed to run the faster speeds on ZR street tires if Del approved it. Good luck with your goal of 120 mph.. :cheers:
John
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Wow John was that sarcasm??
I am just not understanding why it seems a few of you are trying to say their tires will not be allowed without any proof that, that is going to happen. Why would you do that?
Might as well say that anybody who has a turbo might not be allowed to run as they might determine the bikes are too fast. tell me how that is any different than what you guys are saying?
And what tires should they bring? Nobody can show me anywhere where a tire manufacturer says a non rated race tire can go in speeds in excess of 200 mph. That is all I am asking for. if you say a race tire is rated for over 200 mph, show me where to find that information. If you want to read the AMA rules they way you say you would need to have that proof would you not? By your interpretation of the rules there are NO tires than can be run in excessof 200 mph. Period. So why not just tell folks if there bike can go over 200 mph unless they have a manufacturuers certificate stating their tires are rated for over 200 mph they are no longer welcome to attend LSR events.
Please tell me where i am wrong and somebody please show me proof that a "race" tire is rated for up to 250 mph. Here comes those crickets again.
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vtwin dude, or dudette, im at f'in work...i check
in when i can....
wow, need to be able to sit down and put some decent time
into some posts...these shotgun responses are somewhat limited in conveying
my intended meaning...
nrhs/vetwin...im not speculating what the ama will and wont do with respect
to tires at bub......!!!!!
im not against ama as indicated in my praise of much of what they do...!!!!
listen...i was quiet...then simply grew tired of of what i felt was cheap shots
at scta...
ie praising the ama for "taking a wait and see approach" per nrhs....
when i had spent months in communicating with AMA on if i show up
with x tire will it be allowed for x speeds....thats all....in planning for me,
that was desired info, before completing 3000$ in wheels and tires that do
meet the requirement ie lsr 300 mph tires, and appropriate other fees up front, i simply wanted to know what was specifically legal, ie do i spend the money to do lsr tires, can i run like last year, and with scta changes coming down the pipe, i didnt want to assume anything, you should be able to understand that...
some might want to beat around the bush, i dont....
whereas the scta simply took a pro-active approach and initiated a standing
months before the event....with the interest in our safety in mind....(as does ama)..
whether its agreed with or not, its the sanctioning bodies perogative to lay out
the conditions they are comfortable with...and us as racers to follow what we are
comfortable with..within those standards...
seriously nrhs, some of the best folks in lsr are apart of BUB, some of the best people i
know, Rex Svoboda (sp?), Tom Burkland, Denis Manning etc all i consider good friends..i wouldnt for once want to encourage any ill thoughts toward them...
to answer nrhs, yes lsr goodyear tires such as the 2282 and 2284 have 300 mph ratings per manufacturer...
vetwin..i would choose zr dot or race spec, next runs opting for race spec zr radials as well as
continuing learning about the lsr 300 mph tires i ran at sw...trying to make wos and or wf..would REALLY like to meet you and discuss these issues, in a practical real world manner, actually at the venue of use
with the tires we speak of....
Joe :)
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Joe,
Thats a great answer but Goodyear LSR tires are not made for stock 17" rims are they? Not real practical for a lot of folks. And that does not cover all the rest of the "racing" tires now does it. Lets keep it an honest discussion, not just pick and choose to prove your case.
It just seems like you were saying "the sky is falling" with nothing to back it up. Yes I praised the AMA for taking a wait and see approach. I think that was a good decision, others may disagree. Does that mean I was trying to pit Bubs agains SCTA? I never said that did I? I just like to see decisisons made based on facts not speculation. I thought the AMAs seat rule published around June was ridiculous and I publically said so. As you might have seen that rule was changed recently.
As I said before it infuriates me when I see knee jerk reactiosn without any real facts to back up a rule change. I don't care what organization does it. I guess that is the Army NCO in me. I had to deal with too many "smart" officers making rule changes just to justify their job throuhout my 20 years.
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Dan..... listen closely cuz i know your reading comprehension skilz are poor...... the AMA rule says you have to run a rated tire.... the "ZR" IS rated to 200mph..... and that's it.... period!
no hidden agendas here, you are the only one who is screaming "man on the grassy knoll".... the SCTA also allows ZR's use up to 200mph... And 200 is it!.... The AMA's rule does not say you CAN use a tire out of its recommended speed rating (i dont think they will allow it).... The difference is the SCTA does specifically say you "can not"
So dipship Dan... if you actually show up with a bike that can run over 200 at a AMA event, the AMA rule says "rated for speed".... what tire ya gonna use?
see aren't ya glad there's a "race" branded tire out their that's been accepted by a LSR sanctioned body that has already been run 200+mph.... otherwise you'd be on the trailer..... your fricken welcome!
Kent
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Kent
Really? So you are saying that beacuse the SCTA says a certain tire is okay for thier events then the AMA will automatically also allows those tires? Are you sure about that?
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Im gonna take your lead and act down rite ignorant here today because i dont know how to use the quote function.....
but maybe you can have your momma reread your previous post
“The rider has the sole responsibility of ensuring tires are rated for the appropriate speed and for inspecting the condition of tires before and after each run.”
Dan i gotta admitt your "tire"ing me out today with your bullheadedness
kent
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vetwin..i would choose zr dot or race spec
OK, so you'd be fine with changing tires from whatever you used on that 272 pass, to whatever the sanctioning body told you was now required, and you'd go crank off another 272 pass and not worry about it, right?
I have to admit, that surprises me a bit. I mean, you're doing something that's inherently ungodly dangerous, and you have a tire that you know performed fine, and you'd switch to an unknown tire and do it again. You have bigger cajones than me. 'Course all you guys running over 200 do. But if I ever get to that level I'm going to be real careful about something so closely tied to my safety like tires. You can die going those speeds. Easily.
I agree that you have the right to know ahead of time if your tires aren't going to be accepted. I just look at the wording and wonder how in the world you could have any doubts. But if you do have doubts you most certainly should be able to email or call someone, tell them what you're planning to run and the speeds you're trying to go, and get a confirmation that they'll allow it, before you lay down your entry fee and travel halfway across the country. If the organizers wouldn't do that for you, you have a legitimate gripe.
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DAN!!!!!
IM GONNA CHOKE YOU!!!!!!
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IM GONNA CHOKE YOU!!!!!!
First insults, now threats. The mods sure let you get away with a lot.
Regardless, if I were you I'd be very careful before I threatened Dan. My guess is you'd get the worst end of that deal.
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And Kent,
We plan to use a shaved, heat cycled, ZR Michelin on our bike and we do hope to go over 200 mph. It is the same type of tire that we went 218 mph on in 2006 at Bubs and it was just fine.
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.
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Kent,
I am just a stupid guy asking for facts. I have yet to see anybody show me where I can see in writing that race tires are certified to 250 mph. the only thing I have seen is you saying that the SCTA has done it for the tire makers. Am i wrong in what I am reading? Did you not just say that the SCTA has done the job for me and certified race tires to be rated up to 250 mph?
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DAN!!!!!
IM GONNA CHOKE YOU!!!!!!
Had to save this before he modifies his post.. :cheers:
Oh wait it's Dan that does that. :wink:
Dan,
We are not saying that the ZR street tires will not be accepted at the AMA/Bubs event, we are saying
we read it differantly than you do however and want to make sure the racers are prepared.
That's all..
John
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Kent
I know i am pretty dumb
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Kent,
I am just a stupid guy
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Anyone heard from Super Kaz lately?
John
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And John all I am asking is that you show me in writing where any tire is rated by the manufacturer to go over 200 mph. Kent has admitted that there isn't a motorcycle tire that is rated for that. If we follow the rules the way you read them then nobody will be allowed to run over 200 mph unless they have the Goodyear LSR 300 mph tires right?
Thats what the rules say do they not. They must be rated. Just saying they are a race tires does not mean thyey are rated for over 200 mph.
I have no idea what post I am supposed to edit nor why? If it is about the SCTA being sued because of a tire failure pease read what i posted carefully. It is a question not a statment of fact.
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Dan,
Thank you for your service (Army) :cheers:
"Diiiismiiiiiiiiiised"
J
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John,
I can never be totally dismissed as I am honorably retired and allowed to wear the uniform to my grave if I so chose!!
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I see you hiding... :cheers:
What is everyones favorite movie of all time..Dan you go first.. :wink:
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.
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Michelins are to soft side wall and will allow too much carcass growth.... the carcass growth will pooch the contact up and out as well as pull on the bead.... go to yer local cycle gear and grab the sidewall of a Michelin and then grab the side of a Dunlop and Bridgestone... you'll see the obvious difference.... Shaving is never an issue but heat cycling is no good...... just get a hard compound tire to start with... put 36psi in it and ride the bike for about 50 miles to settle the carcass... then send the tire to Nate for shave, profile and balance.... keep the gearing pretty close to accurate and don't overgear so ya keep the loose tire spin speed down helping to recover traction...... that prepping should be good for 220...
Vee Twin
i didn't expect ant intelligent comment from you..... you have proven to be one of those loud mouths that start a bar fight and never back up your mouth
Kent
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KH,
I was trying to clarify what Kent posted. If you read his post one above mine does he not state the SCTA has sanctioned these "race" tires to be safe up to 250 mph? I did not say that he did. I was asking for clarification as that is how i interpreted what he said. Please read exactly what I posted and tell me where I am wrong?
It seems to me like the post stating these race tires are sanctioned by the SCTA for runs up to 250 mph is the post that needs to be removed as that is the one showing liabilty IMO.
I was trying to point out how his statement could be used against folks if something bad were to happen.
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.
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And nobody still has been able to show definitively in writing where "race" tires are rated to go over 200 mph. After all that is what the AMA rules says is required right?
KH,
I have no argument with what you just said but how does that apply to Bubs. This is the Bubs tire discussion not the SCTA. Kent has said that because the SCTA sanctioned these tires than they are also approved for Bubs. Has anybody shown that to be a true statement?
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And nobody still has been able to show definitively in writing where "race" tires are rated to go over 200 mph. After all that is what the AMA rules says is required right?
I will pay for your phone call to the AMA to get your answer. Wouldn't that be the solution to your question?
Tom G.
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Joe has already asked that question to the AMA and did not get an answer. I have expressed my opinion on the matter only to be told by several folks that I am wrong. When I turn their statements back onto them and ask them to back it up they cannot do so. I feel I have been very civil thoroughout this whole discussion. Others have not shown to be as polite now have they?
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Dan.....you are confused.... the SCTA IS a sanctioning body that holds events.... they do NOT sanction anything, nor do they endorse, test, or recommend a specific product.... they specify rules and acceptable equipment... that's it
you guys fricken wore me out..... and my day started out so well, "dear lord please dont make me smack an idiot today".... and then i turned on my computer.... g-nite i'm going home
Kent
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Wow Kent,
That is exactly the point I was trying to make!! You are 100% correct. The SCTA does not endorse tires but you said because they allowed certain tires to be run at their events then Bubs would too. What facts did you have to back that up? Absolutely none yet you still made that statement.
Am I wrong?
The SCTA allows a whole lota streamlining in the APS classes too. That doesn't mean you are allowed to run it at Bubs now does it?
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nrhs, please, come on you asked a legitimate question on what
tires are rated over 250 mph, and very plain and simply i mentioned
the goodyear lsr tires...yes most of them only fit 15 inch rims...
the fact that it is not convenient as you wrote for most folks, doesnt
mitigate the facts...its not about convenience...thats why i started trialing
these lsr tires..
look...scta and ama are doing the best they know how, no one is certifying
motorcycle tires above 200...in scta case they do have a tire program that
allows runs to be made with mandatory inspections and evaluations and allowances
to facilitate safety in the best manner they know how, ALL subject to EVOLVE as
needed....
veetwin, yes i feel comfortable with race spec zr based on the feedback and knowledge
ive garnered from my own running of various tires, and discussions with sanctioning body folks,
and motorcycle manufacturers and some of their test riders over the past 19 yrs ive run
at bonneville.....
one of the biggest differences here is that scta tells you what they will allow so you know what
to expect..and how to proceed....the ama would not commit what would and wouldnt be allowed other than 300 mph rated
lsr tires...
no worries, just not wanting to hear how sitting back and waiting is an answer one meet came before the other, decisions
needed to be made...
the efforts put into these decisions by scta deserve to be defended when ignorant hysteria regarding their efforts
is exploited, especially by folks who admit they arent involved personally in the realm of the speeds concerned...
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Joe,
if that is how I came across it was never my intentions to put one organanizations rules against another. All I said was I liked the way that the AMA decided to do it this year. It was my opinion and nothing more than that. I also said I thought the intitial AMA seat rule was ridiculous. Also my opinion.
And I agreed with you on the Goodyear tires. They are the only tires I know of that are certified to be run over 200 mph. Other folks were making statements that race tires beacuse they had no ratings were certified up to 250 mph. A statment I found to also be ridiulous unless they had facts to to back it up.
Now big group hug everybody.......................except Noonan!! :evil:
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6 pages later... What's the question? :evil:
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Amen Stubbs... :cheers:
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I think the question was are Suzukis or Kawasakis faster? :-o
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I think the question was are Suzukis or Kawasakis faster? :-o
I think currently the (today) answer is Suzuki.... but hey it might change tomorrow :wink:
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OK, here is my 2 cents worth......it is called EDUCATION,..... 75% of the tire problems can be solved by rider EDUCATION.....the throttle works both ways.....sit the riders down that have bikes capable of 200mph plus .........and explain to them how wheel-spin can be controlled......have the "fast
people" be the instructors..............But Hey, what do I know.....I need a 3rd wheel to keep from falling over ..........
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You are a wise man Bak.
No matter what Kent or Noonan say about you!!! :evil:
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Thank you......As Elvis would say "thank you very much"
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Wow if you could gather all the energy that has been put into this thread and use it to make a bike faster.
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As a rider of a few fast SCTA bikes I can agree many points with many of the posters here on this subject, like has been mentioned many times, the nut behind the gas tank is what is failing, not the tires..
Thanks Bob Bakker for noting that....some folks have a problem learning that..must be the big words?
And now a group hug for all, even Dan the slowest poster on this subject... :wink:
John
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I'm just gonna have to build a bike that only goes 199 MPH...... :-D
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at least one entrant blistered/chunked 3 different tires in a row....3 out of the six, and was witnessed
to come up into wheel spin in 2nd gear and maintained wheel spin for miles....
am i dissing (sp?) them..?...not really, they as we all do evolve and this data/feedback will likely benefit
them and the rest of us....
As a rider of a few fast SCTA bikes I can agree many points with many of the posters here on this subject, like has been mentioned many times, the nut behind the gas tank is what is failing, not the tires..
Thanks Bob Bakker for noting that....some folks have a problem learning that..must be the big words?
And now a group hug for all, even Dan the slowest poster on this subject... :wink:
John
John,
I think Joe said it in a kind way, way back in the beginning of this topic.
Tom G.
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Tom,
If you know me I don't pull punches..I push the facts, when I am wrong I admit it however as a rider of the Worlds fastest record setting dirtbike, fastest ever unfaired dirtbike, fastest ever faired, fastest ever AMA unfaired open bike record, FIM PS Worlds fastest two way average (Jason is now 2-3 mph faster with SCTA) at one time the fastest faired and unfaired racer Worldwide and track MC record holder at El Mo, Bonneville and Australia (same time) of course I take it a bit personal when someone comes forth with nothing to add other than conjecture and a veiled attempt to diswade the factsand attempt to change history for which he has no part of from his own Bull shat experiences..
If you don't like the truth I am sorry however we are in a very litigious state and must do what we feel is right if we want to continue to race on the historic salt flats of Bonneville and the dirt of El Mirage..
Noonan
PS. if you do not lie like me or what I am saying/writing then please place me on ignore..IDGAFFYFAH"s
John
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Wow, that was a painful read. :-o
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Noonan,
You really need to stop being so humble. :evil:
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And modest... :cheers:
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...ahhhh...i was thinking many pages ago...
..where is John N. when ya need him....
sooo glad your back...i can try to go back being the quieter guy...
John N. is so much better "equipped" to be the outspoken one...that used to
bother me abit....but like many things in life have learned to appreciate more and
see a silver lining...!!!
some responses give a warm and "fuzzy"..others a "fussy" and thanks to john
some walk away with a "sting" from a whip cracking.....whatever it takes
what elicited so much angst from some...is wanting to ensure the banter about
scta decision making with regard to tires being called a "knee jerk reaction" when
the energy and passion invested in it is beyond reproach....
and everything Noonan said in his last post...!!
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Tom,
If you know me I don't pull punches..I push the facts, when I am wrong I admit it however as a rider of the Worlds fastest record setting dirtbike, fastest ever unfaired dirtbike, fastest ever faired, fastest ever AMA unfaired open bike record, FIM PS Worlds fastest two way average (Jason is now 2-3 mph faster with SCTA) at one time the fastest faired and unfaired racer Worldwide and track MC record holder at El Mo, Bonneville and Australia (same time) of course I take it a bit personal when someone comes forth with nothing to add other than conjecture and a veiled attempt to diswade the factsand attempt to change history for which he has no part of from his own Bull shat experiences..
If you don't like the truth I am sorry however we are in a very litigious state and must do what we feel is right if we want to continue to race on the historic salt flats of Bonneville and the dirt of El Mirage..
Noonan
PS. if you do not lie like me or what I am saying/writing then please place me on ignore..IDGAFFYFAH"s
John
:? :? :? :?
John, obviously you did not understand my post, all I was saying is that Joe had already stated that tire spin can contribute to the problem, and he said it in a non condescending way to the rider of the bike. I also pointed out that Joe said this early in the thread. The only reason I posted this was you were giving credit to Baker and I though it should go to Joe.
With that said where does this part of your post come from?
" I take it a bit personal when someone comes forth with nothing to add other than conjecture and a veiled attempt to diswade the factsand attempt to change history for which he has no part of from his own Bull shat experiences.. "
Please explain to me where I am trying to change history from my post?
John, I am a very outspoken person also. I tell it like it is. Some people agree, some don't. If you don't like what I say that is your privilege. If you don't understand what I am saying in one of my posts just ask, before you go on a tirade, especially when you say thing that are just not true.
Tom G.
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Tom,
The comment you are referring to was not directed at you.. :wink:
If you thought it was than I am sorry to have offended you when I did not mean too..I meant to offend others.. :-D
There are people that have posted that have never run these speeds that try to argue every point when given examples, data, facts etc..you are not one of them.
John
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Dang..still only two folks ignoring me.. :| and one is only a one day wonder never to be seen or heard again.. :roll:
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Try harder!! :-D
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It's tough being a populist ogre John! :-D :-D :-D
Pete
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:-D :-D
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Tom,
The comment you are referring to was not directed at you.. :wink:
If you thought it was than I am sorry to have offended you when I did not mean too..I meant to offend others.. :-D
There are people that have posted that have never run these speeds that try to argue every point when given examples, data, facts etc..you are not one of them.
John
John,
Thanks for the reply and clarification. Since my name was above the paragraph you can understand how I read it as I did. No hard feelings from me, all is good. :-) I know this is a very sensitive issue and wish for a fast solution for everyone involved.
Tom G.
PS. I never put you on ignore. :-D
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Noonan,
You are such a drama Queen! :-P
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There seems to be a lot of tire failure from tire spin and heat, has anyone having that problem tried higher gearing,lower spring rates or different instant centers?
JL222 :cheers:
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While I am no expert. I would think a lot of the tire spin actually happens when the boost kicks in on the turbo bikes or when you hit the nitrous button on fuel bikes. We saw it happen with the nitrous but have never used a turbo so lets hear what the turbo experts such as Noonan and Joe A have to say???
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ironically, our measured mph matches our gearing and rpm....and plenty of folks
with normally aspirated engines even in production have had difficulties with
blistering and chunking...
thats why i have no reservations running race spec zr radials with softer compounds...
jl22....oh yes whatever you can imagine has and is being tried on bikes....!!!
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Our experience this past week with tire spin on a naked NA < 200mph bike I feel was a direct result of headwind, damp salt after the shower and a soft/chewed up track on the last day. All of the above experienced individually & sometimes together. 1/2 - 2/3 of our runs had no "noticable" tire spin the rest of the runs the tire spin was obvious to both the riders & observers.
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Damp salt for sure is the one thing that caused our bikes to spin really badly no matter what else was involved!!! I still remember Noonan in 2007 or maybe 2008 at Bubs fishtailing like a kid on snow in the parking lot. Almost put it into the markers yet he stayed in the throttle the whole way. That was some wet salt and was really dangerous.
John,
Care to tell us how that run felt??? You earned my respect that day dude!!! You definately have some big cajones!!!!
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Looking at this from a business viewpoint, and not as a racer, the issue looks somewhat different. We have a known safety problem. The waivers, insurance, and articles of incorporation give us some protection. These things are like helmet, gloves and leathers, in this respect. They protect us but we still can get hurt.
We can feel the pain in different ways. One is the cost of a lawsuit. We know about this problem. Are we using "due diligence" to solve it? Is lack of sufficient action on out part negligence? This could be decided in the courts and it would be very expensive regardless of who prevailed. There is no guarantee of which party would eventually win, either. Our insurance carriers could take a skeptical view of this issue and either refuse coverage or make it very expensive. Our landowner could also show some concerns and the permit application requirements can reflect this.
Good business practice is to steer clear of problems like this. Uncertainty is a bad thing when an organization needs to plan for the future, and all good businesses do. Our sanctioning bodies, insurers, and race sponsors must be very concerned.
Any solution will need to consider materials such as tires, equipment, and the human factor. The fix must be idiot proof. Er, to be politically correct, "not subject to error in application." The solution may, and probably will, involve more than tire selection. Limits on sit-on bikes, such as no fuel or blowers in larger displacement classes? A possibility. Traction control for the big bruisers? Maybe.
External parties have the power to solve this problem for us. The solution might not be what we want. An alternative is for us to quickly fix the problem ourselves. This winter. As racers, we must realize that we cannot do business as usual. We must change, and we need to support our leadership with our good ideas and participation.
Now I will go back to loading the truck.
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The cure for this is very simple I think, someone needs to shell out the upfront cost of an LSR tire to fit the popular sportbikes running these great speeds over 225+ mph, that would require an LSR tire that could bolt on to a 17" rim, no one has ever had an issue with the front tires chunking that I am aware of?
Thoughts and consturctive ideas..?
No bashing or BS..just good ideas please..
John
PS. Anyone know the cost for an LSR tire mold and the minimum amount of tires needed to get this going and the unit cost of the tire?
What company could/would do this?
J
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I don’t know about the cost of an LSR tire. But I had some Firestone Indy tires made for car I am restoring and for them to pull their old molds and run a minimum of 30 tires cost 25K and two years of jumping through hoops. Mind you this was for a tire they had the molds for with no changes. Denis told me that for the 400 MPH tires it was in the six figures and Goodyear modified an existing LSR tire mold.
I think the problem you will run into is going to be on the liability side and finding a tire company to live with that liability. With the familiarity of the fast Japanese bikes I would think that some of their tire manufactures might be open to the idea. But for the right amount of $$$ anything is possible. Tony
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John, that is a good point that you made about the FRONT tires never shredding, blistering, etc. They don't develop problems no matter what speed they are run because they do not spin and retain heat. That is why I think this issue is all about the rider managing the wheel spin, not whether the tire is a race tire or not. ZR DOT tires can hold up to the 3000+ RPM so that is not the problem.
My bike develops wheel spin on every run and I have to resist the impulse to go WOT when I see the timing marker. Wheel spin will actually slow me down. I have developed my own electronic "slipometer" and will test it at BUB. It measures wheel spin and tells me visually how much spin I am getting. Here is the prototype. It works on my bench testing, now lets see if it helps me stay hooked up. Here's a photo.
Don
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Might check with Acabion in Berlin, who came to this site 6 years ago looking for 300 to 400 mph tires for their Road Streamliner. Perhaps they now have what they need (17 inch, if memory serves, as the vehicle is powered by a turbo Hayabusa). 6 years ago there was a problem for car tires, when the M/Ts were out of production. It didn't look good, but after a couple of years of being approached they did make more. The Alaska Bush Wheel company in Enterprise, OR, bought some tire building machines for possible race tire products, quoted about $150,000 cost to make the molds, again, 6 years ago. Somewhere in my files are CAD pictures of the construction of tires which were featured in a tire company news release, a decade ago, for their success in Iron Butt and LSR, including runs well over 200 at Bonneville; have a copy of that news release, too. If one approaches a tire maker, it wouldn't hurt to have an idea of the number of motorcycles requiring 200 mph + tires and the number of replacements estimated to be needed during the racing seasons, so they can pencil out a forecast for the market.
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... it wouldn't hurt to have an idea of the number of motorcycles requiring 200 mph + tires from all known racing venues, East and West, and the number of replacements needed during the racing seasons, so they can pencil out a forecast for the market.
Lets not get us milers involved in this. We are fine the way we are.
Dunlop @ Speedweek said they are building a 300mph drag tire and can convert it to LSR. Sounded like this was in the works for the near future.
Bill
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Noonan,
I think your idea is the right one. Just get a tire manufacturer to go along with it for a reasonable cost. I would think if there was only 1 approved tire that everybody had to run would really simplify things and would keep costs down in the future. Just like Nascar does now.
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Well, BUB is over.... where is all the tire results??
Any failures? any at all??
Bill
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None that I saw but then again no bikes went over 240 mph.
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Most of the tires that blistered at SW were sub 200 runs.
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My Bridgestone BT-003 RACING tire went into automatic deflation mode after about 6 runs. It showed wear, but no damage. I showed it to Drew and the only thing we could figure was lack of quality control. There must be a pinhole in it somewhere. I have not had time to really look at it.
Don
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This is a question from a slow guy. I am curious, that is all.
My experience with road racing tires is that they come in many different flavors, soft, intermediate, and hard. Then there are slicks and grooved rain tires. Tire care is an issue, too. A fresh new tire is vastly different than one of the same brand and type that sits in a car trunk during the off-season.
Has anyone found a variety of racing tire that works better than any other?
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Well, BUB is over.... where is all the tire results??
Any failures? any at all??
Bill
Greg (Maj)here on Jims login
i chunked one,return after the 229, realy wanted a 230 slip and was spinning lots ,scta spec med/hard race rubber at 50 psi
and i heard of one other racer doing similar but not sure which tire
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A quote from an email this morning in response to my inquiry regarding the availability of used tire testing machines:
As an alternative to buying a machine; there are some companies that have
test machine capable of 300 mph (our lab capability is only 225 mph).
Perhaps we could help you locate a machine that you could rent for your
trials.
Also, we have in our lab a no-load free-spin machine that can free-spin a
tire up to 500 mph. We have used this machine to qualify tires for use on
the salt flats previously. You would have to check with the governing body
to see if you need to test under load or test without load. If they only
require a tire integrity test at high speed with no load, we can do this in
our lab. Charges for such tests are in the range of $150 to $ 250 per tire.
Forty years ago I worked on building a set of tire test machines for a large company, their name started with a "G." I was hoping, what with the collapse of industry here, that a used machine might be rusting somewhere but available cheap. But at these prices, it may be worth a look. Now, the tire testing in Montana by some LSR competitors, I recall that was free-spin. If it's good enough for the sanctioning orgs, I'd like to shave a few sizes of ZR, buff the nomenclature off the sidewalls, and be the "re-manufacturer" of a set of narrow 18-inch. Spin them up to 300 and see if they crap out. Would documentation on the process, complete w/video, have any "traction" with the governing bodies?
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As I mentioned several months ago, Joe Law, when he retired from LSR with every record he went after, had a tire testing machine that would spin tires.
It was for sale "cheap" according to a conversation with Joe a couple of years ago.
If you really are interested in testing your own tires have at it.
Looks to me though with all the discussion amongst you motorbike guys, that the problem looks like spinning the tire against the salt, not just centrifugal force that may be generated by high speed.
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That's the difference. Running the tires up to speed against a load would give a better indication of radial stress resistance. However, there is no accounting for tire spin on the drum surface to reflect tires spinning on salt.
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centrifugal force affects the tire at the rim bead area lifting the tire off of the bead causing air leakage... the lighter race spec tire has not had that problem.... The Bridgestone tires are lighter than Dunlops.... the tire damage we have see has been blistering of the tread surface...... absolutely and only caused by heat.... a free spun tire testing does not develop heat to recreate the problems we are having.... a loaded tire experiences carcuss distortion as well as surface contact both developing heat..... to help determine and recreate the problems we are exhibiting the tire must be loaded and spun..
Kent
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Last week I ran across more notes from conversations with Marvin Rifchen 6 years ago. Some non-radial stuff included about numbers of cord layers to increase stiffness and keep the beads from moving in on the rims, along with the wire in the bead to resist centrifugal growth.
For free-spinning, it would be just as easy to do some calculations and rig up an attachment to the PTO on the big tractor down on the farm. The quote above is from STL in Massilon, OH, if any interested parties or folk from tire committees have interest in direct contact w/o a post whore like me as a filter. <fm--at--stllabs.com>
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centrifugal force affects the tire at the rim bead area lifting the tire off of the bead causing air leakage... the lighter race spec tire has not had that problem.... The Bridgestone tires are lighter than Dunlops.... the tire damage we have see has been blistering of the tread surface...... absolutely and only caused by heat.... a free spun tire testing does not develop heat to recreate the problems we are having.... a loaded tire experiences carcuss distortion as well as surface contact both developing heat..... to help determine and recreate the problems we are exhibiting the tire must be loaded and spun..
Kent
Thank you Kent! Much quality info there, made it worth wading through all these posts.
Cheers,
Dave
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rigging up a machine to free spin is a piece of cake.... we could actually spin/load test on our dyno up to 200mph but the bearings would need to be serviced frequently.....