Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: 38flattie on July 30, 2010, 12:37:06 AM
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Wow! The more I read the rules, the more I realize I bit off a lot here.
These rules are as clear as mud to me, so can someone clarify this for me? I have a Cadillac flathead, factory 346 cid, that I thought would be an XXO, and I thought I'd be able to run XXO/BVGC. Now I don't know what I have, besides a headache. Lol!
2.A.1, Vintage Engines Describes XO class as( condensed version!): class consists of inline overhead valve (OHV), flathead inline, and flathead v8 ( except Ford and Mercury),up to 325 inches.
XXO class is an XO engine, as describes above, with a specialty cylinder head as described below
A specialty cylinder head is fabricated,from billet stock or cast.At least one valve per cylinder shall be in the head.All X class engines, as described above, which are over325 cid, but less than 375 cid, shall be classified as either XXF or XXO. Specialty cylinder heads are NOT allowed in this instance.
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Not that hard, really. You have a Flathead Cadillac V8, so that makes it XF or XXF.Your displacement is 346ci, that automatically makes it XXF. You will be running against flathead Ford/Merc engines that displace less than 325ci, but have Ardun or similar heads. Because of the lage displacement of your engine, you cannot run any OHV conversion heads, but can run a flathead design head modified...combustion chamber design, even twin plugs, just not OHV,OHC,F Head..... :cheers:
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Well, The way I read it, XF Is Ford/ Mercury up to 325 cid, and XXF is Ford Mercury over 325 cid, with a specialty head. Then later in the description, it says no specialty heads! :?
The bold print statements are contradicting, unless I'm reading to much into this.
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So, for my edification, a specialty head is an ohv/ohc conversion, but if the valves remain in the block, regardless of the head, it's not a specialty head?
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That's how I read it, except OHC is not allowed either. I just got tired of typing and didn't quote it.
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Yep, the `Specialty`designation as defined by SCTA/BNI MEANS JUST THAT,don`t forget that any record holding XF engine has aftermarket heads,Edelbrock, Offy, Kong even, but any Ardun type conversion automatically puts you into XX class....OK? :cheers: :cheers:
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That's nice, but I don't care about the Xf, XXF, or Ardun conversions. I won't be running against Fords, let alone Fords with less than 325 cid, like you stated. They are Fords, and have their own classes.
I'm trying to figure out, if the Cadillac engine, at 373.5 cid, will qualify as an XXO engine because of the cid, or if it HAS to have a specialty head to qualify.
Anyone who know's?
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Wow! The more I read the rules, the more I realize I bit off a lot here.
These rules are as clear as mud to me, so can someone clarify this for me? I have a Cadillac flathead, factory 346 cid, that I thought would be an XXO.
It is.
Tom G.
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I'm trying to figure out, if the Cadillac engine, at 373.5 cid, will qualify as an XXO engine because of the cid.
Yes.
Tom G.
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Thought I explained this once already. XX0 would be an under 325 engine with an OHV conversion or 12 port in the case of a GMC. Or a still flathead Cad between 325 and 375 cubic inches Read the sentence "All X class engines, as described above"--ect. These X and XX rules are not that hard to understand but people keep reading them to much. You would think by now everyone would know that XF is a Ford only class. Not even a Lincoln flathead V8 can sneak in. No Ford flathead sixs. But no. Some pretty well informed people still don't get it. Anyway you have been right all along XXO/BGVC
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Thanks guys! Guess I'm reading to much into these rules, sometimes. I appreciate the clarification.
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Everybody STOP!!!!
"All X class engines, as described above, which are over 325 cid, but less than 375 cid, shall be classified as either XXF or XXO."
F engines in this case are FORD/MERC PASSENGER CAR engines. You are XXO.
Thats it.
DW
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Thanks Dan, I was getting a headache. Im not even a car guy but understand that an anything with an F is a ford/merc flathead. :-D
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Hey Bud,
I think you'll find, over time, that the rules are very well written.
If you start to use a highlighter pen on the "clear to your car only", sentences pertaining to your build only... it will help tremendously.
If guys like Rich Fox , DW ...or hell even Stan Back {cough}answer a question , ya outa open the book and highlight it and move on.
Realizing the job the SCTA officials have in enveloping nearly a hundred classes that cross into one another, it makes for some tough text.
Stay focused... I'd sure like to see a blown 38 Cadi Flatty run.
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Thanks Dan, I was getting a headache. Im not even a car guy but understand that an anything with an F is a ford/merc flathead. :-D
Fred,
Don't forget to add "passenger car engines" to Ford/Merc. :-o
When X/F came about it did not say "passenger car engine" in the rule book. I spent about $4,000 buying some "Ford" flathead motors. DW informed me they were illegal because he thought they were actually a Lincoln 337 inch motor. Well when I showed DW a head that had Ford inscripted on it, the next year the rule book wording was changed and that is when they added "passenger car engines". The motors I had were made for Ford Trucks.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have never said a word, and just brought it out and run it, and watched the expressions on everyone's face when I pulled out the Ford head. :evil: :-o
Tom G.
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Yea, sorry, brainfart on my part! Rich has offered nothing but solid advice from the get-go.
Rich had told me , probably a year ago now, that the engine would be XXO. However, being the brainiac I am, I overthought it. When I read it, I thought it meant I HAD to have an overhead valve( speciality), modified engine to qualify.
Then, being even smarter than before, I thought it contradicted itself by saying NO speciality head.
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Flattie, you fit in this group perfectly!!! :-D :-D 8-)
Pete
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Thanks Peter Jack :-D
And Jeff. the Flatcad will run next year! I just spent about 216 hours reading, and rereading the rules yesterday. Today I picked up the GM 7;5{ rear end, 4-link, watts link, and 4" drop axle for the front.I also scheduled 6 weeks off for next year, !/2 of July, and all of August! I'm in too far, and I'm too excited to back out now.
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I may not know much, but I know what class a flathead Cad runs in.
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Aw, quit it Rich, The truth is, I thought we'd got all the milage we could out of the dry style blower, and thought I'd give you some more ammo! :wink:
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Huh. For over twenty years now, I was under the impression that XO and XXO engines were INLINE ONLY--eg Chev and GMC 6 engines in XO, and with 12 Port conversions, they went to XXO with those big inch Buick Straight 8 engines. I even had thought that the Flathead Cad V8 engine could be run in XF class with a destroked crank to get it under 325inches...cause I had thought those XF and XXF classes were for V8/12 engines......
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And Stan Back thinks motorcycle classes are confusing...............................................................
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Huh. For over twenty years now, I was under the impression that XO and XXO engines were INLINE ONLY--eg Chev and GMC 6 engines in XO, and with 12 Port conversions, they went to XXO with those big inch Buick Straight 8 engines.
Kiwi Paul,
According to the 1986 Rule Book you are correct. Things change over the years, a couple of word here and there over the years and the description changes. Don't feel bad, that is just the way it is. Just another reason to check the rule book every year to stay on top of things.
Tom G.
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Hey, DeSoto --
You'da still had to make it to impound before anyone gave a damn.
Stan
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Hey Tom...Did you have a shop in Castaic or thereabouts about 20 years or so ago? It seems to me that my old pal Ed `Hardway` Morrill took me over to meet you.....I remember something to that effect, although with my crappy interpretation of the current XXO rules, i can`t rely on much anymore....
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Hey Tom...Did you have a shop in Castaic or thereabouts about 20 years or so ago? It seems to me that my old pal Ed `Hardway` Morrill took me over to meet you....
Kiwi Paul,
Wow there is a name I have not heard of in a long time. I never had a shop in Castaic or Valencia, but an old drag-racer(that owned an auto parts shop) that raced Flathead Fords did. Ed made him up a set of Aluminum Rods for his Flathead. That was back in the 1980's sometime. Ed made 9 Alum Rods and let me borrow the extra one he had made to see if it would work in my project. I never had him make me a set because the guy who used them actually slowed down just a little ET wise. I think it was the windage the rods created compared to say 21A Ford rods.
Last I heard Ed moved to Palmdale or Lancaster, but that was 10 years or so ago. He was a great guy and loved his bluegrass music.
Tom G.
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I think you'll find, over time, that the rules are very well written
Still waiting for that...
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Panic,
The cutoff for rule changes is Sept.1. After that we can modify existing rules, no changes, just clarifications. You want to help with that?
DW
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DW, You have a thankless job, I for one are very grateful that you do it. See you on the salt. :cheers: Tony
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Doing Rule Book changes is a pain, period. I truly believe everyone feels Dan does a good job on the Rulebook. New products come out all the time and they may not be legal in certain classes, especially since some are computer or micro processor controlled. One person does not have the ability to know everything, so there will be some mistakes made, but that is human.
That is why this forum is a great place, new products can be discussed thoroughly, and found to be legal or illegal for a given class.
In 1986 the Rulebook was only a total of 80 pages. The 2010 Rulebook is 240 pages total. In 24 years it has tripled in size. And in the future I don't see it getting any smaller. Everyone pushes the rules to the limit, and when they go too far new rules, or clarifications to rules get put into the Rulebook. Without a doubt it is a thankless job, because you cannot make everyone happy.
Tom G.
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Ditto.
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Double ditto!!!
I think the rules and the rule book (SCTA and ECTA) are excellent. The problem we have is that the books are written in English. No, that's not a joke. English is tough to use when you want to put out something that is precise and will mean the same thing to a wide range of readers from new first time LSR folk up through the seasoned veterans and everybody in between. There is an infinite number of possible car and bike body, frame and engine combinations that have to be addressed in one little book. Very, very hard to do. My hat is off to DW and the others that dedicate the time and effort to the rules and their interpretation.
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Thanks for the support everyone.
It is not only me that works hard on the rulebook. It takes a team to attack each section on an annual basis. I mentioned in another post that I am currently tackling the engine swap wording in the GT section. One battle at a time.
I invited Panic to supply his input to help with the rulebook a little later this year because he seems to have some definite ideas as to how the book should read. No response yet.
DW
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Thanks for the support everyone.
It is not only me that works hard on the rulebook. It takes a team to attack each section on an annual basis. I mentioned in another post that I am currently tackling the engine swap wording in the GT section. One battle at a time.
I invited Panic to supply his input to help with the rulebook a little later this year because he seems to have some definite ideas as to how the book should read. No response yet.
DW
Watch out for invisible ink :-)
JL222