Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Blue on July 29, 2010, 12:19:46 PM
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I was called on a mis-statement privately, so I need to publicly apologize here. I called the 7070 accident a "blowover" when it was not. I do believe that the CG was too far aft on a long nose vehicle and that this is fudamentally unstable. Jack doesn't agree; OK, we disagree. In addition, some of the responders to the previous thread believe that I am advocating some kind of rule outlawing some cars. To be absolutely clear: I do not advocate outlawing anything. I DO believe that aerodynamic instability is as dangerous as negative castor or rear wheel steering. Defining aero instability in a simple and cheap manner for LSR is hard, and I would never advocate applying it as a rule unless it was simple and cheap; i.e. on the level of a safety inspector measuring castor angle.
I admire Jack's designs in many ways, mostly for the number of records he has with small displacement. This may not have been clear when I posted my absolute disagreement with flat bottoms on streamliners for both drag and departure criteria. I respect Jack's opinion on this, I do not agree with it.
I am glad that the previous topic spurred a lot of response and some incredibly detailed driver and builder descriptions. I intended the topic to only address streamliners, yet more than one roadster driver posted some really good stuff. Everybody learned more about the dynamics of handling, including me.
As to my own qualifications, I raced superbikes for 4 years, built and raced an enduro cart (125cc shifter), re-engined a hydroplane and never made it class legal (oops!), hopped up and stripped out an RX-7 and learned all about going backwards when violating the limits of trailing arm/solid axle handling (zero steering effect at 140 due to nose lift, and am currently working on a wide variety of aircraft including 7 jets 4 of which should be in the races this September. I have made every aircraft I have ever modified go faster and stall slower and have yet to meet another aerodynamicist that can claim that.
Some here think that this doesn't qualify me to comment on LSR. OK, ignore me. I've grown a thicker skin over the last few years, and I really don't think that anyone should take anything I say as the absolute be-all end-all on a subject. I do think that if an expert in a given field (and mine is aerodynamics) says something that doesn't agree with what you've heard elsewhere, you need to go find someone equally qualified in that field. I have a large amount of respect for everyone in LSR because you guys are constantly changing things. And if you get out into some of the other motorsports (especially air racing) you will find a parochial attitude of stasis that will blow your mind.
Sorry I didn't get back on this earlier, 60 hour weeks in a 95 degree shop do that to you. I may not have time before Speed Week to post anything else. I will be there, I just got offered a room and a friend of mine and I are coming. I'll have my armor on, so anyone who wants to shoot arrows can do it then! :cheers:
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Blue, looking forward to meeting and talking to you. I am in the timing trailer and will be at salt talks on Sunday. Will also be around the inspection area once we are set up and have the systems checked out.
:cheers:
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Blue, looking forward to meeting and talking to you. I am in the timing trailer and will be at salt talks on Sunday. Will also be around the inspection area once we are set up and have the systems checked out.
:cheers:
Don't believe everything you here. I'm still waiting to hear who his ''drivers'' are and what cars he has designed.
Blue says he's not advocating outlawing any vehicles but if SCTA adopts his proof of aero stability that would be the result.
Don't forget what Porkpie says..... ask 10 aerodynamist and you get 10 different answers :roll:
I for one am not so gullible as to believe Blue is going to be so busy he can't post....B+S!!!
JL222
Glen ask blue about his drivers and cars, he's not going to answer that here :evil:
JL222
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John, you are already testing Eric's (Blue) skin thickness!! I, for one, looking forward to meeting Eric as my meger E mail discussions with him have been very interesting. We may some time in the future get to see the results of Eric's thinking as I am designing my small lakester around his thinking. I only need to get some of my wife's list of "honey dues" beaten down so I can work on the lakester in ernest! And I thought I would have lots of time when I retired!!!
Rex
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John, you are already testing Eric's (Blue) skin thickness!! I, for one, looking forward to meeting Eric as my meger E mail discussions with him have been very interesting. We may some time in the future get to see the results of Eric's thinking as I am designing my small lakester around his thinking. I only need to get some of my wife's list of "honey dues" beaten down so I can work on the lakester in ernest! And I thought I would have lots of time when I retired!!!
Rex
And he has tested mine.
jl222
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I find it interesting how much discussion has been generated by Cliff's accident in 7070. There seems to be a lot of "experts" that know more about the cause and effect issues of his accident than the family does. I do not agree with this, but I do not have to like it either. The accident also has been the catalyst of at least one rule change. I am sure "it is for the betterment of the sport". I feel Jack builds good vehicles and strives to improve them any way he can.
Dale
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Blue
My designs are wrong, but they work! Yours are correct, but don't exist! "Nebulous Theorem"
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Blue
How can you say negative caster is bad?
How can you say rear steering is bad?
How can you say flat bottoms are bad?
Could you guarantee a crash proof design?
Does sarcasm have any value?
Is there a different color?
How can I better my designs? (no starting over)
Is Pamala Anderson a good design?
Respectfully Jack
P.S.Sorry I can't respond at your technical level. I have to be smarty pants!
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Jack,
in my business we say
"if you know nothing, start to talk technical...".... :|......just to impress the people in the meeting room
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OK, Blue.....I will get out of the barrel.....it is your turn now.....hang in there.........
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While we're on the subject of aerodynamics, I've always understood that aircraft in ground effects act considerably different than when they're operating in their intended medium. Is it not possible that vehicles that operate only in ground effects operate under a considerably different set of aerodynamic laws than those designed to fly? Just another thing to think carefully about.
Pete
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Finally!!! I was taught from a very early age that actions are stronger than words.
A nod,
a bow,
and a tip of the lid
to the person
who coulda
and shoulda
and did.
old...
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Finally!!! I was taught from a very early age that actions are stronger than words.
A nod,
a bow,
and a tip of the lid
to the person
who coulda
and shoulda
and did.
old...
:cheers:
JL222
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Neb.....Which of Pamala's designs are you refering too.....as I recall, there are more than one. :evil:
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JD lol :cheers:
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Jeez ---if I was a thin skinned as some of us I would not be so fortunate as to have a hat---
some of us may not like what is said from time to time but I would be surprised if we all could not learn something from nearly everyone
A LOT of times when people are enraged professionally they are like the guy who gets in a gals pants and can keep his mouth shut---lots of times he gets an opportunity with her friends with out her knowing because she didn't keep hers shut :evil:
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Eric
you state you raced superbikes for 4 years... What bike and with what sanctioning body.... i have been supplying most professional and club level racers with motorcycle bodywork for the last 28 years (since 1983) and i cant find any record of ya... Sean and Evelyn at WERA don't know ya.... What club did ya say ya raced with? So in interpreting your post, you state you have built stuff that didn't work.... say it isn't so? But we are suppose to trust your advise on dangerous stuff like vehicle aerodynamics just because the only stuff you claimed worked that you have touched is totally un related to what works.....
Listen, you guys are all starving ethiopean kids tugging on the shirt sleive of a man who says he has rice in his pocket.... This guy is feeding off of your desperation for the holy grail.... Beware this snake oil salesman's advise could kill ya....
Kent
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Eric
you state you raced superbikes for 4 years... What bike and with what sanctioning body.... i have been supplying most professional and club level racers with motorcycle bodywork for the last 28 years (since 1983) and i cant find any record of ya... Sean and Evelyn at WERA don't know ya.... What club did ya say ya raced with? So in interpreting your post, you state you have built stuff that didn't work.... say it isn't so? But we are suppose to trust your advise on dangerous stuff like vehicle aerodynamics just because the only stuff you claimed worked that you have touched is totally un related to what works.....
Listen, you guys are all starving ethiopean kids tugging on the shirt sleive of a man who says he has rice in his pocket.... This guy is feeding off of your desperation for the holy grail.... Beware this snake oil salesman's advise could kill ya....
Kent
Hey Kent, you make me look good :-P
JL222
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what part ya like the best? Ethiopians or the snake oil?..... Hey, Ya ever eaten Ethiopian food? i did once up in LA..... now i know why those people are starving!...
Kent
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WOW, I wonder what their reproduction rate would be if they were well fed.
FREUD
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Eric
you state you raced superbikes for 4 years... What bike and with what sanctioning body.... i have been supplying most professional and club level racers with motorcycle bodywork for the last 28 years (since 1983) and i cant find any record of ya... Sean and Evelyn at WERA don't know ya.... What club did ya say ya raced with?
AFM and AMA, #2 Open in the Sears Point '82 enduro and a heat race win in AMA superbike in '83 when we were lucky enough that they segregated the privateers from the factory rides. Lots of crashes and other finishes that were impressive for a minimum wage privateer in a big money sport and not impressive on any record book. I was pre-John Woo, if you remember that era and got out after his death (for other reasons). Funny thing, I ran into Scott a few years back and we both remarked about how much thinner we were then... WERA wasn't around then, I'm older than that. In my day (geezer comment coming) we weren't ALLOWED to have bodywork on the bikes unless we were GP. Don't even get me started about the tire and wheel width restrictions...
If you don't like what I have to offer, post some test results or ignore me. You make some good observations, why not test and learn from the data?
What's the world's fastest land animal???
An Ethiopian chicken!