Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: LittleLiner on July 19, 2010, 05:59:55 PM
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This question deals with cars in either Production, Production Supercharged, GT or Blown GT. I’ve been searching around the postings looking at things that have been written about reduced displacement. . . . . Stuff like running a v8 on 4 cylinders by removing pushrods, or pistons etc, etc.
Question: Is running a reduced displacement engine ‘legal’ in the production category?
I think the answer is ‘yes’. I guess I could send off a question to the committee guys . . . but for now would rather see what the consensus is out here in Landracing.com land.
Thanks Art
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Art -
In production, just about anything is allowed with the engine, provided it's not specifically prohibited. GT does allow swaps, but "original configuration" is required for other production cars.
So the configuration remains the same, but with a few missing parts? :roll: Is removing pistons a modification, or a change in configuration? The block hasn't changed, so if it were up to me (it's not), I'd call it a modification.
You have to maintain stock port locations, and you can't convert a OHV to a OHC, but other than that, it's my understanding that if the engine meets the requirement for the class, what you do with the internals is left to your discretion.
Chris
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Yes, you can run a reduced displacement engine in the Production classes. The caveat is that the engine must be available in the year/model of the vehicle you run. The difference is in GT where any engine from the same manufacturer is allowed. For example, a Honda motorcycle specific engine is not allowed in a Honda car unless you can prove it is an engine option.
As always, be prepared to defend your position in the Production classes with approiate documentation.
DW
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Regarding a Honda motorcycle engine in a Honda car - provided the car in question is a 2-seater, such as an S-600, S-800, CRX, Insight, etc., which qualifies for the GT/Sports class - why not? The rules for this class state that "Engine swaps are permitted as long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche, etc.)". There's no mention of the swapped-in engine having to be an option for the car in question, or any prohibition on the use of a motorcycle engine in a car (provided they're from the same manufacturer).
I'm aware that there's a sentence in the GT/Sports rules reading "Rules for this class will be strictly enforced to ensure that cars entered therein are typical of street machines which may be purchased from an automobile dealer." This a rather vague statement, to say the least! Just what does it mean?
Additionally, the definition of "Engine Swap" in 4.N states "An engine swap is defined as the use of an engine from an engine design family that was not available as a factory or dealer installed option for a given vehicle year is used." Since the GT/Sports rules specifically allow engine swaps, this would appear to prohibit use of an engine if it WAS available as an option.
Finally, what about the Hasport Insight? It currently holds the record in G/GT - and that class is for (appx) 1.5-2.0 liter engines. I think Insights were originally equipped with a 995-cc, 3-cylinder engine. So, it would appear that this particular vehicle had an engine swap, and I very seriously doubt if any other engines were optional for the Insight. I'd guess this car may well have some version of the Honda S-2000 engine, which would be a hot set-up, indeed!
So, if there's any tech inspectors out there reading this, what's your take on it? Can a motorcycle engine be swapped into a GT/Sports car, provided the car and engine were built by the same manufacturer? If not, why?
Jeff in Boise
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Jeff, please don't double post,thanks
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Courtesy of Dan Warner - he certifies records for the SCTA - extracted from a previous thread - reply #42 -
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4936.0.html
"Page 70
"The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer."
Page 72 & 74
"Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and a starter capable of starting the engine may be used so long as the original running gear design is retained."
The first sentence is from the 2008 rulebook. The section is the overall rules for the five Production Category classes. The second sentence is from the same book, underlines mine, covers both the Production class and the GT class. Reference is made back to these two classes in the PS, PP and MPP classes.
The way I see it is that a motorcycle engine into a car is NOT allowed based on the ANY automobile dealer caveat. If you could buy a motorcycle engine from the automobile dealer can the "original running gear design" be retained?
If you can provide documenatation to fulfill the requirements of these rules then you may have a chance to create a successful build."
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I definitely have to disagree with the part about "The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile Dealer.". In the GT/Sports class, (unlike the other classes in the Production Category) there is a clause that specifically permits engine swaps, which are defined (in 4.N.) as NOT being available as a factory or dealer-installed option. If this is not permissible in the GT/Sports classes, how do you explain the record-holding G/GT (1.5-2.0 liter) Honda Insight?
On the other hand, you may have a point regarding the "original running gear" requirement. The sentence in which it appears reads "Any transmission, non-quick change rear end, and an on-board starter shall be used, so long as the original running gear design is retained." Unfortunately, I don't see where "original running gear design" is defined. Does that just include the transmission, rear end, and starter as mentioned in the subject sentence? In order to maintain the "original running gear design" was that record-setting Insight required to have an electric motor assist, with which it was originally equipped? I'd think that it was certainly part of the "original running gear design".
It looks like there's pretty good arguments on both sides of this question. Maybe the rules need a bit of tweaking to clear things up. I really don't know anything about that particular Honda Insight. However, it may have set some kind of precedent. I guess I'll talk to the tech guys in a couple of weeks and see what they have to say.
Does anybody else have anything to add?
Jeff in Boise
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Hey, Jeff -
Yes -
Regarding the Insight, the overreaching intro to the production category states that you have to run a stock power pack, and the displacement of the engine determines the class. Page 72 of the 2010 rulebook.
One other thing - in the case of the Insight, the drivetrain is a parallel hybrid design with regenerative braking. Be tough to do with an engine swap and keep the "original running gear design".
I like the idea of the S-600/S-800. If it were to pass muster with the folks as a "GT", I believe the engines in both of those vehicles WERE motorcycle based, which would give you some legit latitude for a swap.
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First, let me apologize for this thread diverting into the old "bike engine in a car for GT classes debate." That was NOT my intent. One reply mentioned that you could not put a bike engine in a production category class car in his reply (I suspect) since he is aware that I am building a bike engined car (not for GT but for Gas Coupe).
Actually, I asked the original question specifically for some coworkers that have been reading my rule book and wanted to see if it was OK to shutdown two cylinders in a car with it's original, factory equipped, engine in Pro and PS and if it was also permitted in GT and BGT? That's all . . .
As far as the S600 originally having a 'bike' engine . . .that's true. But that fact does not automatically imply that you can then swap in any other Honda bike engine.
Maybe someone can start another topic about the interpretation of the terminology allowing swaps of any engine from the same manufacturer in the GT and BGT classes. Example, Fiat and Chrysler are now joined in a deal as a single car company. So, is it now allowed to run a Chrysler Hemi in a Fiat 850 spyder in the GT class? Or how about a Pontiac Soltice. They are (were?) GM products. Is it allowed swap in an engine from another GM line like a Buick? Is the "Manufacturer" Pontiac or General Motors?
Whatever the answer is, I am now confident that the allowable engines may be run with some cylinders 'removed' to go to a smaller displacement class . . . .
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First, let me apologize for this thread diverting into the old "bike engine in a car for GT classes debate."
I stand guilty of that charge. Sorry 'bout that. :|
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The Honda Sports (S360-S800) engines were not based on a motorcycle engine! :mrgreen:
Introduced at the 1962 Tokyo Motor Show, inline DOHC, 4 carbs, RWD (with the wacky chain-drive IRS)
http://www.hondasportsregistry.com/index.php :cheers:
Would make a cool modified sports though.
Mike
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The Honda Sports (S360-S800) engines were not based on a motorcycle engine! :mrgreen:
. . . . . .
Mike
I stand corrected. Thanks Mike. Maybe a better example should have been one of the Berkeleys.
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Little,
No, I did not know you are building a 'bike' engined car. A tiny bit paranoid?
DW
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Little,
No, I did not know you are building a 'bike' engined car. A tiny bit paranoid?
DW
(. . .Was in the midst of my response and my internet connectivity blew a rod . . . . just got it back) Anyway I was going to say . . . describing me a a 'tiny bit paranoid' is a gross understatement. :>)
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:?
DW
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I am confussed about the bike engine in a car, but Jesse's volkswagon truck set a record with two cylinders disabled.
Steve
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Earlier today, I spoke with Brian at Hasport in Phoenix regarding their G/GT record-holding Honda Insight. He told me that, although I couldn't find it on the pre-entry list, they would have it at Speedweek, probably arriving on Sunday, August 14.
I also asked him a few questions regarding application of the rules to his car. What I understood was that:
1) The car was exempt from the requirement for "The engine used shall have been available in the model of vehicle used as purchased from ANY automobile dealer." as listed under "Production Category" on page 71 of the 2010 rules. The reason being that they took advantage of the clause listed under the Grand Touring Sport rules on page 75 stating "Engine swaps are permitted as long as they are of the same manufacturer (e.g. Ford into Ford, Porsche into Porsche, etc.)." See the definition of "Engine swap" on page 40 for details.
2) For the same reason (i.e. the engine swap), their car was also exempt from the requirement for battery packs in hybrid-engined cars, since it was no longer a hybrid engine.
3) They were in also compliance with the requirement (page 71) for retaining the "original running gear design" as the car was still "front engine, front wheel drive". This requirement is further defined in the last paragraph on page 71.
4) I also asked Brian about the requirement for the engine swaps in Grand Touring Sports to be "...of the same manufacturer...", and whether this meant GM or Chevrolet/etc. He said it was his understanding (based on his knowledge of another car that was so equipped, and approved) that it meant GM, and was not restricted to an engine made by the same GM Division as the car in question. In other words, a Cadillac engine in a Corvette would be permissible.
5) Finally, I asked about the use of a Honda motorcycle engine in a Honda car. He said he thought this was prohibited, even though it's not specifically spelled out anywhere.
I think the first three above are pretty obvious, but it would be nice to have the last two cleared up once and for all. Maybe if they could add a word or two here, and there...
So, I guess this may mean no Hayabusa in an XC-90, and I probably should abandon my search for a 2-seat Packard to go with that old Merlin.
Jeff in Boise
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I think you could (and should!) run the Merlin in a Packard Modified Roadster. They have MC-engined MR's -- right?
Stan
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I probably should abandon my search for a 2-seat Packard to go with that old Merlin.
Jeff in Boise
Only if you don't like crowds. LOL. That would be the cats meow.
Tom G.
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Dwight Bond, founder of Gibbon Fiberglass, was also, I believe, a Packard restorer and perhaps made a fiberglass roadster body or two for mundane sedan chasses, maybe something like the one he's standing next to:
(http://www.protatch.com/images/RustInPeace/bond1934.jpg)
:cheers:
Mike
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Once again the rulebook has proven to be lacking in clarification.
I am working on it in this case. One battle at a time.
DW