Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: SlyOneJr on July 05, 2010, 09:16:20 PM
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Ok, the title of this is a little misleading, but I have been sitting around with a few lengths of 1 1/2" DOM tubing to build a frame for the Lakester, and since I have FINALLY finished drawing up my blueprints for the chassis (some of us can't afford to use any of the autocad programs, not to mention a #2 pencil and a few sheets of paper still work), I decided to take the advice of several people on this board and a few other boards and get some 1 1/4" PVC to make a mock-up chassis to make sure everything will fit and work. Boy am I glad that I spent about $30 on PVC at Home Depot. Found out that a couple of the tubes that I had put in my blueprints wouldn't work, and I had drawn up my blueprints wrong. Seems that I forgot (ever happen to you? Happened to me once... :-D) that I needed to be up 1 1/2" from the bottom of the chassis to get the proper height. Glad that PVC is cheap. Well, back to the blueprints... Anyone got an electric eraser I can borrow?
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"Seems that I forgot (ever happen to you? Happened to me once... grin)" == well, there was that time that I thought I was wrong, but I was mistaken about it. Issat what you mean?
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Measure with a laser, mark it with chalk and cut with a sharp axe!
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I can't get that shitt to weld!
Stan
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Use low heat setting and pvc rod :cheers: :cheers:
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:-D Rember to purge the PVC before welding it! No telling what has gone thru it! Crow.
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I can't get that shitt to weld!
Stan
Use low heat setting and pvc rod :cheers: :cheers:
You guys should be doing stand up comedy
:-D
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Guess I should have put this under the "Build Diaries" section, but oh well.
Jon: That is actually one of my Dad's favorite sayings, he went so far as to have a sign made with that on it, hangs in the garage...
WOODY: Actually, using a Sharpie to mark it and my tubing notcher from Harbor Freight (the 3rd one actually, kept having problems with the quality, mandrels being bent, one was put together upside down and welded that way, hole saw adapters machined wrong so that the hole saw bit had a 1/4" of runout, guess someone had one too many sake breaks) to cut it, kinda gets me ready to actually cut the DOM, getting the angles and stuff. Not using a laser though, chalk line and a plumb bob seem to work...
Stan: Try using the glue, works for me, not to mention it makes you feel real good...
Deb: Got any of that PVC rod laying around? Might be able to sneak the PVC chassis past Joe and Keith...
Old Crow: Only thing that's been running through this PVC is BS...
Gearheadeh: Isn't this what LSR is all about anyways? Stand up?
Going to have to charge the batteries up in the camera and try to get a few pictures of this thing sitting on top of the Dining Room table so that more hilarity can ensue...
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If you want your stuff in autocad, I can do that for you. If you can scan what you have, I can draw it up.
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Another great Home Depo product for fabricating is Blue or pink insulation board. It comes in lots of different thicknesses from 1/4 inch to 3 inch thick. You can glue it together with hot glue cut it with a hand saw or knife. Building mock ups of tanks and aluminum sheets or body parts.I make molds from foam and produce fiberglass body parts from them.
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Which foam and which resin Racer X?
I know the wrong combination can lead to disaster.
Pete
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did not know I was flirting with disaster.
I use the big pink 2 foot X 4 foot boards of solid foam .It is with all the other insulation. I don't use the kind with foil on one side. As for resin. Just fiberglass resin.
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I noticed that you are using 1 1/2" DOM tubing to build a lakester chassis...what size engine are you planning to use??? You may want to consider using 1 5/8 dia. or bigger for the shoulder hoop and rollcage so you can install the big dog or resale value.
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By disaster I meant that some resins, ie: polyester vs. epoxy, aren't compatible with some foams. That means with incompatible resins and foams the shape may end up quite different than intended. :-o :-o :? :?
Pete
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Got a few more lengths of PVC from Home Depot, making a few more pieces to glue into my mock chassis. Whoever came up with this idea of using PVC is a genius!
116: Already started mocking up the chassis, so I think I am beyond putting it on AutoCAD, but I really appreciate the offer!
Racer X and Peter Jack: Thanks for the tips on what to use for fiberglass, no where near that stage, but I might pick up a piece or two and fake a front end to get an idea of what I'm looking at, might be more sturdy that pizza boxes...
Joe: Planning on starting off running a Ninja 250 engine, then moving up to an old Kawasaki H1 500 triple later on to run K/. Using the 1 1/2" here on the East Coast will allow me to go to G/, but I doubt that I will ever go past J/ since I don't plan on going west and I like the small motorcycle engines. Good idea about using 1 5/8" for the cage and shoulder hoop though, still might do that. Plan on using 1 1/2" for just about everything on the car except for a few non stressed cross braces and the helmet bars, that's going to be 1".
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We mocked up ur lakester chassis using 2X4 ripped in 1/2 . Like the idea of PVC much better. Learned some of our original thinking would not work . Wood was a lot cheaper than DOM.
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If you have never built a car before you might want to buy a set of SFI chassis specs. They will give you some ideas of tubing location relationships especially in the cage area. You will have to check against the SCTA/ECTA rules for tubing size and wall thickness. If you need any help, call me at the shop. Helping you build a safe car is important to me.
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By disaster I meant that some resins, ie: polyester vs. epoxy, aren't compatible with some foams. That means with incompatible resins and foams the shape may end up quite different than intended. :-o :-o :? :?
Pete
O yes I do know what you mean now. I used 3M spray adhesive to hold two pieces together to form a block. When I came came back after drying I had a hollow box! :-o
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For making bends in PVC I use a propane weed burner.
It works well on schedule 40, not so much on schedule 20.
Tape the ends closed and it will heat more evenly, Just don't get in a hurry and scorch it.
When you get it in the desired shape use a wet rag to cool it down.
Don
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pack it with sand, heat then bend. Old trick used for years before good mandrill benders. Don't forget to dump the sand.
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Got a set of SFI 2.5B specs for a rear engine dragster and I have both of my Dads dragsters to kind of go by, also have the ECTA rulebook and an NHRA rulebook, so I think I might be OK, will know when I bring the chassis to Maxton to get it checked out if I did a good job. Like the idea of heating the PVC to get it to bend, hadn't thought about doing that, but it makes sense. Might just have to got get another 10' length from Home Depot and bend a few pieces and put a couple of hoops for the roll cage up too. The sand trick works also, used to do that to bend fuel lines and brake tubing before I got a handy dandy tubing bender for doing small lines. I really appreciate all of the advice that everyone is giving me, not to mention all of the good natured picking at that I am getting also. Was talking in the chat room last night about paint schemes, and I think I came up with an idea. Think I'm going to paint the chassis white and have someone come and letter the chassis so that it looks exactly like the PVC tubing I'm using. How's that? :-D
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Think I'm going to paint the chassis white and have someone come and letter the chassis so that it looks exactly like the PVC tubing I'm using. How's that?
Don't forget to have a little glue showing at the joints. :-D
Don
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But of course! That and the slight tinge of purple from the primer! :cheers:
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If you mock the body up in foam, don't forget to wash it down with gasoline! It'll lighten the whole deal (it will disappear!). Easy way to get rid of foam cups, I've found. Not so good for holding gas to prime a new engine, however.
Dan
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Gorilla Glue bonds just about any foam.
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If you mock the body up in foam, don't forget to wash it down with gasoline! It'll lighten the whole deal (it will disappear!). Easy way to get rid of foam cups, I've found. Not so good for holding gas to prime a new engine, however.
Dan
Do Not Try This At Home Kids!!! Uncle Dan occasionally forgets his meds.
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I actually tried the "priming gas in the foam cup" deal. Shortly after foam cups became common and none of us guys knew a darn thing about foam. The gas fell out before I could get it to the carb. It was "back up and punt" time.
As those who know me know, I'm NEVER without my meds, and plenty of 'em. None, however, are mind-altering, which is the problem.
Dan
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Dan, you don't need to alter your mind. As for me, I've always felt that a terrible mind is a thing to waste.
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If it was not for the voices in my head .I would never have any good ideas.
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After having a cousin of mine working at a waste treatment plant (which he said was a Subaru job...), we came up with:
Waste is a terrible thing to mind...
Jeff
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The H1 500cc Kawasaki was impressive in its day, but they were expensive and labor intensive to run and not very powerful by today's standards. I know this from personal experience. One of the modern water cooled 600 four cylinder motors would be a better choice.
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I'm up for ideas about a 500cc motor, remember, this is going into a K/GL to be run here on the East Coast, and if I can afford it, I might try to make a trip to Texas. Anyone ever destroke a 600cc to make 500cc's? How did that work? Any two strokes out there that are 500cc that would work in a Lakester?
Jeff
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You are into an interesting category.500cc two strokes are all gone to ATV type arrangements. The old Suzuki gamma engines are rare.You can look at them in museums. I have seen 350s Yamaha engines bored and stroked to 610 cc making 120 hp. A good Four stroke four cylinder inline four can do that all day.
Under 500 cc it is the dirt bike engines that are on top and both four and two stroke seem to have good power.
I thought you where going for a 15 cu in engine?
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I am, but I'm wanting to step up later on and go from L/GL to K/GL. Shoot, I might even break bad and move all the way up to J/GL, but that is going to be a few years down the road. Right now, going to stick with the Ninja 250 4 stroke and a Suzuki GT250 2 stoke engines, especially since I have 2 of the Ninja motors and one of the GT motors. Now if I could figure out what engine they are running in the Poison Arrow K/GL that allowed them to run 174.466 then I would try to get one of those. Anyone know what engine Jack is running in the Lakester?
Jeff
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What about a snowmobile engine? Those are commonly available from about 200 all the way up to 1200. I have gone 110 on frozen lakes on a stock 550, and I have been 130+ on a 680 race engine. I would think that those have a heck of a lot more "rolling" resistance and wind resistance than a lakester would.
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Only problem with the snowmobile engine is the lack of a transmission. Not really a big fan of the torque converters that they have after working with several people on Jr. Dragsters and Jr. Comp cars running the Yamaha R1 snowmobile engine. Get a lot of slip, and when you hit a bump, there goes your gearing.
Jeff
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how about both those 250 engines? Chain them together .That would be 60 hp and 500 cc. And the sound would be very cool. :-D
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H1 or H2 Kawi are not a good choice for a bike that has to run a mile or more. I drag raced an H2 and if it wasnt for duct tape after every 1/4 mile run we would have run out of parts. Just about had to sweep the track after every run to retrieve what fell off.
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Ya know, that is an idea since I do have two 250 motors sitting out in the storage building, wonder if it would be legal for a four wheeled Lakester though, know it would be legal for a two wheeled streamliner... Might have to get in touch with either Keith T. or Joe T. on this.
Joe: Was planning on putting the H1 motor in a Lakester, my fat rear end doesn't fit real good on a bike, looks like I'm trying to pass a two wheeled turd and the leathers make me sweat more that I normally do, and I sweat a lot, but I know what you mean about the duct tape. A buddy of mine has an old Paul Gast Pro Stock H2 motor on an old Margay enduro kart that he drag races exhibition with, and EVERY run we have to go through the kart and re-tighten all the nuts and bolts that the vibration has shaken loose. Blue Loctite works to a degree, but the best thing we found was to safety wire everything, and then put a dab of silicone sealer on them after they have been safety wired.
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A couple things that turned me off about the H1 (I learned to ride a motorcycle with an H1) Is it is an air cooled engine .That makes ducting a balance of drag vs cooling. The other is the press fit crank I guess you would have it welded but that is a thing to do .Where can you get parts when that one has us doing the kitty litter shuffle? You would have to buy a whole bike with a couple blown engines thrown in .( they all come that way used for some reason?) Even they are getting rare.
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On Bending PVC Pipe:
We use a PVC Heat Blanket for bending. They heat very evenly and can be used for 1/2"-3" pipe. They are not cheap (presently about $175 in McMaster) but any commercial or industrial electrician should have one. They are generally not used often so it might be a good idea to call in a favor.
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H2's have a slight less buzz than the H1's... but at 9,000 plus RPM's it ain't much differant.
One thing they both have in common,,, they smooth out for a second,, just before they blow up. !!! Been there done that.
Even so, I still love the old 2 Smoke triple Kawi's
Charles
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Slyonejr, If you want some H2 cranks and cases cheap or even a whole running H2 dragbike let me know, I am getting rid of mine.
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Don't dis my beloved H1s! I had two back in the day - but I left them stock and rode them on the road. Other than cleaning plugs on the '70 (the '71 seemed to hold up better) I never had an issue. I rode 'em hard on the street but I'm sure I never stressed them like a racer would. The '70 was red & white, the '71 was light/dark blue. If I found a NICE red and white '70 I might have to hold up a liquor store or something.
Dan
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Only problem with the snowmobile engine is the lack of a transmission. Not really a big fan of the torque converters that they have after working with several people on Jr. Dragsters and Jr. Comp cars running the Yamaha R1 snowmobile engine. Get a lot of slip, and when you hit a bump, there goes your gearing.
Jeff
Most of the sleds I have seen use a centrifugal clutch, and don't seem to have any issues with bumps.
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Most of the sleds I have seen use a centrifugal clutch, and don't seem to have any issues with bumps.
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If my memory is correct, I believe the 585 streamliner used a snowmobile drive [torque conveter] successfully.
Don
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Would love to see a pic of one of these Poly Vinyl Chassis!
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Ya know Lucky, I'd bet that a lot of people would like to see a PVC chassis, I know that I have taken several pictures of it as I have been going along, but everytime I try to post them, it keeps locking up my computer. Guess that I made them too big.
Small update on things, started tearing down the 2nd Ninja 250 motor that I have, found out a few things about it, and after talking to Eric on here, think I have a good idea of what I need to get and what I need to do to it. Planning on building one engine to "KILL" standards (and yes, I'll bring my own kitty litter) and keeping one stock. Going to put the stock engine in the Lakester first to get used to the car and figure out how to drive it, and to figure out how well my plans work. Then after running the car for a while, I'll install the "KILL" motor, and really go out and attack the record.
Things have been going slow on putting the actual chassis together, cut a bunch of tubing up, and went to start tacking it together, and of course, Murphy came up and bit me on the hindquarters. Seems my little MIG welder that I have had for years finally decided that it didn't want to work anymore, so now I'm taking donations to get a new (well, new to me) welder.
I do have a few questions though, I have been playing around with ideas for the front suspension, and I think that I am going to use a straight front axle, a couple of bellcranks, and a set of coil overs laid down, but what I am wondering is, How do you figure out the angles and lengths needed on the bellcrank to get about 1 1/2" to 2" of movement and still work with the coil overs? Got the rear suspension figured out pretty good, going to build a short swingarm and use a set of coil overs to dampen everything out. Any suggestions?
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I build models and scale them up to what I need. You could build a mock up and just sort it out. Or computer and a CAD program. Why a straight axle? I was thinking of using an independent suspension with disc brakes from an ATV . They are strong and cheep.
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I was thinking of using the straight front axle to put less into the airstream, less in the airstream = more aerodynamic, and as we know, pushing air is a lot harder than building horsepower, especially when I'm only looking at about 38 - 40 hp to begin with. Trying to keep this Lakester aerodynamic is one reason that I am not planning on using front brakes, just rear brakes mounted on a straight axle with two calipers on one disc with a separate line running from the master cylinder for each caliper, that way, if I lose one caliper, I have a backup. Also, since I'm thinking about moving up in class in a few years, plans are to put a parachute on this thing too. Don't think I'm gonna need it running the Ninja 250 motor though, but it is nice to have if things get real crazy.
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Looks like I am going to be spending a lot of time on both the lathe and the milling machine in the process of building the Lakester, but as someone told me in the Chat Room on Tuesday, "It wouldn't be as fun if you could just buy everything and have a car, if it was that easy, EVERYONE would have a couple of records" which is true. Gotten a lot of the parts in that I could buy, now I'm needing to finish welding the frame together and start attaching all the stuff that I need to it and making what I can. Still trying to make it to Maxton for the 1st event next year, might need some luck.
Been trying to find the formula that tells you how far away the sprockets are suppose to be from each other to ensure proper chain engagement, and I can't find it anywhere. Anyone have it or know where I can find it? Thanks!
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to close is worse than to far
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SlyOneJr, since you are only in Charlotte, are you coming to Maxton in September ?
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Yep, you would have to beat me away with a real big stick to keep me away from Maxton in September! Might bring the wife with me, depends on if she can get off of work. I know that I won't be able to make it in October, I'm helping out Cajun Kid at the Goodguys event at ZMax on that Friday night, then I have another friend that I am helping for the rest of the weekend. Hate that I'm going to miss that meet too, with the weather getting cooler, should be some great runs!
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Yep, you would have to beat me away with a real big stick to keep me away from Maxton in September! Might bring the wife with me, depends on if she can get off of work. I know that I won't be able to make it in October, I'm helping out Cajun Kid at the Goodguys event at ZMax on that Friday night, then I have another friend that I am helping for the rest of the weekend. Hate that I'm going to miss that meet too, with the weather getting cooler, should be some great runs!
Jeff anyway you could make it up to my shop in the next couple weeks ? I need an extra set of hands and eyeys for about a 3 hour project,,,,,a Friday evening, or Sat or Sun... food and Beer on me brother ....
PM me
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Jeff -
You up for volunteering at the September Maxton meet? We're a bit light on signed-up volunteers and we could use you.
Thanks
Dan Stokes
Volunteer Coordinator, ECTA