Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => Health, Welfare, and Passings => Topic started by: Seldom Seen Slim on June 09, 2010, 01:58:20 PM
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I recently got the following from Mel Bashore - and thought some of you might find it of interest. Here's a copy and paste of his email to me:
"I have just launched a new website devoted to paying tribute to and information about those racers who died while in pursuit of land speed records. I am adding landracing.com as a favorite link. I have researched over 30 LSR racers who died from the 1920s to the present. Each entry includes birth/death dates, age at death, location, event, biographical info, type of vehicle, video clips, photos of racer/car/grave, etc. I'd be honored to have you share this with your web readers. The link is: http://lsrdeaths.webs.com/
Mel Bashore
West Jordan, Utah"
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I am not sure we want all of this info. I have the history of SCTA incidents and others at the salt and lakes but we don't publish them. They are for record keeping in the assoc. only.If people want to go to his web site it's up to them.,
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You raise an interesting point, Glen. I don't want to be ghoulish, but I do want to post things that appear to be of interest to the land speed racing fraternity. I don't always careful edit and inspect what's sent to me. I'll do more of it, for sure.
But -- I'll leave this one up for a while and see if there's any interest or much activity. Then -- if not -- it'll go away.
Thanks for your attention, as always.
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I think it is a good thing. Cops have walls of honor to fallen comrades and we also have the Vietnam wall which does the same thing. Kudos to Mel for putting this together!!
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I looked at it and saw some information that was not correct however will not comment further about it..
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John,
I am sure if there is bad info Mel would want to know.
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It may be a bit macabre, it might even be a bit frightening to some, but it is a reality.
Some people dwell on this type of information and it may take them to a bad place.
Some people will undoubtedly have emotions drug to the forefront of their minds when reminded of these events.
It will cause some to take pause at what it is they are doing in LSR and reevaluate what they are willing to risk.
Others will see this as nothing more than a memorial for those that have chased their dream and lost their life in the process.
Good, bad or otherwise, there is some merit in seeing this information. Whether or not it is something that needs to be kept forever, I dare not make that choice on behalf of others. Those that lost someone close to them, probably will not like being reminded. Maybe in time, they may view it differently, each person deals with loss in a different manner and on a different time scale.
I take the intent of the author at face value, I believe he is looking to memorialize those that have lost their lives while chasing a dream. There are probably many lessons here to be learned, some internal evaluation of this information may tell someone something about themselves. Seeing how some people may comment on the subject may infuriate others.
SSS, I would suggest that you take the approach you have outlined, wait and see where it goes. I would recommend that at the first crass, disrespectful or otherwise socially unacceptable post, pull the plug on the thread or purge the thread and make it read-only.
Again, there is some merit in remembering those that have tried and paid the ultimate price. There is some merit in reminding people that it isn't just about going as fast as you can. Pay attention to what you are building, don't be stingy with safety, your life may depend on it. When in doubt, build it stronger, better, safer than is necessary, it may be the most important thing you ever do.
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Yes I am sure he would however maybe he should have done a better job looking up the facts or perhaps he did and was given incorrect info to begin with, if so then I am sure their is a good reason.
BBarn well thought out post :cheers:
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I think there are several notable omissions. I also think that sometimes such information is withheld to the detriment of the racing community.
I commend his efforts; I am sure he would welcome assistance in adding events and clarifying facts.
Shane
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I've just sent an email to Mel Bashore, the guy that sent the list/link to me, asking him to take a look at the various comments here and then contact those that have raised questions about omissions or errors. If he doesn't get around to it -- and I suggested he register as a member of the Forum to best be able to get in touch with any of you -- I'll ask him again - and might end up forwarding, through me, his queries and comments.
Thanks for the input, boys and girls. I appreciate it. Remember -- I'm trying to make landracing.com even more of an asset and repository of things pertinent to our avocation.
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Although none of us will ever know, those that have died may not object to being remembered in a considerate and truthful way.
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Although none of us will ever know, those that have died may not object to being remembered in a considerate and truthful way.
Their familys and friends may perhaps think otherwise...
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I looked at the site briefly and thought it was fine. As long as it is accurate and respectful. I also think if someone sees errors they should contact Mel with the correct info.
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Although none of us will ever know, those that have died may not object to being remembered in a considerate and truthful way.
Their familys and friends may perhaps think otherwise...
Have you looked at your signature lately John?? Which side of the argument do you want to be on?
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I respect the dead and let them live on in my memories, I also don't need to be on either side of an argument. :cheers:
I am sure Mel has countless hours pasting up what he found on the internet and writing "what he was told" however you should not always believe what you hear..
That's all.
John
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having been on many of the crashes first hand, Glen too, dont know if Iam (down) with the idea. :|
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I guess I'm OK with it if it is done tastefully but I'm having trouble getting past the title.
lsrdeaths.com Land Speed Racer Deaths.
so final, so morbid. Has a negative connotation for me.
Ok, we know they've passed on and we all have to deal with that. We can't change the truth and I think he's trying to base the entries on the truth as he knows it so far. My problem is that a lot of these people are icons of the sport. Innovative people that were outstanding and well known in the sport. It's hard for me to get that warm & fuzzy fond remembrance when every page is lsrdeaths. It just feels so tabloid to me. I'm ok with the concept I'd just like to see it addressed & titled in a softer manor. I'm not sure what the answer is & I suppose I could make some suggestions but as it is now I likely won't revisit. At the moment I'm happy about certain omissions as then I have no reason to go back.
Debbie
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I'm forming an opinion about the post of the site. Let's see if you folks agree that we'd be better off putting the link on the links page of this website. It'd be available to anyone that wants to see it - but not intrusively so.
Whaddaya tink?
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Not for me...that's my vote..we dont need a link for that unless Mel wants to be a site advertiser?
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Alright, I've put up a poll about the deaths website. It'll run for seven days -- and then I'll look at the results and do whatever the heck I please, whether the poll agrees with me or not.
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7 members including the founder of the death site..I don't think that is deserving of a link, why not just send a link to our insurance carriers and inform them that this is very risky if not a proven deadly hobby..if you have been close to a destroyed racing vehicle that the racer lost their life in/on and it is covered in blood and finding human tissue to clean up before the family/friends of the racer take it away you might have a different feeling towards that site. :|
Many more here have seen more than I however it is gruesome and I always try to remember them when they were on the right side of the dirt.
I voted first, can you guess what I chose.. :-)
BonnevilleRacing.com
Member
Male
Orlando Florida
ct
Member
Male - 61
astoria,oregon
norman
Member
Male - 62
Central PA
Bucko
Site Owner
Male
West Jordan, Utah
fvance
Member
Male - 66
Bulverde, tx
Fred Dannenfelzer
Member
Male - 72
Santa Barbara Ca.
RB Bob
Member
Male - 61
Salt Lake City
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Didn't go to the website, but voted not to have anything to do with it. When the thread started, first thought was that information posted there could be introduced into litigation against racing clubs or vehicle ownwers or sponsors somewhere down the line. Just my take, I'm still not going to the site so I've no history of acquiring information there. This morning I sent a rulebook to an engine builder near Seattle, with the idea of sponsoring a car by supplying the motor. I won't refer the engine builder to the site, either. Or anyone else.
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I would suggest that anyone who has an issue with the site suggest a way to improve it.
Do we agree that the full circumstances of a fatality in our sport should be published?
I personally do...because I feel that it may help avoid such a circumstance in the future. It also helps to eliminate "rumors". I've head a lot of those, and if I posted them I am certain there would be outrage (toward the respected individuals who spread them). At minimum, some very hurt feelings.
Shane
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i think warp has a good grasp on reality willie
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Agreed!
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OK, I read some of the stories. I have been around for 47 years and like John I find some bum data.
Too negative for me, I voted no on the poll. Let him have his site and let it get lost in Al Gore's Internet.
How about he writes a site about how our competitors are successful in their quest?
DW
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I am with John and DW. Its something we don't need. Tony
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It seems to me that the reason we have an investigating crew is to analyze the evidence. Their conclusions lead
to the protection of the racers and frequently result in rules changes. In my opinion, we do not need to know every
detail regarding the accident. The details have been assessed and if there is information in that conclusion that
leads to a safety ruling, it is not necessary that we know every detail.
I would hope that the accident investigating group never has another incident to analyse and knowing that that is unlikely,
let us devote our efforts to eliminating deadly possibilities in our build and racing decisions.
No doubt, the site was devised to lead us in that direction.
Apparently it hasn't been presented in a manner that is unacceptable. Thanks for the effort but don't be offended if few access
your presentation.
It's just a situation that is not palatable.
FREUD
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I voted to have nothing to do with it. I found it a very strange website with the vehicles at the top of each section having nothing to do with the events depicted. There was no information that might advance the cause of safety in that any sanctioned event requires more stringent safety precautions than were used in most of the accidents. Several of the fatalities didn't involve land speed vehicles or land speed events.
Pete
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Death is part of life. No one that I know of has made it out alive. Just because someone dies when pursuing his or hers passion does not mean they were not a successful racer. All it means is something went very wrong on that particular run, and they paid the ultimate price. Racing is dangerous, and I think a site like this reminds us that we are not bullet proof. That we need to double check our cars or bikes to make sure everything in our power is up to snuff, so we don't end up on the same site.
I like Shane's idea of suggesting a way to improve it, instead of knocking it.
Tom G.
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Today, Lionel Pitts and I visited a friend who is building a very fast car for Bonneville.
The purpose of this visit and two previous visits was to offer insight and advice from our experience and hopefully save him some grief.
As we were discussing safety equipment he asked why we need a hans device if we don't have front impact issues.
I did my best to explain how in our sport every accident is investigated and solutions are sought, even though very seldom is a car going to impact the ground head on.
Even though I sometimes wince when a new rule comes out, I salute our safety committee for being very pro-active as far as trying to keep us safe.
As far as a death website, I wouldn't have a problem with it as long as no details were offered other than perhaps a notation of "died as a result of injuries"
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Voted nothing to do with it. I feel the people that investigate adjust the rules accordingly.
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Thank you to our fellow "Real World Racers" for seeing what it is..what would be next a death pool?
J
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I think it is a good thing. Cops have walls of honor to fallen comrades and we also have the Vietnam wall which does the same thing. Kudos to Mel for putting this together!!
We already have this, pay your respects at Wendover Will next time your there and move on.
JA
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Another thing I find odd is on the 00-09 page there is a terrible picture of Vesco's Turbinator - the color is all off and why the heck is that picture there anyways. Don did not die on the salt. Gives the wrong impression.
Second, I believe that a portion of the photos were photo's I took during the events that eventually made it on other websites so original credits are incorrect. After the sale of the website, I transferred all ownership of the photos to Jon Wennerberg, so Jon W. may not know that he owns the photo credits to several of those photos, however I remember taking them.
Jon Amo
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Well it appears that he doesn't think Maxton is an LSR event....
OK here is my take and my vote. It is a topic on the forum... it is out there... it pertains to LSR.... so I leave the discussion on the forum, I don't add links, I probably will not visit the site again, once was enough for me....
OH, AND WE SHOULD ALL DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO STAY OFF OF IT AS A TOPIC!
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The title of the site is in bad taste and inappropriate, in my opinion two thumbs down.
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I agree that they name is in bad taste.
I will say that IMO I understand the rule book and implemented items are as a result of things learned directly from crash investigations however I would like the ability to know exactly why the rules and circumstances behind the rules.
Meaning.....
If 5- 1" lugs are necessary because during a spin(s) wheels were pulling off the lugs. I dont need to know what the result (injury-fatality) of the resulting spin but I do feel knowing that wheels pealing off is pertinent. Lets say someone has a very heavy vehicle, the knowledge that the lateral load can pull wheels could very well influence my decision on going larger then 1" or 6 or more lugs....but I dont know this....its not in the book.
The fact is that freedom of available information of cause and affect of incidents should be available for use by the people who are active participants should be available for the purpose of development of safer vehicles. Unfortunately this treads a fine line of information and tact.
I will say....
If I end up biting it in a crash I want EVERYONE to know what happened. If my injury can educate one future build then it wont be for nothing.
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Also.....
Say what you will, I learned about of a bunch of early racers I had never heard of before and learned a bit about them that I may of never known about without seeing the site.
I cant really say what my feelings about it are.
~JH
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I don't understand why there is a need for a website dedicated to such, is there a demand or just a morbid fascination by the site's owner?
However, I think it would show respect by renaming it a "Land Speed Racer's Memorial" website.
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Well it appears that he doesn't think Maxton is an LSR event....
OK here is my take and my vote. It is a topic on the forum... it is out there... it pertains to LSR.... so I leave the discussion on the forum, I don't add links, I probably will not visit the site again, once was enough for me....
OH, AND WE SHOULD ALL DO EVERYTHING WE CAN TO STAY OFF OF IT AS A TOPIC!
Shut up Stainless! :-D :-* Love you... but.... SHHHHHhhhhh........ 8-)
Done.
Debbie
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I would not use land speed racing deaths! I would be softer as Deb said.I would have no crash pics.vids.etc.This would have to be done all in good taste.
just my 2 cents worth
terry
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Has anyone thougt to ask people who have lost their loved ones what they think of all of this.
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Give this person credit he listens to what people have to say. He has changed the name of the site to
"Land Speed Racer Memorial".
I think it is great he is receptive to constructive criticism. I thank you for the change.
Tom G.
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I would like to see the photo of the Turbinator removed.
As Jon Amo said it does not belong on that site.
Don
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Keep voting in the poll, folks. As Tm said -- the fellow has changed the name of his site, and he's emailed me a few times to follow up. He also reports that he's had conversations with some of the folks on the Forum -- has been reading it per my suggestion -- and is trying to understand the various points presented to him. The gives him an extra point or two.
But the poll runs through this Thursday -- so if you haven't made up your mind -- keep voting. And no matter what -- I'm tickled that there are so many caring people on this Forum.
Jon
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I sure don't need my wife. kids, or sponcers looking at that crap.