Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => How To Section => Topic started by: octane on March 14, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
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...must be some on this brilliant forum.
Messed a bit with CO2 welding back some 20 years when I
was into cars. Never really mastered it.
Now I've decided to teach myself to TIG weld, mostly to do alu-welding
and boy'o'boy it's D I F F I C U L T !!
...but also very exiting to learn something new.
I have a cheapo Chinese set-up
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/1-2.jpg)
...and I've been introduced to the basics
by a friend who's really good at this stuff,
so now I just practise and practice which of cause is the only way to learn this magic art.
Fortunately I have free access to all the alu-scrap I want,
so plenty of opportunity to burn nasty holes in all kinds of ways
.-)
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/2-2.jpg)
..and after a few nights of hole-burning, contaminated electrodes, black smoke and learning my way around
dialing in the knobs on the machine,
I can do a decent seam ( is that the proper term in English ? )
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/3-1.jpg)
...but I still have lots of difficulties actually welding two pieces together.
Sometimes it goes kind'a OK:
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/4-1.jpg)
..but mostly I find it hard to achieve to get a pool ( dunno know the right term. What I mean is the spot of melted alu )
on BOTH pieces at the same time.
Any tricks, tips and advice from you experienced lot
are highly appreciated.
Thanks !
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Thanks for posting. Don't mean to hi jack the thread but have been practicing with OX -ACY the last week myself and almost at the same point [time at it and practice pile not quite as great]. Having similar problem, pool forms quick and then wants to burn through even quicker. Hopefully we can get a tip or 2, meanwhile back to practice, practice.
Ed
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Try building the heat slowly, moving the torch around on both pieces in the area of the start and then going forward only as fast as the material wants to puddle. Patience counts!!
Cleanliness is also really important. I usually use acetone to ensure that there is no oily film on the aluminum. It also helps to use a stainless wire brush to clean the area you're going to weld. This breaks up the oxide film on the surface. Don't use this wire brush for any other purpose.
Hope this helps.
Pete
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The transition from welding steel to aluminum is like going from drag racing to LSR. Kinda the same, but way different.
First thing to do is turn off that fan in the picture. It blows the shielding gas off the weld. Real welders just sweat.
When you weld steel you clean off the rust first. Rust is the inevitable reaction of oxygen with the steel. It happens over time. Chemically it isn't far from the base steel.
Aluminum does the same thing. The "rust" is aluminum oxide and it forms instantly when you make a cut. It is very different from the base metal. In the crystalline form it's called Corundum and is used as an abrasive. Super hard and it is the primary cause of your difficulty.
Cleanliness of the surface as noted is critical. Any oil or junk makes it worse.
The aluminum sheds heat faster than you think. The amount of heat needed is way more than your steel calibrated head is ready to believe.
The appearance on the surface doesn't tell you enough when you are learning. Cut the weld on a band saw and see how far your weld penetration is going.
The amount of heat you put into the center of the part will blow through the edges.
Practice, practice, practice.
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Tig, otherwise known as GTAW (gas tungsten arc welding), on aluminum can be a challenge. You should familiar with the basic setup which includes argon shield gas at a flow rate of around 15-20 cfh, a pure tungsten electrode, and AC current.
The next item is weldability of the alloy. 2XXX & 7XXX series alloys can be almost impossible to weld with any equipment you or I can afford. 3XXX, 5XXX, and 6XXX series are more easily welded, especially the 4XXX.
Cleanliness is vital. Remove all dirt, oils, corrosion, etc. Clean the area with a stainless steel wire brush that is used ONLY for aluminum to prevent cross contamination.
Depending on the capabilities of your power source and the thickness of your material, significant preheat may be needed. Aluminum has a high thermal conductivity so the heat you put into the are you are trying to weld quickly flows into the surrounding material. If the items are small enough you can put them in an oven and bring them to about 200 F.
At some point, probably sooner than later, you will experience weld solidification cracking. This is extremely common when attempting welds in 6061 without filler. Using a 4043 filler will help prevent this.
From the looks of your practice welds I would say you are coming along fine. It just takes lots and lots of practice. If you can find an experienced welder in your area to spend a couple hours with you they can save you many hours of frustration and lots of spent consumables and filler.
Check out Lincolns web site for some good info on welding aluminum.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/askus/weldingfaqs.asp (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/askus/weldingfaqs.asp)
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Octane;
Tig welding aluminum is difficult at first, but the key I have found is getting the material hot enough to form puddle, as you actually add/melt rod in the puddle. Try this. Concentrate on the puddle first, in other words, forget about adding rod to practice. Take a flat piece of aluminum, 1/8" to 3/16" thick, raised off the welding table a 1/2" or so. You will be amazed how much faster the puddle forms with the material off the table as the table acts like a heat sink. Once you form the puddle, move the torch in steady increments of approximately 3/16" or so. Once you've practiced concentrating on the puddle only, and you kind of have that movement down, try adding rod to puddle.
Hope this helps.
John
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Would anyone like to add a comment concerning the shape of the tip of the electrode Steel vs. Aluminum and how to form that shape ?
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Would anyone like to add a comment concerning the shape of the tip of the electrode Steel vs. Aluminum and how to form that shape ?
For steel the tip should be ground to a taper, usually with a slightly truncated (blunted) end. The angle varies but generally speaking as the included angle increases the weld penetration increases and the bead width decreases so a flat ended electrode will give the deepest penetration and a needle-like point the least. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it is in the way the electrons flow off the tungsten. Somewhere around a 45-60 degree included angle is a good starting place. Grinding should be done so the grind marks run towards the point, not perpendicular to it.
For aluminum the tungsten can should be balled by striking and arc on a piece of clean copper using DCEP current and a flat-end electrode. Increase current until the tungsten begins to melt and forms a ball no more than 1.5 times electrode diameter. I have used a piece of stainless in place of copper as well as a thick chunk of very clean aluminum. Don't forget to change back to AC after balling the tungsten. (I've never done that. :roll:)
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first how thick are you trying to weld? on my roadster the seat and the hood and other (big stuff) is 90 alu. I ball the electrode . but when I weld 50 alu I make the electrode sharp which makes the bead smaller. are you having a back crack at the end of the welds? (please no butt crack jokes) at the end of your pass slowly let off the heat. now if you are making shaped body panels I weld the back side of the pass, just by flowing it together. Just a few tips from 20 years of metal shaping good luck. www.millerwelds.com (bonneville in the search box)
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As long as we're hijacking -- I'm not a welder (nor much of anything else, but that's another story). So - my new '09 GMC pickup has factory aluminum 17" wheels. No steel wheels are available, either OEM or aftermarket. So if I want to mount Moon discs I either have to try the snap-in style (with which I've not had great luck - lost a few over the miles) or figure out who'll weld the steel Dzus button tabs to the aluminum wheels.
Any comments on how to get the tabs to stay put well enough that the things don't get bounced and flung off in the next 50,000 miles?
Oh, yeah -- I've tried the screw-on type, with drilled/tapped holes in the rim, and there was enough corrosion that the discs didn't stay on and the rims looked pretty crappy after only a few months. I'd rather the tabs/Dzus style.
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Would anyone like to add a comment concerning the shape of the tip of the electrode Steel vs. Aluminum and how to form that shape ?
I use an import inverter setup much like the one that you have, and have found that 2% Thoriated tungsten ground the same as for steel works very well. There is something a little different between the inverters and the old copper wound welders that makes this work. I find that with pure tungsten on the inverter the tip tends to melt and erode way too fast when welding aluminum, and will contaminate the weld.
I've only been TIG welding a short time myself, and can share a few things that seemed to work for me as far as getting started.
Make sure that your using an appropriate size electrode. The diameter of the electrode should be close to the thickness of the material that your welding. Using a large electrode on thin material is a recipe for disaster in my experience.
On getting your puddle started on both pieces, I find it best to have no space between the parts I'm joining. When starting your puddle, especially on thin material (less than .100") pick a spot a little ways in from the end of the joint to begin the weld so that the corners don't melt away and fall off. (Once the weld is started you can go back and finish it to the edge.) Put as much heat into it as you can as quickly as you can while still leaving yourself a little pedal to work with to get the puddle started. Watch the area closely, you will see the "texture" start to change in the area you are heating before it actually melts, if one side melts and the other isn't really close move your torch slightly to concentrate more heat on the side that isn't melting. Once one side is molten and the other is really close, simultaneously add a dab of filler rod and mash the pedal for a second to get extra heat to melt the filler to both sides and create the weld pool. This is one of the most critical parts to me, because in order to insure good penetration you must have full contact with the pool with both pieces that you are joining, but you have to develop the feel for it to not burn through. (Does that make any sense :?) When I was starting I burned through a lot, and practiced till I was able to pretty much keep it right on the edge of burning through for full penetration. If you don't go over the edge a few times, you'll never really know exactly where it is. :evil:
Once you have a pool started, it's a relatively easy matter to run the bead. I like to pulse the pedal, add a dab of filler, let off the pedal, then move a little and repeat. Just watch the pool carefully and add filler when the edges start to melt back. As your weld progresses the aluminum absorbs heat and it takes less amperage to continue the weld, keep an eye on this also and slowly back off on the pedal to maintain an even bead width. If you keep welding at the same amperage it took to start the bead, you will eventually blow a hole in it.
Ending the bead is another tough spot. I find it best to taper off the amps and slow my weld speed when I'm getting to the end of the weld. When I put my last spot of filler in I'll give a little extra pulse to the pedal and then let off completely and pull the torch away slowly in the direction of travel, rotating the head to keep the post flow gas on the weld as the machine ramps down. I find that this move helps to minimize pitting at the end of the bead.
Everything that was said above about cleanliness is spot on, don't get tempted to try to bypass any of it, it will not be good. In fact, if you've cleaned your metal, and have to leave it for some reason for more than an hour or so, clean it again before trying to weld, wire brush and all. Bare clean aluminum starts oxidizing instantly. I know you machine parts, just think how dull that beautiful shiny freshly machined surface looks 1/2 hour after you're done.
IMPORTANT SAFETY WARNING>
Use ONLY acetone or alcohol to clean the metal. DO NOT use brake cleaners or other shop chemicals ever, as they may have nasty reactions with heat and atmosphere and try to kill you. Make sure that whatever you use to clean is completely evaporated and the container is well away from the welding area before striking an arc so that you don't end up on fire.
The main thing is to practice, practice, practice. When you think it looks good, cut it and look inside the weld. Bend the parts you've welded and then cut them to see how they hold together, and make sure you're comfortable with it.
I always viewed welding as an evil necessity until I started TIG welding. Now it's my Zen place and something that I absolutely love to do. The total control and concentration needed to do good work drives everything else from my mind like nothing else I've ever found. It's better than recreational medication, LOL.
Another thing that I highly recommend is to get a water cooled torch if you're planning on doing a lot of aluminum. It takes a lot of amps and the torch can get very hot in the hand quickly. It really sucks having to stop in the middle of a good bead because your torch is about to melt in your hand. I bought a water cooled torch for about $150 and built my own cooler from a 5 gallon plastic bucket, a small pond pump, and some fittings from the welding supply shop for less than $100. It makes all the difference in the world and is the best thing since sliced bread in shirt pockets. :-P
It looks like your off to a good start, and I hope some of what I've put up here helps. Like I said at the start, this is what works for me, your mileage may vary and it seems that everyone develops their own style and technique over time. Just remember to relax and enjoy it and have fun. :cheers:
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As long as we're hijacking -- I'm not a welder (nor much of anything else, but that's another story). So - my new '09 GMC pickup has factory aluminum 17" wheels. No steel wheels are available, either OEM or aftermarket. So if I want to mount Moon discs I either have to try the snap-in style (with which I've not had great luck - lost a few over the miles) or figure out who'll weld the steel Dzus button tabs to the aluminum wheels.
Any comments on how to get the tabs to stay put well enough that the things don't get bounced and flung off in the next 50,000 miles?
Oh, yeah -- I've tried the screw-on type, with drilled/tapped holes in the rim, and there was enough corrosion that the discs didn't stay on and the rims looked pretty crappy after only a few months. I'd rather the tabs/Dzus style.
Uhh, aluminum tabs??? :cheers:
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Nope, although a good idea. The tabs are supplied by Moon -- and are steel.
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Nope, although a good idea. The tabs are supplied by Moon -- and are steel.
I understand that, but it shouldn't be all that big a deal to make new ones from aluminum that would be weldable to the rims. The Dzus retainers and fasteners are easy enough to find. You'd want to make them thicker than the steel ones, so you'd need to get longer fasteners. :cheers:
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slim, get the alu tabs and I will put them on for you. make sure you dismount the tires first it will save you $ on shipping
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Mike:
Thanks for the offer, but I don't have spare wheels -- so I'd be without the truck for the duration of the job. And where do you suggest I get the aluminum tabs? I'm pretty sure Moon doesn't sell them (although I haven't looked and now will do so).
Sunny and 55F here in Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
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Seems to me you could pop-rivet a steel Dzus base onto an aluminum bracket which could be welded to the wheel. I ain't done it, tho.
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Thank you very much all of you for taking the time to help me here !
I'd like to comment a few of the posts and ask a few silly questions.
( To those whose post I do not comment: it's not that I'm not listening to your good advise,
and again: thanks for helping me here )
The transition from welding steel to aluminum is like going from drag racing to LSR. Kinda the same, but way different.
Well, in my case , never having really mastered any welding technique,
is more like going from riding a bicycle to racing for a LSR
.-)
First thing to do is turn off that fan in the picture. It blows the shielding gas off the weld. Real welders just sweat.
Got'ya!...I only put it there as I was warned about the harmful fumes from the welding in general
and the radioactive electrode in particular.
BWT being new to this stuff, the first night I didn't pay attention to the fact that my shirt wasn't
buttoned up all the way.
I did next morning..didn't I !
I now have a glowing red triangle right where the shirt was open.
When you weld steel you clean off the rust first. Rust is the inevitable reaction of oxygen with the steel. It happens over time. Chemically it isn't far from the base steel.
Aluminum does the same thing. The "rust" is aluminum oxide and it forms instantly when you make a cut. It is very different from the base metal. In the crystalline form it's called Corundum and is used as an abrasive. Super hard and it is the primary cause of your difficulty.
Cleanliness of the surface as noted is critical. Any oil or junk makes it worse.
The aluminum sheds heat faster than you think. The amount of heat needed is way more than your steel calibrated head is ready to believe.
The appearance on the surface doesn't tell you enough when you are learning.
Got'ya !
Cut the weld on a band saw and see how far your weld penetration is going.
Brilliant. I'll do that
Practice, practice, practice.
Yes, yes, yes
.-)
-
Tig, otherwise known as GTAW (gas tungsten arc welding), on aluminum can be a challenge. You should familiar with the basic setup which includes argon shield gas at a flow rate of around 15-20 cfh, a pure tungsten electrode, and AC current.
OK,
..got the argon currently set at a flow rate of 9 liters/hour which is what I was advised to set it at
( That's around 0.3 cubic feet ...erh...something's wrong here .
[EDIT : ] Wait a minute ; must be 0.3cf/minute = ( 0.3 x 60= ) 18 cfh)
...got the pure tungsten electrode ( the radioactive type, marked red )
...got the ac (/dc) current
The next item is weldability of the alloy. 2XXX & 7XXX series alloys can be almost impossible to weld with any equipment you or I can afford. 3XXX, 5XXX, and 6XXX series are more easily welded, especially the 4XXX.
Don't really know about the alu I'm practicing on, except it's from a place I cooperate with
and I've been out there with my welding equipment and spend some time with the welder in charge
who helped me and gave me advise.
Cleanliness is vital. Remove all dirt, oils, corrosion, etc. Clean the area with a stainless steel wire brush that is used ONLY for aluminum to prevent cross contamination.
Depending on the capabilities of your power source and the thickness of your material, significant preheat may be needed. Aluminum has a high thermal conductivity so the heat you put into the are you are trying to weld quickly flows into the surrounding material. If the items are small enough you can put them in an oven and bring them to about 200 F.
At some point, probably sooner than later, you will experience weld solidification cracking. This is extremely common when attempting welds in 6061 without filler. Using a 4043 filler will help prevent this...
Dunno what 4043 means. This is the type of filler I use.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/filler.jpg)
I do have other types for welding stainless steel and metal ( haven't tried it yet )
I do know that it works well on the alu I use, as I saw the above mentioned welder
using my equipment and filler, when he showed me how to set up a good weld.
From the looks of your practice welds I would say you are coming along fine.
Thank you!
It just takes lots and lots of practice. If you can find an experienced welder in your area to spend a couple hours with you they can save you many hours of frustration and lots of spent consumables and filler.
I did spend time with a friend who does excellent "small" stuff, like thin alu-sheet welding
and the above mentioned guy who does "big" stuff like alu-construction work.
But in a way it's like asking a guy "How does one ride a bicycle" ?
One can watch but:
Practice.
Check out Lincolns web site for some good info on welding aluminum.
http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/askus/weldingfaqs.asp (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/askus/weldingfaqs.asp)
Thanks. Will do !
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Would anyone like to add a comment concerning the shape of the tip of the electrode Steel vs. Aluminum and how to form that shape ?
For steel the tip should be ground to a taper, usually with a slightly truncated (blunted) end. The angle varies but generally speaking as the included angle increases the weld penetration increases and the bead width decreases so a flat ended electrode will give the deepest penetration and a needle-like point the least. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but it is in the way the electrons flow off the tungsten. Somewhere around a 45-60 degree included angle is a good starting place. Grinding should be done so the grind marks run towards the point, not perpendicular to it.
Ahhh, my friend told me that, but he was refering to alu-welding , where as the other guy who does
"big" alu constructions told me not to taper when welding alu,
and none of them told me about the trick you mention below,
about ball'ing it.
Thanks. I'll try that!
For aluminum the tungsten can should be balled by striking and arc on a piece of clean copper using DCEP current and a flat-end electrode. Increase current until the tungsten begins to melt and forms a ball no more than 1.5 times electrode diameter. I have used a piece of stainless in place of copper as well as a thick chunk of very clean aluminum. Don't forget to change back to AC after balling the tungsten. (I've never done that. :roll:)
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first how thick are you trying to weld?
For now I'm doing 3-4-5 milimeters.
basically I want to be able to fabricate brackets etc. for my bike.
on my roadster the seat and the hood and other (big stuff) is 90 alu. I ball the electrode . but when I weld 50 alu I make the electrode sharp which makes the bead smaller. are you having a back crack at the end of the welds? (please no butt crack jokes) at the end of your pass slowly let off the heat. now if you are making shaped body panels I weld the back side of the pass, just by flowing it together. Just a few tips from 20 years of metal shaping good luck. www.millerwelds.com (bonneville in the search box)
Good advise. Thanks.
I'm not sure what "ball cracks" are but if it's something similar to something that resembles a buth*le;
then, Yes!
.-)
-
Would anyone like to add a comment concerning the shape of the tip of the electrode Steel vs. Aluminum and how to form that shape ?
I use an import inverter setup much like the one that you have, and have found that 2% Thoriated tungsten ground the same as for steel works very well. There is something a little different between the inverters and the old copper wound welders that makes this work. I find that with pure tungsten on the inverter the tip tends to melt and erode way too fast when welding aluminum, and will contaminate the weld.
I've only been TIG welding a short time myself, and can share a few things that seemed to work for me as far as getting started.
Make sure that your using an appropriate size electrode. The diameter of the electrode should be close to the thickness of the material that your welding. Using a large electrode on thin material is a recipe for disaster in my experience.
On getting your puddle started on both pieces, I find it best to have no space between the parts I'm joining. When starting your puddle, especially on thin material (less than .100") pick a spot a little ways in from the end of the joint to begin the weld so that the corners don't melt away and fall off. (Once the weld is started you can go back and finish it to the edge.) Put as much heat into it as you can as quickly as you can while still leaving yourself a little pedal to work with to get the puddle started. Watch the area closely, you will see the "texture" start to change in the area you are heating before it actually melts, if one side melts and the other isn't really close move your torch slightly to concentrate more heat on the side that isn't melting. Once one side is molten and the other is really close, simultaneously add a dab of filler rod and mash the pedal for a second to get extra heat to melt the filler to both sides and create the weld pool. This is one of the most critical parts to me, because in order to insure good penetration you must have full contact with the pool with both pieces that you are joining, but you have to develop the feel for it to not burn through. (Does that make any sense :?) When I was starting I burned through a lot, and practiced till I was able to pretty much keep it right on the edge of burning through for full penetration. If you don't go over the edge a few times, you'll never really know exactly where it is. :evil:
Once you have a pool started, it's a relatively easy matter to run the bead. I like to pulse the pedal, add a dab of filler, let off the pedal, then move a little and repeat. Just watch the pool carefully and add filler when the edges start to melt back. As your weld progresses the aluminum absorbs heat and it takes less amperage to continue the weld, keep an eye on this also and slowly back off on the pedal to maintain an even bead width. If you keep welding at the same amperage it took to start the bead, you will eventually blow a hole in it.
Ending the bead is another tough spot. I find it best to taper off the amps and slow my weld speed when I'm getting to the end of the weld. When I put my last spot of filler in I'll give a little extra pulse to the pedal and then let off completely and pull the torch away slowly in the direction of travel, rotating the head to keep the post flow gas on the weld as the machine ramps down. I find that this move helps to minimize pitting at the end of the bead.
Everything that was said above about cleanliness is spot on, don't get tempted to try to bypass any of it, it will not be good. In fact, if you've cleaned your metal, and have to leave it for some reason for more than an hour or so, clean it again before trying to weld, wire brush and all. Bare clean aluminum starts oxidizing instantly. I know you machine parts, just think how dull that beautiful shiny freshly machined surface looks 1/2 hour after you're done.
IMPORTANT SAFETY WARNING>
Use ONLY acetone or alcohol to clean the metal. DO NOT use brake cleaners or other shop chemicals ever, as they may have nasty reactions with heat and atmosphere and try to kill you. Make sure that whatever you use to clean is completely evaporated and the container is well away from the welding area before striking an arc so that you don't end up on fire.
The main thing is to practice, practice, practice. When you think it looks good, cut it and look inside the weld. Bend the parts you've welded and then cut them to see how they hold together, and make sure you're comfortable with it.
I always viewed welding as an evil necessity until I started TIG welding. Now it's my Zen place and something that I absolutely love to do. The total control and concentration needed to do good work drives everything else from my mind like nothing else I've ever found. It's better than recreational medication, LOL.
Another thing that I highly recommend is to get a water cooled torch if you're planning on doing a lot of aluminum. It takes a lot of amps and the torch can get very hot in the hand quickly. It really sucks having to stop in the middle of a good bead because your torch is about to melt in your hand. I bought a water cooled torch for about $150 and built my own cooler from a 5 gallon plastic bucket, a small pond pump, and some fittings from the welding supply shop for less than $100. It makes all the difference in the world and is the best thing since sliced bread in shirt pockets. :-P
It looks like your off to a good start, and I hope some of what I've put up here helps. Like I said at the start, this is what works for me, your mileage may vary and it seems that everyone develops their own style and technique over time. Just remember to relax and enjoy it and have fun. :cheers:
Thank you Whizz, for this great amount of good advise !!! Absolutely brilliant.
Yes, it does help.
I'll try to digest it tomorrow when I've picked up a new bottle of argon
and I'm back to welding again.
A couple of observations:
Yes you're right; when doing this stuff the surrounding world disappears
as one is so totally focused and concentrated.
I don't even think about unpaid back-taxes
.-)
It's really a great feeling and I thoroughly enjoy trying to learn a new skill.
Learning is humbling and invigoration at the same time.
One point I don't quite get:
The diameter of the electrode should be close to the thickness of the material that your welding...
That would require one giant electrode to weld the 6mm (1/4 inch) construction alu
they weld at the place I mentioned above.
Again: thank you kindly all, for taking your time to share your experience
to help me here !!!!!!!!
-
Ok, a couple of things I noticed. The first is your tungsten identification. The red tungsten is actually 2% Thoriated. The thorium is slightly radioactive, but unless you are using it 12 hours a day the radiation level is insignificant. It is used for welding with DC current on steel, the thorium enhancing arc initiation and stabilization. What you want to use for aluminum is the green since you unit most likely has a high frequency arc stabilization built in.
The second thing is the filler rod. It is marked "AlMg5", which we can assume is 5356. 4043 has far less magnesium than that, being alloyed primarily with silocon. 5356 and 4043 are the two most popular fillers for aluminum. 4043 has the widest range of use, but 5356 is the one to use if the parts are to be anodized after welding.
Now quit reading this and get back to practice! :-D
-
SSS,
Get some .090 .o .100 Alum and make new Dzus tabs.. then you can weld TIG weld them to the new trucks alum wheels,,, you may need a little longe Dzus button...
See you in April...
PS... the Moon hub cap style...snap on ones.. look like crap and fly off too.. :cheers:
Charles
-
Ok, a couple of things I noticed. The first is your tungsten identification. The red tungsten is actually 2% Thoriated. The thorium is slightly radioactive, but unless you are using it 12 hours a day the radiation level is insignificant. It is used for welding with DC current on steel, the thorium enhancing arc initiation and stabilization. What you want to use for aluminum is the green since you unit most likely has a high frequency arc stabilization built in.
The second thing is the filler rod. It is marked "AlMg5", which we can assume is 5356. 4043 has far less magnesium than that, being alloyed primarily with silocon. 5356 and 4043 are the two most popular fillers for aluminum. 4043 has the widest range of use, but 5356 is the one to use if the parts are to be anodized after welding.
Now quit reading this and get back to practice! :-D
I'm not reading this and I'm not responding to this p..............................
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... What you want to use for aluminum is the green
Yep, that's what my friend who does the "fine" alu welding told me,
but the guy at the welding exuipment sales place told me to use the 'red' one.
Confused.
since you unit most likely has a high frequency arc stabilization built in.
Dunno.
Does it ?
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/equip.jpg)
Still more than slightly confused about the knobs here,
as the instructions that came with the equipment are ridiculously hard to understand.
Some drug-induced weird translation from Chines to English, and it seams that
there a no common way that the manufacturers use for describing the functions on the welding equipment.
The second thing is the filler rod. It is marked "AlMg5", which we can assume is 5356. 4043 has far less magnesium than that, being alloyed primarily with silocon. 5356 and 4043 are the two most popular fillers for aluminum. 4043 has the widest range of use, but 5356 is the one to use if the parts are to be anodized after welding. ...
Mmmmmm: I'm going to get a new bottle of argon tomorrow so I ask for some 4043 and see how it works.
Any drawback in using 5356 ?
Thank you for your patience with this here newbie !!!!!
Much appriciated.
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I didn't notice a high freq switch on your control panel, but I'm pretty sure it has the high freq built in. Most new machines do, esp. the inverter units.
5356 gives slightly less penetration than 4043 due to it's higher melting temperature. Other than that it has not issues.
4043 gives a bit better penetration, welds a tad easier, and gives a little bit stronger weld in the popular 6xxxx aluminums, such as the evr popular 6061, but isn't recommended for high magnesium content (5xxx series) aluminums and it looks like crap when anodized.
Another thing to remember when welding aluminum: If the base metal is hardened either by heat treatment (precipitation hardening) or strain hardening, the hardening will be lost in the weld area and the only way to return it is to reharden the entire piece.
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As long as we're hijacking -- I'm not a welder (nor much of anything else, but that's another story). So - my new '09 GMC pickup has factory aluminum 17" wheels. No steel wheels are available, either OEM or aftermarket. So if I want to mount Moon discs I either have to try the snap-in style (with which I've not had great luck - lost a few over the miles) or figure out who'll weld the steel Dzus button tabs to the aluminum wheels.
Any comments on how to get the tabs to stay put well enough that the things don't get bounced and flung off in the next 50,000 miles?
Oh, yeah -- I've tried the screw-on type, with drilled/tapped holes in the rim, and there was enough corrosion that the discs didn't stay on and the rims looked pretty crappy after only a few months. I'd rather the tabs/Dzus style.
Pete Richardson put moon discs onto his aluminum wheels, so I emailed him:
Are you running the discs over your aluminum wheels? If so, how did you attach the dzus fastener tabs??
Yes . I got tabs from Huff wheels and had them weilded on the aluminum wheels . I`m in Mex,. I can verify all when I get back the 1st part of April
Later Pete
I suspect Huff Wheels has nothing to do with VW's (Google'd), but is probably:
Ken Huff Racing Wheels — Land Speed Record racing wheels
10827 Larrylyn Drive
Whittier, CA 90603
(310) 943-6877
Mike
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread. :mrgreen:
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... What you want to use for aluminum is the green
Yep, that's what my friend who does the "fine" alu welding told me,
but the guy at the welding exuipment sales place told me to use the 'red' one.
Confused.
since you unit most likely has a high frequency arc stabilization built in.
Dunno.
Does it ?
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/equip.jpg)
Still more than slightly confused about the knobs here,
as the instructions that came with the equipment are ridiculously hard to understand.
Some drug-induced weird translation from Chines to English, and it seams that
there a no common way that the manufacturers use for describing the functions on the welding equipment.
The second thing is the filler rod. It is marked "AlMg5", which we can assume is 5356. 4043 has far less magnesium than that, being alloyed primarily with silocon. 5356 and 4043 are the two most popular fillers for aluminum. 4043 has the widest range of use, but 5356 is the one to use if the parts are to be anodized after welding. ...
Mmmmmm: I'm going to get a new bottle of argon tomorrow so I ask for some 4043 and see how it works.
Any drawback in using 5356 ?
Thank you for your patience with this here newbie !!!!!
Much appriciated.
OK, a clarification of a couple of things. The basic rule on tungsten diameter that I go by is not to weld with an electrode much larger than the thickness of the material that I'm welding. I generally use 1/16, 3/32, and 1/8 electrodes. I will weld up to 5/16 thick material from time to time with the 1/8 electrode, using multiple passes. Just don't try to weld .040 material with a 1/8 electrode as you will fight blowing holes in it.
Yes, your welder has high frequency. In DC mode is only works to start the arc, in AC mode it is on full time. It is an automatic feature of the machine and doesn't have a separate switch.
As far as what type of tungsten to use, with older machines if you were welding aluminum you needed to use pure tungsten (green end). With the newer inverter based machines that has changed. You can still use the pure, but the thoriated will keep a point on it welding AC with an inverter machine and allow you better control of where your arc is hitting the work. The square wave effect of the inverter machine makes this possible. With the traditional sine wave of the old machines thoriated would blow apart if you tried to use it with AC. I only use thoriated now, on everything I weld, and it works great. Makes buying supplies easier too. Most welders who learned the trade before inverter machines became common would not dream of using anything but green on aluminum, but technology sometimes changes things. :-D
My machine is similar to yours, but doesn't have all the adjustments that you have. Maybe I can explain some of them a little bit to help.
Top left knob, PRE-FLOW TIME. Use this to adjust the amount of time that your argon flows after you hit the pedal and before the arc starts. Generally you don't need much more than a second or less of pre-flow, any more and you're wasting gas.
Top row, next one to the right, PEAK CURRENT. This controls the maximum amperage available when the pedal is mashed all the way. I generally leave mine set to the maximum, and control it with the pedal, unless I'm welding something very thin.
Top row, third from left, BASIC CURRENT. This is used in conjunction with the pulse feature. It should be set to a lower level than the PEAK CURRENT knob. (more about pulse later)
Top row, far right, DOWN SLOPE. This controls how much time the machine takes to decrease welding current to zero when you let off the pedal. I usually keep mine set at zero and use the pedal to control it.
Bottom row, left, ARC FORCE. I don't have this adjustment and am not quite sure what it would do to be honest. It may be an adjustment for the high frequency stabilization to allow you to use less in sensitive situations. I do know that some Miller and Lincoln square wave inverter machines have such an adjustment that allows welding without any high frequency at all when around computers and other equipment that may be damaged by it.
Bottom row, second from left, PULSE FREQUENCY. This is control for the built in pulse feature, which mimics pumping the pedal to turn the amperage up and down while welding. The benefit is that the machine is able to do it with perfect timing, and supposedly make more consistent welds. Frequency is just what it sounds like, how may times a minute or second it goes from peak to base current.
Bottom row, third from left, PULSE DUTY. This controls the percentage of time during the pulse cycle that the amperage is at maximum. I believe that the higher the knob is set the more time it will be at max, but experiment with it to see for yourself if you want to use the pulse feature.
Bottom row, fourth from left, CLEAN AREA WIDTH. This controls the percentage of time that the AC welding current is in electrode positive or electrode negative portion of the sine wave. One of the big advantages of inverter welders is that the circuitry can control the sine wave to make it asymetrical. This can be a big advantage in some instances, such as welding a dirty casting (you would want to set it so that you got more cleaning action, the electrons flowing from the metal toward the electrode carry impurities with them to the top of the pool), or getting extra penetration in very clean material (more electrons flowing from the electrode to the material makes more heat into the work.) Most of the time the middle position will be where you want to be, leave it set there while learning.
Bottom row, right, GAS AFTER FLOW. This controls how long the argon flows after the current stops. For aluminum, you want afterflow to keep the weld pool shielded until it cools enough that atmospheric gasses won't contaminate it. I leave mine set to max when welding aluminum. It uses more gas but makes better welds with less pitting at the end of the bead.
It looks like you've got the switches figured out. I'd recommend leaving the Pulse feature turned off while you're learning the basic technique. Most welders I know don't use it even if their machines have it.
This is how I understand it and what works for me, like I said before, your mileage may vary. 8-)
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TIG welding is great and has its place for fabrication. However for a lot of aluminum fabrication and repairs I just use the aluminum brazing/soldering rods like Muggyweld and others sell. No need to haul out my TIG welder and waste gas and electricity. All it takes is a MAPP torch or Oxyacetelyne torch. And there is not too much danger of ruining the original part, either. Just recently I repaired a broken cast Al motorcycle footpeg. There was no way I would even attempt to TIG it, but it soldered up real well and I could jump on it and it did not break.
Don
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TIG welding is great and has its place for fabrication. However for a lot of aluminum fabrication and repairs I just use the aluminum brazing/soldering rods like Muggyweld and others sell. No need to haul out my TIG welder and waste gas and electricity. All it takes is a MAPP torch or Oxyacetelyne torch. And there is not too much danger of ruining the original part, either. Just recently I repaired a broken cast Al motorcycle footpeg. There was no way I would even attempt to TIG it, but it soldered up real well and I could jump on it and it did not break.
Don
That stuff definitely has it's place for the odd emergency fix and it works great on pot metal. I wouldn't recommend it for fabrication or any kind of permanent structural fix though. Recently a friend brought over a primary cover to see if I could do a better repair on a previous fix that had cracked out again. It had been repaired with that solder stuff a couple of years ago but over time gave up right at the original crack. I ended up having to grind out a LOT of metal to get rid of it before it would take weld. Every time I thought I had it clean enough more would show up and ruin the weld as soon as I started. I flows out real good when you put it on and gets everywhere in the metal, it just doesn't stand up to vibration and stress like a real weld. :roll:
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Wow---how great is this ---post from 2 continents, 3 countries, and untold US states just trying to help an unknown LSR buddy out!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wow---how great is this ---post from 2 continents, 3 countries, and untold US states just trying to help an unknown LSR buddy out!!!!!!!!!!!!
And THAT is the heart and soul of LSR!! I love my racers!!! :-D
Lynda
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The Arc Force knob is used mainly when stick welding to increase the current (amperage) when the voltage drops below a certain level, somewhere around 20 volts, to help prevent the electrode form sticking to the work. It goes back to the principle that arc length and voltage are directly related. The longer the arc length, the higher the voltage needed to overcome the arc gap. In some instances a welder using a stick needs to "push" the rod into the joint to lay a root pass, which drops the arc length and the voltage. If the voltage drops too low the arc can be extingushed and the rod will stick, resulting in lots of profanity and spilled beer...all bad. So to prevent sticking electrodes, and spilled beer, an Arc Force adjustment was added to give the operator a way to make those highly confined welds a bit easier. I've never had much use for it myself (arc force knob, that is. I always have use for beer) but I know at least one fella who loves it. But he welds mostly pipe in often very confined areas.
I agree that you can use the 2% thoriated on aluminum. I've done that myself without adverse effects. The only downside i can think of is it seemed to not stay balled as well, especially when the tungsten diameter is used at the upper end of it's current range. If the ball tends to split, toss in a greeny and give it a try. BTW, thoriated tungsten will carry 15-20% more current than a pure tungsten of the same diameter.
The others are right in trying to reduce the amount of consumables. It can get crazy. The normal range of tungsten I keep on hand is 1/16, 3/32, and 1/8. To keep all three sizes in two compositions would be to dang expensive.
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Wow---how great is this ---post from 2 continents, 3 countries, and untold US states just trying to help an unknown LSR buddy out!!!!!!!!!!!!
..and this here (yet to become-) LSR buddy
is immensely grateful
And THAT is the heart and soul of LSR!!
!!!!
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.....
OK, a clarification of a couple of things...................................
You mean; a LOT of things.
Fantastic !
...I'll go through it all later today when I've picked up a new bottle og argon,
and have time to run some welding tests.
Thanks Whizz !
BTW ; guess we must have ran into one an-others frame of vision
at BUB back in 2008.
I took some pictures of your bike ( and you, I guess) :
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_1553.jpg)
350 Triumph engine..right ?
Hope to see you there this year.
The Arc Force knob is used mainly when stick welding .......
OK thanks. I'll probably be back with more questions on stick welding
when I get around to trying that feature.
I mentioned above, this place with which I cooperate,
that do "big" alu-stuff.
Right now they a building a 12 meter ( close to 40 feet) -diameter "globe"
made of circles that together form a 'grid'-globe.
Inside this sits a smaller 'globe', and inside that sits a stage
for sword fighting. It's for an outdoor theater play
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/CIMG4509.jpg)
They have a real nice selection of materials, from which they let me pick what I need. ( This is just part of it)
Nice!
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/CIMG4508.jpg)
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Looks like just about the right amount of floor space for a 'liner project. :-D
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LOL, yeah but I'm afraid the only thing on wheels they've build
is this cargo-carrying-electric-engined-scooter-or-something prototype.
Might interest you as I see you are part of a team running an electric engined vehicle.
Basically they chopped a cheapo Chinese electric engined scooter for parts:
engine, batteries, controller etc.
Build a new frame and had the bodywork made up by 3-D printing in plastics ( aMAzing technique , by the way )
( ABS-plastic, I think it was )
It actually ran, but not at record breaking speed, that's for sure:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/DSC_0376.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/DSC_0377.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/DSC_0379.jpg)
...then again; has anyone ever set a record on such a thing ?!
.-)
OK OK OK ....I'll go back to practicing NOW! Got the argon. Ordered a pedal-control thingy.
From what you tell me here it sound like a good thing to have.
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Jon, Let me know how that dis-silmilar metals in the Michigan salt spray thingie works out for you :evil:Jerry
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Ooops. Double-posting
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Jerry, I don't run the discs in the winter months, so there's not that much salt getting on them up here. There's plenty of it when we're in Wendover, though. I understand there's likely to be a hassle -- so do what I can in advance, then clean things now and then. What else to do?
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A guy could have some serious fun in that shop.
-
.....
OK, a clarification of a couple of things...................................
You mean; a LOT of things.
Fantastic !
...I'll go through it all later today when I've picked up a new bottle og argon,
and have time to run some welding tests.
Thanks Whizz !
BTW ; guess we must have ran into one an-others frame of vision
at BUB back in 2008.
I took some pictures of your bike ( and you, I guess) :
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq252/octane98bonneville/DSC_1553.jpg)
350 Triumph engine..right ?
Hope to see you there this year.
Yep, that's me in the panda suit. :-D
The engine is a T250 Woodsman, it's really just a rebadged BSA B25. We've got oversized valves and big cam, Carillo rod, high compression piston, modified case breathing, and poorly selected carb. This year I'm working to get the carburation issue resolved so it will run right, as well as doing some work to the oiling system to get better lubrication to the cylinder walls. I've had repeated problems wiping out pistons due to a combination of too little lube and running lean. Hopefully I'll get it sorted for this year.
I'm also building a complete new chassis to try something a little different aerodynamically. Last year I bumped my record by over 20MPH, to right at 75, running in 3rd gear since I couldn't get it to pull in 4th due to intake reversion and jetting problems. I'm working on all those issued right now, as well as thinking up a way to put electric start on it since the new frame and fairing is going to make kick starting a real problem.
I'll see ya on the salt, look us up at the Speed Team Doo compound if I don't find you first. :cheers:
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Spend a couple of hours last night practicing.
Got to a point where I can ( well; sort of can ) weld two pieces together
as long as they are next to each other
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a-2.jpg)
..while welding into a 'corner' like this , almost every time ends in grief ; lumps of alu that won't 'stick'
and burning holes.
Sometimes I get something slightly resembling a weld
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/b-1.jpg)
One of the welders advised me that when welding such a weld
I should bring the electrode out further and turn up the gas slightly.
Comments ?
Any rules of thump on far out to take the electrode for different kinds of welding ?
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/c-1.jpg)
it's really just a rebadged BSA B25.
Ahh; a Beeza!
I still have my first bike, a BSA ( actually a TriBSA . Triumph Speed Twin engine in a BSA A10 frame)
that I bought 32 years ago.
Here's my second BSA , still in the process of a second rebuild. Been on the back-burner
for a while as the INDIAN got in the way
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/DSC_0632.jpg)
...Yep, that's me in the panda suit.....I'll see ya on the salt, look us up at the Speed Team Doo compound
Will certainly do !!! If I can't find you, I'll just ask for the panda
.-)
See ya' !
-
Spend a couple of hours last night practicing.
Got to a point where I can ( well; sort of can ) weld two pieces together
as long as they are next to each other
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a-2.jpg)
..while welding into a 'corner' like this , almost every time ends in grief ; lumps of alu that won't 'stick'
and burning holes.
Sometimes I get something slightly resembling a weld
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/b-1.jpg)
One of the welders advised me that when welding such a weld
I should bring the electrode out further and turn up the gas slightly.
Comments ?
Any rules of thump on far out to take the electrode for different kinds of welding ?
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/c-1.jpg)
it's really just a rebadged BSA B25.
Ahh; a Beeza!
I still have my first bike, a BSA ( actually a TriBSA . Triumph Speed Twin engine in a BSA A10 frame)
that I bought 32 years ago.
Here's my second BSA , still in the process of a second rebuild. Been on the back-burner
for a while as the INDIAN got in the way
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/DSC_0632.jpg)
...Yep, that's me in the panda suit.....I'll see ya on the salt, look us up at the Speed Team Doo compound
Will certainly do !!! If I can't find you, I'll just ask for the panda
.-)
See ya' !
Looking forward to seeing you there! I'll be sure we have something cold in the "esky" as the Ausies say.
Your welds are looking better, and will continue to improve with practice. I can see by the horse shoe shape at the ends and the pattern of the bead that you've figured out to add filler when the sides of the joint start to melt back, so that's good progress.
A couple more things to point out. From the sheen on the surface and the light scratch patterns that I can see where you've wire brushed, it looks like the extrusions that you're practicing on may be anodized. If they are you need to do some heavier cleaning to get rid of it before welding. Anodizing is a controlled corrosion process that creates a uniform layer of hard aluminum oxide. The melting temp of the oxide layer (even if it's not anodized, all aluminum has an oxide layer) is MUCH higher than the base layer. If the oxide layer is not completely removed you will have a very hard time welding because the metal under the layer melts before the top skin does, then when the oxide layer lets go you get an instant hole as the molten metal flows out. I recommend sanding it off with a Scotch-Brite pad before wire brushing and cleaning with acetone if you have a very heavy oxide or anodized surface. The only time I'll use just a wire brush is if I've already cleaned it up that day. If it's set a day or two I'll start over at sanding again. Don't get too carried away sanding, you're only trying to take the top .0005 or so off to get below the oxide to bare metal.
On the electrode protrusion, talk to your local welding supply folks about a "gas lens". It's a different setup for the the torch that has a wire screen diffuser and differently shaped cup to control the gas flow and create a more stable bubble of shielding gas. This will let you extend the electrode farther and still keep it shielded. When I'm doing a fillet weld I have my electrode sticking out quite a ways. I set it up by laying the edges of the cup on both sides of the joint and putting the tip of the electrode about half way between the mouth of the cup and the vertex of the joint. You'll have to be careful with the filler rod, I guarantee you will contaminate your electrode a lot of times before you get to the point that you can weld for a while without having to regrind it.
Grind a point on that electrode and give it a try. Angle of the point about like a freshly sharpened pencil, flat tip about 1/3 the total diameter or less, but not a real sharp tip. Play around with it a little using different tip diameters to see what they do and how they work for you. The pointed tip will make the arc much more controllable, and if you're getting a little too much heat to one side of the joint, you can move the arc to the other side just by changing the angle of you hand a little. I've tried to weld with a straight flat tip like you're showing there, and the arc jumping around makes it hard to get an even bead for me.
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Hi Whizz; thanks !
A couple more things to point out. From the sheen on the surface and the light scratch patterns that I can see where you've wire brushed, it looks like the extrusions that you're practicing on may be anodized.If they are you need to do some heavier cleaning to get rid of it before welding. Anodizing is a controlled corrosion process that creates a uniform layer of hard aluminum oxide. The melting temp of the oxide layer (even if it's not anodized, all aluminum has an oxide layer) is MUCH higher than the base layer. If the oxide layer is not completely removed you will have a very hard time welding because the metal under the layer melts before the top skin does, then when the oxide layer lets go you get an instant hole as the molten metal flows out. I recommend sanding it off with a Scotch-Brite pad
Got'ya:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a2-1.jpg)
Grind a point on that electrode and give it a try. Angle of the point about like a freshly sharpened pencil, flat tip about 1/3 the total diameter or less, but not a real sharp tip...
Got'ya:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a1-1.jpg)
Is this deterioration of the tip after a few minutes use normal? ( Mind you: this tip was flat-tip'ped at the outset)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a3-1.jpg)
HEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEY; not bad ...erh ??? :
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a4.jpg)
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That looks pretty good :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Now cut it and polish the cut. Look at the weld area and see how much penetration you are getting. You are looking for a continuous cross section of solid metal at least as thick as the base material that you are welding.
Do another one and cut it at both ends of the weld. Make a weldment about 2 inches wide. Put it in a vise and whack it with a hammer. Pay attention to how strong it is and where it breaks. It should break next to the weld or not at all. After bending the heck out of it or breaking it, saw it and polish again and look closely.
These tests will give you an idea of what's going on inside the weld and some ideas to improve your process.
Yes, with the thoriated electrodes there will be some deterioration of the tip after welding a while, it seems to be less with the tip sharpened though. Keep your CLEAN AREA WIDTH control set in the middle and it will also be minimized, as well as keeping the material very clean. I think a lot of it is buildup of impurities driven out by the EN phase of the sine wave.
Now practice, evaluate, practice, practice, evaluate, practice, repeat. It will keep getting better and better. Keep us updated. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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What's the black at the start of the weld? I hope you're not touching the electrode to the work to start. If you touch the nozzle to the work and then roll the electrode toward the work it should start easily without a touch. A ceriated or lanthiated tungsten will probably work better than the thoriated as they're designed for those types of machines and use a different method of construction in the electrode. It won't deteriorate so badly.
It looks to me like you have the motion and angle down pretty well but you're still moving a little quickly. Don't be afraid to sit on the puddle a little longer so the puddle extends right into the root of the joint. This probably doesn't mean more heat, just leaving the existing heat on a little longer. Sometimes a little back and forth motion with the torch helps.
Pete
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Sooner or later you'll start to get bored with just running beads. When that happens, and before you weld anything important, set your argon flow to about double what you are running now. Have a buddy slowly reduce the flow rate while you are welding until you notice it not welding worth a crap. This will give you a good idea of what happens when your sheilding is insufficient from either too drafty an area, running out of gas, etc. Then do the same thing but start at your normal flow rate and have your buddy turn it up while you weld. You'll find that there is a range of flow rates that work best and how to tell when it is too high or too low. You'll learn these eventually, might as well learn it now and in a controlled environment.
These guys are giving you some good advice. I think they've run a bead or two before.
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George is being shy, he's about to get, or now has, his Masters in Welding Engineering from The Ohio State University. And I think he's laid down a bead or two, Sporting some of his work in my truck.
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George is being shy, he's about to get, or now has, his Masters in Welding Engineering from The Ohio State University. And I think he's laid down a bead or two, Sporting some of his work in my truck.
Thanks, Mike. I am actually getting my Bachelors degree this Sunday. Took my last final today. :-D
Are you making the trek to Maxton?
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Geo, congrats :cheers:
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Geo, congrats :cheers:
Thanks. :-)
One of the best things that happened during the last few years was getting involved in the Buckeye Bullet and meeting such a great bunch of racers on "The Salt".
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Dang, George -- I thought that a five-year student at Michigan Tech was taking a while to get through. Let's see -- the avatar says you're 47 -- and assuming you started in college at 18 or so, that leaves, umm, nnhh, 29 years to get the bachelor's degree. I betcha there must be a good story in there somewhere.
Heart congratulations. Now that you're graduating -- you'll have to start looking for a job. Maybe a Master's isn't such a bad idea after all.
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Dang, George -- I thought that a five-year student at Michigan Tech was taking a while to get through. Let's see -- the avatar says you're 47 -- and assuming you started in college at 18 or so, that leaves, umm, nnhh, 29 years to get the bachelor's degree. I betcha there must be a good story in there somewhere.
Heart congratulations. Now that you're graduating -- you'll have to start looking for a job. Maybe a Master's isn't such a bad idea after all.
Thanks Jon.
I started taking classes seven years ago, when i was 40. I am very happy- and proud - to say that I have accepted a position with Lincoln Electric in Cleveland, starting out in their engineer development program. After about a year I hope to be placed in the applications engineering department.
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Isn't your new position going to conflict with your salt addiction? :roll: Congratulations George!!
Lynda
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Yeah, for the first year. :-(
The upside is that I'll have an income and be able to start building! :-D
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Bachelor's, Masters, what's a couple years :-)... Congratulations! :cheers: and yes, going to Maxton. Got a dyno session set up for next Wed. going to see if the drivetrain will hold up finally, tore up the clutch and transmission last year. Been an expensive winter.
I'll quit threadjacking now... gotta new welder to coach in here somewhere
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Thanks George again for all of your brilliant advise
and congratulations on your Bachelors degree!!!
I'm sure it's well deserved!
That looks pretty good :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Now cut it and polish the cut. Look at the weld area and see how much penetration you are getting. You are looking for a continuous cross section of solid metal at least as thick as the base material that you are welding.
Do another one and cut it at both ends of the weld. Make a weldment about 2 inches wide. Put it in a vise and whack it with a hammer. Pay attention to how strong it is and where it breaks. It should break next to the weld or not at all. After bending the heck out of it or breaking it, saw it and polish again and look closely.
These tests will give you an idea of what's going on inside the weld and some ideas to improve your process.
Yes, with the thoriated electrodes there will be some deterioration of the tip after welding a while, it seems to be less with the tip sharpened though. Keep your CLEAN AREA WIDTH control set in the middle and it will also be minimized, as well as keeping the material very clean. I think a lot of it is buildup of impurities driven out by the EN phase of the sine wave.
Now practice, evaluate, practice, practice, evaluate, practice, repeat. ..
Thanks Wizz!. I will practice, evaluate, practice, practice, evaluate, practice, repeat
I will practice, evaluate, practice, practice, evaluate, practice, repeat
I will practice, evaluate, practice, practice, evaluate, practice, repeat
.-)
What's the black at the start of the weld? I hope you're not touching the electrode to the work to start.
Ooops: donno......if I did it was by mistake.
If you touch the nozzle to the work and then roll the electrode toward the work it should start easily without a touch. A ceriated or lanthiated tungsten will probably work better than the thoriated as they're designed for those types of machines and use a different method of construction in the electrode. It won't deteriorate so badly.
It looks to me like you have the motion and angle down pretty well but you're still moving a little quickly. Don't be afraid to sit on the puddle a little longer so the puddle extends right into the root of the joint. This probably doesn't mean more heat, just leaving the existing heat on a little longer. Sometimes a little back and forth motion with the torch helps.
Pete
Thanks for your advise Pete!
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Hmm, is Lincoln Electric the company that makes Lincoln welders? Lincoln used to sponsor the USFRA event (I've got t-shirts to prove it), and maybe with your experience on the Salt and their past connection -- maybe they'll send you out there to represent them. As I remember, Lincoln went to the event and would weld for competitors when something needed doing. It was great having that resource there. It's be greater still to have you there for them (and to get your Salt fix, too).
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Hmm, is Lincoln Electric the company that makes Lincoln welders? Lincoln used to sponsor the USFRA event (I've got t-shirts to prove it), and maybe with your experience on the Salt and their past connection -- maybe they'll send you out there to represent them. As I remember, Lincoln went to the event and would weld for competitors when something needed doing. It was great having that resource there. It's be greater still to have you there for them (and to get your Salt fix, too).
Yep, that's the one.
I will most certainly see what I can do to convince them to "make" me work a week or two on the salt. It's a tough job but somebody has to do it. :-D
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A couple of hours more of practicing and I can now
actually take two pieces and weld them together without much ado,
no hole-burning, no 'bubbling' through to the back-side of the material, no black spots etc ( OK:...a little )
and do a 'long' continuous bead , adjust the amps down as I go along and the heat accumulates.
It's not perfect...FAR from it, but to me this is progress
and I enjoy it !
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a5.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a6.jpg)
BTW; this is NOT cheap;
I'm almost through my second bottle of argon @ $100 a refill.
Uaarfgh !
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Argon sure is expensive over there.
What size bottle do you have?
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A couple of hours more of practicing and I can now
actually take two pieces and weld them together without much ado,
no hole-burning, no 'bubbling' through to the back-side of the material, no black spots etc ( OK:...a little )
and do a 'long' continuous bead , adjust the amps down as I go along and the heat accumulates.
It's not perfect...FAR from it, but to me this is progress
and I enjoy it !
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a5.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a6.jpg)
BTW; this is NOT cheap;
I'm almost through my second bottle of argon @ $100 a refill.
Uaarfgh !
That's looking better than I was doing after the first couple of weeks. It took me a long while to develop the knack of not dipping the electrode in the pool and having to stop and grind.
Have you cut through a weld yet and looked at it? Or beat on one to see what happens? There's a lot to be learned from that.
What size bottle do you have? I realize that you're in Europe, but that seems awfully high for a bottle that you can use up in a week. I pay about $75 to exchange an empty K bottle (49.9 Liters) at my local welding supply, and even when I'm using it relatively heavily it lasts a couple of months. I can usually get 2 bike frames and several smaller projects done on one bottle. Maybe you need to shop around for a different source. :?
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Sooner or later you'll start to get bored with just running beads. When that happens, and before you weld anything important, set your argon flow to about double what you are running now. Have a buddy slowly reduce the flow rate while you are welding until you notice it not welding worth a crap. This will give you a good idea of what happens when your sheilding is insufficient from either too drafty an area, running out of gas, etc. Then do the same thing but start at your normal flow rate and have your buddy turn it up while you weld. You'll find that there is a range of flow rates that work best and how to tell when it is too high or too low. You'll learn these eventually, might as well learn it now and in a controlled environment.
These guys are giving you some good advice. I think they've run a bead or two before.
Excellent advice, I had to learn that the hard way. Learned real quick what happens when you forget to open the valve on the bottle too. :-D It isn't pretty.
Congrats on the degree George, as well as the new job. Lincoln looks like a good outfit to work for.
I've been trying to give Lars some help from a beginners point of view, and what's worked for me. I'd sure be interested in anything that you have to add. I'm basically self taught from reading on web sites and books, and any shred of info I can get to add to what I've learned so far would certainly be appreciated. I think this is an excellent place for it, since I'm sure anyone else on the site looking for welding info will eventually read this thread and find it also.
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Thanks :-)
I was taught to weld by my grandfather before he passed in '71. I had to stand on a bucket to see the top of the bench. :lol: Then came 30 years of learning on the job before I ever stepped foot in a college classroom. One very important thing I learned was that what works in a sterile lab environment doesn't always translate to practical use in the field. While welding can be studied and implemented from a scientific viewpoint, there always has been and always will be the other half that is an art form. The only way to learn it is to do it. Though i studied under some brilliant minds at Ohio State, people with PhD's from MIT, etc., and some with years of work in national laboratories, I still learn just as much from guys like you who have been there-done that.
When people ask me to teach them to weld, I just tell them I can show them how it's done but only experience will teach them the rest.
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Geo, to your point about the art side of welding, if I ever was able to lay a weld like this, I would cut it off and frame it for hanging on my wall!
Turn the sound down, the video is much better without all the noise in the background.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3msl9X_sw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be3msl9X_sw)
With the welding he is doing, is there something attached to the torch to keep it at a proper distance (can't tell from the quality of the video), or is that just pure skill?
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When you do it all day every day you develop some skills. Some guys seem to have exceptional skills. He's one.
Pete
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Argon sure is expensive over there.
What size bottle do you have?
Mmmmm; don't know. I do not understand what's written on the invoice.
Looks like this:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a9.jpg)
Concerning yours (and Wizz's) comment on the price;
it doesn't really make a lot of sense to compare,
as the currency exchange rate is so odd at the moment,
and when I 'translate' to $ it get's a little weird.
The good part is that my local currency ( Danish Kroner ( Crowns))
will get me a long way when going to the US of A.
That's looking better than I was doing after the first couple of weeks. It took me a long while to develop the knack of not dipping the electrode in the pool and having to stop and grind.
Now that's one of the few things I have down pretty well right now.
One thing I do NOT have down pretty well rigth now
is to remember to botton up my shirt when welding.
A friend just dropped by and asked me why I have
a red-hot triangle where my shirt is open.....aaaauch!
Have you cut through a weld yet and looked at it? Or beat on one to see what happens? There's a lot to be learned from that.
Nope, but I certainly will
What size bottle do you have? I realize that you're in Europe, but that seems awfully high for a bottle that you can use up in a week. I pay about $75 to exchange an empty K bottle (49.9 Liters) at my local welding supply, and even when I'm using it relatively heavily it lasts a couple of months. I can usually get 2 bike frames and several smaller projects done on one bottle. Maybe you need to shop around for a different source. :?
Yeah, but while you make bike frames ,
I make something much bigger:
LARGE PILES OF CRAP !
.-)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a7.jpg)
Must have made my way through 100 feet of bead.
Here's the last one made today.
Much like the one above.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a8.jpg)
I'll do some cutting and hammering during the weekend ( as I'm running out of argon )
and see how the welding actually worked
and I also da have a bike to finish, don't I !!?
( Well, more than one, but I'm thinking about the Indian )
Hopefully get a few of the last parts today so I can
make cables for the throttle and for the ignition timing ( manually operated in left handle )
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a10.jpg)
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"With the welding he is doing, is there something attached to the torch to keep it at a proper distance ?"
Yep...his hand! Some of these guys are amazing. I watched a fella weld a lap joint on 1/8 stainless steel a couple years ago and the result was every bit as smooth and consistent as anything you would get from a robot, maybe even better.
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$100 of argon for practice is bad enough, but I see about $500 of aluminum extrusions all over the floor!
Don
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Rex,
Great thread as I am learning Tig welding too.
That red spot is a UV burn. About 10 times as bad as a sunburn. And it will take about 10 times as long to go away. Mine on my knee was 10 months to getting back to normal skin.
Cover everything, every bit of skin. You do not want to let the arc light shine on your body.
Geo
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Oops. Double post.
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$100 of argon for practice is bad enough, but I see about $500 of aluminum extrusions all over the floor!
Don
Yeah BUT those are scrap-pieces from this place I cooperate with.
I pick them from their scrap-heap, weld away and return it back there
after which they sell it to be re-cycled.
Just for the fun of it I took to a different type of aluminum.
Cast-aluminum. Quite un-clean and full of air-'pockets'.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a12.jpg)
Those are the bits cut off ( as I wanted it narrower ) from the two halves in which my gas-tank came
( turned around and put together above )
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/tank-1.jpg)
It went quite well.
Different 'feeling' to it. A different red'ish glow from the heated aluminum.
Cranked up the "Base current" ( valley current ) and turned on the "Pulse", to get a bit more 'cleaning' action.
Didn't make much , if any , difference.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a13.jpg)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a11.jpg)
Back when the welding was done to the tank ( NOT by me )
it was done like this, after grinding a V-shaped grove into the two halves.
The V went down halfway into the thickness of the material:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/CIMG4207.jpg)
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That red spot is a UV burn.
Jep. I'm embaressed to say that I did get a similar but milder one on the first day of welding.
It was just about to go away....well; now it won't
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That's about the same as a sunburn, and don't forget that bad sunburns (well, really, any sunburn) can lead directly to skin cancers. Be careful.
Nancy and I, living so far up that we don't do much outdoor sunning (or working, for that matter) have our own tanning bed at home. We spend time in there year 'round, but especially before we head to the races. We know very well that we're likely to get a big dose of sunlight -- and if we did that without having a tan started we'd be burned to a crisp within a few days.
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That's about the same as a sunburn, and don't forget that bad sunburns (well, really, any sunburn) can lead directly to skin cancers. Be careful.
Nancy and I, living so far up that we don't do much outdoor sunning (or working, for that matter) have our own tanning bed at home. We spend time in there year 'round, but especially before we head to the races. We know very well that we're likely to get a big dose of sunlight -- and if we did that without having a tan started we'd be burned to a crisp within a few days.
I received a 2nd degree burn on my knee one day when i was sitting at a bench Tig welding for about 6 hours. I had a small tear in my pant leg and didn't pay it any attention. A tear about 2 inches long led to a blister about 2 inches in diameter that took forever to heal.
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:-D
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a14.jpg)
:oops:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a15.jpg)
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The welding is looking good. :lol:
The chest burn, not so good. :-o
Hint: The welding magnet in you pic works great for holding parts in position, but it can really mess with a DC arc that gets close to it.
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The welding is looking good. :lol:
Thanks. Kind of surprised myself there...ha ha
The chest burn, not so good. :-o
Hint: The welding magnet in you pic works great for holding parts in position, but it can really mess with a DC arc that gets close to it.
Ooops. What exactly could happen here ?
Don't wonna do any (more) stupid things
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/knifeinoutlet.jpg)
Any other safety issues I should know about ?
..typical stupid thing to do resulting in an electric shock ?
..what about the fumes ? How do you protect yourself
Thanks
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Not really a safety issue with the magnet, just that if you get a DC arc real close (like within 1/2" or so) it will bend the arc a bit toward or away from the magnet depending on which magnetic pole is towrd the arc. Try it sometime just for fun with a piece of scrap steel.
Electric shock is not a big problem. Just use normal precautions you would use around any electrical devices. Oh, and try to always wear dry gloves. I've been "waked up" a few times when I accidently touched the filler rod to the tungsten. Kinda like an electric fence shock.
Tig doesn't produce much in the way of hazardous fumes EXCEPT for when there are residual cleaners left on the material. Read this thread: http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=6424.0 (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?topic=6424.0)
If in doubt, rinse with acetone and dry completely before welding.
Where did you get the pic if me testing the outlet? :-D
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YaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaHuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!!!!
Made my first ever alu-welded part, that will actually serve a function on the bike
A combined air-inlet and "keep my knee from interfering the throttle-cable-wheel"-contraption.
Welded tube to flange (is that the term?)
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a16.jpg)
...started at the 'under'-side as tube was right at the edge of the flange
so wanted to do this part first before everything heated up
and I would risk melting the edge of the flange
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a21.jpg)
..and welded the thingy to the flange
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a17.jpg)
That weld isn't too pretty, buy that is solely because thingy is
a different sort of alu, namely a cast-aluminum of some sort, and also quite thinner than the flange.
VERY tricky.
Well, that's my explanation......and I'm sticking to it !
.-)
Came out pretty decent. Not good, not bad,
but darn ; I'm pleased .
No burning through the material. No black burns
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a18.jpg)
Just need to sand and polish it up, make a gasket and stick it on the bike.
The air-filter is a mock-up. A size that fits the tube will be mounted
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a19a.jpg)
As the famous quote says:
"That's one small step for mankind, but one giant leap for this here man"
.
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Nice, nice work. I betcha you'll remember that one piece for a long time. . .
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Good job!
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I'm impressed. A little more time and you'll be happy with the appearance too. There are lots of weldors who wish their first attempts had looked that good. There's something about starting in the real world that can screw things up. Keep up the good work.
Pete
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Congratulations. Now the challenge is to NOT make a whole bunch of parts "just because you can" and run out of time to finish the really necessary things before it's time to ship the bike. Trust me, this can be a real challenge. :evil:
What did you see when you cut your weldments apart?
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Lars you are the man.
Rocky
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Thank you Slim, George, Pete, Whizz, Rocky !
You have no idea how pleasing it is for an old dog like me to learn new tricks
Congratulations. Now the challenge is to NOT make a whole bunch of parts "just because you can" and run out of time to finish the really necessary things before it's time to ship the bike. Trust me, this can be a real challenge. :evil:
Trust me; I trust you
.-)
What did you see when you cut your weldments apart?
Haven't done it yet. Will do today or tomorrow
when I go out to that place mentioned above where they do the big alu construction
as they have a nice big saw set up to cut alu.
BTW: just for fun I put the welder on DC , turned down the peak current and
tried TIG welding regular metal.
Boy'oh'boy; was that e a s y compared to the alu welding !
First attempt
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/a22.jpg) (http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/?action=view¤t=a22.jpg)
I love that machine !!!
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I have perused a few of the posts and did not see a response reply to this before....
Does your welding machine have on the A.C. setting a mannor to change the current frequency or cycles...???
many of the more recient units have this feature and if you can position the setings to about 50 cycles, the unit will make a significant/noticable HUMM that also helps cleaning of the oxide and allows an easier puddle/crater controll...(aluminum)
a "normal" setting on a non adjustable power supply unit is 60 cycles input ( out of the wall power) and it also puts out 60 cycles to your hand unit.
dunno what your wall power output is over where you are located, but in U.S.A. it is sixty cycles.
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I have perused a few of the posts and did not see a response reply to this before....
Does your welding machine have on the A.C. setting a mannor to change the current frequency or cycles...???
many of the more recient units have this feature and if you can position the setings to about 50 cycles, the unit will make a significant/noticable HUMM that also helps cleaning of the oxide and allows an easier puddle/crater controll...(aluminum)
a "normal" setting on a non adjustable power supply unit is 60 cycles input ( out of the wall power) and it also puts out 60 cycles to your hand unit.
dunno what your wall power output is over where you are located, but in U.S.A. it is sixty cycles.
Ahh; never thought that the frequency had any influence on the welding,
but the thing is that over here in Denmark we do run 50Hz / 220V on all wall power outlets,
so I guess that takes care of what you mention above,
but thanks for pointing it out.
BTW got my Amp-pedal yesterday.
MMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm; something's wrong if I'm not mistaken ( and I could very well be )
as it apparently is set up to turn DOWN amp when I press the pedal.
I can work it, turning down amp when for example getting close an edge etc.
but it seams terribly counter-intuitive to me, to to press it DOWN to get LESS amp !!???
Looks like this
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/equip2.jpg)
...the red knob regulates the MINIMUM AMP reached when pedal is pressed ALL the way down
and when I lift the foot away from the pedal it goes up to the machines max ( close to 200)
Nope; I haven't connected it wrong as there is only one way to do it.
Confused !
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Me too. It should operate just like an accelerator pedal........ more pedal, more power.
Pete
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Wow. That's a new one on me.
I don't think I've ever seen a pedal work that way.
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The Tig unit pedal that is on the welder in the Netherlands worked like the one Octane has...........it got changed our real fast to a "Normal" one......down for more..........................................................
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I understand that the "cycle rate" of a foreign electrical power in thru the wall socket connections is different. 50 cycles is common in most places other than america. american power is 60. @ 220 or 208 volts.
about the welder
the newer models produced have a secondary adjustment that you can change the high frequency rate and also the number of cycles that the pulsing of the power occilates. this action enables the heat effected zone to be slightly narrower and more centered so that it is easier to continue a puddle. the alteration of the cycles of the pulsation also helps to clean the tungsten tip.
on my older hobart and linde units they have no mannor to change this cycle rate
my newer (2003) model miller dynasty inverter unit does.
when this feature is enabled/operational, it makes the machine HUMM with a high pitch sound.
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I see.
I do believe I have that:
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x214/octane98/equip.jpg)
The instructions says:
PULSE FREQUENCY CONTROL
at DC TIG , place DC/PULSE at PULSE,
this switch can adjust the pulse cycle frequency ( o.5-300Hz)
...and someone told me to crank it up like 100-120Hz ( + press PULSE switch )
to get a narrower 'beam'.
So I won't be able to use this welding alu , as it only works in CD mode right ..!? [EDIT: I mean DC ]
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but on MY MACHINE,
this ONLY operates in A.C. mode.
are you welding aluminum in D.C. ???
I do not know any details about YOUR machine.
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maybe your machine, (i.e power supply unit)
has this ability to only occur during "ramp up" or innitial starting of the weld, so that it can make the heat zone narrower and more directed and thus will not overheat a larger area.
kinda tied into the ability of the power unit to start at a certain percentage of what your maximum power/voltage is...when you innitially depress the pedal.
at least MY UNIT has that option, so that I can in fact have max at example 200 ....and the innitial start power when I first depress the pedal can be as low as 20 percent of the maximum...so that would then be 40 number.
but when it is at the 20 percent number, the power /flame/heated zone will be NARROWER and thus will be also more directed.
this allows the centered /directed heat to not burn off when you are doing inside corners or directed chamfers within a angle.
I am also one of those that have very good results putting a point on the tip of tungsten when doing aluminum...but only pretty much when under about 250 amps.
preheating aluminum to 150/300 degrees helps a lot.
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Thanks.
Sorry about my late reply.
The thing is that you kind'a lost me there.
I simply need to learn much more about what the hell I'm doing,
so I will start doing my homework by reading these two books that just arrived
from Amazon.
(http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/octane98extra/bog.jpg)
Hopefully I'll get wiser and able to understand the finers points of welding
to a point where I can actually understand what I'm told by folks trying to help me.