Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: BiggerDanno on July 12, 2004, 06:40:00 PM
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This may not be the appropriate forum, but since it's my first post, I hope you'll forgive me if not...
What's the difference in Altered Partial Streamline and Modified Partial Streamline as related to motorcycles.
Either I cannot read too well, or they've hidden it in the rules, but I cannot find what the differences are in requirements/restrictions.
Can someone more enlightened than myself (not hard to find) please tell me?
I'm trying to figure out which class my bike would be better suited for and/or built for.
Thanks!!! :)
<small>[ July 12, 2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: BiggerDanno ]</small>
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First would be wheelbase, I believe.
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Hey Danno there is no difference between modified partial streamlining and special construction partial streamlining if you are only looking at "partial streamling " they bothh use the same rule /s
Gary (hawkwind)
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hawkwind,
You can never be so wrong. There are a few big differences you need to be aware of.
Seat position needs to be blow top of rear tire, fuel tank capacity below 1.3 gallons, foot pegs must be near rear axel, wheelbase differences between classes. THere are major design changes for a special construction bike.
Special construction bikes are purpose built bikes for speed, but the rules allow only a 1.3 gallon fuel cell. Now why is that since that machine is sapposed to be faster then a modified machine but carry less fuel.
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Yeah, I was wondering why the tank has to be 1.32 gallons (which, by the way, is 5 liters) OR LESS. I extrapolate, therefore, that my special construction (a.k.a. "altered") bike (if'n I was to build one) would need to get at least 5 mpg to make a full five-mile pass on the long course, allowing a bit of fuel for warm-up at the line. Or, if I was to run in gas class and got less than the 5 mpg, I'd have to carry a sealed container of gas to the line, warm up the bike, and have an official watch me top off the tank before I make a run.
Back to the original question, the words "partial streamliner" mean the same in either Modified or Altered -- no change in bodywork -- other than what would be required to get the seat low enough and the pegs back far enough.
Does that help muddy the issue enough for you?
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First off, it depends on which organization.... AMA or SCTA.. the rules are different
second... there is a big screw up with the SCTA Modified vs. Altered "special construction" rules this year..... The ONLY way to get from Modified to Special Construction is to lengthen the swingarm. The other items... <1.3 gal tank, seat lower than top of year tire... so forth ARE NOT REQUIRED as the rules are written this year, OR they could have just one of the features... but would then need a longer wheelbase to qualify...
I dont have the rules in front of me, but I've read them over and talked to Tom Evans, just to make sure I was reading them correctly... and I was.
I will post them when I get home tonight....
as for AMA, their rules are little more clear. Wheel base and seat height... unless you have a bike that is otherwise legal for Modified, but it has a longer than Modified rules spec. wheel base, then it bumps to Altered "Special Construction".
to be honest, both orgs. will need to clean up the rules for next year, and nail down what the "intent" of the rules governing the two classes are, and the "intent" of the exceptions. By that I mean... are they trying to prevent someone from putting a longer swingarm on a otherwise Modified class bike and running it in Special Construction, reserving that class for specially built chasis ONLY? ... or should you be allowed to do just that... and if you dont go to the trouble to built a special chasis, and not take advantage of all the things you CAN do in that class and can still run as fast, if not faster than someone who did... good on ya?
I've gotten the word from AMA/Bub's that they hold the latter to be true... no word from the SCTA... good luck getting any.
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You are both speaking of "Special Construction", I am asking about "Altered Partial Streamline" as in APS-BG/1350 VS. MPS-BG/1350. Is the "Special Construction" the same as "Modified"?
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Yes, indeedy, there are a number of instances in the rulebook where an English teacher might be able to do some good in cleaning up the phraseology and word choices. "Modified Production Class" doesn't seem to work -- that is, production is "just like the factory made it" and "modified" is "changed from how they made it", I think. And "streamlining open class" can't really exist, 'cause no streamlining is allowed in open class, which many folk refer to anyway as "naked bike" class. And somebody might think about defining "special construction" because it sure seems to be the same as when they say "altered".
I'm thinking about volunteering to offer some editing for the next iteration of the rulebook. Hey, an attorney could have a field day trying to pin down a rulemaker with all the various uses of some of the words in the rules.
See you on the Salt, boys and girls, in about a month!
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Frame types:
Production
Modified
Special Construction
Streamliner
Sidecar
now.. there are tons of names for all of these depending on the org. BUT here is the generally accepted usage.. as defined by the way the classes are displayed in the record books...
P = Production
M = Modified
A = Special Construction, Altered, Exclusive Construciton
S = Streamliner
SC = Sidecar
So... biggerdanno, NO, special construction is not the same as modified.
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confusing at best.
BUT, if you look back at my post and use the the last post a key to figuring out which class I am talking about... it should all make sense.. after a few beers.
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Then you get into streamlining...
NO Streamlining
Partial Streamlinig
Streamliner
now, each org. calls these classes different things... OPEN Motorcycles, Streamlined, Partial Streamlined...
but there are only 3 variation on the streamlinig theme, and they are listed above.
You have to look at the records to figure it all out....
now, StreamlinERS are a frame class AND a Streamlining class, and have requirements unique to both categories and they CANNOT be sperated... i.e. You cant run a Streamliner frame with NO streamlining (bodywork).
However.. you can run a Modified frame class bike in both Open (NO Streamlining) and Partial Streamlining... just by removing the fairing.
make it all about as clear as mud? :D
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The other unique class in regards to frame config and stremalining is Produciton.
its just that... nothing allowed other than the way it came from the factory... with the exception of adding the safety features... safety wire, cut off switch...
but no modifications to frame or streamlining allowed in Production class.
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Yep, clear as mud.
Now, back to my original question, what's the difference in altered vs. modified? (SCTA rules)
<small>[ July 13, 2004, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: BiggerDanno ]</small>
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68" wheelbase is modified. 68.1" is altered (SC). Seat lower than top of rear tire with bike loaded (SC).
Less than 5 liter (1.32 gal) (SC). Rear pegs closer than 6 inches to rear axle (SC).
sec 7.F.13
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Whups! Here's one of those ~inconsistancies~, page 97 (under Modified Frame) says "The handlebar grips and seating postion must not be lower than a horizontal line drawn even with the uppermost portion of the wheel rims."
On page 100 (in bold print)" * Seat lower than top of rear tire with bike loaded." as a disqualification for Modified class.
Gee, I don't want to enter the wrong class. Is the seating height determined by rim height or top of tire?
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Jon we use the same rules as SCTA but a year behind( and you think you have to wait a while for your new rules ) looking at your 2003 rules for "partial streamlining " as in what streamlining is allowed for partial streamlined these are the same for both modified (MPS) and special construction ( APS) yes there are many differences between modified and special construction but unless I am reading /interpreting differently than you, streamlining for special construction refers you back to modified , I thought Danno was asking was there a difference in what streamlining is allowed for each class of bike have the rules changed for 2004???
Gary
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I'll post the exact rules out of this years book... but you DONT to have the seat lower than the tire, a small gas tank, or the pegs farther to qualify for Altered this year in the SCTA, you just need a londer wheelbase....
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A grizzled old salt veteran once told me that maybe the car classes would be better off if we all ran on a record logged to our vehicle number. Then we wouldn't have to fret about streamlining, hood length, parachute pack configuration, etc. If you ran vehicle #1010, for instance, once you exceeded your best speed you had a new record (for vehicle #1010). No more quibling, no more protests. I thought this was just a joke. But with over 1500 motorcycle classes and only about 100 bikes at Speed Week, this is something you guys might want to consider in the future.
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I am a car guy and I don't want to step on any toes here but Stan does have a point - whats up with the million classes - how fine can you split a hair??
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With the current rules anyone can run a modified bike in Altered by either, changing the gas tank size, or moving the pegs, orlowering the seat, or extending the wheelbase.
With the onset of several bikes knocking on the 250mph door, maybe it is time for a re-think on the Altered class rules that really define the class for purpose built land speed bikes. Imagine - full dustbin fairings - allowed! Streamlined tail sections that extend beyond the rear wheel allowed! This would open up the class to some really creative technology and even greater speeds from sit-on bikes. 300mph maybe???
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yamagamma possibly by 2006 this will be reality in the DLRA ( dry lake racers Australia ) provided concensus can be reached regarding safety issues real and percived , it is extreamly exciting ,and opens up 300+ mph for "sit on type bikes " my plans are now waiting to become reality
Hawkwind
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Here we go again. At Speed Week it was said that the Modified bikes would be kept out of the Altered classes by the rear frame rail lower than the tire rule. The 2004 rule book clearly states that any of the WB, footpeg location, gas tank size rules will put you in the Altered class. Imagine the poor racer who shows up without a 68" WB. expecting to run Altered, he can't. It would be so simple just to say that an Altered bike must have a custom frame and no other restrictions (except streamlining) and a Modified bike has to have a factory frame. Yes, I have a bias, but I still think it is the best, simplest solution.
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Larry I think maybe the wording is wrong in 7.F.13. It states... ANY of the following will advance a modified production bike into Class A.(tank size,footpegs,wb, seat)
If it said ALL of the following are required to advance.... then there would be a lot more difference between the two classes.
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as a record holder in both a class and m classes i have no problem with people going from m to a frame classes with small changes. the car guys do it (the racedeck street roadster ran three classes in 2003 and set 3 records) what the bike board must look at as the car board has done is that is there a PERFORMANCE advantage if you were to take a m class frame and run it in a class. the answer is no. its a dissadvantage to run a production based frame against a purpose built landspeed racing bike. which brings us back to a point that the 200mph club has brought up with the minimums to gain acceptance to the club. setting records should represent a superior performance for that class. so if a purpose built super aerodynamic , long, low, raked and massaged bike cant go faster than a stock framed production bike with a few mods how valid is the record. i say bring on the m framed bikes and lets see who's the fastest!
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AAA a message from Mr Guthrie who is famous for class jumping, the master at it... :) :) :) :)
Love ya scott.
The biggest problem I see that a A class big should be the dream deamon from hell that is going to go super fast, as Jason says faster then the Production or Modified bikes, However the gas tank rule sucks. A purposed built bike to go super fast may not be a turbo, but rather a nitro burning bike, and on the long course going the full 7 miles, im sure that 1.3 gallon tank could empty pretty fast. I dont really know. But an A frame and built bike you should be allowed for more modifictions to go fast, not lower the seat below the tire. There is really a large lack of innovation for that class, what if I dont want my foot pegs back at the rear tire, or want a 1.3 gallon tank, maybe I need more fuel then that (like nitro or more fuel needed for nitrous bike). Hmmm something to think about.
Just seems more limits put on a purpose built class.
And really what was so wrong as before? People got to run in several classes, thus being more money for the organization for more class changes. I think what it really did was the people who could do it before, have rather a secure record because now it is harder to get into that class from a production or modified frame.
I say lets rid some of the 1500 bike classes and incorporate less classes for next year. Could prove to make a better meet racing each other.
One example was Joe Amo and Jason McVicar going after the 1000 MPS-F record. Starting in 1998 the record I beleive was 186 mph. Joe bumped it a little (191 or 193) then McVicar bumped it to (196 or 198), then Amo bumped it to 201, Mcvicar bumped it 206, then Amo bumped it to 221 mph in 2001. Its just not all about getting the name in the book.
That was fun watching and being part of it all, parking lot rebuilds, stuck to the radio for the times, the sharing of smirks, the hand shakes, the "what the fu**'s", the wrench throwing etc etc. That is true in a Bonneville memory. Competitivness. Not searching the rule book for where there is no record and going 60 mph in one of the open 1500 classes.
Jonathan
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How do you come up with this stuff, Scott?
Do you actually have a day job?
Makes me laugh though.
Actually Scott, here is a different view, combine altered and modified and take the higher of the speeds?
El Mirage does not run a modified class, and most rules stem from El Mirage running then Bonneville runnings. Seems that there isnt much advantage to running a altered bike since there are more restrictions on that class to be in it. More of an advantage thru Gas or Fuel or Blown and Unblown so keep those as they are. That would get rid of 133 spaces in current rule book that would rid of 4 pages. But we arent really talking about pages in the rule book, we are talkig about reducing the number of classes. Or we take hte modified frame and combine it with altered, same difference. That would or possibly affect 15 of your records in the altered class. How many of those records were set with a purpose built bike in the altered classes? 6 of those records have a faster speed in the modified class versus the altered class. You were given chance by jumping classes from a modified bike to altered. Im not picking on you Scott Im just showing a point. Altered should have faster speeds then modified, should be a purpose built bike etc etc. So basically what it amounts to, releive the delimma of classes and combine the two?
Just funny now they make a deal of it, instead of 10-15 years ago when it was happening?
They say most rules wont change for an unfair advantage like the "36 rule, for the people who raced before you.
:) :)
Jon
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Individual record performance importance is divided by the number of classes and cheap shots are extra.
It could be the FIM/FIA is correct and the US has created a non racing monster with a class for everybody that comes along forever with the entry fee.
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"Once a bike is "entered" at Bonneville, the bike stays in that same class FOREVER! One meet; ten years, whatever!"
Ok by me, in not interested in mutiple records, im interested in going fast and enjoying the surroundings of going to Speedweek.
But politics would come in and ruin that, imagine how much money would be lost from class moving at todays meets. Even now with the Altered rule I venture to say it will affect the pocketbook of the scta.
Jonathan
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Hi all,
Hey, I'm all for MORE classes! How about two-stroke
AND four-stroke records in the same class? Just some
more fuel (or pre-mix) for the fire! Hee hee! ;)
Keep up the discussion, very informative and
entertaining. Hope to meet you guys on the salt
this year.
Dave
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Anybody can try to pull a chain, but to push one "FOREVER" is an art.
No one has "CLASS JUMPED" more than Scott at the club races except perhaps Me.
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Here's a thought... there is nothing "wrong" with the way the classes are now, Altered, production, Modified... the only thing that needs to be cleaned up and defined are the rules governing them, the intent behind them, and how they are enforced at tech and registration on the Salt.
Make those all 3 of those items PUBLIC and offer them up for a little bit of open discussion, and it will be fine.
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as to finding open records and going 60mph to get in the record books... whats wrong with that? I do it all the time. :D 'Cept now we are doing over 80mph with the same bike and hunting for 90+.
remember all records were once open ones, and there is nothing wrong with finding one that someone hasnt bothered to set yet and doing it.
Are there ANY small cc pushrod sidecar records? Nope, mainly because I havent had time to build the derned sidecar. :D
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Dave
There are over 1800 MC classas available we don't really need more.
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BTW, I emailed Wink and his response was the handlebars and the seat height must be above a line drawn thru the top of the rims for Modified class.
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yes, but the seat height and handle bars below the top of the rims isnt REQUIRED for Altered. Thats the point of discussion... Can/Should one be allowed to run an otherwise legal for Modified class bike in Altered and give up the advantage that a custom chasis provides...
kinda like running a bike with a slightly larger than legal for Open class "headlight" in MPS. It aint legal for Open class, but there is nothing in the MPS class rules that say you HAVE to have a full fairing... a cafe racing fairing will do, or even a large "headlight". If you run against someone with a full fairing and streamlined this and taped-up that.. and still beat 'em... good on ya.
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Originally posted by AlanGalbraith#4747:
Here's a thought... there is nothing "wrong" with the way the classes are now, Altered, production, Modified... the only thing that needs to be cleaned up and defined are the rules governing them, the intent behind them, and how they are enforced at tech and registration on the Salt.
Make those all 3 of those items PUBLIC and offer them up for a little bit of open discussion, and it will be fine.
DIng, ding, we have a winner!!!
My original question was posed as the rulebook becomes a bit unclear. I see by the responses that I am not the only one confused...
Then there are those that used this to start a whole 'nuther discussion...
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Danno,I agree,the rulebook is as clear as mud.Just try and figure out what size motor is allowed in a particular CC class---