Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: JimL on January 23, 2010, 11:04:02 PM
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Not much to show, yet. Heads are out getting porting along with bigger seats and valves (oversize CR750 valves fit, from the old 2 valve heads, though these engines are 4 valve cylinder heads). I don't have enough heads in hand to show what it should look like....these are a pair of spares, while the good ones get fixed up.
The rear frame section (above the wheel) is still the old Katana parts....that gets chopped off. I'm going with .122 wall, 1 5/8" DOM for all 4 main frame tubes....I want this chassis STIFF.
Carbs will be 40mm on each cylinder (4). Cams are out for rework (setting up to run 10-11,000 RPM for peak power). I had good luck running the 500 up to 11,000 last year, though it ran poorly due to metal going through the carbs and flooding the back cylinder.
These engines are actually 674cc (though it says 650cc on the block), which equals 1348cc total.
I'll have to move the upper shock mount back, in order to get the engines closer to the swing arm pivot. It also looks like the front wheel may have to go forward a few inches. The rear suspension question is still not certain...I'm running out of real estate, quickly.
The engines will be angled, approximately as shown, to allow coupling crankshafts direct using 6" straight cut, spur gears. Both engines will have starters (working together), and their original ignition triggers and modules. It uses a single clutch and trans (close ratio 5 speed from the 500, plus lower ratio primary drives to reduce trans and countershaft RPM). This thing will not be much fun getting off the line.
Because the oil pumps had to "go", and the spur gears would drag in a "bath", the system will be dry-sumped with external pump. Since the bike will be APS (only), the radiator and various tanks will have to live sideways in the fairings.
Cooling system ditches the original cam driven water pumps for a high output electric. All electrical is from 2 batteries, contant loss system.
Tomorrow will be temporary bolting up the crankcases, to get accurate measurements before we water-jet the primary drive main connection plate. If I can get an extra knee installed in my left leg, I might be able to clear the rear carb! The wheel base is currently identical to the 500cc bike I ran last year.
JimL
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Cool project!
I enjoyed looking over your 500 in the line up last year at Speed Week after following the build diary.
I recall you mentioning that the 500 chassis was built to handle 2 engines.
Good luck with the new build.
Scott
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I've figured out how to keep the wheelbase under control, by angling the engine package down at the back and up at the front. With the cases bolted together, I found I can position the forks at 32 degrees, with 7.1% trail/wheelbase ratio. The rear, upper shock mount has to be "flipped" and some frame cut away to clear the rear head and exhaust. Wheelbase is identical to last years bike, but a little more rake and trail.
I'll have room for about 2 1/2" suspension travel, front and rear.
Working on the crank gear arrangement, I've mocked up the arrangement shown (the center gear is foam board, at the moment). Using crank gears (connected to each clutch basket gear), and a single central large gear (an extra clutch basket gear), I have much better access to bearing support for the additional shafts. This eliminates cutting and welding up oil passages, and leaves room to add high pressure oiling to each of the idler gear bearings.
The dry sump pump can run from the forward small idler, because the clutch basket goes away on the forward engine (just the gear will be left behind).
JimL
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Long story shortened. :-P Long conversation with an engineer who worked on geared cranks. Bad way to go for a novice.
He says get connected by Gilmer belt, from one clutch gear to another (mine have damping springs in them). It'll mean no machining on the cases, but a little more work to make shafts and bring them outside.
Sure glad I wasn't farther along!
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Engines are mounted to my motor plate....2 days to hand carve these parts, then joined with 1" square bar stock. Still some more fill and weld to do, then start making cover plates with bearing carriers for the belt drive between the 6" gears. The belt will run on 3-4" gears, to keep surface speed below within reason.
The Katana frame head will be cut away considerably, before I can start bending tubing (need my other heads to move ahead). Also shown is one of my "reduced" flywheels and my 18T sprocket. The swing arm pivot is as close as possible, because the rear sprocket will only have 30-31 teeth. The chain runs will be close, top and bottom, but ok for 2" of travel. There's a rear view, along the swing arm, showing countershaft sprocket position.
Still have to figure out where to mount and drive the dry sump pump....the belt drive runs backward, so that won't work.
More to come.
JimL
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Just thinking out loud here. Would it possibly work out better to use a belt to link power from the 2 engines at the trans output shafts? You would have to synch the shifters and use both transmissions, but it could be done. Belt speed would be much lower, and it seems to me that it would simplify fabrication quite a bit. You could probably even adapt late model H-D final drive belt and pulleys. In my mind it seems that it would result in a more robust setup with less stress on all the parts. Maybe use a vacuum booster to help with pulling both clutches.
Like I said, just a thought. I've been quite impressed by your work so far, so I'm sure that what ever you decide to do will be top notch. :cheers:
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Wahoo Excellent!!!
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Jim
shouldn't you be out changing floor mats and gas pedals?
Kent
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So will this be run in special construction class then?
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Kent --
I don't think he recalls.
Stan
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Whizzbang....I did look at that, but I have the lower primary ratios (2.242:1) installed (and closer, lower ratio transmission gears), so my belt speed will be less on the engine primary reduction than it would be on the end of the trans (trans has overdrive). This arrangement is about as short as I can get, and certainly the slowest with a small pulley set. Also, this lets me determine where the engine rotations are, and eliminates the drag of "two overdrives".
I also had the advantage of guidance from people learning to make horsepower through two cranks. Pictured below are the flywheels (lighter on the "drive out" engine)....not a great pic...sorry. The front flywheel is quite a bit heavier than the rear; before you ask, I don't know why....just following directions! That's the good part about bein' not so bright; smart folks help you out, figurin' 'what can it hurt?'
The other problem for connecting output shafts, is the wacky layout on the "left" side of these engines. The shift drum is on the "wrong end" of the engine, right under the countershaft, plus shift linkage arms, flywheel, starter, starter drive, ignition...all in between the countershafts...gets ugly.
nrhs....yes, "A" class, and it'll be "APS" only, because there is too much gear in too small a space. There will be things hanging off the bike, all the way up into the fairing, which will make it impossible to enter as a naked bike. I'm still struggling with the dry sump pump (which is a MUST HAVE due to the rear engine lay down, which would flood the trans if I wet sump). I may have to open part of the front engine forward case area, to make room for the dry sump pump, bringing the lines out the side of the motor plate.
When I first ran Bonneville in 1969, I was fascinated by Don Sligers dual Enfield. To my eye, it was perfect, and I've dreamed of building a twin engine bike ever since. I don't know if it'll work as good as his did, but I'll always appreciate that memory. That's as good a reason as any to give it a try. Thanks Don!
JimL
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Upside down forks used to be exotic but they are more common now and some used ones are showing up at decent prices. They have a lot more strength and rigidity in the triple clamp area than regular forks. Just a thought, if a guy could find a set for a bargain, they may be a good idea on a big, long and powerful bike, especially if the salt is wet or rough.
I am learning a lot from your build, especially how to set up the chassis on the bench, how to position things, etc. This is a nice bike. Thanks for posting the pictures.
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Thanks for the tip about the forks...not sure if there are any that would fit this frame head, and any that aren't already wrecked can't be cheap. I can brace the triple clamps, like we used to do for road race in the old days.
A note about the table; the bolt holding the wheels down (through the tubeless tire stem hole) is "washer shimmed" underneath, between the 3/4" ply and the steel table frame. The 3/4" ply is raised from the bed and shimmed everywhere for level. On each side of the wheel contact point, just outboard of the edge of the rim, is a bolt through the table bed and the table frame WITHOUT washers between. Very small changes in tension, on these two bolts, adjusts the vertical position of the front and rear wheels. After it's set and "settled" for a bit, finish any adjustment needed, then tap some shims in to keep it from sagging.
It's kind of a poorman's adjustable workbed. It'll hold shape long enough to get tubing welded, and after that won't matter so much.
Table is on casters, also...really important when building in a restricted space.
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Jim,
I am sure I have a good straight set of upside down/inverted front forks with wheel and brakes...if you can come and get them they are yours..pm if interested..
John
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Thanks John....I have to figure this PM thing out. I never noticed the MY MESSAGES and have been ignoring people for years! My apologies to everybody....especially the nice fella' from Pulishers Clearinghouse (I didn't hear the doorbell, either!)
:oops:JimL
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You never did answer what class you plan to run this in. Can you run 2 engines in a regular 1350cc pushrod class or do the 2 engines make it a special construction? The rules are confusing.
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Jim,
Good talking to you, as I said rather than worrying about modding the front end for the frame you could always mod the frame if need be.
See you later..
John
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You never did answer what class you plan to run this in. Can you run 2 engines in a regular 1350cc pushrod class or do the 2 engines make it a special construction? The rules are confusing.
Seems like it would run in APS PG-1350 pr APS PF-1350
J
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I'm being an idiot!! Special construction is "A" class. Some stupid voice was telling me that A class and special construction were 2 different classes.
I really need to put a hurting on that other voice that keeps talking to me! :|
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I'm being an idiot!! Special construction is "A" class. Some stupid voice was telling me that A class and special construction were 2 different classes.
I really need to put a hurting on that other voice that keeps talking to me! :|
I never called you an idiot... :evil:
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It would be easier if they called it Altered class. :roll:
Fred
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Thanks, John, for the assistance....I realized these forks will help my trail number, which will be more stable, not less. I'm sure I can build the front of the frame to take them....I have to do some pretty extreme bends to clear the front cylinder head anyway. If my luck holds it'll rain all weekend, which means SHOP TIME!!..... not trimming bushes and hauling trash. I feel the need....to bend some steel.
Have a successful trip.
JimL
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Noonan,
Stop talking to me in my head!!
Jim
Bike looks great.
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[quote I can brace the triple clamps, like we used to do for road race in the old days.
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i'm interested in how you did in fact reinforce the triple clamps.
your bike looks good. good luck. which event are you planning on attending?
franey
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We used to split tubing, so we could slide it over the upper tubes, and fit an x-brace across the front of the upper tubes, to keep the upper and lower clamps from rocking. We used industrial screw clamps to pinch the tubing (it was only split on one side....drove it on with a hammer before installing the upper triple clamp). The original lower clamps had a pinch bolt, but the old upper clamps only had the filler plug as the hold-down on the top end of the tubes. You could grab the front wheel between your knees, yank the bars, and reposition the upper clamp/handlebar alignment (back in the bad old days).
Hard to believe we survived, isn't it? Anyway, Noonan helped me out on some FZR1000 forks, so now I've gotta' get working on the frame. This is probably good, because I was going to have to weld the cracked lower end of one of the Katana lower legs (free bikes are never free, are they).
JimL
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thanx.
any more pix of build or reinforced trees?
franey
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FZR1000 front end fitted, and the Katana frame cut down in preparation for reinforcement and tube joins. I had to move the enigne back 1", and down 3/4" in front, in order to clear the frame and be able to turn the forks. The FZR forks have more trail than the Katana, and are a lot bigger. The FZR forks fit the Katana frame with .120" spacer under the lower bearing.
The second pic shows the approximate shape plan for the 1 5/8" top tubes. There will be a 7" radius bend to get around the rear cylinder head and exhaust. I've quite a bit of plate to add around the swing arm pivot area, and cross braces to keep it all stiff. I still haven't figured out how to get the engine package in and out of the frame. The left front side of the engine bay is a problem, because there's a carburetor right where I need a down tube.
onward....
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Looks great Jim! It should make for a very slim package.
What kind of body work do you have planned?
-Scott
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Thanks.... I'm using Charlies Toy fairing (same as last years bike) and Kent's new tailpiece (to fit the current rule). I'm considering carrying some frame into the fairing, to give me a place to mount "stuff" that I'm running out of room for. I have last years fairing, so as soon as I get top tubes tacked in, I'll see how it fits.
This is really fun, whether it works or not!
JimL
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Work done today (photos):
1. This shows my plumb bob, hung through the center of the steering stem. The tie rod (seen behind the wheel) is used to fine adjust vertical true, after the table is trued and blocked, when measuring. You can also see where the front wheel is bolted throught the table frame (table frame length was set to match desired wheel base).
2. Photo shows top tubes fitting method. The plumb bob and level can be seen. This is 6.5" radius bend in my 1 5/8" top tubes.
3. The ends of the top tubes were notched to fit the cut Katana frame. These will make some pretty tight welds after the paint is ground away.
4. Here's the fairing from last years 500cc pushrod bike, fitted around the twin engines. I designed this frame to use EXACTLY the same front and side fairing mounts as last years bike. It will save me some time and effort as I work through this, and I already know my legs and arms fit the 500cc bike. I'm considering adding 1" of seat height (compared to my 500cc bike) to allow a little more room under my right foot for the 4 megaphones.
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Jim, in reference to DSCO7417. The transition between a strong built up section and a tube can be problematic. The abrupt change in section concentrates the flexural stresses at the joint weld. Possible fatigue problems. Sometimes a simple set of gusset plates can be used to dissipate these stresses through strong lap welds to nearby frame members. This takes a big load off of the critical joint weld.
The front is definitely looking stronger. This is one bruiser of a bike. The sound from the four meggas will be great.
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Thanks for the note.... actually the top tubes are just tacked and will come back off for more prep to that area. The bike is still held together by the table and braces. What looks like weld is just the grind marks on the end of the heavy tube (it took a lot of hand shaping to get a tight fit).
I'll use gussets similar to last years bike, and there will also be tubing at the bottom (front end) of the upper tubes, angling down parallel to the cut off box section seen below the joint. That lower tube has to sweep forward, then turn down and back, before passing under the bike. All because of the front carb and exhaust positions....and I'm still hoping to be able to get the engines in and out as a unit. It looks like the lower tubes will have to be 1" .120 wall (same as last years) in order to get smaller radius bends.
JimL
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Nice to see you again today Jim, I enjoyed your stories and information. Looking forward to your progress.
Scott
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Lower tubes on the frame, with the "unusual" forward shape required to clear some of the important bits on the forward engine. We were able to ALMOST get the engines out as a unit...but not quite. And they are really heavy.
I'm mounting the motor plate to the frame, which will allow installation of one engine at a time. I tried taking it apart that way, and I can do it single handed.
More to come....
thanks for the note, Scott...hope your project is going well.
JimL
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More work today. Gussets on some of the main tubes (1/8" steel plate), and many mounts for the engines. I have thick wall tubes welded to the "horizontal" tube, and 10mm studs in the engine blocks. These allow me to "present" the engines (one at a time) into the frame, secure them with nuts, and then run in the many 6mm bolts that hold the blocks to the motor plate. Now I have to start cutting the 1/4" plate overlays, that will be the mount spacing for bearing carriers (for the cog belt drive between engines).
I also built a large mount for the left front of the forward engine (not shown), and will have another one for the left rear of the rear engine, as I get closer. I can get all 4 heads off, with the engines in the bike.....but hoping to get the engines sealed before I go to Speedweek (IF it gets done in time....not sure yet).
So far, the FZR1000 forks are handling the weight well. I have about 2-2 1/2" I can push the front end up, and (of course) the 2 1/2" tire sidewall height. I'm hoping for 4-5" of ground clearance, but may have to shim the fork springs..... anybody ever done that on these upside down forks (first set I've eve had....know NOTHING about them).
Thanks for any knowledge you could pass along.
JimL
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What kind of static sag have you got or what i mean is how much of the travel is taken up by the weight of the engines against the total travel.
You may be able to get heavier or progressive springs for that model rather than trying to shim them,I have had upside downers extended with slugs in the top retaining all the adjustment facilitys albeit only 1.5"-2" and the top being held in 1" billet yolks.
https://www.harris-performance.com/website/acatalog/Online_Catalog_Yamaha_front_fork_springs_107.html
just a thought.
Love the build Jim.
cheersOz
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Jim, why so much ground clearance?? Generally speaking, on bikes the lower the better.
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Oz....so far the engines aren't at full weight and the forks are only moving about an 1/8th of an inch. Maybe I can get some weight on it this weekend and see where I'm at.
Fred....leaving enough room for the bellypan, and I'll have to make space for 4 megaphones, staggered down the right side of the bike. Also....I had a lot of trouble with trailering last years bike...my crew actually got hurt right after tech, what with the bike hanging up during loading (LONG wheelbase). We were responsible for all that blood on the salt, just past the motorcycle shade. I'll have to do something about my trailer setup this year, with both of my rides running 70 inch wheelbase.
Here's a couple of pics of head work....larger valves and seats (the fuzzy pic shows new valves in the middle, and old intake and exhaust on each side of them). Also a pic of the 40mm intake ports and shape mods. My 500 heads will actually have slightly larger valves than my 650 heads, because the 500s are a much higher RPM engine (extreme oversquare design). We are changing to very small stems on the 500 heads, to improve flow and try to keep the intake Mach number down at 11,000 RPM......that was part of the problem last year, when I was even more ignorant than I am now!
Regards, JimL
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You may find that the forks dont need altering if they are only dropping that much i reckon the best bet is load it up with a bit of weight and see how it is.
If it aint broke dont fix it.
And I would hardly say ignorant was an apt discription of your talent I still feel like I am staggering around in the dark with my projects its read a book buy a bit modify this try that and i aint really sure if any of it will get the desired results.
You seem to know exactly what you are at Cool!!
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oz, it truly is a case of knowing exactly where you're at, after you've walked past it about a dozen times!
That's why my hip feels better, these days.....sitting on an empty wallet is easier on the sacroiliac! :lol:
JimL
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Jim
those custom sprockets we had made for ya showed up today.....
Kent
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Thanks, Kent.....gotta' go be a port rat for a few more days. I'll come bye (buy) at first chance.
JimL
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Have you ever noticed how these projects get hung up on the speed bumps?! Seems like nothing happening fast, but many items are "in the works". Kent got some sprockets sourced....here's a quick pic....I just HAD to try it on the rear wheel to see what it looks like.
Looks like trouble....that's what it looks like. :-P
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
Don't worry about the chain sawing thru the swing arm, when it gets enough aluminum sawed away it will be perfect! Amazing how everything turns into a "challenge"!!
Love your build it will be fun to watch at the salt.
Rex
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Thanks....I was thinking about your comment, and realized I could sharpen the bottom of the side plates with my chain saw tool. That'd speed up the "run-in to fit" process!
Tonight I got my rear drive gear, inner bearing race, positioned. The 1/4" steel plate will get additional bracket out to the motor plate, and side supports into the crankcase. It's currently mounted on three studs, set dead level, to provide the end spacing for my coupler shaft. The gear is resting loose in the photo, but fits correctly when held square to the crank (the bolt and spacer is just temporary...I'll be using 1 3/8" shaft). The outer bearing will be a sealed unit, carried on a support mounted to the motor plate.
This was a big step for me.....getting the rear coupling shaft properly located.....I didn't even mind the cold shop, tonight.
JimL
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Jim, several posts ago you mentioned the mach # for a valve. Could you explain this for us backwoods folk?
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I was poking around on some good engine build sites, and ran across the info about piston speed and it's effect on peak engine power. I took that info and went to some of the ex-TRD fellows and learned more about it. The bottom line is that piston speed decides how fast the air is drawn through the intake port (peak speed is the kicker, apprarently). If the ports are small (which boosts flow speed into the cylinder at lower RPM....good for trucks), the airflow becomes too high when RPM gets high. By porting the inlet (bigger) we increase the volume available, while keeping the airflow speed down (same effect as the inlet for supersonic jets).
If the airflow reaches Mach 0.5 (I think they actually hit 0.522 on some engines), the reversion wave (return pressure pulse from closed intake valve) meets the incoming air at about the same speed. This puts the intake port over Mach 1.0, and the air (at that point and also momentarily) becomes non-compressible (it stops). Because horsepower is (in the end) limited by RPM (normal aspirated engines), the stroke has to get very short to keep the piston speed down. Lower piston speed keeps the peak airflow speed from going past 0.5 Mach, for a given port and valve size.
thx, JimL
I was told that the NASCAR engines are butting up against the Mach number, running in the 9200 RPM (or a little higher) range.
My engines are extremely short stroke (the 500 is only 2.047" and the 673s are only 2.48"), which lets me spin them pretty high WITH the new larger ports and valves. Until I learned about the Mach number, I didn't realize how much small increases in valve size could matter.....it adds available RPM, and that starts multiplying the Horsepower calculation.
I kinda' jumbled the sentences....there are folks on here a lot better at this engine stuff, and perhaps they'll straighten me out a bit. Another lesson about learning lessons too late....spent too many years playing with motorcycles and guitars.... to bother learning what I needed!
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These modern engines are new to me. My specialty was A65 BSAs and unit construction Triumphs. The new Triumph is a short stroke 4 valve per cylinder engine. Simply porting the head and adding 1mm larger intake valves made a real big difference at high rpm. Maybe you are on to something.
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Significant change in direction, today. The belt drive was going to be a big problem due to cantilever of the loads. I decided to revert to the original plan of inline spur gears. I've already cut the motor plate (after fitting a 1.75" tool-stock strong-back on the lower edge), I've cut the engine cases, and mocked up the center gear. The photo shows a pair of clutch baskets, but those will actually be just the gear, as the one shown between them. Also, this method will completely enclose the primary drive system, eliminate multiple seals, etc.
Need to tear down some engines and get more clutch basket gears pulled off. This will move along quicker, now, and a lot less pieces to make!
JImL
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Jim,
I like your plan about using a third clutch basket gear. What do you plan to do about the clutch? (if you have already said something just tell me to read the first part of the thread!) Those old diecast baskets have been known to fail and now you are doubling the load. I designed a clutch basket for the old Honda 500 single back in the 80s, they had a habit of breaking off the ears if you added a little horse power, a friend of mine, Jim Rodhen had a machine shop and made them out of 7075-T6 for the White Brothers, they never failed. You may want to consider something like that.
Rex
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Jim,
I like your plan about using a third clutch basket gear. What do you plan to do about the clutch? (if you have already said something just tell me to read the first part of the thread!) Those old diecast baskets have been known to fail and now you are doubling the load. I designed a clutch basket for the old Honda 500 single back in the 80s, they had a habit of breaking off the ears if you added a little horse power, a friend of mine, Jim Rodhen had a machine shop and made them out of 7075-T6 for the White Brothers, they never failed. You may want to consider something like that.
Rex
A friend of mine had the same problem with a H-D Sportster clutch, very similar set up, when he put nitrous to a big bore kit. No aftermarket parts available then. We cured it by turning an aluminum sleeve to surround the fingers. Very light press fit after turning the outside of the fingers on the basket casting true and tig welded to the fingers and hub. Never had another problem and it was a cheap fix. :cheers:
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Thanks for the tip, fellows. I can sleeve the basket ears. Fortuanately, the Silver Wing baskets are pretty decent, due to the heavy touring bike/shaft drive package. It has a full set of shock spriings between the gear and the basket (just like a good clutch disc). These were there to smooth out the impacts onto the ears. I have one that is brand new (springs are nice and snug) which will be the clutch pack for this bike.... new parts always last a little longer, at least.
Whew....one thing after another!!
JimL
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A good shop day :-), and my gear train is together and spinning smoothly. I used 2 35mm, double-row, ball bearings in each coupling gear. I cut a small groove in the center of the gear, then sandwiched a piece of welding wire between the bearings. With the sides of the inner race shimmed into place, the gears will not be able to slip sideways between the plates.
The shafts are fixed (made from 15mm shaft stock) and mounted in double-shear. Both coupling gears are now completely carried by the motor plate (which includes a carrier that is fitted into the case cavity, as shown in one pic). This allows either engine to be removed without disturbing the gear drive package. The outer 1/4" steel plate is also serving as an additional stiffener, for the engine plate. All of the bolts are shouldered (1/2") for precise fit.
In the photos you can see the rear gear shaft sticking out long (have to cut it off and make a retainer). The forward gear shaft is still long on the backside view. The primary drive will be covered with a single large cover, and the back side covers will be three pieces with a seal on the shaft (though the shaft does not rotate).
Gotta' hustle....still a lot to do.
JimL
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Jim,
What is your plan for lub on these gears? Making a case to enclose all of this looks to be a pretty daunting challenge (that how you say Pain in the A$$). Any thought of maybe some dry lube treatment and then some total loss lube? Obviously with some sort of shield to prevent any oil on the salt.
Rex
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There are a lot of horses passing through that little clutch. Lubed gears and a dry clutch might be good.
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The gears are running on sealed bearings, but the gears themselves will have one additional oiler (for the teeth) between them. The original crank gear/basket gear is fed from a groove behind the thrust bearing (which is under the crank gear). There will also be a small sump under the middle gear (lowest). That's all the same method the original bike uses....should be good enough for my short runs.
Re: the clutch....I'll have the basket sleeved and the springs stout. These clutches are pretty similar total disk area to some of the old 4-cylinder bikes (some identical part numbers); we put a lot of horsepower through those with the help of good springs (and that was on the dragstrip!).
Most of all....I have to make it work with what's on hand and what I can modify.
Here's a couple pics showing my shaft retainers and the gear train with the back exposed.
JimL
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Re. the clutch......you can always contact Barnett Tool and Eng. at 805-642-9435 talk to Mike and/or
Pat..............they are the M/C clutch specialists.......they have heavy duty springs......they have
special clutch plates, or they will make what you need........great people and they are into LSR.......
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very interesting build-enjoying the fixes and the engine tech-great thread-keep at 'em! :cheers:
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Primary drive/gear train cover about done....a friend will TIG this for me. The clutch release is working, and lined up perfect. The bolt-on panel (diamond shape) gives access to the front crankshaft nut and oil pump/drive chain. This will allow pre-pumping the oil system, before startup after long shut off periods.
More coming soon (picking up pistons, getting blocks bored, fiberglass about ready, chain drive adaptor shaft done tomorrow.....about to that point when there'll be a lot to do.
"The hurrieder I go, the behinder I get."....that's what mom used to say.
Regards, JimL
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Comparison pic of original piston to new CP 13:1 with .020" overbore. Original piston was 11.1 oz, new piston is 10.4 oz, and has shorter wrist pin. You can really see the strange "22 degree twisted combustion chamber" design, in this photo.
A pic of the valve spring package (about 20lbs more base pressure), springs lighter and fewer winds than stock.
Blocks go for bore job, tomorrow.
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Got the primary case all "flanged" today, so I started on the seat/tailpiece frame tubes, as well as streamlining fit up. The front fender is going to require some massaging, and shortening in front. It will have to wait until the front end is fully loaded (engines, batteries, stuff).
The tail piece will have lower sections added, and will probably have the radiators mounted about as seen in this photo. There's one radiator propped on the pile of boards, under the rear lower side of the tailpiece. They will fit flush, with fans blowing outward (both sides = 2 radiators). This requires full enclosure inside the tailpiece, for the rear tire, and full enclosure under the tail peice sides and rear area.
I'm looking real hard at mounting the front fender to the fork upper tubes, and letting the front wheel have about 1-1.5" travel inside the fender. I can stay within the 1.75" fender-tire rule, and do a better job closing the fairing-upper fender gap. This would also allow the fender sides to be cut, braced, and positioned to almost close the gaps to the fairing edges. The front of the fairing will be completely closed, ahead of the engines, because the radiators won't fit up front.
Thanks, Kent, for the fast work!!
Regards, JimL
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:cheers: Now that is what I would call,,,,,SSSSSmmmmmooooottttthhhh!
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Looks nice Jim!
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The bike looks great Jim!
This continues to be an exciting project to follow.
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Had to post a pic of the REALLY COOL clutch the folks at Barnett put together. It adds an extra friction and steel, and has great clutch springs. I realize most of you have seen plenty of neat stuff, but this is my first ever Barnett clutch!
Big thanks to Mike Taylor; pretty exciting to have real "race" stuff to put in my project....and it's not even homemade by me!! Between AirTech, Web Cam, CP, Noonan, Rick Kemp Heads, and Barnett...(and a patient wife) I'm having a blast with this strange build.
Smiling tonight, JimL :-)
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Very difficult radiator arrangement...still have to cut the holes out of the tailpiece, and then make a lower tailpiece. It will take some tricky ducting....using a fan in each side of the tail piece, drawing air from the pocket in the leg cutout. Radiators will need upper outlets moved to the top, and a little additional work, plus a header tank above the front engine.
More to come....
JimL
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As I have noted many times, for power transfer be it cables and/or clutches Barnett products is the way to go. Mike Taylor (owner and president) of Barnett has been into M/C and sidecar racing his whole live
For many years Mike raced as my passenger in the annual Pikes Peak Hill Climb, he also roadraced sidecars
and rode as passenger at Bonneville with Larry Coleman (when BNI allowed passengers back in the 1980's).
In addition Barnett has been our main sponsor for our LSR effort for over 35 years........Many thanks,
Mike!!!!
Good luck with your 1350c.c. Pushrod bike
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Jim,
Have you ever considered going with a water tank(s) instead of the radiators? You are probably going to need some weight any way over the rear wheel, 10-15 gallons of water might be better than the radiators and their associated aero drag.
Just a thought.
Rex
You are banging this cat! I am merely holding its head!
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Well folks....sometimes a bad idea goes REALLY bad. I was crankin' along, welding up tubes, bending pipe, hanging radiators....figuring I could fiberglas up some cool ducts to get air from the fans to the cores.
Then I noticed I couldn't adjust the rear wheel all the way back and still have any suspension.
OOOOPS!! thank goodness for hand-held air powered hacksaws, and good bi-metal blades....
Photos below shows the radiators moved into the sides of the tailpiece (where I've got aobut 7" of depth). I'll be able to put the fans right onto the radiators without a bunch of extra work.
I'm also going to be able to close up the bottom of the tailpiece, reduce the holes in the sides of the tailpiece (for hot air relase), and keep the weight a little farther forward (remembering the "issues" the KZ1000 had in CHP service, which led to the articulated tail box with shock absorber damping).
Rex....I will try to have a few gallons of water on board, if I can find enough real estate. I still have to build an oil tank under the engines (I'm forced to use a low mounted "wet sump" because I ran out of money and ideas to run a true dry sump.) I also have to make room for 2 batteries (one for starters and fans, and one for ignition).
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
Awesome build... :cheers:
John
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Thanks for the continued interest, fellas.....tonight I made a hole in the engine, which led to the chain getting hooked on. I also started making the closure box that fits into the engine, for the sprocket. The pics tell the story, showing the sprocket / flywheel relationship, and then the opening angles for the sprocket.
JimL
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Chain drive shaft is mounted, seals are in the carriers, shaft uses 1.25" sleeves to hold the sprocket in place (and keep the shaft in position while keeping the oil in the engine). The seals are 1.25" transmission input shaft seals, good enough for my 5000 rpm maximum countershaft speed. The sheet metal case looks a little tacky, but it's solid and fits tight...seals well, and clears the flywheel by .003".
Clutch basket reinforcement ring is made, and Barnett clutch and stiff springs installed (considerable increase in disc area, due to extra disks and plate). The ring is .75" wide x. 375" thick T6061. I still have to mount it to the basket ears.
Pistons are in both engines.....just about ready to get them measured and sealed. Still working on the oil system, intake manifolds, exhaust, and various bits.
Regards, JimL
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OK....coupling gears are sealed in, engines are together (heads not fully torqued, will be removed to get measured and sealed). Oil lines figured out as shown below, made the internal connectors for oil pump feed to the remote filter and rear trans countershaft oil supply.
Building the oil sump this week (with an electric headting element), then intake manifolds, headers and megaphones, mount coils, batteries (3), water tanks, shifter, pegs, all that stuff. Radiators are rebuilt, and new SPAL fans are ready to mount. Soon it will be time to get cranking on modify work on all the fiberglass.
Regards, JimL
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Interesting stuff... I watch your progress.
Last week I was passed by a guy on a CX 500 bike. Looked restored , very nice shape
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Jim, it's looking better all the time. Me thinks you're going to have a lot of fun! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Oiling system complete tonight. Pumps from the front engine into the remote filter, and then to the main galleys, trans, and gauge. I had to "double deep" the front sump in order to get even depth between the engines.
....more to do
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Getting closer! :cheers:
I'm looking forward to seeing and hearing your bike.
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Thanks for the nice words and encouragement. Some days it's a struggle, some days ok.
I'm fitting the fiberglass, now, and had to move the footpegs (again) and will have to move the oil filter (???where???). The belly pan is a tough work out, due to the low frame rails because some fool just HAD to put two engines where one should be. There will be some holes in the right side, to get the exhaust out of course.
I couldn't use the TZ750 throttle because nobody wants to tackle the cable (bringing it back to you Kent). Barnett can solve the cable, so onward we go, and it'll be easier to fit up than 4 individual runs.
At least the rear brake works well, and there's plenty of room for the shift linkage. I need 3 batteries on the left side (too heavy on the right, and a big electric water pump (Dedenbear), two fans (SPAL), two starters, two ignitions). Maybe ballast as well, but it may have to be in my left boot! :lol:
The good news.....it's a sub-200 record and an obviously sub-200 bike....I can get tires!!
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Sidebar to the project....a pic of the tiiny little "shop cat" that has adopted our back door. Looks like this is as big as she gets, and tomorrow night I've got to trap her and get her to the vets and take care of some trouble.
Nice to have someone drop in to talk to you while you're working.....even if it's only to say, "FEED ME, FEED ME!"
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Looking good jim wish i was coming this year!
Carefull with the little critter it might know Judo.
ttfn oz
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lookin good buddy... i got those intake rubbers for ya and also the jets.... remember i have that solder pot and can make you the cables or ya can just borrow it and make em yourself...
kent
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Exhaust pipes coming along.....belly pan will need a little work, and a little bulge in the fairing. Tuning for 10-11000 RPM, here.
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Jim,
Do I detect a slight megaphone on the end of your headers?? That thing should really sound great at 10,000!!! Progress is looking good and thanks for keeping us posted.
Rex
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Jim
Very intriguing! What will it sound like? Like a 4-cylinder? Or are the motors phased to "echo" each other? Or what? I'm excted to see and hear it.
Stan
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We are ALL wondering what it might sound like (hope it's not just BANG...CRUNCH). The firing order is:
Forward cylinder fires,
180 degrees later the third cylinder fires,
then 100 degrees after that, the #2 cylinder fires,
and then 180 degrees after that, the #4 cylinder fires.
weird.... :?
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Jim I am sure it will sound like this when revving it up.....Vroooom Vrooom..Vrooom...Vrooom :cheers: :cheers:
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I aint no expert but why the,what seems to me an odd firing sequence?
Oz
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Cylinders are at at 80 degrees angle.....only engine I've ever seen like that. The stroke is so short, they don't seem to vibrate much. Expect it'll be worse with the higher compression and almost no flywheels.
desperately trying to get this thing fired up by the end of the month....
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Had to move the #2 megaphone outboard about 3/4", in order to get the tip flush to the fairing. The rest of the fairing mounts came together well, so tomorrow I'll move on to the ground stand. Need that done so I can fit the belly pan to the exhaust pipes. The bike will be about 4" higher than the position shown, once it's sitting on the tires (ordered BT003s....though this thing isn't likely to get close to 200, unless I can figure out how to bore and stroke these engines someday).
Happy fathers' day.
JimL
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A little more progress....
Up on wheels/tires, belly pan reworked to fit the pipes, intake manifolds are on (but need to modify the rear one). Battery tray has to be redone (I'm going to put the batteries more left, to balance the bike and get easier access. It will also make room for the water pump where I really wanted it.
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This is becoming a high density bike. Tonight was the 3rd (and final) refitting of the battery boxes. There is 18 feet of 3/4" water hose running through this rig.....may not even need the radiators :roll:. The Dedenbear water pump lives under the batteries, between the engines. The water lines are routed "Indy" style (x-flowed).
Throttles are working well, thanks to the cable package from Barnett. Need two more velocity stacks.
Last years tank is reworked to clear the handlebars.
Gotta' keep moving.
Regards, JimL
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JimL,
This has been a a mass of very interesting and nice work in a short time.
Thank you for posting. Hope to see and hear it some day. Bonneville this year?
harv
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Jeez Jim they used to use the CX range for dispatch riders around London I dont reckon there is enough room left in there for a sandwich never mind a package.You really have made a stunning bike there!!
Oz
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Thanks fellows....I have pre-entered under 1581 (Bike). I really need to get it done, because I robbed parts from last years single engine bike and there's no way to get that one back together in time!
JimL
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A few pics of the lower tailpiece. I still have to section the upper, to make it match the width of the lower (at the the back; see bottom picture). The upper tailpiece is pushed out at the radiators, to allow good airflow from the fans. The rear tire cutout is set pretty close, to reduce the amount of air dragged into the internal fender.
- You can see the planned rear tire spat (below the belly pan, ahead of the rear tire). Another try at reducing drag. This will be quick removable to get the beast on and off a trailer.
- The radiators will be baffled to the inside of the upper tailpiece skin, to prevent hot air return through the cores.
- Square cutouts in lower are access to chain adjustors....these will get removable covers to help the sealing.
Regards, JimL
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OK....the answer to the oil pump question: YES!! One pump pressurizes both engines easily. I used my removeable access plate, and a modified pump sprocket (big nut welded on), which allowed me to run the pump with my air drill. I kept adding oil until I'd found all my pressure leaks (left a few lines loose in the excitement) and the pump quit sucking air. With 2 gallons of oil in the engines, it maintains 40 PSI with the air drill anywhere from half speed to max (I can see the bypass open up and flow oil). With the air drill turning over slow, it makes 5-10 psi... I doubt I can make it idle that slow.
I had a few weld pinhole leaks, on my primary drive cover and my home-made deep sumps, which I fixed successfuly with FIPG. I had to lay the bike over, to get the oil away from the pinholes, and then blew brake cleaner through the holes so I could fix them.
It could have been worse!! Now it's time to mount up the electrics and get this mess fired up.
JimL
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Bike fired up tonight and ran well for a few minutes. It broke a tooth on the forward basket gear, which went through the front crankshaft, blew the forward trans carrier out of the cases (breaking the cases), and the forward cylinder quite running. Damage went through all the gear train, and hit the rear engine as well.
I'm hoping to prepare this chassis to run as a single engine at some time in the future; I still have my 500cc engine from last year, and I think I can save enough parts to build a 750 class engine on my one remaining crankcase. Thanks for the interest and ideas over the past year.
Regards, JimL
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Jim,
I know that many of us have shared your enthusiasm during this project. I know I was excited to read that the "bike fired up tonight and ran well for a few minutes". You aren't alone in your disappointment that it expired soon after.
Your plans to move forward, when others might despair, indicate the volume of your character. I hope you get it sorted and bring your ingenuity back to the salt soon.
Cheers,
Scott
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Dam Jim that really bites.
After all your hard work and ingenuity I hate to see you have to sideline/shelve this project.
If you need xtra engines check the Las Vegas craigslist as I saw a couple of the CXs on there recently.
View this as a bit on water on the course that WILL dry up!
Keep the faith.
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Jim, i love following your project, and anxious to see the saga
evolve......
as evidenced by your accomplishment to date, you WILL succeed...!
Joe :)
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Damn that sucks!! Was sure fun to watch this build as you were doing it. Hope to see it one day resurrected.
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Jim,
Like everyone that has been following your build I am very sorry to hear of the gear failure and its domino affect on the rest of the engine combination. Hope you perserver and get this thing beaten into a racer. Like everyone else I want to see it on the salt.
Rex
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Keep on Keeping on its got to be done I want to see this beast on the salt!!
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Jim, I have followed your build from day one. I am so sorry that it broke before you got to race it. Keep up the good work. Keep us posted!!
Fred
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Looks like you have room in the chassis for an electric motor and batteries. Just a thought. 2011!
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Jeeess, What a major setback! I really feel for you and sure don't want to be in your situation. I've been there and after 3 rebuilds in less than 500 miles I know what long time it can take to get the spirit back. I sure hope you're not alone like me and have someone that can bury their right foot in your nobler parts once in a while to get you in gear again. I think it's safe to say that all your forum followers we'll be cheering you along as good as we can. Just keep us on line. :|
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Jim, that matter of connecting two or three engines seems so simple but it has been a major headache for a lot of expert builders. Your bike build diary has been very educational and I hope you eventually get the big monster sorted.
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I learned that the problem was my design..... no dampening (cushion) between the cranks. All was well until I got RPM and throttle added together....then the big wide teeth on the crank ate the first teeth they could get at (the engines turned the number one basket gear into a "cushion"). When the power pulses were small (such as idle), there wasn't enough energy to hammer the teeth over.
There will be other ways to skin this cat....but for now, I'll see if the rear engine survived enough to get the bike to Speed Week.
....heading for the shop :wink:......JimL
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I dunno if it will apply in your case, but coupling 2 motors is a tricky thing. When Don Vesco built the twin Yamaha 650's with his 750cc kits on them the thought was to have them run as a 4 cylinder with alternate firing, front and rear. The first run on the dyno with custom gearing between the motors the custom gears shattered. The reason turned out that the motors were causing the gears to shake as they went from power to compression, constantly working against each other, if I am explaining this properly. The answer (I believe from Russ Collins) was to run the engines as one so they pull together without working the coupling mechanism against itself. The gears were replaced with sprockets and chain and the unit held together......for a while. The next problem was getting the chain cooled as the next run on the Yamaha dyno, the chain got hot and disintegrated before the motors could be shut down. It was running a turbo and alcohol and was about 180 hp at 5000 or so (if memory serves correctly). The TX700 race motors became available at that time so the development of the twins ended.
Just a thought. Sorry to hear your plight! :-(
Matt Guzzetta
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Fluid coupling?
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Matt.....thank you! That sounds exactly like what I did. When I pulled it all apart I found every single motor plate bolt backed out, oil leaking everywhere, and the 3/8" shouldered bolts (with Nylock nuts) had come loose enough that the plates and gears were moving! I think the first failure was a forward trans plate bolt into the #1 coupling gear.
I've got the rear engine about ready to go back in, with a standard primary cover and a Barnett clutch. The damage was contained to the front two coupling gears and the forward crank gear. I've already added tubes and mounts to the frame (ditched the motor plate), converted back to stock oil system, found my internal water leak, and got my friend started on the case plug to fill the hole I'd made for the #3 coupling gear. I'm hoping to have it running late tomorrow; plan to run APS-PG-750 if it doesn't break again. If it breaks, I have my freshly built 500cc engine ready to plug in, which would run against my own record.
Even before reading your post, I was thinking that pairing them as a V4, with pistons moving together, will be the best plan. I'm pretty sure the right-side engine can have it's crank installed backwards, putting the drive splines facing. I'll make a cushioned coupler (similar to a boat outdrive piece) and take the drive via belt to a Harley clutch and transmission. I'll probably put the intakes in the exhaust side, on the right engine, just as Honda did when they used the 500cc engine for a flat-tracker. It'll be easier to bend exhaust around, between the engines, than bend carbs.
All I need now is a winning lottery ticket....JimL
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Jim it was good to see you and chat a little about your project. I wish you the best of luck getting a running bike to Bonneville this year.
Scott
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This might work....APS-PG-750....
fixed the cases, oil leaks, water leaks, welded in tubes and mounts, got it running tonight. Try this link:
http://home.earthlink.net/~leinfam/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/mov07875.mpg (http://home.earthlink.net/~leinfam/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/mov07875.mpg)
I still have to patch the holes in the fairing (where the other exhaust were), mount the screen, spray some paint, finish building the MPS-PG-500 bike. It's ok....we've got days to go!!
JimL
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WOW,
One great build with ingenious ideas one after the other, no problems, only solutions.
Appears that the Salt Fever is starting to kick into high gear.
Best of Luck,
raycwheeler usa
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Sounds wicked Jim. Have fun at Speedweek. You deserve it. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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What an incredible build, a lot of guys would have thrown in the towel the minute the motor came apart, you just picked up the pieces and kept working toward the ultimate goal of making it to SpeedWeek.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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To fill in the repair story a little bit, here's a pic of the aluminum plate used to fill the hole in the case. This was the hole I made for the #3 coupling gear (just forward of the rear crankshaft). Odd fit....has .030" taper thickness from top to bottom (that happens when you file parts by hand).
Thanks for all the kind words and support.....hope to have some time to visit a little, this year. Last year I had to "in and out" with just two runs. :-P
JimL
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Wow, just Wow! When I read this morning that you had the bike running my jaw dropped. Your drive and tenacity are incredible. Best of luck and have fun.
:cheers:
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A problem is an opportunity. A mess is a pile of opportunities. Well done, turning problems into a "rapid learning phase."
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Very glad to see you figured out how to made lemonade out of lemons.
Love the excellent build and your determination.
See you on the salt.
Gary
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Thanks, folks. Big relief tonight.....fitted the chain and spun the rear wheel up. The chain run is dead smooth and straight with my 18/42 gear combo. Heres' a pic from rear angle. The seal panels around the radiators mate to the inside of the AirTech tailpiece.
We fixed a small exhaust leak, mounted chain guard, and it's ready for fit/finish work.
Regards, JimL
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:-DExcellent sounds great really crisp good on ya!!
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Thanks to Shaun Austin for the overnight paint job (big project). Still need some trim paint, stickers, drain the tank, check valve lash....and finish the other bike. :-P
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Great looking bike Jim and congratulations to you for sticking with it. Have a blast on the salt. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Nice
Well you should be easy enough to find
G
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This was fun and (a little too much) exciting. My first test ride had to be my first pass....there was no place to try it out at home. It felt good running up to the 1 mile, so I tried working it up a bit. I got into some odd handling and backed down some, resulting in a 136 pass and in to impound. The return run felt good, so I ran up around 3/4 throttle and went easy at 145. Wishing to make a more respectable record, I qualified on my own record with a difficult run that I thought was problems with the course. The next morning I ran the edge and the bike felt perfect until about 10,500 RPM (still not full throttle). About 1/8th mile from the 3, it felt like something kicked the front tire to the right. I caught it and shoved back, but it did it all the way to the 3 and a little beyond. My return at 147.846 gave me 144.360 for the record.
After the fact, I discovered rubber marks inside the front fender, left forward. I didn't do any stiffening on the front fender, and I think it's folding sideways at speed (10,500 is about 152-155). I'll do something different, and buy some higher gearing so I can use full throttle...this was all I had after the twin-engine project bombed and I'd had tiny sprockets made!
It all worked out ok, as the runs required exactly matched the available days off from work!
Here's a pic of Dan Wagner and I, after our records.
Regards, JimL
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Congrats Jim, you just killed my old BMW record!! I was rooting for you all the way :cheers: :cheers:
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Congrats Jim, I like the Orange Paint Job,, nice and crisp..
Randy, records are only on loan, I am sure you will be back for more records soon.
Charles
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Congrats to both of you. Depending on how we do this year with our "naked" blast I might be coming after Dan next year with a fairing on our bike!!! :-D
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That would be good. I think this class should be around 133-135 or so, to be more realistic. I think 500's were going that fast 50-60 years ago, with just 2-valves and one cylinder. I remember a Manx running over this speed in 1969, and current "vintage" race CB450s are pushing 150!
We still have some learnin' to do, it appears!