Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: racer x on January 21, 2010, 10:01:33 AM
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I thought I would start a thread about the dreaded "OIL DOWN"
We all know what it is . it is a big waist of time. I think we should discuss it before the next one.
Someone asked once What are we doing? Having grown up in a garage I thought everyone new how to clean up oil with kitty litter. Apparently not.
So first thing is the basics.
Oil on the ground We need to get it up. So we spread kitty litter on the oil and sweep it up . But it is not that simple. Kitty litter will soak up oil. But it takes a while . Well I want to race . So we have to grind the kitty litter into the oil . That grinding scrapes the concrete and cleans up the oil. It is called the kitty litter shuffle.
Then it has to be swept up.
There are other ways to get oil up but we can not use chemicals or heat because of cost and the fragile state of the Maxton serface.
So when oil is down .Everyone needs to spring into action. People power is the key So pick a job .
1 pouring kitty litter
2 grinding kitty litter
3 sweeping it up
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I'll take #2
Now who is this girl, Kitty??? :-D
Bill
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After over 40 years of cleaning my shop floor I have found Rice Hulls work the best for me. Try some sometime in you garage if you have oil stains. Pour a little diesel on it then cover it with rice hulls and let it soak in good before you sweep it off. YMMV
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Bill, as the generator of one of the longest oildowns in ECTA history -- I should think you'd volunteer for all three duties.
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Bill, as the generator of one of the longest oildowns in ECTA history -- I should think you'd volunteer for all three duties.
OUCH :cheers:
Just curious,, what was the estimated distance of the infamous oil down ? (from where to where ? )
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After over 40 years of cleaning my shop floor I have found Rice Hulls work the best for me. Try some sometime in you garage if you have oil stains. Pour a little diesel on it then cover it with rice hulls and let it soak in good before you sweep it off. YMMV
Many things work. What we need is cheap and works. Because we need a enough to cover about half a mile. maybe a foot wide. I cant even imagine how much that cost.
If anyone knows how the club can save money . Sing out.
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good thread, racer x.
what if every racer had to bring 1 bag of speedy dry with them to pass tech? that takes care of the cost. if it is used oh-well, if not bring it next time.
i work at a very high end golf coarse, we have all kinds of equipment that is used to top dress the greens [put fine sand on the greens to fill in holes, ect from the basic maint of said sports turf] this said we have a few pieces of equipment that brush in the sand and then remove it. i believe the idea is the same. and can be done manually .
add speedy dry, shuffle, grind, broom in the speedy dry, then pile and remove speedy dry.
i do have one question....what do you do with it when your done? we will need some kind of containers to store it, and a way to get rid of it.
it wil be interesting to see were this goes!
RUNT
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Why don't you guys just run on dirt like us? :evil: :evil: :evil: 8-)
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I am just a dirt kinda guy. But Doug has a good point, as I believe NHRA uses or used to use rice hulls to clean up oil downs at the drags. You might contact them, or a local drag strip, and get the skinny on how to clean oil downs up fast, and not leave a residue on the track, especially with the use of synthetic oil. Although I personally don't think oil downs and fast clean up go hand in hand.
Tom G.
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I don't know the exact length -- but it was from somewhere like half-track at Maxton to well past the lights -- maybe 3/4 mile, maybe more. Ask Todd Dross -- he's got photos.
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My only experience with oildowns is in the shop, but.... what about using three vehicles to clean up? First one would use a modified hitch mounted salt spreader to lay down the kitty litter (slim knows what I am talking about), second one would follow with a lawn style roller filled with sand the crush and grind the stuff in, and then barter the usage of a street sweeper to sweep up. Or just use elbow grease to sweep. Just a thought, not sure how that would would work, but that's my 17 year old's opinion.
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I am just a dirt kinda guy. But Doug has a good point, as I believe NHRA uses or used to use rice hulls to clean up oil downs at the drags. You might contact them, or a local drag strip, and get the skinny on how to clean oil downs up fast, and not leave a residue on the track, especially with the use of synthetic oil. Although I personally don't think oil downs and fast clean up go hand in hand.
Tom G.
I believe the most effective method the NHRA uses these days is a big fat giant fine for those who spoil the fun for everyone. Sure do see a lot less spills since they adopted that rule. NOT that I am recommending it as the best approach...just saying.
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Why don't you guys just run on dirt like us? :evil: :evil: :evil: 8-)
Because we have Pavement to run on !!!!
Charles
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NHRA uses rice hull ash because it absorbs better then kitty litter on pavement. SCTA uses kitty litter on the dry lake and on the salt as it works best for us. One thing when using rice hull ash is to wear safety goggles as it will dry your eyes out fast and you will need an eye flush and eye drops.
Something I would like to see is engine diapers, catches most oil and many engine parts from getting you expensive Bonneville tires.
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So pick a job .
2 grinding kitty litter
I'll take #2
Now who is this girl, Kitty ??
Now that is the funniest thing I've read all day ...
:-D
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I don't know the exact length -- but it was from somewhere like half-track at Maxton to well past the lights -- maybe 3/4 mile, maybe more. Ask Todd Dross -- he's got photos.
I'll have to pull up the run log, but it wasn't 1/2 track. :roll: It was towards the end and I didnt realize there was oil until I stopped on the turn around at long shut-down. I just thought my up-pipe blew off the plenum again.
Run was a 228mph naked, so had to be after the 3/4 mark
Sorry again everyone :oops:
Bill
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I think Bill is correct, I recall it was from about 3/4 mile marker to long shut-down turnout.
:cry:
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It comes down to racers from the pits to the starting line putting down their wrenches and getting to the spill. Yes Bill, you were there right away. We have plenty "litter" (most of the time) spreaders, brooms , shovels and blowers . What we need are bodies! No one (me) should have to scold people in the pits and at the starting line to help . I feel like I'm back teaching (32yrs) again. Nooooooo!!!!
Rice hulls???? Do you want me hacking goobers on the timing computer??
See you from the tower!
John
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While you are right we need to address the clean up, prevention (as best as can be) is the answer. Motorcycles have an enclosed bottom fairing (required at most club road racing events and up). If you are running naked at least you can blanket the bottom end. Cars/trucks have a diaper. It will not stop an oil down, but will limit the amount. I personally am thankful for the roadracing rule. I picture framed cylinder #3 and #4 at a Wera event at Rockingham headed into NASCAR #1 (showing my age here). Rod came through the bottom. 95% of the oil stayed in the fairing and I coasted to a stop uninjured, except for the wallet. I'm sure the guy's behind me were happy also. Just my 1 and 1/2 cents worth.
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Just somemore randome thoughts
When you grind the kitty litter it not only gets up the oil it becomes more absorbent. So after the kitty litter is down . The next thing to do is push it along the oil slick . as it grinds into a fine powder it just moves along cleaning till it looks dark.
Yes an oil catch pan or blanket is a definite good idea. Keeping oil off the track in the first place is optimal. Remember the track is very old concrete and we need to protect it any way we can.
I don't want to start making rules. Please don't start that.
If you have double the original horsepower of you vehicle car,truck or bike.Think about an oilcatch . For the good of man kind and everyones safety.
I was also thinking about treating an oil down like a grade school fire drill. All hands on deck kinda thing. Maybe blow a horn or something and everyone will know what to do . If you have a car with an empty seat pick up some one and drive slowly to the spill.( No riding in truck beds or speeding)
Just to get the people power mobilized.
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Rice hulls???? Do you want me hacking goobers on the timing computer??
See you from the tower!
John
LOL. Nope, just trying to help.
Tom G.
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Rice hull ash for oildowns I think was a secret at Lions drag strip . In 1965 we were there and my friend broke his motor . I asked about the white powder they were putting down . The guy said , well it won't hurt , you fellows are from the east coast and gave me the tag from the bag . I gave the tag to the manager at Atco and it spread from there . They used to use dry cement at the Indy 500 . Rice hull ash blows off the asphalt easily easily and is organic .
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I mentioned Rice Hull Ash in post #13. Yes Lions was the 1st and if I remember correctly we got the info on it from a local oil company. Great stuff and like I said don't get it in your eyes.
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at Lions drag strip . In 1965 we were there and my friend broke his motor .
That's cool 8-)
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First off, thanks to John Eken for the push along spreader that we used to put out litter. The hopper is small and I thought about bringing down one of the larger ones we use for our horse paddocks that is still small enough to attach a handle for hand pushing: but they broadcast too wide an area. The one John supplied (I heard it was John) spread an almost perfect car tire width.
Second, the idea of folks bringing litter or oil dry is outstanding. Not only does it take time to go get more cat litter in Laurinburg, we pretty much "clean" the stores out on an unfortunate saturday. We could even start a SCAM fund - Scott (Griswold) Concrete Ashtray Maintenance fund.
Third, prevention and fines? One thing about being at the end of the course is usually being one of the first to the broken vehicle and driver/rider. The vast majority of the time, the competitor is nearly as upset about what has happened to the track as what has happened to their machine. Personel well-being as we all know is a very distant third.
Yes we need everyone who can shuffle out there dancin' and God bless particularly those of you I see in leathers and driving suits - yeah you have a more immediate interest in a clean track,. but in those clothes! Special love to anyone bringing water. Please also remember that some folks not shuffling may not be able to or may have been weed eating or some other noxious duty all day friday.
I'll shut up for now
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Well I started it so count me in for a bag :lol:
I will also be there Thursday afternoon with weed eater in hand.
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At SCTA we have 10 5 large mouth fuel cans we fill with the oil dry. It's easy for oil spills and clean up. You can buy a pallet of oil dry from most NAPA stores. The starting line should a 5 gal container of oil dry and a couple of brooms and waste oil dry barrels as well. The emergency trailer we have for SCTA carries a lot of support equipment and handles most clean ups on the track. Joe and Keith have seen our trailer. There is even a knock down car Dolly to remove vehicles from the course in case of flats or locked up rear ends etc. Putting it together takes a lot of thought and time to make sure everything has a place so you can always find it when needed.
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ok, i was out hunting today and ran across a seeder that is 8 feet wide and looks like it needs a home, i have to take a minute and see if this will work, but if it does i will see if it can spread kitty liter / speedy dry. and if it does, its going to maxton.
what is the record for a grandy seeder anyway!
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Guys....... Slow down, take a deep breath!!! First, don't do ,buy or bring anything without contacting Keith or Joe. We have limited storage so an 8ft wide spreader might be overkill. Our spills, at most, are inches not feet wide. The spreader I found and Joe bought holds one bag of litter and ECTA can supply the litter. We've gone entire meets without using a bag. As I said before, getting the "people power" (being PC) to respond when an oil down occurs is the most important. It's been gratifying to see the the numbers of "shufflers" increasing over the last several meets. Keep it up!
See you from the tower!
John
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Guys....... Slow down, take a deep breath!!! First, don't do ,buy or bring anything without contacting Keith or Joe. We have limited storage so an 8ft wide spreader might be overkill. Our spills, at most, are inches not feet wide. The spreader I found and Joe bought holds one bag of litter and ECTA can supply the litter. We've gone entire meets without using a bag. As I said before, getting the "people power" (being PC) to respond when an oil down occurs is the most important. It's been gratifying to see the the numbers of "shufflers" increasing over the last several meets. Keep it up!
See you from the tower!
John
x2
terry
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What would all of the competitors say if ECTA mandated engine diapers for bikes and cars...the ones I sell to the NHRA drivers start at $200 and go up from there. This would minimize the clean up time, if any. It would also reduce the chance of an oil fire as the oil would not be able to get to the headers as easy.
The answer I have received most often is: Hell No...it costs too much!!!
What does the list say???
joe
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I am not a fan of "Mandatory" when it comes to diapers. I am 100% against fines or penalties for an "accident" if a Bike or Car does have an oil down,,, the owner/driver/rider is surely going to have a bad day and a big dent in the wallet... no reason to add more insult to it,,, they sure did not plan for that to happen.
Over the last few years I can only remember 4 or 5 oil downs that shut the track down for more than 10 minutes.
I think our current system is working just fine. We can always monitor the situation and revisit it in the future if it becomes a problem.
Charles
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I have seen a few oil downs from1/2 to 1.25 long 1-2 hour clean ups .Most of the short oil downs are (street)/rookie cars.
As long as clean up support is there and there is not a rash of oil downs what we have works.I'm sure there is a better way.Not sure what would be cost efective,ie a drop shoot with a sweeper,burn it off.
just my thoughts
terry
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dont worry i would never just show up with anything without going threw the proper channels.
as for bringing speedy dry, i never leave home without it. my race trailer does double duty as my hunting camper, last year i had 2 gallons of cranburry juice fall out of the cabinet, by the time i arrived at the camp i had a nice 1/4 inch pink slushy threw the whole garage section, had to heat it up to defrost it, and then used the speedy dry to get it all soaked up. at least the camper smelled nice for the week of hunting! i cant say the same for me.
as i stated before i spend alot of time in the woods, so my mind does silly things sometimes, ok most of the time!
RUNT
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A couple of hundred for a diaper vs $700.00 each for Bonneville tires. I would opt for the diaper.
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"...last year i had 2 gallons of cranburry juice fall out of the cabinet..."
Bummer, I guess you had to drink the Vodka straight.
DW
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ABSOLUTLY!
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Don't you mean Absolute ?
:wink:
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prefer Svedka, but Absolute, WORKS JUST FINE!
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prefer Svedka, but Absolute, WORKS JUST FINE!
or free :-D
terry
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If I ever go 150 or more on a bike you can bet I'll be wearing a diaper with Absolut in reserve!
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From a motorcycle point of view. I don't want oil on the track .But I really don't want it on mt tires. It will cost me at least 175 dollars to put an oil catch pan on my bike . But it is a self preservation kinda thing .
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Two thoughts:
1) When at the start line during an oil down communication is not so great. I've been there for 45 minutes before, way in the back, when I finally walked around to say hey, what's the hold up & then been told oh we have an oil down & they're cleaning up. Maybe we need someone to ride the lines picking up shufflers & to better convey the situation. (don't bother stopping to pick me up :-P I'm just saying... :-D )
2) I'd be interested in more information about these vehicle oil diapers. I don't think we're at a mandate stage but readily available information and sources as well as possibly moving towards "strongly encouraged" I think would be a good place to start especially to those pushing the limits. The first thing I want to know is potential risk vs protection.
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I was thinking of blowing a horn . Like a two toot signal that will alert everyone that there is an oil down . But Not be mistaken for a crash in any way.
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I was thinking of blowing a horn . Like a two toot signal that will alert everyone that there is an oil down . But Not be mistaken for a crash in any way.
All it takes is one loud engine & we'll never hear the horn. That's why I suggested someone riding the line for notification & pick up. When the startline crew high tails it to the scene of the incident the rest of us are left standing around at the start line with no information. I speak from experience. There's been more then one time (several) that I should have been helping at the other end of the track but was left standing at the end of the staging lane with no information & no transportation.
I understand our startline gang is going to jump in & help but once a known oil down situation occurs it would be advantageous to recruit some folks that otherwise wouldn't be doing the shuffle to notify the start/staging line & pick up would be shuffle volunteers. (spectators, parents, those that can't be out in the heat but have a car & could transport folks...and once everyone is on site one or two could bring along some water. Y'all sure look hot & thirsty out there! :-P )
Just an observation from the other end of the track! :)
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What about leaving a glove or something to mark your spot in line and puttering down the track on the race bike? Would that get out of hand and cause accidents and traffic problems ?
And Ya that was me point a few posts ago. When there are cars going to the spill Pick up volunteers if you have a empty seat. I have also been at the start and not known about the oil down at all
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Thats why SCTA uses a CB radio so all of the racers know whats going on.
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Thats why SCTA uses a CB radio so all of the racers know whats going on.
They won't let me race with a CB on my busa! :-P
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What about leaving a glove or something to mark your spot in line and puttering down the track on the race bike? Would that get out of hand and cause accidents and traffic problems ?
And Ya that was me point a few posts ago. When there are cars going to the spill Pick up volunteers if you have a empty seat. I have also been at the start and not known about the oil down at all
and that reflects the situation that some of us are in .... we are a race crew of 1. When I am at Maxton, I am either getting ready for a run, in prestage or stage lanes, or helping some else get ready. I like to help when possible, but it does get difficult being in more than one place at a time.
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WOW this has gotten to be a lively winter time topic.
OK So this would be the chain of events.
Engine goes boom
And short shutdown sees smoke and oil on the track .
They radio to the start line and tower that there is oil down.
Maybe people in a couple cars give a "toot toot" on there horns .
Everyone starts toward the spill and get into cars or ride on bikes over and clean it up :cheers:
Maybe if you spill oil you can bring a bag or two of kitty litter to replace the stuff used .
And wrap up the engine in a diaper next time.
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How about a concrete bucket and a short (8' or so) flag pole with some signal flag to put up at the start line when the course is shut down for clean-up?
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The horn is only for emergencies to notify fire and rescue. Flags can't be seen over long distances. When I've been working the computer in the tower and there is an oil down Joe meets Keith on the track then radios me to make the CB announcement."Attention in the Pits" "Attention in the pits" "We need bodies on the track ...blah blah.. blah blah ..blah blah!!! I can't be more specific. Maybe I could blow a bugle like the Chinese communists did in 1950 Korea? ( just being stupid Chinese communists, Love ya!!!) I would think the CB radios are the best way. I've ridden through the pits many times and Not heard the chatter of radios in many areas. Radio Shack sells a radio, antennae and external speaker for less that $100. Turn on and tune in racers!!! The CB is the best way. (my computer is going to fail and my TV explode I just know it!!!!!)
Se Y u F om t e To w r ( h s it I k ew it!)
J hn
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ECTA usually has a radio/speaker/battery stationed at the staging line -- so announcements made on the system are available there. but -- it's one radio, not a big PA system -- so it isn't easy to hear it more than a few yards from the radio. And unlike at Bonneville -- there isn't a rule to have a CB in each support vehicle so we can't rely on hearing the news from the CB in the truck right in front/behind us in line. And since ECTA allows us to ride our race vehicles to the line from the pits -- many times there aren't many CBs down at the line - further making it difficult to hear announcements made on the radio. Heck - support vehicles are not allowed in the staging lines unless said vehicle requires a push start - and there aren't many of them. So - we don't have much CB coverage at the line.
Now - maybe if the funds were there a new arrangement could be installed -- either a handful of CB/speakers set up every 10 yards or something so all at staging could hear, or a high-tech digital readout that could be remote/programmed from the tower and readable by those in staging -- "Oildown at the middle of short shut-down. Everyone is requested to report to shuffle duty PRONTO!" I don't see that one being set up until a few big dollars roll in some day soon, darn it.
Ergo I say unto all of you -- yup, in staging at Maxton there's no easy way to know if there's been a shutdown due to oil or an incident or anything. Until someone comes up with a workable solution to the problem - there isn't going to be a good solution to the problem.
Hunh?
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OK, the flag idea was just for the folks waiting in staging area, usually looking toward the front of the no longer moving line. Starters stick the pole in the bucket before going to help shuffle. You can "hear" a flag over any engine noise and just maybe somebody with a car or push vehicle w/ a cb could help recruit dancers back in the pits. But it's all good, I'll be there anyway.
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My high frequency hearing has been gone for over twenty years but somehow I always hear Al when he says they need us down course:-D......and heed his requests.........
Ed
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I was thinking of car horns. Not the big horn from the tower . I never want to hear that one .
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This is very interesting from a racer's perspective and has provided some insight to possible improvements we can make, to decrease the time it takes to complete the cleanup and get back to racing.
Firstly, from the Starter's perspective, when an oil down occurs, I almost always see the smoke before anyone else. The first thing that happens, is the tower either calls out Emergency Rescue or not, depending on which side of the track the competitor pulls off to. Sometimes, the racer is not even aware that there has been a problem with their vehicle and continues all the way down the track and pulls around into either short or long shutdown. I have seen several occasions where the Rescue trucks chased a vehicle all the way down the track, into shutdown and sometimes even back along the return road.
Once it has been determined that there is not an emergency situation, Joe Timney, Keith Turk or Joe Roberts will inspect the track to determine if oil is down on the track. If oil is identified, the Tower will make an announcement over the Volunteer closed band radios, followed by a public announcement over the CB radio (channel 1) for assistance.
At this point, one of the Starting Line or Safety Inspector volunteers walks down Staging row, yelling that there has been an oil down and we need help with the Kitty Litter Shuffle cleanup. Al, myself and all other volunteers get their vehicles and loads up with helpers until they are full and then proceeds down to the affected area.
I personally have made most of the racer's and crews aware of the condition and requested help, only to get blank stares or having backs shown to me. I say to them "Oh well, nobody is racing until it is cleaned up and the more people helping, the quicker we get done". We usually get people to help from the Starting Line, Staging rows, but from my experience it is usually less than half the people standing there waiting.
What else can we do to make as many people aware of the need for help, short of actually engaging every single person in Staging into a specifically directed conversation ?
Don't get me wrong, I know lots of you people do help, but it always seems like it is the same ones over and over again. I continue to be baffled and don't understand why everyone does not come help.
:?
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Thanks Steve .
The goal of this thread was to help raise the awareness.That it will get cleaned up quicker if everyone knows what is going on and what needs to happen before we go back to racing . It dose not happen very often and dose not really take long to get cleaned up. But as you said there is room for improvement. :cheers:
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To give a bit of understanding to this, At El Mirage and Bonneville, no driving to the Start line, gotta have a Support Vehicle, It's got a CB in it, you hear Everything (when turned on). At Maxton, you can drive the race vehicle to the start line, the bikes rarely have a support vehicle, a lot of the cars are solo also. those that do have support, usually park the vehicle on the side of the access road, pre-stage is relatively short and it is frowned upon to have the support vehicle behind the race vehicle in line.
This leaves everyone to cluster around the CB up by the Starting line, and is why the competitors down the line are relatively clueless to course condition and status.
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Looks like this thread is the talk of the off season. Oil downs are never fun and the clean up is always time consuming. My worry with the oil down is the fire or a crash that can be associated. Oil on the motorcycle tire is intresting to say the least. That's why I have a 6 quart containment lower on the 636. I know it doesn't catch it all, but hopefully it keeps the tires clean. Have a new containment lower in work for the 250 also. Now running naked is another story. I'm not saying mandate anything. It's just what I choose to do. I've hit the deck too many time roadracing. Getting a bit old for that.
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How about you put a yellow flashing light on a pole high enough for the people to see at the start/stage area. At least they would know something is going on down course. SCTA at the lake uses a low power FM radio station as well as the CB. We also have a lot of spectators lining both sides of the course and 11 patrol positions on both side of the course. The CB has proven to be the best way to communicate with the racers and crews.
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It all boils down to "let the other guy do the work". The meet in '09 when Jimmy Shine came ( # 2?) I made the announcement, went to the pits to get 'shufflers", reported to the oil down and THEN drove all the way down to start to get more help. I walked the grid yelling for help in my best "school teacher" and drove them to the spill. I had plenty of room for all the volunteers in my NEON!!! (Jimmy was one of them) We eventually got a good turn out but it shouldn't be like pulling teeth. Besides Joe and Keith, Donna and Tonya EVERYBODY should do the "shuffle", It's good for the soul. Que the angels.....
See you from the tower
John
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Oh. my. Five pages. Still not figured out.
As an aside -- why not -- I saw a guy at Bonneville on a PS bike, I guess, getted pretty badly burned BECAUSE his bike contained the oil. Don't know if he'd rather fallen down or stay with it and burn. He chose the latter. I think he'd done both in the past, so maybe he knew.
Stan
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The only thing we have linig both sides of the track is fire ants. Can they be trained to eat up oil spills? No wait- that won't work for me, I need my truck to get home. Maybe I should just get Bozo shoes to go with my Bozo attitude.