Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Bonneville General Chat => Topic started by: stay`tee on December 31, 2009, 05:10:36 AM
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On the saturday before christmas i was invited to witness the "start up" of a Merlin V12 motor that a fella is fitting into a lakester to be ran at Gairdner`s Speedweek 2011. The motor was coaxed into life after sitting idle since sometime during WW2 :cheers:,,, it ran, albeit on nine sometimes six and occasionally on twelve cylinders 8-). Most all present oouud and aarrd and were predicting unreal speeds :wink:.
Surley in the history of Bonneville somewon has ran a Merlin, Allison V12 engined vehicle :? :? :?
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:evil: SURELY someone was filming :?
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I must have been about 12 when my dad to me to see what was then called the Confederate Air Force.
A P51 was sitting there and the crowd gawking at it, and when the Merlin engine fired up and billowed a cloud of smoke everyone moved out of the stench, except me.
My dad knew what was in my veins without a doubt at that moment. That engine was a symphony, and the cloud of smoke perfume to me.
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There's a fellow that lives in Pittsburg Kansas that built a 27 roadster with an Allison engine in it, don't know if he ever finished it. The engine was longer than the roadster body and the exhaust pipe was about 8" in diameter and extended back past the rear wheel.
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Hey Stay'tee, back in the 60's there was a guy that put a Merlin in a drag hydro(boat). That boat had the weirdest sound running the 1/4. The name of the boat was "Sugar".At the same time there was a hit song named Sugar.. So everytime I hear that song, you guessed it I get a mental picture of the boat.The boat had good mph, but was lacking in E.T. Sweet looking ride!!!!Mike R..
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Check out E.J.Potter A/K/A the Michigan Madman. I did a quick search and only found reference to his motorcycle. I believe that he ran that motor in a 1957 Plymouth at various venues. Perhaps Bonneville? Surely someone must remember this as he was at least unique.
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I don't remember any Allison or Rolls Royce engines but back in the 90's a bunch of guys from Texas showed up with an old dragster chassis with an air cooled WWii tank motor in it. It was determined to be unfit to run so we all gawked at it in the pits.
Howard 8-)
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Last time I saw an Allison in something with wheels was at a hot rod tractor pull in Iowa, probably about 1978. The sound was outrageous, and it won the event, and I mean lights out won it, against tractors with Hemi's, BB Chevys, and a guy with a SOHC 427.
A lakester with a Merlin? :-o I like it.
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A Lakester with a Merlin :-o, I like it too 8-),,, the sound at full noise through the timed mile :cheers:, now, theres your reason to come "down under" :-)
I often go over to my mates place for a bar-b-que,, during the seventies he cut two cylinders off the end of a Merlin (V2) and installed it into a homebuilt motorcycle frame, it was a big hit at motorcycle shows along the east coast of Australia doing burnouts, at one time he had a small roots blower on the beast,,, Lucky Kieser is his name, i believe he took it to Sturgess and Daytona, also to a show in Germany somewhere.
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There have been a couple of meteor engined cars in this part of the world.
This one is amusing in that it's in a magazine called 'practical performance car'
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&Itemid=19 (http://www.ppcmag.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=29&Itemid=19)
Andy
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Don't forget Dave Cox imported that twin Merlin 'liner from down under. It now sits in the desert and the Merlins are for sale.
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there was a fellow in 2005 or 2006 ( as I recall) that came through the pits for 974 Studie with photos and a story about these motors.
the photos were old and tattered , he talked about building a project car with a merlin type motor.
He mentioned EJ Potter had several of these engines and refused to sell any of them to be used in a car project
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Surley in the history of Bonneville somewon has ran a Merlin, Allison V12 engined vehicle :? :? :?
Athol Graham
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Castlemaine hot rod shop out of Australia had built a 55 CHevy with either a Merlin or Allison V-12. It had a P-51 themed paintjob on it and was quite the work of art. This was a few years ago and they were shooting for the most powerfull street car in the world. Not sure what ever happened to it.
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I remember a magazine feature in a magazine called Superbike, over here in the UK about Lucky definitely different.
There was a guy called Jon Dodd who had a merlin engine in a car that was road legal over here in the UK in the early 80's, you might be able to find out more about him if you google him.
Just love the sound of those Merlin engines, we had a Spitfire & Hurricane WW2 fighter planes do a display at one of our drag race meetings this year, absolutely fabulous noise makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up... hell yeah.
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The 55 Chev 8-) out off Castleigh Rod Shop is owned by Rod Hadfield, he was one off the "pioneers" of LSR at Gairdner.
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(http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr146/Bobfalcon/100_0451.jpg).
Lucky's Vtwin 5000cc Merlin.
Ronnie , Rod sold the '55 a few years ago. Say Hi to Lucky & June for me , also tell him not to do any thing TOOO silly!!,
Cheers , Bob.
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Don't forget Dave Cox imported that twin Merlin 'liner from down under. It now sits in the desert and the Merlins are for sale.
:-( thats realy sad news
i have a real soft spot for the Merlins and Allisons,one of the best sounds i think i have ever heard used to go especially to the boat races for the merlin powered hydro's... and one of the guys that came with me to the Aussie speedweek runs a twin turbo efi quad cam Merlin in a pulling tractor he has built up himself.
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Yeah Bob, he is a bit of a "worrie" :-D,, thanks for the update on the sale of Rods car,,
Greg, there was a fella at the start up, was telling me that he was from down your way, and the hydroboats,,, dont remember his name, but do recall him talking about some bloke in Belt-a-rat who has a cupple of containers full of Merlin, Allison :? parts.
Whats the storie behind the twin Merlin :? :?
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wasn't there a BMW Isetta stuffed with an Allison motor many years ago? Same guy that build some of the dragcars like Big Al that is in Garlits museum?
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Then there was the Topolino with FOUR Allisons.
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gotta luv that topolina 8-),,,
I am surprised that apart from Athol Graham (rip), no one else has made a genuine attempt at LSR using these motors :?,,
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Jim Lytle was the guy behind the Big Al legacy. He built a trike and the Isetta and a White dump truck cabbed monster too. I seem to remember hearing he was doing fabrication work for the Granetelli's back in the 60's and did most of the chassis fab on the turbine Indy car IIRC.
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gotta luv that topolina 8-),,,
I am surprised that apart from Athol Graham (rip), no one else has made a genuine attempt at LSR using these motors :?,,
Sure,
Art Arfons and his Anteater (Green Monster No. 12) - as I remember the car is in parts by Rochlitzer in California.
Was once the fastest of the meet with a 313 mph run in the first gear....... :-D in 1961 - Art drove the car also in 1960.
Art got about 15 Allison engines in his work shop in the Pickle Road/Akron/Ohio when I was there in the 90's.
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Ronnie i think you would have to ask Rod about them, he seems to know whats where and who owns it
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gotta luv that topolina 8-)
I am surprised that apart from Athol Graham (rip), no one else has made a genuine attempt at LSR using these motors :?
The Allison and Merlin were the state of the art 60 years ago, but their time has passed.
They're old, expensive, heavy, unreliable and tuning them is a very specialized business done by very few shops. Based on what we've seen with 3000 to 5000 HP race motors today whose parts are not in the "worth more than their weight in gold because production ended 60 years ago" category, I'd go with something a little lighter and better. The weight may be an asset in tractor pulls, LSR is better off using aerodynamics.
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I would be happy if someone brought one on a stand to the flats, and Bend in the Road....
and started it up every hour on the hour... :-o
would not bother me at all............................. :-D
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Great idea -- would bring us big crowds at Salt Talks Sunday evening. Who pays for the fuel to run it, though -- those things can't be fuel-sippers.
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If we`re going to stand around listening to it run, let`s round up one of these...........
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If we`re going to stand around listening to it run, let`s round up one of these...........
GRRRRRR!!!! :evil:
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http://media.photobucket.com/image/E%20J%20Potter/UncleErnie/Roaddog.jpg
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EJ Potter had one of those twin Allisons in a pulling tractor , years ago, I saw it run at an event in SLC, it was a little off , latter I asked him what was wrong with it, He said it needed a valve job, BUT with 96 valves he was having a hard time getting excited about doing the job !
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EJ Potter had one of those twin Allisons in a pulling tractor , years ago, I saw it run at an event in SLC, it was a little off , latter I asked him what was wrong with it, He said it needed a valve job, BUT with 96 valves he was having a hard time getting excited about doing the job !
......and people wonder why I pulled both of them out and am putting in turbines........
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Merlin and Rolls Royce V12's!!! I need to make it out to Reno to watch the Unlimiteds run! P51's give me chills when I hear them. There was/is a shop in Tehachapi, Ca, a Mr. Nixon, who works on these engines. I dropped in there years ago looking for work and saw some engines on stands and sitting around. Awesome!!!
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Back in school I lived up the street from Bernie Little's Miss Budweiser hydroplane shop in Seattle. When out of town motorheads came to visit, we would walk down and ask if we could take a look in the shop. Racks and rows of Griffens for the last piston boat. When they went turbine, they didn't allow tours anymore. I think unlimited hydroplane racing took a hit from the fans when they stopped being "Thunderboats."
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Years ago at Lion's Drag Strip I watched Tex Collins run a Funny car with a Allison. I thought it was strange the way he ran it, so maybe someone can comment on why he ran the car this way.
He would fire the car up, roll into staging then bring the RPM up to a given setting, then let the clutch go. Motor would never change RPM and would either accelerate or smoke the tires. It never seemed like he worked the throttle like all of the other cars with automotive motors.
Would torque be the reason? I know I have heard that a P51 could roll and crash on takeoff if full throttle was applied before there was enough air flow over the wing to compensate for the roll.
Tom G.
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I used to have a mate with a Merlin, before the first start up in a while he'd lube the cams with STP as the cams were a bit "iffy". 84 bolts per cover was a chore but 27 litres of supercharged V12 was a wonderful sound. That engine at high idle drank more fuel in 30 seconds than I could almost pour from a drum in half the time. Somewhere here I have a relatively recent picture of one, multiple carbed in a small(ish) hydro.
The Meteor was the tank engine, no supercharger and reverse rotation. Everything interchanged bar the cams. The Griffon was the big brother of the Merlin and came in at 37 litres.
The common denominator seems to be the cost to keep one running, parts are readily available assuming you can afford them.
Cheers,
Rob
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There is a guy east of Toledo, Ohio named Tom Dombrowski. He made the Allison competitive for tractor pulling by getting rid of the huge sodium filled valves. Their weight limited engine revs and cause many engine failures when used for pulling. So he modified the heads to accept 427 Ford side oiler intake and exhaust valves. He had a flow bench in his shop at home. I was in his shop once prolly 10 years ago and he had a gearbox off a German tractor pull tractor that had four Allisons on it. The power had torn the gearbox apart and he was fixing it. He also had a 29 Ford with a Buick Grand National turbo motor in it. He told me a story about beating a Dodge Viper while pulling a loaded trailer (it was made from the back clip off a 29 Ford) with the turbo 29.
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This might help you get your V-12 Merlin / Allison "FIX" for the day.
Definitely with sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7kJF-LjosU
JGMagoo
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Crosley, You were visting with Jim Lytle in our pits. He came by a couple of different years to visit. Hooley
(http://)
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last summer we organised a 'SUPPORT THE TROOPS DAY' here in england as appears our 'leaders' would rather fund the terrorists and there worthless families than our brave men and women,anyway at the show a guy arrived with a GRIFFON engine fitted to a trailer,obviously we welcomed him into the arenea and he would fire it up every hour and was one of the most popular exibits at the event,all types of people were getting very excited by the spectacle,and we had over 40,000 visitors! i will get in touch and see if he fancies coming over with us when head to bonneville and BUB in 2012- he had fitted contra rotating propellors to keep the crank from stress and to keep the 'finest musical instrument on earth'-..on earth
TOP CRAZED OLD DUDE
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I may have some pictures when I eventually get my hard drive back from chris ireland when is the do this year none of us can remember.
is the red barras displat team still on,
Oz
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Try this one. Chris Williams with his Napier W12 Bentley. He's a regular at UK races, hill-climbs and sprints. I'm told that his latest toy (not yet complete) has a supercharged 44.5litre Packard engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry2-kDCTaEU
Cheers
Robin
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Or how about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdfO657zHNY&feature=related
Propster Mk1 :wink: Think the chassis needs a little more work.
Cheers
Robin
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Robin,
speaking of propsters....
The Soviet GAZ-20 Aerosled is a fine looking machine
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2134/2097451492_8584621042.jpg
http://cgi.ebay.com/SOVIET-LSR-GAZ-20-AEROSLED-LAND-SPEED-RECORD-CAR-1-43_W0QQitemZ390142969804QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDiecast_Vehicles?hash=item5ad65547cc
it says "land speed record car" what record might that be?
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdfO657zHNY&feature=related
well spotted-that was the same guy we had at our troop day-
OZ- were in discussions with the promotor and all the a-hole authorities about the date-aiming at may bank holiday-
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For those of you who want your v-12 sound fix.
http://www.flyingmachinestv.co.uk/SpitPL965.wmv
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I found a photo on my old computer , I hope they show up here from photobucket:
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Crosley/Big%20Al%20V-12/ISETTA12.jpg)
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a68/Crosley/Big%20Al%20V-12/ISETTA13.jpg)
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Now that might have been a handful. At least it had a solid cage!!! :-D
Pete
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Don't forget Dave Cox imported that twin Merlin 'liner from down under. It now sits in the desert and the Merlins are for sale.
Rich, did he ever sell the Merlins?
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No idea. You were just there. Should have asked him or George Calaway last weekend. You want to put a Merlin in the '38? Not legal for XXO
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Are we forgetting Art Arfons streamliner with the Allison ran 312 @ speedweek, :cheers:
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Don't forget Dave Cox imported that twin Merlin 'liner from down under. It now sits in the desert and the Merlins are for sale.
Rich, did he ever sell the Merlins?
FYI, The engines in the Ozzy Glen Davis streamliner were Meteor engines with turbos not blown Merlins.
Sid.
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Don't forget Dave Cox imported that twin Merlin 'liner from down under. It now sits in the desert and the Merlins are for sale.
Rich, did he ever sell the Merlins?
FYI, The engines in the Ozzy Glen Davis streamliner were Meteor engines with turbos not blown Merlins.
Sid.
If the centrifugal manufactures would just make a 2 speed 2 stage supercharger we could almost catch up to what the Merlins had 70+ years ago :-o
JL222
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No idea. You were just there. Should have asked him or George Calaway last weekend. You want to put a Merlin in the '38? Not legal for XXO
Haha! No, I'm not thinking LSR! I don't know who Dave Cox or George Calaway are, and I just read this today, or I would have checked when I was out there.
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If the centrifugal manufactures would just make a 2 speed 2 stage supercharger we could almost catch up to what the Merlins had 70+ years ago :-o JL222
I'm pretty sure all the Merlins used in the Unlimited Hydroplanes are all locked in the higher stage anyhow.
Cheers,
Rob
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Many of the cars that ran "Merlins" didn't. The Merlin was supercharged & pretty complicated. What people like John Dodd ran, were Rolls Royce METEORS, the tank version of the Merlin, & still an impressive 27 litres but running on carbs. How do I know? I bought one, ex-military & still in the box, for £960, about 20 years ago. To impress people I told them it was a Merlin. Here's a pic of mine, originally destined for a Chieften tank. I never did get round to doing anything with it.
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That would make a nice bike motor.... :roll:
:cheers:
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That would make a nice bike motor.... :roll:
:cheers:
Believe it or not, I bought it to build a trike around. My last trike was powered by a puny Mercedes OHC V8. :-D
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That would make a nice bike motor.... :roll:
:cheers:
or several
http://thekneeslider.com/5000cc-v-twin-motorcycle-engine-for-sale/
Some of you may have met Lucky last year
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The merlin was a ww2 air craft engine built by RR in England , its fame came from its use in the Spitfire . It had a very slight edge over the German 109. The P51 was first equipped with the ALLISON V12. Its performance left a lot to be desired . The us got a couple of RR MERLINS and put them in the P51 . Due to the better air frame and aerodynamics of the P51 it became the fastest ww2 fighter . The Packard car company got the prints and in 90 days was in full production . ALL BUT A HANDFUL OF THE P51s WERE POWERED WITH PACKARDS NOT MERLINS. The saying was how you could tell a Packard from a Merlin was the Packard didn't leak oil and with the bigger supercharger and water injection with 106 octane it made more power , The P51 has the prop speed record of 489 mph I think.
MAX
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Good info and pics-thanks guys!
I was thinking rear-engine push truck-just because! :evil:
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The challenge with the original Merlin was that it was so complex that RR could not build enough of them to meet the demand. So when Packard was contracted to build them they re-engineered the engine so that it could be mass produced. The Packard engineers said that the British method of engineering was to make 5 parts to do the job of one part. Once Packard got going they built the majority of the Merlin engines. When it was originally built in the late 30s it made around 900 hp, un-supercharged and on the British 87 octane gas. Every time the US would send England higher octane gas, the horse power on the Merlin went up. They added superchargers and then two superchargers and then they made them two speed. At the end of the war when the US was shipping 145 octane gas the Merlin was making 3400 hp +!
The Allison got a bad rep when they took them out of the Mustang. Being that the Allison V12 was being paid for by the Department of Defense and they had a real thing for turbo charging, which was in its' infancy, so they made Allison work on developing a turbo charged engine. Allison wanted to follow RR and go with twin blowers and a two speed drive but the Gov. made them stay with the turbo program. Yes there were supercharged Allisons but they were never the equal to the Merlin. Of course they did finally start getting the turbo set up to work but the war was over and every thing was going to gas turbines and jets.
Unlimited hydro racing went to gas turbines years ago but there was a guy in Ohio that developed a twin turbo Allison with electronic fuel injection and at one time he was kicking the tubines a$$s!!
Rex
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Rex;
Back then, before euphemisms, it was the War Department.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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:cheers:
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The merlin was a ww2 air craft engine built by RR in England , its fame came from its use in the Spitfire . It had a very slight edge over the German 109. The P51 was first equipped with the ALLISON V12. Its performance left a lot to be desired . The us got a couple of RR MERLINS and put them in the P51 . Due to the better air frame and aerodynamics of the P51 it became the fastest ww2 fighter . The Packard car company got the prints and in 90 days was in full production . ALL BUT A HANDFUL OF THE P51s WERE POWERED WITH PACKARDS NOT MERLINS. The saying was how you could tell a Packard from a Merlin was the Packard didn't leak oil and with the bigger supercharger and water injection with 106 octane it made more power , The P51 has the prop speed record of 489 mph I think.
MAX
I saw a V12 valve valve cover stamped MAYTAG :-o can't remember if Packard or Allison 8-)
JL222