Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => How To Section => Topic started by: Dynoroom on December 16, 2009, 01:19:58 PM
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Okay, this is out of my league. :?
I have a Hewlett-Packard power supply. It's designed to be used @ 440 volts AC input with an output range 0 to 40 volts DC @ 0 to 100 amps. :-o
What I'd like to know is.... I have 220 volts at my shop. If this unit is wired up at 220 instead of 440 will I still be able to use it at 1/2 the output? Meaning 0-20 volts DC & 0-50 amps. I want to use this power supply with my engine dyno.
Any help will be very much appreciated. Thanks :cheers:
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Probably not going to work right out of the box. 440 is usually 3-phase power, 220 is only 2-phase. If you have 220 2-Phase power available at your shop, look into a rotary phase converter. This is a device which will take your 2 phase power and generate the missing third leg for you. With a rotary converter in place, you hook up to your 220 shop power to your device, then connect the output of the rotary converter as the third leg.
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I'll expand on what BB said -- but add some other stuff from my experience.
The 440 VAC unit is maybe built for 3-phase -- maybe not. First of all you'll need to determine which one of those two choices it is. If it's for regular (called single-phase) you're in luck. All you'd need is a step-up transformer to get your shop 220 up to 440. By the way, once you get above regular household 120 you sometimes get little variations -- like maybe it's 440, maybe it's 480. Check it out -- there are often taps available on or in the unit to allow some adjustment of the input voltage. You'll want to be sure to get this part of the deal correct.
If the 440 unit is built for 3-phase -- well, BB is correct -- but a rotary inverter is pretty inefficient. It's basically a motor (running on what you've got, or, in this case, 220) that's spinning a generator that makes what you want -- in this case, 440 3-phase. It'll be physically big and make a bit (maybe a bunch) of noise, too.
If you want to do the conversion on the cheap I'd suggest you ask your local commercial electrician (guys that work at household levels might not know how to do this) about using the regular single-phase to make "sort of" multi-phase. We had a three-phase motor on the big air compressor at my business - but only single phase was available. The power company and electrician hooked it up using both sides of the single phase as two -- and the neutral leg as the "third" phase. It was inefficient -- but less costly than having a rotary converter spinning, especially since the rotary unit would have to either spin constantly to be available when the compressor needed to come on - or it'd have to be set to come on and up to speed before the compressor could start -- which might be too long for the process.
Ask your local folks or your power company -- they might be able to get the thing running for you without a big hassle.
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Mike, talk to Bobby Sykes jr. or Larry Lindsley they should be able to tell you.
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I'll expand on what BB said -- but add some other stuff from my experience.
The 440 VAC unit is maybe built for 3-phase -- maybe not. First of all you'll need to determine which one of those two choices it is. If it's for regular (called single-phase) you're in luck. All you'd need is a step-up transformer to get your shop 220 up to 440. By the way, once you get above regular household 120 you sometimes get little variations -- like maybe it's 440, maybe it's 480. Check it out -- there are often taps available on or in the unit to allow some adjustment of the input voltage. You'll want to be sure to get this part of the deal correct.
If the 440 unit is built for 3-phase -- well, BB is correct -- but a rotary inverter is pretty inefficient. It's basically a motor (running on what you've got, or, in this case, 220) that's spinning a generator that makes what you want -- in this case, 440 3-phase. It'll be physically big and make a bit (maybe a bunch) of noise, too.
If you want to do the conversion on the cheap I'd suggest you ask your local commercial electrician (guys that work at household levels might not know how to do this) about using the regular single-phase to make "sort of" multi-phase. We had a three-phase motor on the big air compressor at my business - but only single phase was available. The power company and electrician hooked it up using both sides of the single phase as two -- and the neutral leg as the "third" phase. It was inefficient -- but less costly than having a rotary converter spinning, especially since the rotary unit would have to either spin constantly to be available when the compressor needed to come on - or it'd have to be set to come on and up to speed before the compressor could start -- which might be too long for the process.
Ask your local folks or your power company -- they might be able to get the thing running for you without a big hassle.
I knew someone would have more background on it. I actually built my own rotary converter using an appropriate rated 440 motor and run it off of 220. It will not auto start on 220, but it will run once it is spun up by hand. The 220 will keep the motor running and I just tap off the third leg of motor into my lathe and everyone is happy. It's not a real steady output and there is no line conditioning, but for a 13" Clausing it works pretty well. For what he is running, I don't know how sensitive it is to voltage flux so I didn't want to go there.
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Ask your local folks or your power company
That's a good one! My power company would threaten to toss me in jail if I asked to do that. Most electricians wouldn't be interested unless the liability to eating regular ratio is way down.
Do you have a part number, any info from a label, anything? How many connections are there on the incoming power? There are a large amount of dual voltage power supplies out there that just need a jumper moved. Can you post a picture?
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Ask your local folks or your power company
That's a good one! My power company would threaten to toss me in jail if I asked to do that. Most electricians wouldn't be interested unless the liability to eating regular ratio is way down.
Do you have a part number, any info from a label, anything? How many connections are there on the incoming power? There are a large amount of dual voltage power supplies out there that just need a jumper moved. Can you post a picture?
Hi Dean. The part # is 6456B. Several come up on Google but no hard info. Maybe you can find something?
Here's a couple of pictures.....
And here is some online info I found......
Hewlett Packard 6456B
36V/100A DC Power Supply, Refurbished
Rated: 0 to 36 V @ 100 A
Regulation: 0.2%
Metered
CV/CC
Programmable
Product Information
Ordering Info
HP / Agilent 6456B Power Supply provides an AC line loss protection circuit which monitors 3-phase input and cuts of SCR's and opens output bus if a phase drops out; operation resumes when AC input returns to normal. The voltage and current outputs of the supply can be programmed by a remote resistance, or a remote voltage source. 3-phase input with various voltage options.
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Here is a spec sheet, still looking for a schematic
http://www.nationaltestequipment.com/docs/HP_6483C_info.pdf (http://www.nationaltestequipment.com/docs/HP_6483C_info.pdf)
Worst case:
http://www.manualsplus.com/manuals/AGILENT%28HP%29/6456B (http://www.manualsplus.com/manuals/AGILENT%28HP%29/6456B)
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Because of the AC line loss protection circuit you can skip the Rube Goldberg ideas. If it doesn't have 460V 3-phase it won't run.
Sometimes the free stuff costs more than it's worth. You need to buy a rotary converter.
There are tricks you can do with motors that won't work with this.
1. Have the electric company supply 460V 3-phase. Most won't supply to a non-business customer.
2. Move to somewhere that has 3-phase. Yeah, right.
3. Buy an electronic converter. Probably more than your racing budget.
4. Buy a rotary converter. Sadly, there are 220V single phase to 220V 3-phase converters all over the place. 220V single phase to 460 V 3-phase converters are not as easy to come by, and expensive.
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Mike,
Do you have single phase or three phase 220V at your shop. Most industrial parks have three phase. It looks like this unit only draws 7 amps at 460V. three phase. If your shop has 220V. three phase you could use a transformer and step up the voltage to 460V. three phase. You must remember when doing this your Amperage would be cut in half. So you would need to feed the transformer with at least 20 amps at 220V 3 phase to be able to get the 7 amps you need at 460V. three phase.
Some times you can find used transformers cheap sometimes not. I can tell you they will always hum, some louder than others. They also take up room.
I don't know what this unit costs but it might just be better in the long run to get one that fits your power source.
Hope that helped,
Tom G.
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Yes I do have 220 3 phase at my shop. I think my neighbor (industrial park) had 440 plumbed in by SCE. I'll check.
Thanks for the input so far.
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Dyno,
Is this power supply to replace the the console power supply on a SF901? If so, i might have a spare that belongs to another engine builder down the road.
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Dyno,
Is this power supply to replace the the console power supply on a SF901? If so, i might have a spare that belongs to another engine builder down the road.
Thanks but no, it's so I can run ALL the other electronics that keep popping up. When we run high hp engines we can sometimes have issues with power.
An example would be an efi system that was correcting the fuel curve as the voltage was dropping or fuel pressure dropping as the power/flow requirements go up.
And yes I too have a spare console power supply, "just in case".
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You can buy a 12VDC 10A power supply for about $200. If you are going to spend anything close to that to get that old dog running I would just buy the new one.
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If you are going to be throwing away any computers, that power supply gives 12v and 5v (for running engine sensors) and about 150-500w total usually (10amp+). I use them for doing bench experiments with gauging instead of lugging a car battery around. I have an El Cheapo (Extech) brand variable DC supply also, but it's display took a poop in less than 6 months of light operation.
If you got that 460 DC supply cheap, what the heck. Get a fire extinguisher and plug it into 230 and see what it does. If it's solid-state, it might overheat with low voltage, but then again, it might work fine. The power supply tries to develop the right voltage from what it's given, and I would not be surprised if it worked fine up to 50 amps.
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PS - I spent 2 weeks in the ICU burn ward at UCI med center from playing with electricity, so take anything I post on electricity with a grain of salt.
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PS - I spent 2 weeks in the ICU burn ward at UCI med center from playing with electricity, so take anything I post on electricity with a grain of salt.
I'm glad to see you "qualified" your advice, I wish everyone that gave me free advice did so with such candor! :-D
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PS - I spent 2 weeks in the ICU burn ward at UCI med center from playing with electricity, so take anything I post on electricity with a grain of salt.
I'm glad to see you "qualified" your advice, I wish everyone that gave me free advice did so with such candor! :-D
Stupid Walmart "UA Approved" extension cord box blew up in my hands due to a mfr defect, and that was just 120v. Luckily I had med insurance, the bill was $175,000 before I got back home. I should have plugged it in the wall last, not first, at least the first time I used it.
I've been doing commercial wiring for my own business for 16 years, most of it 230v 3ph. None of it has ever failed (knock-on-wood). All my issues have been failures attributed to others who were "qualified". :-D
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Being a Hi-Voltage (130DC to 500,000 VAC) electrician for 42 years... It's best left to ones who know what they are doing. McR knowing what his was doing still had an unforseen problem not of his doing.
Good luck..........and be safe first.........JD
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If you are going to be throwing away any computers, that power supply gives 12v and 5v (for running engine sensors) and about 150-500w total usually (10amp+).
IIRC, some of those outputs don't like to be unloaded, and the outputs will go unregulated if they are.
I think many people have simply put a big power resistor on those outputs as a workaround.
Worth looking into to find out before hooking up to expensive equipment.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pyramid-PS21KX-20-AMP-Power-Supply-450W-115-AC-13-8V-DC_W0QQitemZ290379780839QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_Audio_Video?hash=item439bfbd2e7 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pyramid-PS21KX-20-AMP-Power-Supply-450W-115-AC-13-8V-DC_W0QQitemZ290379780839QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCar_Audio_Video?hash=item439bfbd2e7)
20 AMP Power Supply 450W 115 AC 13.8V DC - $89.99 shipped
Mike
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Being a Hi-Voltage (130DC to 500,000 VAC) electrician for 42 years...
It's funny that we normal folks think of low voltage as the 12 volt battery in the car and 120VAC as high voltage.
Jimmy, straighten me out here if I'm wrong.
120VAC is low voltage. So is 480VAC.
600VAC and up is high voltage according to NEC code.
Unless you are working in the power distribution industry and then it's still low voltage.
To those guys up on the pole 1000-35000 volts is medium voltage.
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PS - I spent 2 weeks in the ICU burn ward at UCI med center from playing with electricity, so take anything I post on electricity with a grain of salt.
I'm glad to see you "qualified" your advice, I wish everyone that gave me free advice did so with such candor! :-D
Stupid Walmart "UA Approved" extension cord box blew up in my hands due to a mfr defect, and that was just 120v. Luckily I had med insurance, the bill was $175,000 before I got back home. I should have plugged it in the wall last, not first, at least the first time I used it.
I've been doing commercial wiring for my own business for 16 years, most of it 230v 3ph. None of it has ever failed (knock-on-wood). All my issues have been failures attributed to others who were "qualified". :-D
If you are around or use that wall outlet you plugged that extension box cord into I suggest you check the breaker and make sure it is a 15 or 20 amp, and that it works. What happened to you should never have happened, something had to be wired wrong,(besides the extension box cord) or the breaker had a failure.
I am always amazed at how many electrical panels I have been in only to see much larger breakers being used, with the wrong size wire, and devices. When I ask the person why, they say they did not think putting a number 12 wire on a 50 amp breaker would make a difference as long as it worked. That is what gets people severely burned or worse yet killed.
Tom G.
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If you are around or use that wall outlet you plugged that extension box cord into I suggest you check the breaker and make sure it is a 15 or 20 amp, and that it works. What happened to you should never have happened, something had to be wired wrong,(besides the extension box cord) or the breaker had a failure.
I am always amazed at how many electrical panels I have been in only to see much larger breakers being used, with the wrong size wire, and devices. When I ask the person why, they say they did not think putting a number 12 wire on a 50 amp breaker would make a difference as long as it worked. That is what gets people severely burned or worse yet killed.
Tom G.
You wouldn't think an extension cord could throw a foot of flames out the end. Certainly caught me by surprise. It even had an integral circuit breaker in the device, it was one of those cord reel thingies. 3rd degree burns all over my hand. I flinched for a year every time I plugged something in.:-D
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It's funny that we normal folks think of low voltage as the 12 volt battery in the car and 120VAC as high voltage.
Jimmy, straighten me out here if I'm wrong.
120VAC is low voltage. So is 480VAC.
600VAC and up is high voltage according to NEC code.
Unless you are working in the power distribution industry and then it's still low voltage.
To those guys up on the pole 1000-35000 volts is medium voltage.
Dean,
In the Electrical Industry you have a classification called Inside Wireman. Typically these Electricians deal with voltages under 600 Volts. These Electricians also are the ones who wire Residential, Commercial, and Industrial Buildings. They typically deal with 480 Volts 3 phase down to 120 Volt 1 phase. Low Voltage to them would be anything under 100 volts, such as door bells, some furnace control wiring, yard low voltage lighting, intercoms etc. Occasionally you would run across 4160 Volts and DC power supplies, but only at plants like General Motors, and it would be mostly coordinating the work between cable splicers and wiremen.
Then you have a Electricians like JD who work for the utilities and work with all voltages. There are many classifications for those wireman the one I am familiar with is a Lineman, who climbs the poles, replaces transformers etc. I am sure JD could add more about this side of the industry.
Tom G.
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Everything over 600 VAC is considered High Voltage; where I work but we have alway considered everything over 600 up to 20 KV+ medium. My low voltage "hot gloves" are rated at 1000 volts and I use them when I work 480 hot which is not very often. My high voltage gloves are tested at 10,000 VAC and mostly used at 4160 VAC. Glove testing is every 6 months and air tested before each use.
I test hi-voltage with what we call a "hot-sticK" I also don a 50 cal protective suit. I'll give you a clue. I rather sit in my -20 for an hour than be in this suit for 10 minutes. I'm usually in one each week when entering hot 4160 cubicles when meggering motors. (that's an insulation test for those of you not in this choosen field)
When working with any 480 motor control centers I wear a nomex long shirt. Many in the refinery trades know what these are. My son and I also have coveralls made of this and use them when warming the car especially when using nitro.
My son Patrick is a Troubleman for SCE now nearing 20 years in the business. You earn this position by being an expert lineman. He is a first responder to problems with customers. He works alone and has uses either his insulated bucket truck or by climbing. He is a hot tool expert. I was a lineman for 2 years before going into power plants.
I feel the most dangerous voltage for me is 277 VAC floresant lighting. I just don't like it and it hurts like hell. Just a few miliamps of any voltage can kill.
As a final fun thought. You can let go of alternating current 60 times a second but DC holds you until it's all discharged........................... :cheers:................JD
PS: it's 5:45pm Saturday my day off and where am I? At the power plant.
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Around age twenty I worked in a steel fab. shop. One my co-workers moved a welder w/o disconnecting the power and yanked the plug off the cord. Same fellow re-attached same. Later that day,I dragged the machine to where it was needed and plugged it in. Amazing flash of white light, 2nd degree burns, pieces of copper wire embedded in my wrist/arm/face. Hmmmmm............Must be wired wrong. Seems "odd" the circuit is still hot. Throw the dis-connect/pull the cartridge fuse..................Piece of 3/8 hot rolled rod where the fuse should have been. F`n kids. :-o
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And there's yet another reason why they invented lockouts and safety rules and inspectors and all of that. 3/8 rod for a fuse, hey? Maybe at least it was made of magnesium so you got a really pretty light show, hey?
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Ya gotta love those guys that keep the lights on. As a lineman you get sent to all the hell holes of the world when a disaster strikes. You're not going to see me working 32KV lines in the middle of a storm!
Have you seen World's Toughest Fixes? Great show with host Sean Riley, a rigger, going around the world for some incredible repair jobs.
Replacing the antenna mast on top of a 2,000 foot tower.
Installing a new engine and generator on a cruise ship. Not replacing, adding. Cut a hole out of the side of the ship and gutted what was there and found a way to get the exhaust stack out. Then "slide" in a new engine and generator.
Replacing a 50 ton rudder. Underwater.
All child's play to the "High Voltage Power Line" show. Worked on a 250,000 volt line replacing the wire. The power was shut off, but there was still power on the lines on the other side of the tower. Looked like maybe 50 feet away. So, how much voltage can you induce 50 feet away through the air? 15,000 volts at 8 amps. The lines had to be grounded before they could work on them.
And more nuts? He had to replace spacers between lines on a 500,000 line. Still energized. From a helicopter.
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Out of all these post the one that sticks in my mind is the comment from McRat;
"I flinched for a year every time I plugged something in."
I've just can't get rid of that mental picture in my head!!!
That is a funny statement! Glad it turned out okay McRat....
Buzz