Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Billqvist on December 13, 2009, 01:04:39 PM
-
I have started my biggest project ever and the project is to build an old landspeed racer from the 30´s (like Babs, Napier-Railton, Brutus, etc.). The challenge is to use an old prewar aircraft engine Isotta-Fraschini Delta 35c (V12, 26 liter and 750hp).
I am hoping to find contacts and knowledge about those aircooled enginesin land speed racers. Is there any one out there who know something or know people that might an help and advice how to install and operate the engine, etc?
Thanks in advance,
Glenn Billqvist
Sweden
-
Glenn, best of luck in your quest.
There is a movie floating around of a aircraft motored car - V8 and running! Can't remember where I found, but I'll look.
Here's a few movies on youtubehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QewkrG6dPK8&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QewkrG6dPK8&feature=related) hope it works.
Please keep us up to date . . .
-
Glenn -
This is a really cool idea, and I wish you success with it.
I would consider becoming a member of the EEA, the Experimental Aircraft Association, in Oshkosh, Wisconsin.
http://www.eaa.org/
Their membership includes a number of people who would be able to help you source the type of engine you're looking to make work, and your dues would also help maintain one of the greatest monuments to aviation in the world. These folks live and breath aircraft technology, both old and new, and I'm certain you could make the kind of contacts to bring this car to fruition.
Good luck, and when you get started, please post a build diary here. I'm certain we'd all love to see it happen.
Cheers! :cheers:
Chris Conrad
-
Glenn,
Look for Rodney Rucker on the internet, he builds vehicles with aircooled tank engines, Packard V12 PT boat engines, and other unusual builds! Jay Leno even has one of his monster cars. Hope this helps.
Sterling
-
Try looking at and contacting someone from the Aircraft Engine Historical Society, http://www.enginehistory.org/
-
Glenn,
Look for Rodney Rucker on the internet, he builds vehicles with aircooled tank engines, Packard V12 PT boat engines, and other unusual builds! Jay Leno even has one of his monster cars. Hope this helps.
Sterling
I saw that "Leno Car" when I was visiting Gale Banks. IIRC, it's a V-12? tank engine. It's HUGE. Don't remember specs on it. I think Gale was turbocharging it?
-
Glenn,
Look for Rodney Rucker on the internet, he builds vehicles with aircooled tank engines, Packard V12 PT boat engines, and other unusual builds! Jay Leno even has one of his monster cars. Hope this helps.
Sterling
I saw that "Leno Car" when I was visiting Gale Banks. IIRC, it's a V-12? tank engine. It's HUGE. Don't remember specs on it. I think Gale was turbocharging it?
http://www.blastolene.com/jay_leno/index.htm (http://www.blastolene.com/jay_leno/index.htm) It was from a tank... The main site has some other customs that he has done, he may have some information or be able to locate an engine for you. I don't think the guy is a hot-rodder as much as he is an "artist". He is the one that built the chopped Peterbilt that was on another thread here.
-
I don't think there were many if any air cooled inline engines here. Lots of radials and water cooled V-12's. A lot of the V-12 engines, Rolls and Allison engines were used for years in unlimited hydroplane racing and when they converted to turbines a lot of their piston stuff ended up with the tractor pullers. The unlimited guys were getting 3500-4000 hp out of the Rolls-Merlin and were turning them over 4500 rpm almost twice what they were designed for.
Jim
-
Glenn, Most of the pre war car racers in the US that used airplane engines used either the Hispano Suiza V8 or the Packard Liberty V12 engine. These two were the most readily available as surplus and were both water-cooled. Ralph DePalma raced a Packard Liberty V12 engine at Daytona Beach and went 149 and change for a speed record. That engine is in the Smithsonian now and when I saw it about five years ago it looked as though they just took off the propeller hub and the reduction gear and cover and modified a clutch and transmission coupler to take its place. Also there were two Packard V12 cars entered in the 1919 Indy 500.
The Hispano Suiza V8 was more popular and cheaper and was used as a V8 and also as a 4 cylinder mainly in sprint cars into the 60’s. Wright Martin published a manual with lots of fold out blueprints considered the bible for the engine. http://www.aircraft-manuals.com/wrmahisuaiea.html You might try getting a hold of Mike Hegarty who was part of the Dozier and Hegarty liner. He ran a Hispano Suiza powered sprint car and had several of these engines. Keep us posted on your project. Tony
-
Thanks a lot for all the replies and advice and what to search for, etc. I realize there is some challenges using the V12 Aircooled Isotta Fraschini and even more challenging, when the V12 is a inverted one as well. I will keep you posted on the progress.
Regards,
Glenn
-
If you are inverting the engine, I would look at how the guys that race with the Ranger air-cooled airplane engines do it. It’s not a pre war engine, and only really went into production during the war. May of them ended up in cars and boats inverted. The Ranger powered cars I have seen had special sumps made to work with modified oiling systems. If you decide not to go with your engine and decide to go with the Hispano Suiza V8 engine, a company called Ambler made parts to put them in cars. Also there are several people that have the patterns for the Hispano Suiza engine that Rex Mays raced. This link is to race cars powered by Hispano Suiza engines http://winfield.50megs.com/Hisso.htm Tony
-
Glenn,
I have a modified supercharged Ranger V12 that has been "flipped" and is turn key. Not exactly sure what it is going in yet but If I can be of any help send me a message.
Ron
-
Hi Billquist and Woz... Jot Horne ran a roadster in the late 40s early 50s, with an inverted blowen ranger engine... Did very well... There is a good picture of it in Dean Batchlers book, "'Dry Lakes and Drag Strips'"... You can email him at jotimy@sti.net, he could probably help shorten the learning curve... Mike R.
-
Woz,
Turn-key inverted Ranger V-12... must be awesome. What did you do for induction? Got plans for Speedweek (I hope)... what class(es) would accept that engine? Can you post a video?
-
I'll send a PM.
-
Here is a picture of the "flipped" air-cooled 773 cubic inch Ranger V12.
It has had significant modifications to the oiling system. I made the intake and the two Holleys replaced the giant updraft Bendix Stromberg unit.
It is not terribly heavy (less than 1000 pounds) it has two overhead cams, 20 pounds of boost and sounds sweet.
I have adapted a Turbo 400 trans and am not sure what it will end up in.
The inertia starter works well but I am also installing a GM 24 volt CUCV starter for a backup as the inertia starters can be problematic and are kinda hard to find.
The engine and trans are approximately 8' long. One option was to install it in the back of a truck ala Dunn's Salt Toy. I know no class exists for a gas powered rear engine truck but in "AA/BG anything" we will be "time only" anyway.
We shall see what happens down the road....
-
Woz
Nice
G
-
I like it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:
-
I guess, put a gearvendor on the back of that AT 400 with a 1.1 rear with some dunlop 32" tires would be music on the salt
-
Here is another picture of the Ranger....
-
I find this view most pleasing...
-
Sparky, thanks for the information regarding putting our engine in a truck and running in AA/BMP.
I will need to confirm at some point the engine installation in the front with the number one plug location specified. The firewall will need to be modified and the seating position moved rearward. The crew cab truck is what I had in mind initially. As it is air-cooled, I will utilize the grille opening for ducting to the engine.
I look forward to hearing any thoughts on the legality of such a creation.
Thanks,
Ron
-
Woz
which model is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranger_V-770#cite_note-Janes-1
-
and found to be unreliable with a tendency to overheat in low speed flight
might want to get a push start so as to spend the minimum amount of time at low speed... :wink:
-
jdincau,
Ours started life as a V770-6 model.
They had a terrible record and they were in some really bad planes. Look up the Curtiss Seamew for an example. I read that an engineer, after seeing the Seamew said, "A plane that looks that bad can't possibly be any good"
The cooling is certainly something we will address regardless what it goes in. With a box fan running behind it we have run the engine for several minutes getting it good and warm with no issues (with minimal load of course)
Ron
-
Here are a couple examples of Rangers in early drag race vehicles...
http://www.the-rocketman.com/rocket_cars/JET-FRED-SIBLEY-12_lg.jpg
http://nitrogeezers.smugmug.com/Photo-Collections-From-The/The-Don-Elloitt-Collection/Drag-Racing-in-the-Fifities/3911880_3zFF2/3/233713238_qAJku/Large
http://nitrogeezers.smugmug.com/Photo-Collections-From-The/The-Don-Elloitt-Collection/Drag-Racing-in-the-Fifities/3911880_3zFF2/2/233713244_DEYFV/Large
http://nitrogeezers.smugmug.com/Photo-Collections-From-The/The-Don-Elloitt-Collection/Drag-Racing-in-the-Fifities/3911880_3zFF2/2/233713252_XtroM/Large
-
Cool stuff.Fred Sibily got one of these motors.Turn the heads around and has two 6-71 blowers mounted on top.I am not kidding i seen with my own eyes.
-
Woz - do you have video to post? Also, what are your plans on the reduction gearbox?
-
The engine has a 3 to 2 reduction box that slowed the prop down. The engine in an aircraft was limited to 3150 actual rpms so the flexplate speed is very low. If it should ever get in a race vehicle, the reduction box can be mechanically reversed to provide an opposite overdrive. Not easy like a quick change, but it can be done $$$$. We will see what happens later. Maybe video in the spring when we run it again after the deep freeze.
-
Thanks to all who replied to my topic.
I just want to give all an update of the project. The V12 hasbeen disassembled and reassembled and is now in good condition. Hopefully I can start the engine in December or January time frame. The body is in a final stage, but lots of work to put all the rivets (+1000) in place. Some work on the chassis still. The rear end is a quickchange, so I can get a fair top speed (the max RPM is only 2500). One of many challenges is to design the adapter between the engine and the Ford Truck (40´s) transmission. Any advice on the transmission or other pit falls. After many suggestions, the car have got its own name now. "Il Drago Ruggente".
I will keep you all posted when the first start of the Engine.
(http://)
-
Billqvist
You might like this
This is one of the founding members of the DLRA in a car he knocked together himself
He was also the guy that put a Merlin and a street legal 55 chev
The license plate on it is a dealer plate, used for moving unregistered cars around. not within the letter of the law
Favourite bit is when he gets it running and al the car alarms go off
G
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AMJJjeqX1o
-
I really like it. Fantastic car and holly smoke what a sound!!! I do look forward to start the engine ASAP. Thanks for sharing the youtube clip.
-
Here is a picture of the "flipped" air-cooled 773 cubic inch Ranger V12.
It has had significant modifications to the oiling system. I made the intake and the two Holleys replaced the giant updraft Bendix Stromberg unit.
It is not terribly heavy (less than 1000 pounds) it has two overhead cams, 20 pounds of boost and sounds sweet.
I have adapted a Turbo 400 trans and am not sure what it will end up in.
The inertia starter works well but I am also installing a GM 24 volt CUCV starter for a backup as the inertia starters can be problematic and are kinda hard to find.
The engine and trans are approximately 8' long. One option was to install it in the back of a truck ala Dunn's Salt Toy. I know no class exists for a gas powered rear engine truck but in "AA/BG anything" we will be "time only" anyway.
We shall see what happens down the road....
Just so you know though.... Art Dick out od Astoria Oregon, ran a 12V-92 Detroit Diesel in the front of a Ford Supercab pickup.... he sat in the back seat and had room to spare.... a V12 Detroit Diesel is a pretty long engine
Or you could always build a rear engined modified roadster.....
One thing that comes to mind.... the rules used to state unequivocally that any engine used had to be an automotive engine.... DO double check this point as you may find yourself running for time only and it won't matter much what chassis/body you have this engine mounted in.