Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: revolutionary on December 08, 2009, 09:07:18 AM
-
Something in another thread got me thinking and kinda bugs me. The practice of having a 'support vehicle' saving someone's place in line while they are in the pits dinking with their vehicle, refueling, changing chassis/body for class change, etc. I've seen this in person and seen some arguements ensue from people willing to speak out. IMO it is just cutting in line. If the vehicle isn't ready to run, it should not have a place in line. When the vehicle is READY to make a pass, it should get in line. Is there an official ruling on this or just a courtesy call?
-
Daryl,
No, there are no "official" rulings or policies regarding this issue, just common sense, courtesy and the "integrity" that Keith is aways talking about at Driver Meetings and Rookie Orientations.
The only exception to this is the "hot bikes" that are on heated tire blankets which require a generator, which we obviously do not want in the staging lanes. These positions in line are usually marked with a cone and/or the riders have discussed with the other racers in front or behind their "spot".
Common courtesy is the key here, but I must agree with you that having a support vehicle hold a place in line while the race vehicle is worked on, is not in the spirit of what we are about.
-
There is a "special line" for the fast cars at EL M and they tried it at B'ville this year will be glad to hear how that worked out and what kind of feed back. Some really fast cars and bikes have a lot of things that they have to do differently. We have seen cars that parked off to the side up front and then let the push car work its way through the line untill they were next, and wave everyone around untill they were ready to run because of car or weather --then ran next---220 plus affects bikes and cars diferently---now that we can run 3 my "paranoia" is to the next level---we station our own guy down course on the oppsite side from the stewards and towere at B'ville with our own cell phone contact about the course wind, just as an added precaution.
-
We have seen cars that parked off to the side up front and then let the push car work its way through the line until they were next, and wave everyone around until they were ready to run because of car or weather --then ran next.
I don't think any racer has a problem with the situation you described, which is quite different from holding a place in line, when the vehicle is not really ready to run.
Also, unfortunately, we do not have the room or the luxury of extra space to allow vehicles to "sit around" until they are ready to run at Maxton. We are limited to the width of the airport runway and that is all we have available to operate with (other than the cotton and peanut fields to each side).
I can see where it is extremely advantageous to do this at El Mirage or Bonneville, when you are in the open desert or salt flats though.
-
This is a little off thread but Steve do you think we had less wrenching going on in staging this past season? It may have been just that I was up there a lot less or that we had fewer entries or that I'm just wrong. I know there will always be last minute adjustments and things happen, but I think between limiting access on the road, pre-stage, Al's training (of a great team) when he wasn't with us, and racers just plain being ready to race really kept it going.
-
I don't think the members here will mind a small hijack Ken and yes, I agree that things did seem to move very well this season.
Obviously, our goal is to safely put as many vehicles down the track as possible in the limited timeframe we operate, to ensure maximum enjoyment of our paying customers.
But sometimes things happen (that's racing afterall) and we usually manage to work around vehicles and crews that have to make a last minute adjustment or fix. We don't want anyone making a run, that isn't as ready as possible.
I don't think that we had fewer entries, we seemed to manage to stay busy and usually have to turn some hardliners away at the end of the racing day. Racers just plain being ready to race is a big help and we really appreciate it.
-
The ECTA needs to consider using a lineup number like El-Mirage. They use vehicle standings in points to establish lineup position. everybody gets a run,1 thru to the last guy, then they start over. At Maxton, the bikes make a run then speed thru the pits back to the starting line. The cars stop, pack the chute, etc...
The ECTA keeps a point system for season standings, IMHO it's time to use it and control the lineup so everyone gets a pass before people start getting second runs.
equal opportunity for all racers....
-
One of the main reasons for the El Mirage lineup was changed to its present form was that there would be people arriving at the lakebed on Tuesday or Wednesday to save line up spots. As many know, George Callaway's ranch is adjacent to the lakebed and his club members would keep their cars there betweenmeets. George would tow the cars out to save line up spots.
We did away with leaving trucks or trailers in line too.
Good luck with this issue,
DW
-
LSR Mike,
I am not sure Maxton is having a problem. Seems like the workers (and racers) work well together and things run quite smooth. Only when a major disruption occurs does it get just a wee bit slow.. but works out very well.
"IF" and that is a big IF,, Maxton ever gets to the point that we have to go to a line up order/system, then I would think that using points ranking would be a good way to line them up for the FIRST run of each day. That way each entry is "mostly" assured to get one run each day.
After the first run each day (based on points) all subsequent runs go by our current and courteous system.,.(first come first served)
Just my thoughts...
Charles
-
I've waited in line at Maxton and USUALLY the other competitors are cool about not jumping places. There have been a good number of instances where I've seen a bike go right by me -- but said bike is one of the heavy-hitters and is going up to get the tire warmers back on the rubber. They leave a cone or a crew member in place in the line, though, so nobody gets shorted.
However -- there've been more than a few instances when a non-tire warmer bike has gone sailing by me and the others in the line. I don't jump out to stop the rider (usually don't notice 'til he's gone on past me and I don't want to run like the dickens to catch up), but - - I'm still in line, waiting and shooting the breeze with the other racers in line, when that same bike goes past me AGAIN -- having made a run and getting back in line to make another, still in front of me. That's when I'll get a vehicle number and let the race director know what's happening.
And the times when we've had to end racing for the day while vehicles are still in line -- well, Mark Amhrein moseys down the line and marks down in order of appearance the vehicle number -- so we can get back in the same (relative) position when racing resumes the next day.
To sum it up: I wouldn't be upset if ECTA adopted a numbering system -- let the #1 - 10 vehicles from last year's season go first, then rely on some well-thought out system of letting all the other racers get in one run before beginning second runs. Hey -- we could use vehicle numbers -- yeah, that'd be great. We run #439 -- and lots of the Maxton numbers are 4 digits long. Sure -- we'd be near the front of the line that way. Great idea.
-
Never been west of the big muddy, probably never will; but check our run logs. How many other venues get racers down the track every 2 minutes?
-
Ken, I agree...
SSS... I have a 3 digit number as well !!!
I really don't think we have a problem,,, maybe an occasional "line jumper" but we can self police this for now, as we always have.
But if we ever had to use a system,, year end points would be better than car or bike number,, (everyone would be trying to get new lower #s).. Oh well ..and like I said before,,, if we had a system,, I would only employ it for the FIRST RUN of each race day.
Charles
-
Bonneville and El Mirage average 2 minutes a run... been tracking it for a couple years. The issue isn't the number of runs, or how fast they occur, The issue it's that some guys run twice as many times as others. The last Muroc Meet, line up position was determined by when your registration was received. but it was a one time Special event. IMHO I think more structure than first guy to the line makes a pass is needed.
what do I know? I race a truck.....
-
SCTA uses the points system. Points are from the prior meet and listed on their web site before the next meet. They are called to the lines in groups of 25. After all vehicles have run the first round they are recalled for the 2nd round. Easy and it works. 1-25, 26-50 etc. After the meet and points for that meet are posted for the next month. :? :cheers:
-
If you have a guy cutting line:
Doctor the timeslip dropping him down 5mph each time he runs. When you see him starting to set his bike on fire in the pits, take away his lighter then tell him what you did and ask him to knock it off.
:cheers:
Elmo's system is excellent, and what mostly holds up runs is dust, not normally the racers/workers. The coolest thing about Elmo system, is you get to work on your car in the pits without worrying about missing a run. You get in line only when it's your group's turn.
But fast and simple is to get Avery dots and stick them on each pass. Two colors for 2 day events. "Fun-Day" Drags and AutoX often do this.
-
But fast and simple is to get Avery dots and stick them on each pass. Two colors for 2 day events. "Fun-Day" Drags and AutoX often do this.
I don't want no stinking POKIE DOTS on my Race Car :-D :? :evil: :cheers:
Charles
-
They can red,white and black dots for you Charles. :-D :-D
Robbie
-
I'd suggest the little Care Bear stickers, except they are more $.
"OK, I see you have Poppa Smurf and a Unicorn, you are done for today ..."
:|
-
at el mirage starting line position is determined by the points you have earned for that year--the first race of the year (may) starting position is determined by your points from the year before--- they call up 25 vehicles at a time to prestage and there directed to stageing lanes in order---- at el mirage we are competing for car and bike championship ---club points and starting line position---the order is posted on scta-bni.org in el mirage under 09 then results ---if everyone doesnt get at least 1 run then no one gets any points --records still count--after the first round (everyone has ran 1 time ) then it starts all over --after everyone has had 2 runs i starts over again --when there are very few racers left sometimes they will call up everyone---its a great system and its fair to all---------if you finish in the top 25 you get to run that number the next year
sometimes when im waiting in line at bonneville i will go over my bike and check for loose or broken parts sometimes i will wash the salt off or take a nap in the truck----not much time for that at el mirage get to say hello to friends take a couple pics. then your 3 back --put on the helmet time to go willie buchta
-
My 1/2 cents worth of input on this one. I have only seen a bike or two hot lap with someone holding a place in line. One of them I spoke with in a very calm, cool and collected manner. I didn't see him hot lap again, it might have been my oldest son standing behind me that helped. The other rider only did it once. I think Kieth or Al had a chat. I have seen a rider that looked to have more than one bike in line that someone else was holding in line for him. Overall it does not seem to be much of a problem. I have yet to run at Maxton without getting at least 2 or 3 runs, even with a Saturday rain. Some people might not get 2 runs if they don't run Sunday or they spend half the day in the pits making changes. With El Mirage I could think that the course conditions and weather have more of an issue than we run into at Maxton. I personally would not like to see us to go to a points system, and I am speaking as someone sitting as #3 in points from last year. I would benefit with the system but I don't think it is needed and would add a more work to the volunteer staff and race organizers.
-
My 1/2 cents worth of input on this one. I have only seen a bike or two hot lap with someone holding a place in line. One of them I spoke with in a very calm, cool and collected manner. I didn't see him hot lap again, it might have been my oldest son standing behind me that helped. The other rider only did it once. I think Kieth or Al had a chat. I have seen a rider that looked to have more than one bike in line that someone else was holding in line for him. Overall it does not seem to be much of a problem. I have yet to run at Maxton without getting at least 2 or 3 runs, even with a Saturday rain. Some people might not get 2 runs if they don't run Sunday or they spend half the day in the pits making changes. With El Mirage I could think that the course conditions and weather have more of an issue than we run into at Maxton. I personally would not like to see us to go to a points system, and I am speaking as someone sitting as #3 in points from last year. I would benefit with the system but I don't think it is needed and would add a more work to the volunteer staff and race organizers.
Big + 1
Different venues and different conditions, different operation works best at each.
Now that Al has more help he is able to keep a closer eye on things, and we all know who is boss in staging/starting..............
Ed Purinton
-
Ed is right about the different venues. SCTA has a El Mirage procedure we use for the dry lakes only. It over rules the rule book in some areas and for the conditions of the lake bed distance etc. It can be found on the SCTA web site.
-
Bonneville and El Mirage average 2 minutes a run... been tracking it for a couple years. The issue isn't the number of runs, or how fast they occur, The issue it's that some guys run twice as many times as others. The last Muroc Meet, line up position was determined by when your registration was received. but it was a one time Special event. IMHO I think more structure than first guy to the line makes a pass is needed.
what do I know? I race a truck.....
The system in place seems to work very well. After you run, you get back in line at your own pace. Some take their time, some dont even stop to get their time slip. We all do a good job in watching out so everyone is fair. My bike requiers a tire warmer, after saying to the guys in pre-stage "thats me in line with you I head to the tire area. When my group of 10-20 riders come to staging, I get at the end of that pack in line. I may have been 2nd or 3rd in that line but it only seems right for me to go to the end. Most other hot tire bikes do the same. I beleive the real bad feelings of "he ran more then I" or I only got x runs and others got more" really comes down to poor line choosing. 3 lines to pick from, you pick one that looks short but isn't, then you are going to get less runs no matter what. I have done it, been in line and watched the other 2 lines move so fast I wonder what is going on...count the vehicals in line and you'll do better! 5 cars can equel 20 bikes :cry:
Bill
-
I have no probleem with the way things are now. We seem to police each other very well.
We can 3 to 4 runs a day and don't hot lap just go at our own pace.
Car guys have more to do between runs then bikes so they can get more runs than us but thats just the nature of the beast.
Robbie
-
Only been doing this for three years, only compete with myself , best year tied for something like 42nd in the bikes: but since I make no more than 5 passes a meet (and always had time for atleast one more), I could wait until Sunday. However, entry fees are the same for everyone.
One point that has been made may be the most important of all -- people speeding through the pits or on the return/approach road. We've all seen it to one degree or another. We take our own chances but no one should take them for others. We're getting more and more spectators who may have never been to any kind of race, much less one with open pits. Most of the folks doing this are focused on the next run (or the last) and I doubt are deliberately risking others well being I am sure --But!
-
IMHO.........this issue is a very very minor irritation. Let's not try to fix something that is not really broken.
Peter
-
Peter,,,, I agree,,, see you in April ?
FYI-- on my poll topic,, I posted pics of my Stude builds paint scheme...
Charles
-
It's not broke.Some do try to hold spots but,most work together.
terry
-
Great!
God willing and the creeks don't rise....I'll be there in April!.........ready to wait in line......patiently! :cheers: Merry Christmas to all!
-
I do have 1 suggestion that may cut down on some of the "stress" while in the staging lanes. For the ultra-high HP tire warmed bikes that have a cone saving their place in line; if we use a larger "standardize" cone with the bike’s number clearly visible, I think it would cut down on some of the “hard feelings”. I couldn't count how many times I've "calmed down" the newer folk because they didn't see the cone in line and didn't understand why the turbo bike just came around them to run. Or when there is 2 or 3 blue turbo ‘Busas running at the same meet that give the appearance of 1 bike constantly breaking line.
-
Good Idea Ransom T.
Very easy solution to the situation and super easy to comply with.
-
The spot holding at Maxton is only done with tire heaters and it is not a problem ... a cone is left and I have moved it forward when a cone was ahead of me for one of the rocket ship pilots ... I havent ever seen a jerk cut the line yet at Maxton ... cant say the same about Bub's ... The prestage at Maxton makes it easier as there is one single long line and 15 at a time usually move up to the staging area ... I doubt anyone can do better then Maxton with 40 runs in an hour ...
-
YOU GO JOE.
I agree
-
While we don't have the problem (?!) of needing tire warmers -- and therefore of putting a cone in place-- speaking of cones, we've got a dozen or so of them, and each one has a "SSS" written on at least two sides -- so everyone knows whose it is. Saves from getting them inadvertently taken by someone else when clearing the pits -- would also make it known whose cone that is in line. Are YOUR cones labeled?
-
I volunteer to hand label the girls cones.. have sharpie with me all the time :evil: :evil: :cheers:
-
It ain't broke. . . leave it alone. The only real exceptions are for those bikes with the tire warmers and perhaps those bikes that use the roller starter thingies.
First come, first served. You get to run as often as you can - weather and conditions, and number of entrants permitting.
You see someone cutting the line, have a conversation and if that doesn't fix it then refer the matter to one of the volunteers running the starting area. Be happy with whatever the outcome is even if you have a different view.
Otherwise we might end up with one of those rules-deals where you line up A to Z, by age, tallest first, except Sunday on even numbered months for cars with numbers ending in even numbers and bikes with odd numbers, ladies before men.
I can understand why Elmo has the rules for starting position . . . considering their changing surface conditions, points, etc. Maxton really does not have to be concerned with that. The concrete doesn't change as the meet progresses.
-
2007 at Bubs was a line cutting disaster but Delvene remedied the situation in 2008. Now you must bring your bike up to staging and they verify it is there and that is your place in line. No bike in line means you are not in line, period!!! If you have to leave to go to the pits to fix something you start over.
-
LittleLiner,
I agree if aint broke dont fix it, and if you don't have it it won't break :-D
We have never had a problem, but if we do see Al. Because Al's always right!!!
Robbie
-
Thanks for the support, guys. I agree that there really isn't a problem and the rare disagreements should best be solved on an individual basis. I think it's a mistake to try to make rules for every occasion - and to try to guess what MIGHT arise and make rules for that, too. Common sense, while uncommon, seems to work best and, I think, gets applied at Maxton pretty well.
I also think that pre-stage has helped a lot. I work it often and every one in a while I've had to flag someone down and get them back in line (usually a new competitor) but virtually everyone is pretty good about waiting patiently.
I'm lucky to get two or three runs per meet but that's because I'm busy helping to run the meet and I'm OK with that. Steve (WM), Ken (Relaxed Fit) and many others are in the same boat and they're OK with it, too. The decision has been made that none of the volunteers get to go first even though it would free some of them up to get to their post and get to work. The Management feels it's important that we set NO precedent for line jumping, no matter what the reason. Makes sense when you think about it.
Dan
-
Here's a picture of Todd/Debbie's cone when they were behind me. I just put the cone on the back of my truck so I didn't have to pick it up every time we moved.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs016.snc1/2978_164642865292_740915292_6462114_755755_n.jpg)
-
Thanks for the support, guys. I agree that there really isn't a problem and the rare disagreements should best be solved on an individual basis. I think it's a mistake to try to make rules for every occasion - and to try to guess what MIGHT arise and make rules for that, too. Common sense, while uncommon, seems to work best and, I think, gets applied at Maxton pretty well.
I also think that pre-stage has helped a lot. I work it often and every one in a while I've had to flag someone down and get them back in line (usually a new competitor) but virtually everyone is pretty good about waiting patiently.
I'm lucky to get two or three runs per meet but that's because I'm busy helping to run the meet and I'm OK with that. Steve (WM), Ken (Relaxed Fit) and many others are in the same boat and they're OK with it, too. The decision has been made that none of the volunteers get to go first even though it would free some of them up to get to their post and get to work. The Management feels it's important that we set NO precedent for line jumping, no matter what the reason. Makes sense when you think about it.
Dan
Steve Dan Ken . If I am around at dinner time your money is no good . I cant thank you guys enough for what you do.
-
I am a HUGE fan of doing nothing when less is required....
I'm a bigger fan of Extremely limited special treatment... I actually typed NOBODY first but there might be the rare occasion where I chose to do something for someone, Missed time... and so on ... Just no preferential treatment as a norm....
-
I am a HUGE fan of doing nothing when less is required....
Right on Keith.....
Less is more in many cases. Hope ya'll had a good Holiday. See you in April.
Charles
-
I am a HUGE fan of doing nothing when less is required....
I'm a bigger fan of Extremely limited special treatment... I actually typed NOBODY first but there might be the rare occasion where I chose to do something for someone, Missed time... and so on ... Just no preferential treatment as a norm....
I want to know when we are going to start the senior citizens free pass to the front of the line, or the follicly challenged free pass to the front of the line, or better yet a combination of the above :?
See ya all in April, I will finish up the mods on the Wabbit starting in February when I get back to South Carolina, but right now I'm sitting here in my 'Bird enjoying the California weather here on the beach at Point Magu :roll:
I don't know who's cone that is in front of me, but I'll sit here waiting patiently.
(http://www.pbase.com/iamflagman/image/120590899/large.jpg)
By the way Charles I choose the red, black and white paint scheme on the Stude :-D
-
John,
Great pic .... Drive back safe,,, see you in April...
Charles