Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: HotRodV8 on December 03, 2009, 10:11:49 PM
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Since I'm so new to LSR, I read some posts and get ideas. If I planned to build a small engine streamliner, could I use a small oxygen tank from an oxygen acetylene welding outfit and spray "pure" welding oxygen into the air intake of my liner? Even if it only lasted for part of the run.
Would it be legal and would it work? Must have been tried before, no?
I looked for this in the SCTA rule book. Found no reference. Do they consider "pure" welding oxygen a fuel?
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HRV8... practice it with you old lawn mower... :evil:
It would be almost impossible to run rich enough for the motor to live through it....
N2O carries about 12% more oxygen than air... (I remember something like that) and just a little lean will melt you to death.
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I wouldn't do it if I were you. I would be stunned if they permitted it.
Nitrous is used because it's a relatively safe way of doing what you're suggesting.
Compressed oxygen will explode in the presence of hydrocarbons, like oil, gas, certain gasket materials, etc. Aluminum ignites with heat, pressure, and high O2 concentrations. I'm pretty sure a N/A engine will ignite it's pistons with pure O2.
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HRV8... practice it with you old lawn mower... :evil:
It would be almost impossible to run rich enough for the motor to live through it....
N2O carries about 12% more oxygen than air... (I remember something like that) and just a little lean will melt you to death.
Stainless - well that makes this a short thread. Operating a cutting torch teaches me what too much oxygen can do to metal. Thanks for saving me an engine build.
BTW, my whole life I have found it to be almost "impossible to run rich enough."
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If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine. This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.
Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...
I'm kidding folks! Seriously kidding.
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McRat --
I thought if I could regulate the O2 (and i don't know how) I could get significant more power on a small engine.
I was trying to stay away from a turbo and intercooler because of the bulk and cost and just stay with an NA engine.
Thanks for your knowledge.
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I had that same thought. I asked an SCTA official and the answer was no.
I tried to argue that it isn't an illegal fuel, because it's an oxidizer.
Nitrous oxide is a special case because there is a specific rule putting it in "fuel" class.
Anyway, no.
PS: All of the info says you can't run oxygen because it will burn the piston in nothing flat. I disagree. Oxygen in any kind of quantity causes the fuel to burn too hot and will indeed burn things up. On the other hand, very small quantities won't, and will add a bunch of horsepower.
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Since I'm so new to LSR, I read some posts and get ideas. If I planned to build a small engine streamliner, could I use a small oxygen tank from an oxygen acetylene welding outfit and spray "pure" welding oxygen into the air intake of my liner? Even if it only lasted for part of the run.
Would it be legal and would it work? Must have been tried before, no?
I looked for this in the SCTA rule book. Found no reference. Do they consider "pure" welding oxygen a fuel?
The more things change the more they stay the same ....Or put another way, There is nothing new under the sun!
During a period of great mechanical ingenuity there were several different examples of internal combustion engines modified to run on fuel and pure oxygen. These were used to power torpedo's during WW2.
Here is a Wiki link to one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_torpedo
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If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine. This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.
Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...
I'm kidding folks! Seriously kidding.
McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
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Since I'm so new to LSR, I read some posts and get ideas. If I planned to build a small engine streamliner, could I use a small oxygen tank from an oxygen acetylene welding outfit and spray "pure" welding oxygen into the air intake of my liner? Even if it only lasted for part of the run.
Would it be legal and would it work? Must have been tried before, no?
I looked for this in the SCTA rule book. Found no reference. Do they consider "pure" welding oxygen a fuel?
The more things change the more they stay the same ....Or put another way, There is nothing new under the sun!
During a period of great mechanical ingenuity there were several different examples of internal combustion engines modified to run on fuel and pure oxygen. These were used to power torpedo's during WW2.
Here is a Wiki link to one example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_torpedo
...Quote from article:
...However, compressed oxygen is more dangerous to handle and it required lengthy testing and experimentation for operational use to be possible. Finally, engineers discovered that by starting the engine with compressed air and gradually switching over to pure oxygen, they were able to overcome the uncontrollable explosions that had hampered its development. To conceal the use of oxygen, the oxygen tank was named Secondary Air Tank. It was first deployed in 1935.
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Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.
Oxygen is an agent that supports the combustion of fuel by definition, so not a fuel.
We breathe oxygen but eat burritos for fuel -you know what the results are.
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I seem to remember someone telling me once that running an engine with a pure O2 mix was a bad idea due to heat collection. The nitrogen in the ambient mix actually collects a fair amount of heat in the combustion chamber and that heat is exhausted with the nitrogen. Along with the myriad of reasons already mentioned...
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gearheadeh - -
I read the Wiki link and saw that the Japanese used pure O2 in their torpedo engines. They had some explosions starting it, so they used compressed air to start and then switched to pure compressed O2. These are the same dangers McRat talked about.
So here is the plan, I'll tell Tech that I am only going to use the O2 during the third mile of the return run. Like an all or nothing thing. LOL.
P.S. 10 years ago I rode my motorcycle to Calrary from Florida. A beautiful end to a great trip. Eh.
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gearheadeh - -
So here is the plan, I'll tell Tech that I am only going to use the O2 during the third mile of the return run. Like an all or nothing thing. LOL. :-D
P.S. 10 years ago I rode my motorcycle to Calrary from Florida. A beautiful end to a great trip. Eh.
Yes this is a beautiful place we all live in, You just reminded me of a trip I took 28 years ago on my Hercules Rotary powered motorbike. Covered 5000 miles in 10 days travelling time. Calgary to Denver to watch the Mile High Nationals, Then on to what was for me the racing Meca: Los Angeles to watch more racing and go to as many speed shops as I could, Then up to Bakersfield to visit a friend,over to the coast highway for some cruising. Back thru Spokane to Canada. As I recall the tires were so thin you could almost tell if I had summer or winter air in them when I came to the Canadian Customs. The customs inspector used a common stik in asking if I had done any repairs while in the States such as buy tires? I responded by pointing out how worn they were and avoided the question about if I had made any major purchases. I clean forgot about the Mark Williams Pro 5.14 :1 Ford nine inch rear end gears I had in my back pack. :mrgreen:
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[/quote]
McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
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I have an old Hot Rod mag somewhere in the garage with an ad for what you are talking about. Now I'll have to go waste an hour looking for it!
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Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.
You are 100% correct. Back in the early 1980's I went to Barney's shop to see if he was interested in updating his Flathead heads to newer standards. He was interested so we worked together for the next several years developing what is now his Hi Dome head. But that is another story.
While I was working with him he told me stories about the old days of racing at the tracks and how Old Man Edelbrock was running Nitro in his midgets. Said it was no secret especially when you got behind him in a race. Barney used to write articles for either Hot Rod or Hop Up, so he writes this article on how Edelbrock is running Nitro in his midgets. Well back then all advertisers got a copy of the magazine before it went to print. When Edelbrock saw the article he had a fit, called up the Editor of the Magazine and told him he was going to cancel all his ads unless the article was retracted. The Editor took the liberty of changing the article around and eliminating what Edelbrock did not like, to keep him happy. When Barney saw the article he was furious, went in to the editor and said this is not what I wrote. The editor told Barney what happened with Vic Edelbrock and said he had to change his article. Well needless to say Barney pissed and never wrote another article for that magazine.
So Barney decided to up Edelbrock at this own game and use Oxygen. He told me they took a 6" diameter Pipe about 4' long and would inject oxygen into it with a flame. He said at first it sounded like a tommy gun going off, but louder. He said it was so loud the Glendale Police would be called and drive by looking for the culprits making the noise. Finally they got the ratio of Oxygen down to where it would burn and not boom. Then he converted his center carb on his flathead to work off Oxygen. Said it was a fine line, that when it worked it worked great, but when it didn't he would melt the carb off the manifold. I believe he was the one that got it banned. Those were some great stories.
Tom G.
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Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.
You are 100% correct. Back in the early 1980's I went to Barney's shop to see if he was interested in updating his Flathead heads to newer standards. He was interested so we worked together for the next several years developing what is now his Hi Dome head. But that is another story.
While I was working with him he told me stories about the old days of racing at the tracks and how Old Man Edelbrock was running Nitro in his midgets. Said it was no secret especially when you got behind him in a race. Barney used to write articles for either Hot Rod or Hop Up, so he writes this article on how Edelbrock is running Nitro in his midgets. Well back then all advertisers got a copy of the magazine before it went to print. When Edelbrock saw the article he had a fit, called up the Editor of the Magazine and told him he was going to cancel all his ads unless the article was retracted. The Editor took the liberty of changing the article around and eliminating what Edelbrock did not like, to keep him happy. When Barney saw the article he was furious, went in to the editor and said this is not what I wrote. The editor told Barney what happened with Vic Edelbrock and said he had to change his article. Well needless to say Barney pissed and never wrote another article for that magazine.
So Barney decided to up Edelbrock at this own game and use Oxygen. He told me they took a 6" diameter Pipe about 4' long and would inject oxygen into it with a flame. He said at first it sounded like a tommy gun going off, but louder. He said it was so loud the Glendale Police would be called and drive by looking for the culprits making the noise. Finally they got the ratio of Oxygen down to where it would burn and not boom. Then he converted his center carb on his flathead to work off Oxygen. Said it was a fine line, that when it worked it worked great, but when it didn't he would melt the carb off the manifold. I believe he was the one that got it banned. Those were some great stories.
Tom G.
Tom G. aka desotoman --
What a great story. That story should be in a book somewhere.
So interesting that others like Barney Navarro tried oxygen years ago. More interesting is that he got it to work. . . some of the time. I appreciate you telling us this story.
Now, if you can get that ratio recipe he used please PM me. LOL.
I knew I should have been born in California instead of New Jersey.
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The real problem with oxygen comes when there's an accident. A minor accident becomes a major conflagration if the valve or regulator system is damaged. I doubt whether any responsible racing organization would allow an oxygen cylinder in a race car. I know there was a fatality at Bonneville a lot of years ago when the driver of a streamliner was using breathing oxygen. I think that probably ended the use of oxygen in lsr right there.
Pete
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The real problem with oxygen comes when there's an accident. A minor accident becomes a major conflagration if the valve or regulator system is damaged. I doubt whether any responsible racing organization would allow an oxygen cylinder in a race car. I know there was a fatality at Bonneville a lot of years ago when the driver of a streamliner was using breathing oxygen. I think that probably ended the use of oxygen in lsr right there.
Pete
Pete --
I think you are correct. I don't know the history of Bonneville but I take your info at face value. I do remember reading in the rule book about no use of breathing by oxygen tank. The reality of using an oxygen cylinder is not the problem with burning up an engine, but with the dangers of a broken or damaged oxygen cylinder inside a vehicle during an accident. Again, I refer back to the dangers McRat spoke of before.
Your story also reminds me of a commercial jet plane crash about 5 years ago here in Florida. It may have been Jet Blue Airlines? Not sure. They shipped used passenger oxygen cylinders on a commercial flight, with some oxygen remaining in them, back to a maintenance airport to be filled. During the flight, the cylinders leaked, easily causing an on-board fire that burned VERY quickly. The plane came straight down in the Everglades. The majority of the passengers and fuselage were never found deep in the muck.
I now feel the reality of using oxygen is not a matter of engine performance, but a matter of life and death. My question has been answered.
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If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine. This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.
Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...
I'm kidding folks! Seriously kidding.
McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
Google "Turbonique"
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Concentrated Hydrogen Peroxide is nasty stuff. At a plant where I worked we used 50% for bleaching. A drop on your skin instantly bleached and burned the skin. Piping and storage vessels were high purity aluminul or 316 ss. the SS had to be passified with nitric acid be for use. 75% hydrogen peroxide was delivered by truck and diluted to 50%, A new driver emptied out his delivery hose of 75% on the ground. Within 1/2 an hour the ground was on fire.
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Let`s not forget Mickey Thompson`s "Thermo-Charger". A bank of high pressure cylinders on a manifold feeding into where the blower should have been.
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If I WERE going to try such a thing, I'd use a retail car, hopefully one with a DI gasoline (2009 V6 Camaro) or diesel engine. This way you don't have to worry about pre-ignition, since the fuel is injected during late compression cycle, not before.
Now concentrated hydrogen peroxide might be a lot of fun ...
I'm kidding folks! Seriously kidding.
McRat - Let me UN-Seriously Kidding you. As I scratch my head, I seem to remember that back in the 60's they had a hydrogen peroxide kit you could put on your differential and you could ignite it for a limited time on the drag strip or even on the street. The hp increase was big time. Does anyone remember these kits? NO kidding.
Google "Turbonique"
floydjer - -
I did Google Turbonique and was happily surprised to see so much info on this hydrogen peroxide rocket motor to adapt to a differential. It all came back to me. I remember seeing those pictures of the go-kart racing and beating a fuel dragster. I remember an ad saying "Bolt on 850 hp." And it was developed by a guy in Florida, ex NASA employee. I almost bought one of these. If I did I would have remembered that name.
One Google article talked about an Australian Rosco McGlashan who in 1980 drove a go-kart that went 253 mph. He was known as Australian's fastest man. The article ended with Rosco planning an assult on the world land speed record.
The same article mentioned that NHRA banned the use of this bolt-on rocket motor because of the associations with explosions and the use of hydrogen peroxide itself.
floydjer, thanks for that info source.
How come all the fun and go fast stuff is so dangerous?
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I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract. First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.
Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.
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I`m hoping Freud chimes in soon.
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I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract. First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.
Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.
McRat - -
You lost me on this one. I believe you were talking about your truck which has a turbo. My experience is zero with turbos. I haven't raced in 45 years and I have no idea what H2O2 might do if you tried it as you say. If you do, heed your own handling cautions. And perhaps you might try that on a cheaper motor first.
The reason I wondered about oxygen injection is because of my lack of experience with turbos. I was looking for a cheap, mild-exotic way to increase power in a small engine that I could afford to do. I don't have 8 to 10 years to learn and experiment with turbos. Six months ago, I didn't know what an intercooler was. I still don't know what they look like inside. I haven't seen any of those pictures yet. However, I don't consider turbos to be a new trick, yet I do consider myself an old dog.
I want so much to race on the salt. I feel like buying one of those cattle salt licks and putting it in the back yard. When the frustration level gets too high, I'd go out back for a few minutes.
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I was going to inject the H2O2 into the intake tract. First it would cool the charge air, then when the piston came up, I believe the heat will cause it to disassociate (turn to steam) and increase cylinder pressure a great amount drop EGT's compared to fueling at same HP, increase boost, and improve piston and turbo life.
Not sure if it will react by heat alone, or how much heat it would take, or whether the reaction would be fast enough.
McRat - -
You lost me on this one. I believe you were talking about your truck which has a turbo. My experience is zero with turbos. I haven't raced in 45 years and I have no idea what H2O2 might do if you tried it as you say. If you do, heed your own handling cautions. And perhaps you might try that on a cheaper motor first.
The reason I wondered about oxygen injection is because of my lack of experience with turbos. I was looking for a cheap, mild-exotic way to increase power in a small engine that I could afford to do. I don't have 8 to 10 years to learn and experiment with turbos. Six months ago, I didn't know what an intercooler was. I still don't know what they look like inside. I haven't seen any of those pictures yet. However, I don't consider turbos to be a new trick, yet I do consider myself an old dog.
I want so much to race on the salt. I feel like buying one of those cattle salt licks and putting it in the back yard. When the frustration level gets too high, I'd go out back for a few minutes.
Nitrous is what you are looking for. Two solenoids, one fuel, one nitrous, retard timing, and instant turbo.
H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide. It also releases oxygen. It is both an oxidizer, and a monopropellant - something that burns all by itself with no air needed. And something that can explode and kill you without warning.
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Keep it in mind that H2O2, Hydrazine, Propylene Oxide, and any other thing that might come to mind isn't an "approved fuel".
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I'd like to see them add aluminum to the approved fuel list. Seems to give me a good HP boost to use the pistons for fuel.
Refuelling however, sucks. :|
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Seriously, "moderation in all things" applies to a lot of non-standard power adders and chemicals.
Oxygen probably can't hurt at low levels. Water/Meth is safe, nitrous, propane injection (diesel), and IMO anti-freeze as well, IF YOU DON'T GO NUTS. Too much meth will wreck a diesel, too much nitrous can backfire violently, getting greedy with BBQ bottle has busted lots of diesels, and 25% coolant is no real danger, but 100% is. Low concentration H2O2 is very safe as well, I use it to clean wounds all the time.
A good example of an allowable fuel that is potentially dangerous if misused is 2EHN. A diesel fuel additive for improving combustion, it is permitted in DS and UDT (but oddly not other classes, even though many of the tow trucks in the pits have it, and premium pump diesel contains some). In it's diluted state it's the most common diesel fuel treatment on earth. But in it's pure state it's dangerous to handle. If it gets too warm, even a sealed container will explode, and certain chemicals will also ignite it. But once in solution, it's very safe.
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Seriously, "moderation in all things" applies to a lot of non-standard power adders and chemicals.
Oxygen probably can't hurt at low levels. Water/Meth is safe, nitrous, propane injection (diesel), and IMO anti-freeze as well, IF YOU DON'T GO NUTS. Too much meth will wreck a diesel, too much nitrous can backfire violently, getting greedy with BBQ bottle has busted lots of diesels, and 25% coolant is no real danger, but 100% is. Low concentration H2O2 is very safe as well, I use it to clean wounds all the time.
A good example of an allowable fuel that is potentially dangerous if misused is 2EHN. A diesel fuel additive for improving combustion, it is permitted in DS and UDT (but oddly not other classes, even though many of the tow trucks in the pits have it, and premium pump diesel contains some). In it's diluted state it's the most common diesel fuel treatment on earth. But in it's pure state it's dangerous to handle. If it gets too warm, even a sealed container will explode, and certain chemicals will also ignite it. But once in solution, it's very safe.
Take oxyacetylene, how many of us have it in our shops? Acetylene without an inhibitor will readily explode from heat, pressure, spark or open flame. Use it in moderation and it is one of the most powerful tools in the shop. It can be used to bend, cut, swell or loosen depending on your needs. Take out the moderators and it can raise a roof several hundred feet in the air in short order. Most things in life work best under some form of moderation, that's the trick.
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Reaching back into dim memory, seems like the pioneer Barney Navarro tried it either at the lakes or Bonneville.
Oxygen is an agent that supports the combustion of fuel by definition, so not a fuel.
We breathe oxygen but eat burritos for fuel -you know what the results are.
Extract from Hot Rod bio of Barney (http://www.hotrod.com/newsstand/hrdp_0805_hot_rod_legend_barney_navarro/index.html (http://www.hotrod.com/newsstand/hrdp_0805_hot_rod_legend_barney_navarro/index.html)):
That day, Barney ran 109 mph with a 182ci V-8 he hadn't even fired until he got to the Lakes (there was no time to fool around; he knew it would run) and was clocking about 135 on alcohol (by his tach) when the fuel mixture backfired through a pair of oxygen-injected 97s and his engine caught fire. The final photo showed Barney intently putting out the blaze himself with a Pyrene extinguisher. Asked how he felt about the situation, Barney snapped, "I know what's the matter, and next time, I'm installing a bigger fuel line. And then: the record!"
Mike
Edit: fixed link to work :oops:
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when you use nitrous oxide you arnt putting any oxygen into the system until the nitrous comes up to temp. then it turns to 34 percent oxygen----about 14 percent more than the air that you breath---it is very safe until it comes up to temp. ----much better to use than oxygen too willie buchta
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Oxygen injection reminds me of the old trick where you put a styrofoam coffee cup upside down on the floor with a small hole in the bottom , adjust the flame on the torch to neutral , snuff out the flame on the sole of your shoe , put the tip in the hole in the cup till all the air is gone and relight the torch and point it at the cup . Many db Kambam!! and no cup/engine .
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Oxygen injection reminds me of the old trick where you put a styrofoam coffee cup upside down on the floor with a small hole in the bottom , adjust the flame on the torch to neutral , snuff out the flame on the sole of your shoe , put the tip in the hole in the cup till all the air is gone and relight the torch and point it at the cup . Many db Kambam!! and no cup/engine .
John Burk - -
Small world after all. That is where I learned about the power of oxygen. I worked in a Wayne, New Jersey body shop and I was taught the same lesson. We actually used large paper cups we had from our lunch meal. Put them on the work bench, on their side with the plastic lid over the edge, remove the straw and put the torch into the straw hole and fill. Then came hi-tech. We put about 8 inches of masking tape over the hole with it hanging down as the fuse. After you lit the bottom of the tape, you had a good 6 or 7 seconds to walk over to the other side of the shop and turn.
The boss sometimes got mad because all the dust from the rafters would come down on the cars. And now, 45 years later, I'm trying to light that fuse again and go fast. Things never change.
BTW, did you drive a 1962 Chevy 409 by any chance?
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2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels. You are right, the amount makes a difference. 2% hydrogen peroxide cleans your wound and 100% cleans your rocket.
Acetylene will explode if you turn the pressure up too high. The acetylene is contained in a metal cylinder with a porous filling (Agamassan), which renders it safe to transport and use.
Fill up a cup? I took an 8" party balloon and filled it with oxy/acetylene. I put it in an empty dumpster and used a trail of gasoline for a fuse. It blew both doors into a really nice arch shape.
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-I tried the link to the Navarro story---couldn't get it to work but got to the story with this link
http://www.hotrod.com/newsstand/hrdp_0805_hot_rod_legend_barney_navarro/index.html
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Fill up a cup? I took an 8" party balloon and filled it with oxy/acetylene. I put it in an empty dumpster and used a trail of gasoline for a fuse. It blew both doors into a really nice arch shape.
a fool I know filled a lilo( air mattress) as a stunt at a New Years Eve party held by some bikers, not sure of the mix but there were local reports of an earthquake(!) and less than subtle recriminations from the attendees for the collateral damage and the fact that the gendarmes arrived , and closed it down .
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2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
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I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines? It does oxygenate to an extent.
For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles. For LSR, none.
Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends. Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims. I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel. Pity...
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The Russian super-cavitating "Shkval" rocket Torpedo uses Aluminum for fuel. It's claimed to reach speeds of over 200 knots. Remember, that's underwater. Be nice to get one of these already streamlined beauties on wheels, see what it does on land.
Google this and you'll be stuck in WW II War stories for hours.
Bob, Fuelish, W
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2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
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I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines? It does oxygenate to an extent.
For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles. For LSR, none.
Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends. Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims. I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel. Pity...
McRat - -
I want to say that I have been impressed with the extent of your replies related to my oxygen question. Your knowledge of diesel and other related fuels gave me an education of the complexity of my question of looking for more power with just simple oxygen. It is clear to me why you hold several records in the diesel class. I don't ever think I'd be able to run in a diesel class because you have shown me there is too much for me to learn to be competitive. However, I must say I am totally impressed with those diesel transAm cars I see racing on Speed TV.
I'll probably stick with the gas route and perhaps go with a turbo if I feel frisky. I am more of a mechanical guy then a chemist. However, plan B could always take your suggestion of nitrous oxide.
I have learned from everyone who replied. I have received several PMs giving me additional technical thoughts. Thanks to you and all others. I really like this Forum. :-D :cheers:
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2EHN (2-ethylhexyl nitrate ) is used in about 10% concentration in diesels.
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I wonder if 2EHN would be a good additive for gasoline racing engines? It does oxygenate to an extent.
For street, dragracing, and sledpulling we use maybe 1-2% to keep the injectors and pump clean, the same levels as I run in the tow vehicles. For LSR, none.
Someday I need to get around to dyno testing various concentrations and fuel blends. Mfr claims huge gains with additives, but I never trust mfr claims. I already figured out nitromethane doesn't mix well with diesel. Pity...
McRat - -
I want to say that I have been impressed with the extent of your replies related to my oxygen question. Your knowledge of diesel and other related fuels gave me an education of the complexity of my question of looking for more power with just simple oxygen. It is clear to me why you hold several records in the diesel class. I don't ever think I'd be able to run in a diesel class because you have shown me there is too much for me to learn to be competitive. However, I must say I am totally impressed with those diesel transAm cars I see racing on Speed TV.
I'll probably stick with the gas route and perhaps go with a turbo if I feel frisky. I am more of a mechanical guy then a chemist. However, plan B could always take your suggestion of nitrous oxide.
I have learned from everyone who replied. I have received several PMs giving me additional technical thoughts. Thanks to you and all others. I really like this Forum. :-D :cheers:
You're welcome. :cheers:
However, I'm just a newbie at LSR, and I'm still learning. This site is a great resource to learn at, there are some really smart guys here. We still haven't gotten our truck to run correctly, so I'm certainly no genius. I started "bombing" (a slang for hotrodding a diesel, and somehow quite ironic) diesels in 2004, so I'm even a bit new to that world as well. I'm a serious diesel advocate and enthusiast, but have way more questions than answers.
Diesels are not harder to hotrod than gassers, but race parts are far more rare, and way more expensive. For us, A set of better rods is about $3000, one piston is about $400 (stock), headgaskets are $200 a pair (stock), one stock injector is $400. There is no throttle or air-fuel ratio or pre-ignition to worry about, so tuning is just injection timing, pressure, and amount. You can build a mechanical diesel with NO electrical system at all. If you push started it, you wouldn't even need a battery. But ours is a modern computerized diesel with more wires and computers than a typical late model gas engine, which is the hardest part to deal with.
The good news is that most diesel engines can be turned up to at least twice the factory rating with stock parts (when racing). So if your HP needs are modest, it's just a matter of tuning.
The diesel hotrod community is interesting. You have farmers, truckers, and guys with engineering degrees, all competing at the same events. Never take the farmers or truckers lightly, currently they are the dominant force. Being book smart isn't as important as experience. Don't make the mistake of thinking a bombed farm tractor is not just as sophisticated as any other race engine, or less expensive. Some of these guys make their own engine blocks, pistons, and heads, and the level of secrecy is at least as high as other racing if not higher.
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If the USA would embrace modern diesel technology instead of trying to stop it, we could rid ourselves of dependence on middle-eastern oil. A diesel-electric hybrid the size and performance of a Prius would get at least 20% better mileage, and require 24% fewer barrels of oil to be refined. Making diesel SUV's and half ton pickups would save even more. You won't lose performance or drivability, you'll just use less fuel with today's existing technology. No additional infrastructure is needed, no technological hurdles to be overcome, and no trade-offs from a driver's perspective.
GM developed a "plug-n-play" 300HP 4.5L diesel small form factor V8 that will bolt in anywhere a V8 gas engine normally goes. It's finished and they are sitting in warehouses. Some junkyards have the test engines for sale. Due to it's higher initial cost, tighter government restrictions, and GM's financial woes, they abandoned the 2010 release. I'd be driving one right now if they would have shipped them. If our government is in control of GM, how come they did not want to save fuel?
It's not a replacement for rechargeable electrics, or hydrogen fuel cells, but it's cheaper, with less trade-offs, and will actually work with the vehicles that the average American likes to drive. And it can be done NOW. This year, not 20 years in the future. And in 20 years diesels will be even better. Ethanol is a poor excuse for a motor fuel, hydrogen comes from fossil fuels, as is much of our electricity, but diesel made from plants has a wildly higher yield per acre than any other fuel and no significant performance hit. And diesel can be made from natural gas, a fossil fuel we have a surplus of.
How hard would it be for the government to get diesels on the road for the average American? One change in the accounting register. Move the diesel fuel tax over to the gas tax. Since gasoline is used in far higher amounts, the initial change would be about 2 cents in gas prices. But suddenly the diesel option is now far more attractive, with a cost per mile of 2/3'rds that of gasoline at first. As more diesels come online, that number gets better and better, without a sudden crush targeting the common automobile driver. They will be gently moved over to diesel in the name of fuel economy without giving up any performance or making them drive some little POS they don't want to buy.
Now I will admit to being frustrated with LSR diesel rules, as they forbid bio-diesel or diesel derived from natural gas, but that another informercial for a later date.
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McRat:
I agree with pretty much all you said and with the direction you're headed. As you found out at ElMirage though, when the weather gets cold diesel loses some of its appeal. Today we're headed well below 0 degrees F. up here and you either leave diesel running or draw lots of electricity to keep it warm enough so it will start when the situation arises. There are still some challenges to overcome.
Pete
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McRat:
I agree with pretty much all you said and with the direction you're headed. As you found out at ElMirage though, when the weather gets cold diesel loses some of its appeal. Today we're headed well below 0 degrees F. up here and you either leave diesel running or draw lots of electricity to keep it warm enough so it will start when the situation arises. There are still some challenges to overcome.
Pete
Yeah, gelling is a beach, and a valid concern. :|
Even a block heater (most diesels come with these, and they plug into 110v), you can gell the fuel in the filter and lines. Winter diesel is cut with kerosene, and some guys will blend in up to 10% gasoline (I don't recommend that). Using the max amount of diesel fuel treatment will help. It's not a huge problem, but always strikes when you are late for work as my Canadian and Alaskan friends have told me. Seems the fuel has intelligent bacteria in it that can sense not only the time of day, but how important your trip is. On common rail diesels, it's a little better because of the high fuel return rates that help heat the tank, and modern plastic tanks insulate the fuel better.
Our problem was removal of the glowplug circuit, low-compression racing pistons, and pure water coolant, not necessarily gelling. Even if I was a gasser, there was a potential of freezing the coolant.
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So if bio-diesel isn't allowed in diesel classes, is it allowed in Omega as a turbine fuel? The whole point of my builds are that we have the technology today to blend clean energy and performance. I'll have to get McRat to verify this, but i vaugely remember some diesel conversion kits that allow many production diesels to run on cooking oil and can be self-installed with basic tools in a weekend.
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Chad,
In the Omega classes the use of fuel is your choice.
DW
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There was indeed a catastrophic incident at Bonneville in the 1960s..... It involved the use of oxygen injection..... as I had been told, anyway... a racing legend, Bob Herda, lost his life....
And yes, how about those turbonique units?.... as fas as I also recall, Turbonique also marketed a little turbine engine that also ran a centrifugal supercharger. It looked like a turbo charger.... more or less, anyway.... and could produce some impressive horsepower numbers.... it was these items that prompted NHRA and other sanctioning organizations to specify that the supercharger must be mechanically or exhaust driven.
GM diesels huh?.... the earlier reference sounds like something that I would have bought at least two of!!!!
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???
No oxygen injection mentioned here (I wish that it was dated):
http://www.nom.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93 (http://www.nom.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=93)
BTW, there's an incredible amount of info oh Bob Herda on the net.
Mike
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Read a few of the Navarro stories, the visual of him vaporizing a Stromberg and metal spraying the inside of his flatty always makes me chuckle!