Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: Bawls on December 01, 2009, 02:36:54 AM
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http://www.mojavemile.com/
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I pasted the "news release" onto the home page of this site, and we'll have a link to their site installed in the "LSR Events" box (upper left side of the home page) any day.
Best wishes to this event and the sanctioning body, organisers, and most of all -- the participants.
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If you need a starting crew its a no go. That rules out a lot.
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Not only no push starts, but you have to drive back to the pits.
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You have to have at least 20* steering each way and brakes on both wheels. That will rule out quite a few people as well. It sounded good anyway. :-(
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Lets not forget CE armour for anyone going over 190 mph.
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For cars you need to have 4 wheel brakes and suspension on all 4 wheels, no push starts, no external starters. :? My Roadsters are out. Sounds like they don't want spectators, so I am out. Does not sound like the type of event that I would enjoy, but I wish them luck.
Tom G.
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I was thinking its a place where my sidecar won't come home full of dirt or salt. Oh well, Suckin' dust is not that bad.
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Well, I will be in Daytona so Bob will need another rider, but they are specific about two wheeled motorcycles, are sidecars out? Actually we are out because we need a remote starter and support rig to start. Sounds like a cool event and should get a good turn out of vehicles.
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all of the scta cars dont have a big enough roll cage ---requires 1 3/4 dia.----all bikes require front and rear brakes and suspension ---no sidecars ----------------isiah stites may be the only one there ---that is if he has the right tires ----if anyone plans on going i would read the rules a couple of times willie buchta
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No sidecars? What is it? A dark side meet?
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isiah stites may be the only one there ---that is if he has the right tires ----if anyone plans on going i would read the rules a couple of times willie buchta
Not looking likely Willie.............I do not have CE armour in my leathers and I am not sure if I want to pay for them to be changed.
It does sound like an awesome event that is being put on and I hope that they do well.
Scott
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I think i'll save my money and go to goliad next year lol. It will probably take them a couple of years to get everything sorted out and running smoothly.
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Not sure if I will run this event with the truck (might do it in a car), but:
From reading the rules, I think this event is mostly likely intended for late model cars and bikes. If you believe you must have a rollcage to go 190 mph in a stock 2010 Corvette on flat asphalt with no trees or other cars, then it's not for you. That's OK. It doesn't make it evil, nor an event for daredevils only.
1 5/8" tube is permitted if it's NHRA cage spec (NHRA requires 1.75 for rollbar). And they state if you believe your rollover system is adequate, they will evaluate on a case-by-case basis.
No, it's not a replacement for SCTA events. Nor are SCTA events targeted for late model street cars.
Totally different animal. Short course, asphalt, aimed at street cars/bikes.
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isiah stites may be the only one there ---that is if he has the right tires ----if anyone plans on going i would read the rules a couple of times willie buchta
Not looking likely Willie.............I do not have CE armour in my leathers and I am not sure if I want to pay for them to be changed.
It does sound like an awesome event that is being put on and I hope that they do well.
Scott
It looks like they will accept some "off the rack" racing leathers with stretch panels. You can find deals on good one piece suits with all the armour, if you shop around.
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Just a hypothetical question as we won't be going to the MMile anyway:
Our leathers have built-in body armor - but I don't know if it's CE-rated or not. I wonder if we showed up at inspection with our leathers -- would they look for the CE rating - or would they simply note "Yeah, he's got body armor" and let us pass?
Just wondering.
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Totally different animal. Short course, asphalt, aimed at street cars/bikes.
I wouldn't be so quick to call it a short course. No dirt or traction issues. Look at the speeds as Maxton.
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No dirt or traction issues.
Looks like no land speed racers either.
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I doubt if it will be a big spectator draw, more like a bunch of street racers. From reading their web site the set up is for making laps and no spectator park along the course. Hope they have success with the event.
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slim that is a good question----you know i dont have a problem with any rule if its written down i will obey it ---what really pi$$es me off is when they (rules) are applied differant from one person to the next or from one group to the next------i want all of you to have a fun and safe holiday -----willie buchta
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isiah stites may be the only one there ---that is if he has the right tires ----if anyone plans on going i would read the rules a couple of times willie buchta
Not looking likely Willie.............I do not have CE armour in my leathers and I am not sure if I want to pay for them to be changed.
It does sound like an awesome event that is being put on and I hope that they do well.
Scott
It looks like they will accept some "off the rack" racing leathers with stretch panels. You can find deals on good one piece suits with all the armour, if you shop around.
Thats a good idea Randy! I wouldn't mind having a riding set of leathers.
Scott
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I doubt if it will be a big spectator draw, more like a bunch of AIRPORT racers. From reading their web site the set up is for making laps and no spectator park along the course. Hope they have success with the event.
Fixed it for you! :cheers:
Can't be street racing, that's free, and you don't keep your car when you're though. The State of California keeps it.
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I was kind of intrigued at first but quickly released that there were not many LSR Cars that would qualify because of design or operating characteristics. Too bad, always looking for other venues.
Could change topic title to "Mojave mile is out!" Best of luck to them.
Tom
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Calm down folks, don't panic, stay cool. 8-)
The Mojave Mile rules that you've been flaming commenting on, are marked "preliminary" for a reason. If you check the website, you'll see that they've been pulled for rework. I'm willing to admit that maybe the book was a bit too "preliminary" to have been released.
Oh - forgot to introduce myself, my name is Keith, and I'm the "K" in MKM Racing, promoters of the Mojave Mile. I'm largely responsible for the rulebook.
We really do appreciate the commentary. As you know, we don't come from the LSR community. Lacking that background, maybe we missed the mark a bit on the first pass. McRat had an excellent observation, that we appeared to be catering to late model street cars and bikes. He is correct. That is a large part of our target market. However, we certainly aren't out to exclude anyone, or any group as a whole. I'm here to tell you that we're willing to be accomodating. In fact, we're possibly willing to let LSR folks run at our event in a special LSR division which would pretty much use SCTA rules. Would that appeal to you? There are some issues that would have to be worked out. And there are some areas that probably won't be changeable. But I bet we can arrive at an acceptable compromise.
Let me lay out some of our issues for you. The main one is that the layout of this airport isn't a convenient triangle like Maxton, and "our" runway isn't an unused part of it. We don't have the luxury of being able to do whatever we want, off on our side of the field. Both the race runway itself, and the return taxiway, cross other open and possibly active runways. Strict traffic control will be essential, and it is probable that we will have to occasionally stop racing to let a plane land on a cross runway. Worse, the runway that we are racing on is still theoretically available for an emergency landing at any time. We are required to be able to quickly and completely clear the runway with almost no notice. That's why there can't be a bunch of racers lined up on the runway itself. Maybe one or two, that's all. The staging lanes will either be on the taxiway or clear back in the pit area, probably a combination of both. A lot of the issues that you've been complaining about stem from this one major item. It also has a lot to do with why we aren't yet able to cater to spectators. There's just not really any good place to put them.
Now for some specific items: There was comment about push starts not being allowed. I want to be clear here, this is a standing start event. No one is going to get to do a rolling start with a push truck. Having said that, the only problem we have with a simple push start just to get the engine running, is having a good place to do it that won't clog things up. It can't happen on the runway itself. Even if the vehicle just needs a remote starter and not a push, any vehicle that can't restart itself could become a liability if the above-mentioned air emergency happens. We're still not entirely decided as to exactly how the pre-staging lanes are going to work. It's possible that start crews and simple push-starts can somehow be accomodated in future events. But I'll be honest with you, it's probably not going to happen at the first one.
As for bikes and leathers and such - that section of the rules has already been reworked due to popular demand. You won't have to have the CE armor, or any armor. You won't have to have a one piece suit either. A normal two piece zip-together racing suit will be OK. Some of the other esoteric bike stuff has been changed too, like needing only a 15 degree deflection rather than 20.
As for having to drive the vehicle back to the pits - that's been changed too. You can use a tow-back if you wish. It's a bit of a pain because the tow truck will have to go "backwards" up the same taxiway to get to the far end. But enough people asked for it, and we're at least willing to try it.
Now, back to accomodation for LSR racers. We still think that this isn't the right place for some vehicle types such as full streamliners. We're a little skeptical about sidecars too. And we're not sure we want anyone using "fuel". These issues can be discussed in the future. But here's what I've been thinking. We (MKM) would provide two special LSR racing divisions, one each for cars and bikes. Any LSR vehicle that already has a current SCTA logbook and chassis sticker would be eligible to enter, possibly with the requirement for having recently passed an SCTA/BNI/USFRA tech inspection. Might possibly accomodate ECTA too. The key is that, within those divisions, SCTA car prep and safety equipment rules will apply, not the MKM rules in the rest of the rule book. Sound like a possibility? Is this workable?
I have only two areas where the SCTA rules give me pause. One is tire speed limits. We would like to use our list of limits rather than the SCTA list. They're mostly not that dissimilar, but it would mean that (as an example) V rated car tires would be limited to 155. The other area is brakes and stopping. Because of the start line and timing locations we have to use, we have about 4000 feet of stopping distance, with about 600 feet of dirt after that. Cars with the usual (poor) LSR brakes can use chutes. But is a fast LSR bike with no front brake going to eat dirt before it gets stopped? You would know better than we would. But right as of now I'm leaning toward requiring front and rear brakes on all vehicles.
I should point out that we have not formally approached the SCTA about this plan yet. We hope that they will be willing to go along.
Your comments on any of this are most welcome. You can reply here or reach me at KeithU@mojavemile.com. Thanks for your time.
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I think that most LSR vehicles can start their engine in line, but like us our gearing is so high that we would need a slight push to get us going. I have never started a run without a push, so the car may pull through the gear with our HP.
Keith thanks for your post. :cheers:
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Both the race runway itself, and the return taxiway, cross other open and possibly active runways ... probable that we will have to occasionally stop racing to let a plane land on a cross runway. Worse, the runway that we are racing on is still theoretically available for an emergency landing at any time.
I want to be clear here, this is a standing start event. No one is going to get to do a rolling start with a push truck.
Any LSR vehicle that already has a current SCTA logbook and chassis sticker would be eligible to enter, possibly with the requirement for having recently passed an SCTA/BNI/USFRA tech inspection. Might possibly accomodate ECTA too.
Keith,
A few quick points that immediately come to mind after reading your update;
1) The FAA has jurisdiction over all airports and as a policy, generally does not allow this type of activity on active runways. They have in the past over ruled the local airports that have given permission.
2) Push starts, usually are due to gearing, not to start the car. Also, they commence the push from the starting line, so it is not a running start. If you mean the vehicle has to use it's on-board motor to launch like at a drag strip, then lots of folks are out.
3) The ECTA uses SCTA rules, so there is little or no difference between the two sanctioning bodies.
Same goes for the LTA.
Good luck with your event.
:-D
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keith--el mirage is 1 1/3 with a 3696 foot shutdown area and all of it is dirt --there are car records there at over 300 mph and lots of bike records there over 200 one thing we all know how to do is stop --motorcycles there arnt required to run a front brake although many do --my wife and i both race sidecar bikes and would like to come to your event thanks willie buchta
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Mojave is actually a pretty cool venue. I was just there last month with the World Class Driving Extreme Event. Got to drive Ferraris, Lamborghinis, a Ford GT and others. I also went 212 (speedo indicated only, no idea if it was right, but was still fast and fun) in a McClaren SLR. Will you have timing lights to measure speeds? That may be an issue with the airport, but maybe not. The other thing that's really cool about Mojave is that you don't know what you are going to get to see. The Proteous (Burt Ruttan) taxied and took off right in front of us. Plus there were several remoted piloted jets that came through (mostly F16's). Fun place to be. It is an active runway and airport security are all over and giving clearance etc. Going west there is more of a hump in the runway that obsures the breaking cones for quite a distance. Great place though, had a ball. By the way, stay out of the middle of the runway, it's a lot rougher from the landing impacts of big planes.
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You can reply here or reach me at KeithU@mojavemile.com. Thanks for your time.
I tried to send my comments to above email address, but got the error message below;
The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<KeithU@mojavemile.com>
(reason: No Such User Here)
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The contact E-Mail address does not work for me...................Also????????
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...
I have only two areas where the SCTA rules give me pause. One is tire speed limits. We would like to use our list of limits rather than the SCTA list. They're mostly not that dissimilar, but it would mean that (as an example) V rated car tires would be limited to 155. The other area is brakes and stopping. Because of the start line and timing locations we have to use, we have about 4000 feet of stopping distance, with about 600 feet of dirt after that. Cars with the usual (poor) LSR brakes can use chutes. But is a fast LSR bike with no front brake going to eat dirt before it gets stopped? You would know better than we would. But right as of now I'm leaning toward requiring front and rear brakes on all vehicles. ...
Here's what I learned about tires:
I sent in two popular makes of performance tires for dynamic testing (>$800). One was a V rated Toyo (32" dia), and the other a W rated Kumho (25").
I had run both to a top GPS speed of 181, and many passes at 160+ in a 6,200lb truck (at the time) before the testing.
The lab could only run them to 215mph even though they told me they could run 225mph. They were told to accelerate them to max speed, hold for 5 miles, coast, then let cool for an hour, then run 3 times. What they did instead was run them up to 38? miles, and didn't cool them down. Load was 2200lb.
What I saw on the video was that as the tire heated up at max speed, first one flat area formed. Then another, then another. When the flats came around to the start point, the tires failed. They looked like hexagons.
The lowly V-rated tire endured 6 passes, then at 215mph and 2200lb, at 38? miles, it "chunked". A piece of tread flew off, but the tire remained pressurized.
The Y rated tire only survived 3 passes, and at 11 miles it grenaded. The carcass looks like an big orange peel.
So while I do trust the V-rated brand at 215mph on the long course, the W rated is questionable for a heavy truck.
What did I learn?
Don't trust a testing lab to do the right test. You should be present.
A large dia tire will take more speed.
As the heat builds up, the tire deforms more and more until it fails. Neither tire failed in a relatively short distance.
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Thanks for all your comments and suggestions so far. I'm already learning a lot.
I'm curious: do you usually run shorter gears at El Mirage? I thought maybe you would, what with the shorter course and all.
My apologies, I got the email address slightly wrong. Leave out the "U". It's Keith@mojavemile.com.
I'm leaving town for the holidays today, but I'll be checking in periodically.
Hope all of you have a happy holiday season.
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Last night I found some notes on the back of an envelope in the garage from a conversation with Marvin Rifchen some years back about turning new tires on a spindle under infra-red light to "cure" them by running through a few heat cycles. It makes them "more round" when they grow as they heat, per one note. Anyway, it was Marvin's suggestion for lessening the likelihood for chunking.
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"Skeptical about sidecars"? Merry Christmas anyway.
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yea me too ---merry christmas bill--i dont think sheri or i will go to race anyway but we will go and take all of the pics that we can for land racing and the gear grinders web site---willie buchta
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Maybe its just me but when I was reading their website I kept getting images of "Cannonbal Run" in my head.
Merry Christmas Willie and Sheri. See you at the banquet.
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According to Mapquest this looks like a near 40 hour drive and over 2500 miles each way. :-o
But thats never stopped me before. :-D
A couple of things I wanted to address/ask:
1) As far as "fuel" is concerned, can you be a little clearer on what that actually means? It was stated that they don't want any "fuel" to be used....what does that constitue and what does it not? I run nitrous oxide and have gone over 200 at Bonneville, TX Mile, Maxton Mile and Loring....to run nitrous oxide I am required to run in the corresponding "fuel" class and not "gas". If this means nitrous oxide equipped vehicles are not permitted to run, may I ask why? Its a power adder, just like a turbocharger or supercharger. I get enough "street racers" begging for me to "take the bottle off"...I feel that at a sanctioned event I shouldn't have to handicap myself yet again.
2) As for slowing down, motorcycles can decelerate quite rapidly, even with no brakes being applied. Remember, we are inherently "dirtier" in terms of aerodyamics than our 4 wheeled counterparts. We also have significantly less inertia at 200 mph given we are usually 4 to 7 times lighter. Here is a demonstration of 202 mph with brakes attached to the vehicle (as required for bikes going over 175 mph or in a class in which the record is over 175) but NO brakes were used:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atd9DGaQTDQ
A.
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what a p o s track shiphteey if you are going to drive that far come on out to el mirage in may--- 2 day event ---- its about the same distance and its nice smooth dirt willie buchta
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Willie,
That track is much better than the video posted as it is an older video, I went over 200 on my first pass several years ago and also ran again two years ago and it is much better now. Besides for your bikes it is fine, the #1 bike sidecar was also built by Bob Moreland.
Congrats to MR.Schaeffer for not only winning the bike points championship several times, he also gained entry in to the Maxton 200mph club as well this season :cheers:
J
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Is it just me or isn't this the same group that runs the Silver State Challenge?
www.silverstateclassic.com
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Pretty sure you are right. They have other open road races as well, and get good reviews.
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Is it just me or isn't this the same group that runs the Silver State Challenge?
No. We are not those people.
I can see where there might be confusion. We put on all the "other" Nevada Open Road racing events, such as the Pony Express, the Gambler's Run, and the Bonneville 100, the latter run out of Wendover, a town with which I know many of you are familiar.
But we do not have anything to do with the Silver State organization, except for occasionally competing in their events.
This year our only Open Road event is the Bonneville 100 on June 26. See our web site at www.openroadracing.com.
By the way - things have changed a bit (okay, a lot) with regard to running SCTA cars at the Mojave Mile. Read our new LSR supplemental rules on the web site, www.mojavemile.com. Basically we are allowing SCTA cars, bikes, and sidecars to run under their own normal tech rules. Only things we aren't allowing are full streamliners and push starts, as discussed before. Hope to see you there on March 6. Grid spots are still available.
Keith Uddenberg
MKM Racing Promotions
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Thanks for clearing that up...just had the same "look and feel" . Good luck with the West Coast Event, I'm much closer to the ECTA's Concrete Mile...
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Sorry, you will not see our sidecar running the event ......to close to the M/C Daytona Speed Week.....
maybe next time..........................
PS. Can we use a passenger in the sidecar?????
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Sorry, you will not see our sidecar running the event ......to close to the M/C Daytona Speed Week.....
maybe next time..........................
PS. Can we use a passenger in the sidecar?????
No, besides if you wont be the "passenger" then don't worry about it.. :wink:
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I attended the Sidewinders club meeting last night where Mike Borders was an invited guest. Mike gave a very good presentation of the meet and the infrastructure he has in place. Mike is an experienced and professional promoter and knows what he is doing.
There has been talk of SCTA involvement and I want to let everyone know that there is no official SCTA participation. No SCTA classes, records, timing, etc. There were some Sidewinders signing up as course stewards and other duties and that is as far as the SCTA is involved. Mike has put into place a method of allowing SCTA cars to compete, you must have a log book which has proven experience logged. Cars and bikes will not be teched for class and new cars/bikes will not have the availability to purchase log books.
Check the rule book supplement for LSR vehicles on thier website:
www.mojavemile.com