Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Grant Borman on November 02, 2009, 08:13:06 PM
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Im starting to build a 1991 Mitsubishi Eclipse Gst and have a classification question. The car comes with a mitsubishi 14b turbo and i would like to run a larger non mitsubishi turbo such as a garret gt35/40. In my opinion this would be considered a non stock supercharger but it in the Production Supercharged class it seems a little vague "if the vehicle was originally equipped with one turbocharger, one turbocharger shall be used". Kind of makes it seem like the only way i could give the g/bgc record a run for its money is if I ran a supercharger or installed another turbo since it comes stock with 1 turbo.
Thanks,
Grant
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Grant, all the rule is saying is if the car had a supercharger you can't use a turbo & vice versa.
Use any turbo you want if it came with same.
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Thanks for the quick reply Dynoroom
So you think i should be ok to run in g/bgc as long as i don't run the stock 14b turbo?
After re reading the book i think what you mentioned was probably their intent.
So i can run any turbo in G/PS?
Any turbo except the 14b in G/BGC?
Only reason i ask is because the G/BGC seems really soft compared to the G/PS record which seems like fairly similar classes.
Thanks,
Grant
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IIRC:
In production supercharged, your car will have to run 1 turbo of any make and size. No exceptions. Twins, centrifugals, roots, etc, are a no-no.
In Gas Coupe, you must have either:
A non-stock supercharger (nope, you are factory supercharged)
A quick change axle (???)
An engine swap
You could run a centrifugal blower or run twins, and that MIGHT pass.
But if you do not have any of those mods, my understanding is you MUST run PS.
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In Gas Coupe, you must have either:
A non-stock supercharger (nope, you are factory supercharged)
A quick change axle (???)
An engine swap
So are you trying to say that since my car came with a turbo there is no exhaust driven single turbo that would qualify? Unless my quick change 5th gear cluster woudl count it seems like im kind of SOL without an engine swap.
Im trying to understand the intent of this rules but I have a feeling they didn't intend for a fwd turbocharged import when this class was made. :-)
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Grant,
Without any of a few major changes (not supercharged related because you are turbo already) to get in Gas Coupe you will run Production Supercharged and in PS you can run any turbo that is like the factory from huge found on mining ore carrying diesels to tiny earring size. The turbo must be a turbo of the same design but could be of a different size and from a different manufacturer.
Geo
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We run our turbo mitsubishis and DSM's in the P/S classes. We run very large garrett and holset turbos without question in these classes. You can run whatever turbo you would like in this class.
Not sure if the record was broke the past few years, but my 2006 book shows the G/BGC record at 186. That is still a bit tough to do. It is going to take you 500-550whp or so to accomplish this goal in a dsm. I know this first hand. And a hell of a cooling system. I know this first hand as well with a dsm at the salt. Seen it twice now. Nick Sutton's 1G and the retired Mile HIgh Talon 2G. That class appears you can run any turbo you want though.
Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing another mitsubishi out there.
Steven
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In Gas Coupe, you must have either:
A non-stock supercharger (nope, you are factory supercharged)
A quick change axle (???)
An engine swap
So are you trying to say that since my car came with a turbo there is no exhaust driven single turbo that would qualify? Unless my quick change 5th gear cluster woudl count it seems like im kind of SOL without an engine swap.
Im trying to understand the intent of this rules but I have a feeling they didn't intend for a fwd turbocharged import when this class was made. :-)
Intent of the rule: to allow something like a Camaro to run a Big Block Chevy or a Hemi. This is an engine swap obivously.
The other intent is to let a Camaro run a forced induction Small Block Chevy. So this is the stock type engine but with non-stock forced induction. Notice I said forced induction. Don't get wrapped up in the words too much. Just because it says "non-stock supercharger" doesn't solely mean superchargers. It means non-stock forced induction ie turbo, roots blower, centrifugal blower, etc. Turbo motors are considered "supercharged".
The last intent is the quick change rear end. This would be a Camaro with a Halibrand, Winters, Franklin, etc., quick change type rear differential.
If you have a FWD import here is what you need to run in Gas Coupe: 1) take something that was non-forced induction and force induce it ie non-turbo motor that is now turbocharged. 2) do an engine swap ie a B16 Honda into a VW Rabbit. 3) I don't think a quick change rear end applies to a FWD car.
If you car came with a turbo and you don't change the body at all then you run in Production Supercharged. If you do something to your car to make it illegal for the production classes like an engine swap or aerodynamic mods then you either run GC, ALT or CC.
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If his heart is set on BGC, then I wonder how they would rule a centrifugal blower mounted on it, or twins? This would not be "factory supercharging" by PS definition, so would that make it "non-factory supercharging"?
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If his heart is set on BGC, then I wonder how they would rule a centrifugal blower mounted on it, or twins? This would not be "factory supercharging" by PS definition, so would that make it "non-factory supercharging"?
Well it appears im not simply reading over something. I will be sending somone from the SCTA an email asking if i can run a supercharger along with a turbo to qualify for this class.
Funny thing is the 186mph record is held by "Option-Saikosoku-180sx" which is a factory turbocharged 1.8l hmmmm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_180SX
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If you go to www.scta-bni.org there is a form there for rule clarification.
It is possible that if that 180sx ran BGC, that it was either a N/A model that was supercharged or swapped. Guess it could have a quick-change, but looks like it's gears are fine past 200 if my math is right.
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Im trying to understand the intent of this rules but I have a feeling they didn't intend for a fwd turbocharged import when this class was made. :-)
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Sorry, there was no such thing as a turbocharged FWD import when that class was made! :roll:
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I got this from the SCTA.
If I understand you correctly, the car came from the factory with a turbo.
The Gas Coupe and Sedan class is for vehicles that did not come with turbos
from the factory. Turbo cars run in 5.E.2 page 56 Production Supercharged.
Mike Manghelli
Kinda wanted to start with something more achievable then move up to G/BFA but i guess i will start there.
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Not that I know a darn thing, but can't you configure/claim the car as an Eclipse GS DOHC NA and then turbocharge it to get into BGC?
Isn't that how the game is played? :)
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stuck in GC then because I am not sure you could then claim that it came from the factory with the turbo to run PS.
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Put a Busa engine in it. :-D
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I could but im a horrible lier. I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.
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Put a Busa engine in it. :-D
Lol that seems to be the rage now a days. I think i'd rather destroke a honda motor if i went that far.
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Put a Busa engine in it. :-D
Put a Duramax diesel in it. (http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee171/4-BarrelMike/Miscellaneous%20stuff/rotfl.gif)
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:-D
While it would be a fun project, there are no suitable classes for diesel-powered cars other than streamliners. They cannot make HP that is competitive in supercharged classes. It's an RPM thingy. While a diesel can be made to outperform a similiar sized blown gas engine at 3000rpm, the gas engines win by default due to RPM. Diesel fuel burns too slowly to make max power at high RPM.
All modern diesels are blown, and the ones that aren't, are not capable of making significant HP/ci. To the best of my knowledge, no diesel-powered vehicle is competitive in LSR against a similiar gasoline vehicle, unless you count fuel mileage, or the ability run 75psi boost using $3/gallon fuel. Yes, Team Audi has done miracles with their roadrace program, but that is neither pump diesel, nor is it a production-based engine.
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I thought the reason diesel is not a good race fuel is because it has such a low octane raiting which runs better as a compression ignition motor? Since it is a CI motor the reciprocating weight keeps the rpm's down which in turn caps the HP. Nothing to say about the injectors!
How much HP are the AA class vehicles making? How large of a diesel motor do you need to make that kind of power? :evil:
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I could but im a horrible lier. I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.
I believe same motor:
Same manufacturer
Same cylinder layout
Same induction
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Diesel fuel is rated in Cetane as opposed to Octane, and it can be thought of as how fast the fuel can burn. Diesel fuel is injected during the compression cycle of the engine once the air gets hot enough from the compression. "Compression Ignition" is not an accurate description, since it does not ignite based on compression. Hot air ignition would be a more descriptive term. There is no throttle on a diesel since that would restrict the amount of air in the cylinder and it would not get hot enough to light the fuel. Unlike a normal gas engine, diesel fuel is injected over a span time at just the right time. Our "timing" is similiar to gas ignition, but it's the injection start time instead, and we have "duration" and "pressure" involved. One strange quirk is that you advance your timing as boost goes up with a turbo diesel, instead of retarding it.
The problem occurs because liquids do not burn, only gases do, and diesel fuel evaporates much slower than gasoline. The energy that is required to vaporize the diesel fuel cools down the air, so if you spray it in too quickly or early, it will not light immediately (pinging) or at all (bursting). At high RPM's you cannot spray the fuel in early enough without putting out the fire. High cetane fuels can help move that point up, but 8000 rpm peak power is just a dream with liquid fuel direct injection. The $$$ Audi only spins to 6000rpm IIRC, where it's gasoline competitors are over 10,000rpm.
There is a AA/DT Ford full-sized diesel pickup that ran a ~1200ci Detroit super&turbocharged marine engine. It ran ~202 at Bonneville, and 160 at Elmo. I would say it was about 1200hp?
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PS - Be careful of saying Diesel around me. I will yap-yap-yap till someone tells me to shut up. :-D
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I could but im a horrible lier. I might ask if the other version of my motor that has a 6mm higher deck height and larger siamised bore would count as an engine swap. Its like the 400 sbc is to the 350 sbc.
I believe same motor:
Same manufacturer
Same cylinder layout
Same induction
Yea this is tricky, i will definitely have to sent them another message in the next few days. The motor im thinking about is N/A, and i can get it from a Hyundai.
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I got this from the SCTA.
If I understand you correctly, the car came from the factory with a turbo.
The Gas Coupe and Sedan class is for vehicles that did not come with turbos
from the factory. Turbo cars run in 5.E.2 page 56 Production Supercharged.
Mike Manghelli
Kinda wanted to start with something more achievable then move up to G/BFA but i guess i will start there.
This is exactly how it was explained to me when I was trying to find a "home" class for my blown Taurus SHO for the ECTA. Other than Forced Induction, it would be production. You have to think of it this way, "what prevents a vehicle from being in the lower class?" However, I do believe if you look hard enough you may find a couple of records in BGC with vehicles that came FI from the factory.....
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But the problem lies in the Golden Rule of Racing: Just because someone else got away with it, doesn't mean you will too. I think it's worded differently in the SCTA rulebook, but the meaning is the same.
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Contributing to thread drift...Seems the B/GS and B/DS records are near the same.
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DS rules allow supercharging, and there are no fuel restrictions. So it's like BFS. You can run nitrous, propane, CNG, race diesel, 2CHN, etc. DT and MDT limit you to pump diesel.