Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: CGoodson on September 27, 2009, 07:51:52 PM
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What if you don't have room in the cockpit for a HANS device because you lay down in the car?
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Try one of the devices from Safety Solutions, like the hybrid pro !!
Charles
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Are those devices like a hutchins devices? When you lay in the cockpit your head needs to look forward out the canopy. Lot of the devices hold your head straight up.
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CGoodson, some things you might think about.
Have you REALLY checked HANS to see if they can't accomodate an extreme lay-down vehicle.
Look at Scott Sharp's crash in the Patron American LeMans car last week . Total destruction! He walked away and ran the race with a backup. He wore a HANS device.
All Formula One drivers wear HANS devices.
The late Ed Rannberg who drove several lay-down vehicles during his fifty year career, including the electric streamliner that holds the FIA and BNI Class Two records, told me on many occasions a driver/rider MUST be able to have his face forward to adequately control the vehicle. (MAYBE you're gonna use a periscope, then you're on yer own).
Build something to drive/ride around and practice control,
then draw your own conclusions.
Well intentioned comments. Good luck.
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I know that the HANS device is great for the safety of the driver. The HANS device saves lives! I am a advocate for safety. I have been taught my whole life from my father safety first over anything else in racing. I was just wonder what other people are going to used for a lay down style cockpits?
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isnt it Ed's son Randy Rannberg that holds the records?
kent
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Randy Holds the BNI record, Eric Leuben, the Lightning Rod engineer, hoilds the FIA.
Both set after Ed passed.
Ed, of course first drove the car and was the second electic driver over 200. His career in lay down vehicles goes all the way back to the McCullogh 100 ci drone aircraft engined "NO CAM SPECIAL" of 1959. He laid dead flat on his back -but with his head upright. Then there was the Triumph twin front wheel drive dragster that wouldn't EVER go straight that vibrated so badly your nose tickled.
Randy occaisionally posts on Landracing and I'm sure is following 1212's electric bike adventures. (He rode the last electic drag bike his dad built).
He's probably going to put an IC engine in Lightning Rod in time.
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I was by Summners place last week and he showed me the Saftey Solutions hybrid pro---It has nothing that sticks up behind the helment, that I was concerned about ---it ALSO already has the 38.1 SFI cert---not just tested to---Summ looked at most and chose this for his lay down Lakester---I feel it will work for me and is available in big boy sizes, theirs straps OVER the fire suit, very important with a 20 fire suit. AS SOON as the new spec helments are available I will be ordering the pair.
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I've used a Hutchins setup at other venues and am considering one of the DJ safety head / neck retraint systems for B-Ville.
Hope that helps.
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Does anyone know who the person was that proposed this rule and if any lobbying went on by the manufactures?
Also how many vehicles will be required to purchase them [ how many cars are out there]?= LOTS of bucks!!
And don't get me wrong here because I'm all for motorcycles but if SCTA is doing it for safety reasons how can they allow motorcycles to run?
Like I said in my rule change request, SCTA can highly recommend Hans type devices but don't make it mandatory as in certain types of vehicles it may trap the driver resulting in DEATH FROM FIRE.
If you want one buy one but don't make it mandatory.
JL222
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Last weeks NHRA National Dragster paper had a very interesting article regarding the neck restraints. I would hope everyone get a copy and read it.
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I feel very comfortable with my HANS device, but I'm not sure I have it adjusted correctly. HOPEFULLY I don't have to look very far left or right, so I run it with the tethers fairly tight. I stopped by the HANS trailer this year, and between my cruddy French, and his better English, I got the impression this was OK. Anybody have any thoughts on this?
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I just wanted to say thanks to everyone. The feedback I have received has been great and I think now I have a good idea of what we can do.
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I use the Hybrid Pro from Safety Solutions.
The tighter the teathers the better. !!!!
I prefer the teathers tight but I have the kind that even when tight they allow some movement. They are the "sliding teather" model and allow some left to right movement. I also have the quick detach style with pull disconnectors.
Good luck with whatever style you choose.
Charles
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Mike C. and myself have used the Isaac link system since 05 and have been happy with it.
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When you tell us about how much you like or dislike your HANS, please include all the information. We need to know what type car, what type seat and lay back angle. Racecars with a Streamliner type lay down seat and racecars with a NASCAR type seat are far apart in what will work best.
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Read post #10 regarding the article in National Dragster. May answer some questions. I found it interesting.
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Glen, cant find it on line yet!!!!!!1
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Sparky, you need to buy the ND paper, It's inside the back cover. I don't think they print it on line, I couldn't find it either.
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The french dude came by our pit at SW and spent a lot of time fitting Celia. An observation I noticed was for a Hans to fit her correctly it had to be the 30 degree (which is the most lay back angle he had) because of her chest, and our seat has little lay back at all. I'm a big guy with a large chest and I would need the same. I don't see how a Hans would work for women or most men in an extreme lay down position in many LSR cars.
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I tried to scan the short article but it was to dark to read. If you want some information e-mail Dr. Jeremy Torstveit
drtorstveit@cox.net
Or call his office 602-254-2625 in Phoenix Az.
He will reply. I have talked to him in the past and will go out of his way to help.
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I been doing some research and I think the Hutchins head and neck device would work the best. Hans is a great device for safety but has limitations for adjustments in a lay down type of cockpit. I think the Hutchins can be adjusted to accommodate the lay down style cockpit. I am going to call Hutchins and find out more information.
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CGoodson,
You may want to call the Mfg. Safety Solutions in Mooresville, NC
800-731-4404 Aaron Zentgraf (he was at SW 2009)
Charles
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Thanks for the number Cajun Kid, I will call safety solutions.
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It's looking more and more like I'm going to have to sell one of my kidneys to afford this sport.
:cheers:
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Been doing some more research and HANS devices are not to expensive and HUTCHENS devices are more reasonable, but I think there is no price on being safe. Who wants to die in a race car. I want to be able to talk about my racing when I'm old, not have other people talk about what happened when I crashed and burn. Safety first!
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When you get 80 to 90 and under OHHHbama dying in a race car or on my Harley don't sound too bad............JD
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i want to die in my sleep like my grandpa did----not screaming and preying like everyone else in the car willie buchta
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Thank god racing has nothing to do with politics! I just trying to be safe so we can tell our grand kids what we have done. :cheers:
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Thank god racing has nothing to do with politics! I just trying to be safe so we can tell our grand kids what we have done. :cheers:
You have grand kids? :?
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I was Just making a point. I have a niece and nephew thou. :mrgreen:
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First, use whatever HNR that is comfortable to you. I don't want anyone to think I am knocking any other device. There are some pretty good devices on the market. The Hybrid is pretty good. I just want to dispell some mis-information. If you have questions or need help, please feel free to contact me at hbennett@hansdevice.com.
1. Safety Solutions and Hutchins is basically the same company.
2. Yes, the HANS Device has a high collar, the Hybrid has a short collar. One of the reasons for the high collar is for every action, there is an opposite reaction. In a crash, as the head is rebounding back, you do not want the device forced up between your helmet and your head.
3. I'm not familiar with the DJ device but if it is not SFi certified, and it's not, it will depend on your rules if you can use it or not.
4. If you are comfortable with the fitment of the HANS Device, it should be OK. There are no reasons why the HANS Device cannot fit comfortably on most of you.
5. Pricing on the HANS Device and equivalent Safety Solutions products are pretty much the same. Make sure you are not comparing the Hybrid Rage to the HANS Professional series. The Hybrid Rage would be equivalent to the HANS Sport series in price.
Howard Bennett
HANS Performance
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Howard, good info.
Just as an FYI,,, I am a big guy 6ft tall 375.... even your size XL was tight around my neck and uncomfortable.
As you pointed out.. the Hans has the high back for rebound protection and that is a good idea,, so since I did not fit in a Hans well, and the Safety Solutions was my choice, I am using and ISP containment seat with a high back head rest (for some bounce back protection)
I do like the Hans and think it is a great choice for most,,, as are many other HNR's...but if the driver is a bigger person or the cage is confining and or the Hans hands up when getting out, or you have an extreme laydown position, the Hans, may not be "as good a match " as some others. They all have there limitations,
It is personal choice combined with fit to your particular application, price should not come into it, as each major HNR mfg has multiple products and price points.
I think this is a great topic as it makes us all think about HNR's...
Charles
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Here is an excert from the article in the NHRA magazine that Glen mentioned.
http://www.safetysolutionsracing.com/tech-talk/an-update-on-racing-safety.html
One nice thing about the Safety Solutions Hybrid Pro is that it will not push you forward in the cockpit or hang up while you are trying to exit the car like some of the other devices. I tried one recently and now have one on order.
Just my two cents worth...
Dave
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We are all interested in safety. In LSR one size does not fit all. Therefor I would like to see the SCTA think about making the HANS mandatory for cars with seats that don't lay down more than 30 or 35 degrees. That would take care of the largest part of the vehicles. For seats that lay down more than that each one would have to show that it would or wouldn't work. I know that by the time Bonneville comes around there will have been much more R&D done.
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I don't think that they are mandating HANS device just some sort of head and neck restraint. There are a couple of other head and neck restraints other than the HANS device. There is HUTCHINS and Safety Solutions makes a head and neck device. Explore your options.
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Information on the SFI 38.1 systems.
The below list are the only SFI 38.1 restraints approved.
defNder Team Issue Device
HANS Performance Products - HANS Device (All Series)
Leatt Brace Moto-R Device
Safety Solutions R3 Device
Safety Solutions R3 Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid Pro Device
Safety Solutions Hutchens Hybrid/Hybrid Rage Device
Safety Solutions Hybrid X Device[/color]
ISAAC link system is not SFI 38.1 approved.
I just called SFI to check on the ISAAC. They are not approved 38.1.
Joe
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The Isaac unit is not 38.1 certified because it does not release when you release the seat belt.
It would be interesting to know why SFI requires this.
Also, I would like the SCTA to look at this as an option.
Sam
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At the SDRC banquet last Saturday I talked to Rick White about restraints. Autopwer has a new one being tested right now and Rick says it it designed for more lay back driving. Autopowers love is LSR and the Whites were liner guys so I hope something good comes of it.......JD
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That's good news. Thanks for the update JD. :cheers:
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I bought a D-cell HNR a couple of years ago that did not have a SFI spec but thought that for me it was the best one. This will be the last year I can use it. In my humble opinion it will work well in any car that you sit or lay on your back in. I believe it is the best design for exiting the car quickly that I have seen. I'm a guest at the SCTA events so if I want to run, I'll have to follow the rules even if I don't think I would be comfortable with the choices available.
AutoPower made a custom restraining belt system for my lakester that was really nice (none of the standard ready made belts that I tried would fit correctly). I will check with Rick White when/if he comes up with a certified HNR and hope that it's a system that I can feel safe using.
Maybe the answer is to build another saltflat bike. I never was able to run the 1st one I built. Yeah I like that idea.
harv