Landracing Forum
El Mirage => El Mirage General Chat => Topic started by: desotoman on May 23, 2009, 03:07:21 PM
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At the May El Mirage meet I made some observations that I would like to pass on to fellow racers. What I am about to say is for informational purposes only. I am not pointing fingers at anyone or any organization, and will not mention names etc. I just don't want anyone to have to go through this again, it has happened too many times already.
As some of you know there was one entry that made a clerical error on their entry form and it was not caught before said entry made a run. When in impound the mistake on the entry was caught. After a discussion, the person was told by an inspector, the entry was not filled out correctly the run did not count, to fill out a new entry form and attach it to existing form to correct mistakes on original form. Everything seemed to be fine.
The second pass the said entry makes, sets a record again. New record denied, no points awarded. Turns out in the El Mirage Procedure's there is a section that addresses the clerical errors that were made. The inspector was apparently not familiar with that rule.
In this case both the entrant and the inspector made an honest mistake.
I don't want to see this happen again. I suggest everyone who enters an El Mirage meet, ask for and read the El Mirage Procedure's. I would also suggest you ask the inspector to double check the body and engine code on your entry. If you don't have a rulebook handy there is always one at the registration trailer where you pay your fees. You can also view the El Mirage procedure's on the SCTA website, click on El Mirage, at the top of page it says Event procedure's, click on that and start reading. I personally take a few blank entry forms, keep them in the back of my log book and fill them out at home before the meet. That way in case I get rushed I have already filled the entry form out without any distractions.
Just some suggestions,
Tom G.
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the first year i raced at el mirage i wrote down the wrong code---john noonan was doing the inspecting and caught it---i changed before i left tech ---i set the sc-pf record at that meet ---it wont happen again--- willie buchta
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it will happen again....and again......and again.....to many ....
no one is more experienced than Costella and Yacoucci.....it happened to them...
the more manual data entry and redundancy (ie class designation and codes etc) the more the opportunity
to error........
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If you don't have a rulebook handy there is always one at the registration trailer where you pay your fees.
At the May event they ran out of log books by noon on Saturday. The problem is you cannot run without a log book. I don't know how often this has happened, I know I would be upset if I drove to the lake with a new entry for the first event of the year to be told you can't run because they ran out of log books.
Luckily, Mr. Noonan came to the rescue for the racer and passes were made.
Log books can be ordered from SCTA and mailed to you as well as purchased at the registration trailer. It may be a good idea to have a $10 insurance policy in the trailer "just in case" you loose your log book decal.
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"i set the sc-pf record at that meet ---it wont happen again"
Ah Willie -- I bet if you try hard you can set it again!
Stan
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i will try in june willie buchta there was a bike there in sheris class that looked like it would take her record--it didnt get through tech too bad i wanted to see it run---my bike had a dead cell in the battery --the motor ran good but was down on power---we get to try again in june willie buchta
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Stan, perhaps he means that the ERROR won't happen again. Hmmmm...
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not that one anyway willie buchta
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Stan, perhaps he means that the ERROR won't happen again. Hmmmm...
I would like to see the Scta change the procedures so that an error in computer codes is not so punitive.
We got along fine without them for years and I realize that they are needed for easy computer entry but I would be willing to bet nobody realized a racer would be losing his record over an error on the entry form
Here's basically what I think it should be [class and number on car match class and number on entry and take precedent over computer codes no disqualification over code error]
From what I remember most of the procedures were written by one person and OKed by the [ clubs and board?] about 1997. I know this because this person happened to be working for me at the time.
These procedures needed to be written and he stepped up and put a lot of time and effort in it and he did a fine job,and I don't remember if the codes were inplace at that time. Even so I don't think it was anyone's
intent to punish an entry so severly as to lose a record or in some cases, entry into a 2 club.
This change or something similar could be changed [ maybe not] by a motion from a club rep, club president or SCTA board member and voted on after discussion. Or sent back to clubs for discussion [I hope their discussing it now].
Maybe a small fine [$25] could be added to keep entrants attention.
JL222 :cheers:
Like I've said in other post even my computer screws up on spell check.
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Computers don't have a Key labeled COMPASSION.
It only has one labeled DELETE.
Some times there is a way around a computer problem but in this case apparently COMPUTER doesn't condone COMPASSION.
Even in college math classes, the answer doesn't have to be perfect, if the procedure is correct.
FREUD
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As a computer programmer I fail to see why codes are even necessary. If they MUST have a 3 digit code I don't see why it can't be handled in the background. :? Maybe it's time for a software upgrade?
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You have to remember there are two distinct groups in SCTA.
They have computer guys that are sharp. Not the problem.
Do you remember when your 5th grader came home and mentioned that his teacher old Mrs. Smith has managed to play MP3 files on the school computer and nothing else? That's the SCTA leadership. Old Mr. Creel and the gang are stuck in the stone age. "Why change? We've been doing it this way for 50 years and it's always worked."
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http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/RuleChgForm.html willie or sheri buchta
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Sheri, they don't seem to care that the SCTA web site is the correct way to request changes.
Landracing cannot change anything, it's a place to talk but action only comes thru the proper channels using the proper forms.
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But, we're talking about an unnecessary administrative procedure, not a rule.
Mike
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There are a whole lot of old guys doing the majority of the work -- waiting for the whiz kids to step up with their great ideas. Show the old bas*ards how efficient you can be, change the rules, do the work, become the leadership -- twitter if you must.
Stan
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Become a board member
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Twitter if you must.. :evil:
"Twitter amongst yourselves" :cheers:
Well the offending team can submit a rules change for next year, there is still time...
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You must submit the rule change before sept 1st (2009) and be a SCTA-BNI member. If the rule is changed it will go in the next years(2010) rule book . Sheri Buchta
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Facts John, just fact's :-D
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You can request changes as a SCTA member through your club also, and as stated before, a club rep -president-or board member anyone with a legal authority at a SCTA meeting can make a motion.
IT can be disscussed, rejected, voted on, or sent back to the clubs.
The board and clubs have always done the best they could as they thought at their present time and have made many improvements over the years and its not easy being a board member as they attend two meetings a month [a club rep meeting and a presidents- board meeting].
As a club rep I traveled from Santa Ynez to Anahiem on friday after work and didn't get home untill 3 or 4am.
Unforseen problems can pop up such as [this code problem] and even though Landracing.com has no authority in the outcome it serves a purpose in discussing problems.
Perhaps enough members reading about this code problem will go to their club and request a change.
After reading through the El Mirage procedures and the SCTA rule book I can't find anything about punishment for wrong code placement ,[can anybody point this out to me]?
JL222
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JL
They still want it submitted on their form. And it should be written by the originator not something on any scrap of paper or verbally. This has been a problem in the past. That's why the form was developed. All standardized for proper filing. I was on the board for several years and people wanted changes and would ask someone going to the meeting to ask about it and being 2nd or 3rd hand to whole damn thing came out different then what the originator wanted.
I don't care if the inspection forms have computer codes or not. But who ever fills it out should know what class and engine size he is running. If it's entered wrong and makes a run that's what they are stuck with for that event.Once it leaves the starting line it's an official run.
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I don't care if the inspection forms have computer codes or not. But who ever fills it out should know what class and engine size he is running. If it's entered wrong and makes a run that's what they are stuck with for that event.Once it leaves the starting line it's an official run.
I don't mean to argue :-) and I wasn't there, but it has been my understanding that they correctly had the engine type "XF" on the form, but mis-cross-referenced a 121 into a 120 from the back of the rule book.
If this is true, then the point being made is that the XF should suffice and the 121 or 120 is superfluous.
Sorry if I'm out of line. I'll shut up now.
Mike
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I don't care if the inspection forms have computer codes or not. But who ever fills it out should know what class and engine size he is running. If it's entered wrong and makes a run that's what they are stuck with for that event.Once it leaves the starting line it's an official run.
I don't mean to argue :-) and I wasn't there, but it has been my understanding that they correctly had the engine type "XF" on the form, but mis-cross-referenced a 121 into a 120 from the back of the rule book.
If this is true, then the point being made is that the XF should suffice and the 121 or 120 is superfluous.
Sorry if I'm out of line. I'll shut up now.
Mike
I don't think youre out of line or should shut up we need more to speak up :cheers:
JL222
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I'll add my attempted way of avoiding this problem - as a suggestion that might help someone.
When I get a new rulebook I go to the page with the "codes" and carefully, in the comfort and non-stressed atmosphere of the house - use a highlighter to mark the correct codes for my primary entry(s), and maybe secondary or class changes in a different color. When I'm filling out an entry form I have, therefore, a pretty good chance of getting things correct.
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At El Mirage I couldn't find the codes in the rule book, I was lucky enough to ask an inspector if he had the codes and he had a cheat sheet with all the codes listed. I now have my rule book earmarked where the codes are, pg. 174-179. No more rushing to find a code, plus we keep an old entry form to look up our code #'s. :cheers:
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It's listed on page 5 (table of contents) at the bottom under
Appendix
vehicle entry data codes pg.174
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guys, Costella and Yaccouci didnt make a mistake by being in
a rush.............
there is no one more experienced and successful.........
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guys, Costella and Yaccouci didnt make a mistake by being in
a rush.............
there is no one more experienced and successful.........
:cheers: thats the point.
We were just talking with a freind this morning how her account was short a bunch of money when a bank teller transposed a # from a different depositor.
JL222
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There some holes missing in this story. Yaccouci had the letters XO in engine class under Vehicle Classification. He also had the matching XO engine code. On sat. when he went in for record cert. Dan told him he had the wrong info on the entry form and the record was disqualified. Being that Dan Warner, like most of us, dosen't know the El Mirage Procedures by heart, he told Rick to re-enter the car with the correct info and then go run it. There was then a protest filed and the protest was upheld because the El Mirage procedures were not followed. The main thing that many people in Landspeed racing forget is that majority of the rules that are in place are a reaction to a problem that happened. In this case it had to due with someone building an engine to small for the class which it was running it. When it went to record cert, it was fould to be to small so the entry form was changed. This stirred up talk in the association and this rule was implemented. There are Rule Change Request forms on the SCTA websight and to the best of my knowledge no one has filled one out yet on this topic. Nominations for SCTA officers will be comming up in Oct. So if you havn't gotten the message yet please get the facts before you open your mouth and step up and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
D3
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There some holes missing in this story. Yaccouci had the letters XO in engine class under Vehicle Classification. He also had the matching XO engine code. On sat. when he went in for record cert. Dan told him he had the wrong info on the entry form and the record was disqualified. Being that Dan Warner, like most of us, dosen't know the El Mirage Procedures by heart, he told Rick to re-enter the car with the correct info and then go run it. There was then a protest filed and the protest was upheld because the El Mirage procedures were not followed. The main thing that many people in Landspeed racing forget is that majority of the rules that are in place are a reaction to a problem that happened. In this case it had to due with someone building an engine to small for the class which it was running it. When it went to record cert, it was fould to be to small so the entry form was changed. This stirred up talk in the association and this rule was implemented. There are Rule Change Request forms on the SCTA websight and to the best of my knowledge no one has filled one out yet on this topic. Nominations for SCTA officers will be comming up in Oct. So if you havn't gotten the message yet please get the facts before you open your mouth and step up and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
D3
And all this time I thought the codes were for computer work :roll:
JL222
Hope your facts are right after opening your mouth :evil:
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nice irony....GREAT reflection of OUR SOCIETY today.....
someone whined about a team setting a record
with an engine smaller than allowed.......boo freakin hoo....
and someone protested a team who made two record runs with a
legal vehicle.......and wanted their points disallowed d/t a clerical
error.........yea thats the racing spirit...
THOSE PROTESTERS SHOULD BE SO PROUD..............
(likely folks who believe in "redistribution of wealth"... etc)
no worries.....
ya cant keep the hard working , honest, fast people down for too long....
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racing at el mirage isnt the same as bonneville ---we have 2 rule books the scta-bni book and the el mirage procedures --if you have never raced there you might want to go to the el mirage procedures on the home page of www.scta-bni.org and pay attention to section 6 c and 7 k but read the whole thing if you have time ---if you dont fill out your paperwork properly and you leave the start line you cant change classes at el mirage --at bonneville you can at a cost of 300 dollars just some thoughts willie buchta
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nice irony....GREAT reflection of OUR SOCIETY today.....
someone whined about a team setting a record
with an engine smaller than allowed.......boo freakin hoo....
and someone protested a team who made two record runs with a
legal vehicle.......and wanted their points disallowed d/t a clerical
error.........yea thats the racing spirit...
THOSE PROTESTERS SHOULD BE SO PROUD..............
(likely folks who believe in "redistribution of wealth"... etc)
no worries.....
ya cant keep the hard working , honest, fast people down for too long....
You know I'm friends with Jack and i like Rick. But maybe this is Karma from the "Tag Motor" deal. Anyway, Rick will just do it again with the right numbers.
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nice irony....GREAT reflection of OUR SOCIETY today.....
someone whined about a team setting a record
with an engine smaller than allowed.......boo freakin hoo....
and someone protested a team who made two record runs with a
legal vehicle.......and wanted their points disallowed d/t a clerical
error.........yea thats the racing spirit...
THOSE PROTESTERS SHOULD BE SO PROUD..............
(likely folks who believe in "redistribution of wealth"... etc)
no worries.....
ya cant keep the hard working , honest, fast people down for too long....
You know I'm friends with Jack and i like Rick. But maybe this is Karma from the "Tag Motor" deal. Anyway, Rick will just do it again with the right numbers.
When running correctly and legal Jacks vehicles and Rick are great competitors..there is more to the story however it is like beating a dead horse...it is now old news.
Rick and his team will be running stout numbers and still could win the championship if other teams step on their Pissers again.. :oops:
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Why does this all seem like we are not "amateur racing" anymore.... Good thing I got Stainless around to fill out paperwork....
JonAmo
am⋅a⋅teur /ˈæməˌtʃʊər, -tʃər, -tər, ˌæməˈtɜr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
******We all do this for fun right???*****
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
******Well Noonan is out*****
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Why does this all seem like we are not "amateur racing" anymore.... Good thing I got Stainless around to fill out paperwork....
JonAmo
am⋅a⋅teur /ˈæməˌtʃʊər, -tʃər, -tər, ˌæməˈtɜr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
******We all do this for fun right???*****
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
******Well Noonan is out*****
I race because poverty is supposed to be good for the soul.
Didn't work. I'm still an ahole. :evil:
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Why does this all seem like we are not "amateur racing" anymore.... Good thing I got Stainless around to fill out paperwork....
JonAmo
am⋅a⋅teur /ˈæməˌtʃʊər, -tʃər, -tər, ˌæməˈtɜr/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Show IPA
–noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
******We all do this for fun right???*****
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
******Well Noonan is out*****
Mighty big talk for such a _-_-_- awe never mind.. :cheers:
Where is my parts..?
Still need the fire suit?
Later.
J
PS, the sock drawer misses you. 8-)
J
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The problem is not the el mirage rules . . . or the procedure to change the rules . . . or the computer skills of the average official . . . or whether or not the protesters were being chicken sh**s or not. The problem is that there is a flawed system for interfacing the class structure into the computers.
I used ‘codes’ for programming when I learned to use a keypunch machine and program in COBOL back when Jimmy freaking Carter was president. That same year I learned to program in BASIC and you didn't need no stinking codes to describe things that were already uniquely identified when using BASIC or anything that has been developed since.
Pick a class . . . any class. . .let's say E/CBFALT. With a unique class description like that why does the El Mirage computer need one unique code for the engine class and one unique code for the body class?? Anybody?? Anybody??? Bueller???
The answer is - you don't need a code for either. Just program the machine to recognize the actual class designation.
By sticking with the code deal they have engineered in a possible way to get things wrong. Stop that. It's really not the way to run a system where you intentionally build in possible stumbling blocks . . . . .
Oh yeah, . . . I know . . here come the replies about me not ever running at El Mirage, why don't I see a club rep, etc, etc, etc.
Just fix the program
It shouldn't require a rule change
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Exactly the point I tried to make with the guy who set the system up. No help.
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no replies like that----it just occurred to me though --maybe the number letter code thing is I.Q. test---yea i know i failed it one time myself LLOOLL willie buchta
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maybe the newest, best thing to race is a Hayabusa..... but this organization likes to race antique roadsters.... they do it there way.... if you don't like it race with the ECTA.... seem like the biggest bitches about this don't even race el-mo....
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I suppose it could be worse. Like our Postal Zip Code system. Our's has been changed 3 times but we never moved. Now it's a 9-digit number. That's 1,000,000,000 unique possible values. Every address in the US can have 10 unique zipcodes. One for the bathroom, one for the kitchen, etc. But what if you live in a mansion? You might have to share your bedroom zipcode with your closet, and possibly not get your mail. Perhaps they needed 10 digits to play it safe.
Back on subject, yes, one text file and a few lines of code would eliminate the redundancy, yet keep the code if you need them. This is 30 year old BASIC:
10 INPUT "What is the class?"; ENTRYCLASS$
20 OPEN "CLASSLIST.TXT" FOR INPUT AS #1
30 READ #1; CLASSNAME$, ENGINECODE, BODYCODE
40 IF CLASSNAME$ = "ENDOFLIST" THEN 100
50 IF CLASSNAME$ = ENTRYCLASS$ THEN 70
60 GOTO 30
70 PRINT "For ";ENTRYCLASS$; ", the body code is ";BODYCODE;". The engine code is ";ENGINECODE
80 CLOSE #1
90 GOTO 120
100 PRINT "Not a valid class name. Try again."
110 CLOSE #1
120 END
No comments on my rotten coding style, but it's not very much code, and can be done in less than 1 hour to existing code, regardless of the programming language.
But like everyone says, it is what it is, and just follow the procedures.
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There some holes missing in this story.
There are Rule Change Request forms on the SCTA websight and to the best of my knowledge no one has filled one out yet on this topic. Nominations for SCTA officers will be comming up in Oct. So if you havn't gotten the message yet please get the facts before you open your mouth and step up and be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
D3
D3,
With all due respect, if you are referring to my post that started this thread here are my thoughts.
I got the story correct, there was a clerical error on the entry form, Rick entered a different class and corresponding code on his entry form, I was standing in impound when this mistake was found, and witnessed the whole thing. In fact I was the one that suggested to Dan (which he commented was a good idea) that Rick fill out a new entry form, instead of crossing out the class and code designations on the original entry. My thought was to eliminate any confusion on what happened, and to show there was no intent to hide anything.
I have always felt discussion is good, sometimes you get points of view you may never have thought of. After digesting others points of view, then and only then can you decide whether a change is necessary or not.
Rule change request forms are not for the El Mirage Procedures. It clearly states in the El Mirage Procedures when and how to propose a change, under section I.B. of the Procedures.
I feel by bring this subject up and making racers aware of a potential problem in filling out the EM entry form I am being part of the solution. As I said originally I was not pointing any fingers, I just did not want to see this happen again to anyone.
Knowledge is power, and the more people you can get the word out to the less mistakes will be made.
Respectfully,
Tom G.
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Back on subject, yes, one text file and a few lines of code would eliminate the redundancy, yet keep the code if you need them. This is 30 year old BASIC:
10 INPUT "What is the class?"; ENTRYCLASS$
20 OPEN "CLASSLIST.TXT" FOR INPUT AS #1
30 READ #1; CLASSNAME$, ENGINECODE, BODYCODE
40 IF CLASSNAME$ = "ENDOFLIST" THEN 100
50 IF CLASSNAME$ = ENTRYCLASS$ THEN 70
60 GOTO 30
70 PRINT "For ";ENTRYCLASS$; ", the body code is ";BODYCODE;". The engine code is ";ENGINECODE
80 CLOSE #1
90 GOTO 120
100 PRINT "Not a valid class name. Try again."
110 CLOSE #1
120 END
No comments on my rotten coding style, but it's not very much code, and can be done in less than 1 hour to existing code, regardless of the programming language.
McRat,
Wow does that bring up some memories.... I started on the TI-99-4A ... Most who were into computer can relate.... BASIC was the most basic thing you could write... I remember writing those stupid 200 line programs that would bounce a stupid ball around the screens.... good ole monochrome monitor...
Jonamo
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This class and # and code problem is just not an El Mirage problem as the same system is required at Bville. Its also not just an IQ problem.
One problem is transposing. Such as 321 instead of 312 or 632 instead of 623 or whatever.
Linda who used to be a bank teller had to balance her transactions every day after closing.
Being out of balance due to transposing is a common mistake by all tellers. There's even a method to find the transposed amount used by all banks.
One thing [if nothing else] that could be changed would be a WARNING that improperly filled out class - #s and codes could result in disqualification.
JL222 :cheers:
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I just checked my entry form and log book for about the fifth time since this thread started. :-D
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i write my codes on the front of my log book....
kent