Landracing Forum
Misc Forums => How To Section => Topic started by: Calkins on May 22, 2009, 04:00:01 PM
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I figure that Mr. Buchta could answer this, but I thought I try a post to see what others are doing. What are some necessary tools to scratch build a motorcycle for LSR (ie, frames)? Also, what would be some economically price alternatives?
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I figure that Mr. Buchta could answer this, but I thought I try a post to see what others are doing. What are some necessary tools to scratch build a motorcycle for LSR (ie, frames)? Also, what would be some economically price alternatives?
Simple answer is that you will need the same tools to build a race car like in your Avatar however the jig table will be shorter. :cheers:
You could (depending on the type of bike) use a chassis that is already available and shoe-horn in the engine of choice..good luck either way.
Did you ever determine what engine you will run?
J
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Not yet, I'm still doing record and powertrain evaluations. :|
What is the compuss/angle finder tool for front end geometry called?
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Is it that simple? Well hell, I use that for drawing! Thank you
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Mr. Buchta was my dad but i will try to answer your question----first you need a plan -the more you can work out on paper the less mistakes and redoes you will have later on---part of your plan should be the research of the classes that you will run in---that part of the plan should be realistic ( you cant run 200 mph with a 500cc pushrod motor in an open bike ) and part of the plan should be the cost of the build ---can you do all of the fabrication or just the assembly --if you plan on building a frame you will need a frame jig and a tig welder if you have to buy those things you could have had someone build it for you ---my wifes bike in the build diaries has a list of parts and money spent (NO LABOR) i build a lot of frames and they range from around 700 to around 2500 dollars --ive seen some on e-bay from time to time most are drag race frames not a bad place to start if you are on a budget ---noonan is right about the jig--get a plan-- see you on the salt willie buchta
i have a new frame if you want to run a evo harley for 700 dollars
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here is the page for the costs for sheris bike http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3151.150.html
willie buchta
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So slopoke what are you building???? haven't seen or heard anything except noise. What do we know about you and your back ground in motor sports. Just wondering. :?
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So slopoke what are you building???? haven't seen or heard anything except noise. What do we know about you and your back ground in motor sports. Just wondering. :?
slopoke and I are teammates. Landspeed hovercraft (open record)!
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Mr. Buchta was my dad but i will try to answer your question----first you need a plan -the more you can work out on paper the less mistakes and redoes you will have later on---part of your plan should be the research of the classes that you will run in---that part of the plan should be realistic ( you cant run 200 mph with a 500cc pushrod motor in an open bike ) and part of the plan should be the cost of the build ---can you do all of the fabrication or just the assembly --if you plan on building a frame you will need a frame jig and a tig welder if you have to buy those things you could have had someone build it for you ---my wifes bike in the build diaries has a list of parts and money spent (NO LABOR) i build a lot of frames and they range from around 700 to around 2500 dollars --ive seen some on e-bay from time to time most are drag race frames not a bad place to start if you are on a budget ---noonan is right about the jig--get a plan-- see you on the salt willie buchta
i have a new frame if you want to run a evo harley for 700 dollars
Since you said TIG, I would assume you use chrome moly? I was leaning toward small cc 2-stroke, so CM would be better for weight. Although, I was told before, weight is traction. Would using mild steel be bad? There is a really nice TIG and a good MIG at work. A hydraulic tubing bender. We have a nice 1/4" thick, 4'X4' steel jig table too. There is a kid at work the is a 'certified' welder. I would probably have him tack it up for me, then I would take it to my hot rod building buddy to finish.
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i said tig but any kind of welding that you have the skill at would work---mild steel is your best bet--
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,3837.0.html read this ----sounds like you have a good plan so far willie buchta
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Thank you. A guy come into work awhile back. His family owns a body shop and the two boys used to build custom bikes on the side. A V-Rod low rider, a couple of turbine (!!!) bikes, blah, blah, blah. So I asked him if they still had the jigging around or if they sold it after they quit building bikes. He said that they just had a flat table to work on. Well, then I asked about stuff to setup the neck. He said 'We just put it where it looked good' I'm not sure why they quit making bikes, I think he said the market died.
Or maybe someone on one of there bikes did!
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Found this site in one in my bookmarks. I tend to do a lot of internet surfing late at night.
http://www.mechwerks.com/Mechwerks_plans_drawings.htm
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Found this site in one in my bookmarks. I tend to do a lot of internet surfing late at night.
http://www.mechwerks.com/Mechwerks_plans_drawings.htm
Mechwerks is a member of another forum I go to and he is reliable and does excellent work.
Scott
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Watch out for the people that build a chassis based solely on "looks" and not geometry..can't cheat physics or mother nature.. :wink:
What may work at 75 mph may not work the same way at 175 mph.
John
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----first you need a plan -the more you can work out on paper the less mistakes and redoes you will have later on---
I would add, full scale mockups with PVC pipe and cardboard can sanity check a lot of paper screw ups. It's been a while since I've screwed up by drawing one solid object "through" another, but it's better to catch it before the tube is cut and frame welded together. A scrap pile of PVC pipe costs less and takes less time than the "real deal"
Regarding geometry, anyone know of a better book or a book to add to Tony Foale's?
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I would add, full scale mockups with PVC pipe and cardboard can sanity check a lot of paper screw ups. It's been a while since I've screwed up by drawing one solid object "through" another, but it's better to catch it before the tube is cut and frame welded together. A scrap pile of PVC pipe costs less and takes less time than the "real deal"
Great idea! I'll try that, Thanks
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John would you please elaborate on the geometry thing im sure everyone would like to know willie buchta
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Willie,
Geometry regarding angles, rake, trail etc.
Design regarding length, strength, support, cockpit structure, distance from rear axle to swing arm pivot on a chassis with a swingarm/shock design.
Material thickness, what may be strong enough in a 72" chassis may not be as strong in a 96" chassis
What works at 50 mph may not work the same at double the speed, same thing with Boost or Nitrous fueling and timing.
Looks regarding wings for down force, engine/turbo placement that is a bad aero design.
Now I need to go get some PVC for the new bike.. :cheers:
John
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thanks john now tell us about the new bike willie buchta
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You want a good and safe chassis (frame) contact BAKKER FRAMEBOUW in the Netherlands....................
Nothing but the best..............been building M/C frames since the early 1960's for the likes of Freddy Spencer, and many other top-line GP-Riders..........now if you are interested in a sidecar chassis.........
those are build right here in the USA by BAKKER MOTORSPORTS..........been building chassis for the likes of 3 times AMA National Sidecar Roadracing Champion and many times record holder in LSR................... Larry Coleman...
And...Yes, mild-steel is O.K....BUT... if you are building a small displacement M/C you might want to use
.039 CM and Tig.
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It always seems to me that if you cant figure out how to build a frame jig or fixture, you probably should be very careful, before you test your frame on the track.
I used to supply lots of small parts to a couple of framebuilders, mounts, bungs, that sort of thing..
If you are really good you can build some frames without a jig.. if you are really bad, you might never build one, even with a jig..
We got a guy over on the sohc4 forum that built a really killer spine frame, just on a bike bench.. :-o
whatever you do, research SOONER, not Later.. and GOOD LUCK..
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What is the compuss/angle finder tool for front end geometry called?
Protractor.
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IMO, your best bet is to find a used frame from a salvage yard that has room for your engine and is STILL STRAIGHT. 1/100th of an inch out of square could cause all kinds of problems at land racing speeds, not to mention not all metals act the way you're used to when it comes to assembly. You may get everything square all tacked together just to watch it tweak itself out of shape during welding. If you use cro-moly tubing for your frame, will you use it for motor mounts too? If you use steel or aluminum for motor mounts, do one or both metals need to be pre-heated before welding? Should the welds be allowed to cool naturally or cooled with oil/cold water? All it takes is one little thing being off just a hair and all that work is for naught. I admire what you're trying to do, but by the time you get all the bugs worked out you really aren't saving time or money.
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kinetics
you'll find most of the people on this board don't care about time or money.... its more about making and building exactly what you want
Noonan...post #19....you forgot 1 very important measurement.... crank to rear axle
Kent
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True enough. Pulled out my 401k early for my build and don't expect to run at least until 2011, and all because no one had quite what i was looing for.
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Justin, probably the best way to learn to build a frame is to become a decent welder by taking night classes at the local community college. Then maybe you can watch and help a good builder in your area. Those chopper guys on TV can be bad tempered, but most folks will teach someone who wants to learn and has taken the time to master the basic skills.