Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA Rules Questions => Topic started by: MiltonP on April 29, 2009, 02:44:12 PM
-
I just called my tuner to check on the progress of derestricting my exhaust cans and he said they are ready to be installed tomorrow and dynotuning is on for Friday morning. Sounds great so far BUT... he told me they had to weld a seam around the can sleeves to put them back together again. It is hard to tell from the rulebook whether the addition of a weld seam is enough of a deviation from stock appearance to knock me out of production class so I am hoping for words of wisdom from Slim, Deb and the bike tech gang to make me feel :-) instead of :? for the next two weeks!
Aside from the seam the exhaust supposedly still looks stock from the rear, i.e.... the endcap wasn't modded.
-
Didn't you just repair it when it fell off? Can't you just grind a little to clean it up and spray with high-temp paint to make the repair look better?
-
That is what I call "leading with your chin". :-D
Kinda risky asking competitors what's legal for your entry. I found the answer to normally be NOTHING is legal. :roll:
Personally I can't see anyone having a legit beetch about welding repair.
-
Since it is legal to mess with the internal baffles in production class, I assume the intent of the rule is to keep the the diameter/area of the outlet stock along with the overall dimensions of the header and can. Yes, I do expect a variety of feedback such as this from the competitor viewpoint but I also expect a few techs will chip in with their perspective. I tend to lean towards legal since no dimensions have been altered but will live with it if tech rules it must look like it did off the showroom floor.
-
I know you have read the rule a zillion times, I have. Stock appearing, grind the welds real smooth, paint it black, keep the exit orfice stock siz and you should be ok.
-
Milt,,, "sometimes" asking the question is not the right course of action!!!!
It may have never come up, but now it will,,,, If asked what the seam is doing there,,, "tell the truth",,, you gutted the cans and put them back together,,, stock size, stock appearance,,,, all OK.. I would have ground the welds down and painted,, but then again I am more about good looks than some others are LOL
See you in a few weeks.
Charles
-
Milton:
I don't have the answer. I wish I did since I run a bike in Production class, too, and might be tempted to open up the cannisters if I knew that re-welding the seam would be allowed. I haven't done so.
But I sure will be watching this topic to see if someone chimes in with an official comment. I admit to having been a bit shy about asking the question -- for the reasons already stated. Let's see what comes of this.
-
Milt... you will give us the real answer post race...
do you have before and after pictures...
do you have a set of stock cans just in case... or to run on the dyno to make sure you helped and not hurt the performance...
Good luck and have fun...
-
Should be on the dyno tonight or tomorow morning and I have a jet kit ready so we can mess it up even more :-o but it will be a bummer if it ends up worse than it started out. We don't have a baseline run unfortunately. I don't have spare stock cans and am not real enthusiastic about buying another set though Speedwerks feels confident they can be found at a salvage yard they know about.
I don't have the rulebook on me but it is definitely one of those vague ones. Something about viewing from the end or down the centerline had us debating a bit in the shop. Bummer if the performance improvement is allowed, as several techs told me, but the only way to achieve it knocks you out for cosmetic reasons but I will comply. Not sure grinding, sanding and painting cans is what was intended. Anyways, I can always run T/O and pretend I have a record. :roll:
-
Stainless, you hit it on the head.
"do you have a set of stock cans just in case... or to run on the dyno to make sure you helped and not hurt the performance..."
One of the last stories that CYCLE Magazine did was a comparison of about 10 after market exhaust systems.
1. All of them sounded different than stock.
2. All cost more than stock.
3. 70% of them made LESS power than stock.
I found that by removing the air cleaner from a 600cc Honda F2 I lost 37 MPH at Bonneville. It wouldn't even run well with the choke on.
These bikes have been well developed and sometimes tuning measures, that we are certain will help, actually cause problems. I'd dyno it with stock and gutted cans to see what really happened.
FREUD
-
Of course this isn't official by any means, but here is a quote from 7.E.1
"The motorcycle must appear identical in all respects to the production model it represents, ......"
Actually, I am interested in knowing the outcome of the dyno.
-
Here's my unofficial thoughts on the subject. Unofficial because the bike is not sitting in front of me and no doubt a call like this will need discussion with more than one tech.
I agree with the must appear identical and putting efforts into making it appear identical to stock. We all know that people cut the cans open in production class to gut them but the point is that it shouldn't be blatantly obvious that it was done. My thoughts are if I walk up to your bike and there's a big weld sticking out that seems to not be stock and it causes me to say hey what's that, then you didn't do a good enough job with it. Now we can debate this all day long given the fact that certain stickers may be removed and body color/paint no longer needs to remain stock but my opinion is that changes like this shouldn't be obvious. My recommendation is to grind it down until it blends. Paint is good touch but I personally could overlook that in light of the fact that you can change body paint/color.
The other thing I generally try to consider with something like this is if what I am seeing provides the bike with an advantage over another competitor. In this case the weld its self does not provide an advantage and can possibly prove an aerodynamic disadvantage but the reason it is there does provide an advantage. With that in mind I think you need to make every effort possible to hide the fact that it was cut & rewelded.
Now keep in mind this is a classification issue and not a safety issue so it ultimately falls to impound and more importantly your fellow competitor & your conscience to police. You may not have anyone racing the same class but those that have run production and may run production that have put forth great effort to make performance enhancements and still appear stock will be the ones you need to contend with. Oh and pretty much any old racer that see's it & just says hey that ain't right has the right to call you on it. It's been done and will continue to be done.
Legally running production class takes the most effort, in my opinion, and in this case I believe you need to make every effort to conceal this modification. My bottom line recommendation, grind it smooth and if it's majorly discolored, paint it.
-
Here's my unofficial thoughts on the subject. Unofficial because the bike is not sitting in front of me and no doubt a call like this will need discussion with more than one tech.
I agree with the must appear identical and putting efforts into making it appear identical to stock. We all know that people cut the cans open in production class to gut them but the point is that it shouldn't be blatantly obvious that it was done. My thoughts are if I walk up to your bike and there's a big weld sticking out that seems to not be stock and it causes me to say hey what's that, then you didn't do a good enough job with it. Now we can debate this all day long given the fact that certain stickers may be removed and body color/paint no longer needs to remain stock but my opinion is that changes like this shouldn't be obvious. My recommendation is to grind it down until it blends. Paint is good touch but I personally could overlook that in light of the fact that you can change body paint/color.
The other thing I generally try to consider with something like this is if what I am seeing provides the bike with an advantage over another competitor. In this case the weld its self does not provide an advantage and can possibly prove an aerodynamic disadvantage but the reason it is there does provide an advantage. With that in mind I think you need to make every effort possible to hide the fact that it was cut & rewelded.
Now keep in mind this is a classification issue and not a safety issue so it ultimately falls to impound and more importantly your fellow competitor & your conscience to police. You may not have anyone racing the same class but those that have run production and may run production that have put forth great effort to make performance enhancements and still appear stock will be the ones you need to contend with. Oh and pretty much any old racer that see's it & just says hey that ain't right has the right to call you on it. It's been done and will continue to be done.
Legally running production class takes the most effort, in my opinion, and in this case I believe you need to make every effort to conceal this modification. My bottom line recommendation, grind it smooth and if it's majorly discolored, paint it.
Well said!!
-
Cutting across the muffler is the easy way to open it but then you are left with the weld. More time consuming (read expensive) is to slit it lengthwise on the lower wheel side where it doesn't show. That said a good grind and paint job should get you through. Want the worse bike to do? A twin titanium muffler GSXR 1000. Deb's comments tell you all. LSL
-
Deb, and the rest and the rest of the gang, thanks for the input. I just took the cans to the shop that did the custom welding on my trailer since I figured they had much more experience grinding welds than Speedwerks. They did a small section on the backside and the weld disappeared though the chrome has a bit of a brushed metal look. I feel it should be much more 'in the spirit' of the rule now. Speedwerks was used to opening cans to remove baffles but doesn't have to worry about the appearance for road racing. By the way, the factory weld pattern for the bafffles prevented a lengthwise cut. The cans would look better with those ground down as well and the finished brushed or painted but I will wait until I get feedback next weekend before making them look better than stock! :cheers:
-
Milt,
Hope the changes have the desired result.... More MPH's.... As I recall you only needed a few more MPH to get the record ?
Good luck,,, see you this weekend.
Charles
-
Yep, needed 2 mph and pretty sure I could have done it but they were out of official gas so I so I didn't push it last event. I went ahead and made these changes which I had planned anyways following the pure stock baseline runs since you never know if conditions will be as favorable. Besides, I had to get rid of that new bike smell!
:cheers:
-
For what this is worth.
When I got back from Maxton's May event, I did a little dyno testing with the 'Busa's stock exhaust ('00 model). I used pump gas (93 Shell) and kept the AFR "kinda close" (12.6-13.1 : 1). My wHP comparison numbers were done for 9K - 10.8K RPMS and the differences shown are basically through-out that RPM range. This isn't "scientific" because I didn't "tune" the bike to the maximum possible for each part removed/installed. I just wanted to get a ball park figure for each exhaust component.
My drilled cans (holes internally in the chambers) cost the bike 3.5 wHP as compared to no cans at all.
OEM cans cost the bike 3 wHP (or 0.5 wHP better than my drilled ones)
The mid-pipes cost nothing, same wHP attached or removed. Just a lot quieter installed.
The stock header, as compared to a Brock street header, cost ~6 wHP.
Installing the mid and can on the Brock Streetsmart, cost 1.5 wHP as compaired to just the Brock header installed.
-
Someday if I have a stock set of cans handy I will run some tests. In this case, I decided to have faith in the judgement of someone who roadraced fairly successfully on the 500. I feel pretty sure my main issue, other than fogging up my face shield, last meet was that plus 1 on the front sprocket was a bit too much. I will put it back to 16 and go minus 1 on the rear thise time out.
As far as the fogging goes, I will probably put a fog city shield on the helmet. The rulebook isn't specific about leaving the shield cracked but since the starter wants it down i suppose that is the case. I wouldn't want it cracked on a unfaired bike but I wouldn't need it either as the vents would be getting plenty of air. Didn't care much for getting completely fogged up a few hundred feet down the run. :-o
-
I think if you were NOT going after the Production Record you would be Fine,but if it's a record run? Impound should{in a Perfect World :wink:}notice,and would disqualify You :??
As stated earlier You must Not be able to see any Mods to qualify for production class records :??
Your Playing with a Big Can of Worms,and Every Production LSR Racer will be watching this Post Like a Hawk :evil:!
Keep us Posted and Good Luck this 2009 Season Everyone :cheers:.................
-
Someday if I have a stock set of cans handy I will run some tests. In this case, I decided to have faith in the judgement of someone who roadraced fairly successfully on the 500. I feel pretty sure my main issue, other than fogging up my face shield, last meet was that plus 1 on the front sprocket was a bit too much. I will put it back to 16 and go minus 1 on the rear thise time out.
As far as the fogging goes, I will probably put a fog city shield on the helmet. The rulebook isn't specific about leaving the shield cracked but since the starter wants it down i suppose that is the case. I wouldn't want it cracked on a unfaired bike but I wouldn't need it either as the vents would be getting plenty of air. Didn't care much for getting completely fogged up a few hundred feet down the run. :-o
I agree with the +1 front.
I just found it interesting, in my case, that I didn't gain anything (lost 0.5 wHP) by modifiy the OEM cans.
-
The legality of the cans was discussed, at my prompting, but the conclusion was that you are allowed to refinish, ie... paint or rechrome, parts. In this case it looks like a scratched discolored area but there is no weld bead is there. Even if it was, I am not sure a weld is considered a performance mod as much as a repair. All the factory baffle welds are still there. The end cap was not removed or enlarged. Per the rules, all performance modifications must be out of view which they are. Painting, polishing,etc... are not considered performance modifications to the best of my knowledge and I am pretty sure we are allowed to paint/refinish cans. I believe the spirit of the rule is that visible specs/dimensions have not been altered. Is can finish a deciding factor considering you can have a race built engine?
RansomT - Others have also there is a possibility that altering the baffles had no positive impact but in your case I am thinking the Busa has much better designed stock exhaust cans than my 500 has.
-
This thread has puzzled me for some time. There is a very short list of things I do know (particularly abou LSR). But some things I do know are:
Many people and indeed events feel that someone not running on a record should not run.
I will probably never run near a record.
Milt, you are knowledgeableabout your bike, dedicated to getting the most out of it that you can, and running for a record.
Many people I admire and readily defer to have expressed interest ( and hterefore approval of) the results of your work.
That the rule book speaks to the appearance of the bike- removing badges, trim, etc.
That the rules for production cars seem more liberal
That I have run a "production" bike that I did not feel was truly production
That ECTA operates on an honor system
But I also know that the rule book states "The only modifications which may or must be made are as follows:" -----
It just seems that production would simply mean-- as produced.
-
Very good point, RelaxedFit, and maybe it means that a change needs to be made to the rulebook. The previous line states ' Any performance modifications must be out of view.' It definitely contradicts 'The only modifications which may or must be made are as follows;' I think the first line should be removed from the rulebook even though it will eliminate me from production class. I have a feeling though that others won't be happy either though as that means their built engines eliminate them as well.
If the spirit is to allow hidden performance modifications then the second line should read 'The only visible modifications which may...' and I think it should probably have the addition of allowing changes to finishes such as painting, powdercoating and polishing. I guess this is why we have both street and production classes for the cars. My 'externally stock' exhaust cans will be powdercoated black as of monday and I will go ahead and enter this meet as P/P again and will hopefully set the record after this gearing change which is also not allowed if we follow the second line in the rulebook. I expect to pass safety tech and will not argue failing the record inspection or any protests. All I ask is that the 2010 rulebook is modified so there is no more wiggle room. I will have learned a valuable lesson about listening to all those who said first thing...clean out those baffles and maybe about posting changes on here! :? I leave it to those with major investments in their engines to decide what class they should really be running. :-P
PS - I really don't want to Plymouth off everybody running in production class but maybe, just maybe, production should really mean production if we want to run our bikes with other organizations assuming that is their interpretation. Since they don't have 'street' classes, i suggest we skip adding that and just go fight it out in modifieid. The SS classes for the cars has become a bit of a joke lately anyways with cars that will never face a stoplight running there.
-
milton---if the rules said absolutely stock ---if you broke a record you would have to pull your engine all the way apart and prove that it was in fact stock----the scta inspectors dont have the time and neither do you---how would you like to have to prove that your cams had the stock duration-------now the tech guys check the bore and stroke and you are good to go---thats something that the new people in lsr might not understand either----if you break a record you have to pull the engine down (with some exceptions ) so better bring your tools and some spare gaskets willie buchta
im talking about bonneville here
-
Unfortunately it isn't that clear cut Willie. One line says 'out of view' while the other says 'The only modifications...' ECTA has been working hard to get inline with SCTA so that our folks won't run into issues if we run out there but I don't have their rulebook for 2009 to see how it matches up. It also seems as if BUB may be the one we are more concerned with as many of the bikes are heading for that event versus Speedweek. I am starting to feel like I may not be very popular following this thread but then again it wasn't like I was 'the man' before. :cheers: Guess I can always go run and hide back in the Miata in Super Street. 8-)
-
Sounds like about the same results as the CYCLE MAGAZINE tests back in the stone ages.
If drilling some holes made it better, the manufacturer would have done it.
FREUD
-
i wish i had the answer ---sheri and i run in the sidecar class --the rules are different than production---but after reading the rules it seems pretty simple to me --external has to be stock ---inside do what you want within your cc class --i could live with that-- seems like less rules than the sidecar class--and i know that the scta and ecta rules though close are not the same willie buchta
-
Milton, stop worrying... there is no such thing as a "stock" production class motorcycle running in a LSR event that is competitive. Everyone mods their bikes. That is why it says "appear" as produced. When we lost our production record, the bike that took it ran without their rear fender, the parts manual called it a fender, but they were able to get the factory to change the manual to call it a license plate holder several months after the bike was protested but before the board ruled on the protest (they were factory sponsored and hoped to sell bikes on the record). Just keep your mods out of view, have fun and be safe. If you want your mods in view, enter modified... no one ever has a problem with them.
-
Believe me, Stainless, I won't be losing any sleep over this. Absolutely pure stock, to me anyways, runs counter to the spirit behind land speed racing. It would be like 'one and done' where someone just goes and buys the most recent hot model, puts a 100 pound rider on it, runs once, sets the record and parks it knowing that is all that could be done with that bike. Maybe someone with a dealership might enjoy doing that and if there was another street class then let them do so but the fun of season long internal tinkering to get that next tenth would be missing.
-
Milt,, come back, come back, drive the car,, drive the car,,, Miata where are you Miata !!!
LOL
Charles
-
Please,please understand that I meant no sugggestion that anything you are doing is wrong. I agree with your rule wording changes; I never have preffered more rules/laws.
Just get confused a lot.
-ken
-
milton im a problem solver and fabricator --i do not have a ecta rule book --if you send me one i would be glad to read it and to help you solve your problems with the production class rules--my address is willie buchta 921 chicago ave. modesto calif. 95351 willie buchta
-
"Pure" Production would have to include jetting and sprockets, too, wouldn't it?
-
and any worn parts would have to be replaced with pure production ---as most of us see the pure production class would be impossible to enforce--- and if it could be would take days and days to get through tech---unless the tech guys would take your word for it ----DONT THINK SO willie buchta
im getting a ecta rule book and will read it very carefully ---
-
Charles, There is an engine builder 16 miles away with tons of Miata experience who seems to like your position on this. You aren't in cahoots with him by any chance are you?
:cheers:
By the way, the Miata is making a brief return to the road circuits in two weeks but only for a 20 minute session. Needed to add Jefferson circuit at Summit Point to my trunk lid.
-
Milt, If I could fit in that car I would drive the circuit for you....
No cahoots with your engine guy,,, but your car is a neat lil ride and I like seeing it at Maxton... Us car guys have to "represent" .... (I am a bike guy at heart as well,,, just to many "get off's", to many broke bones and a few to many lbs to try 2 wheeled competition again)
See ya in a few weeks.
Charles