Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Steering - Suspension - Rear End => Topic started by: adamadam on April 19, 2009, 11:44:36 PM
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Hi,
I'm just looking for information on front wheel drive streamliner diff options. Ive heard of a few streamliners like Danny Boy and Ken Walkey's streamliner using Halibrand quick changes, but I was after some more specifics. Has anyone had any experience using/building/modifying a fwd streamliner
Is something like a Dana front diff from a Bronco/F truck, cut and narrowed an option or are there particular problems with this setup? One problem I thought was availability of low gears, hence the quick changes in the faster streamliners. Is a full custom diff the only real option? Unless you have a lot of money to spend, are you better off to go rear wheel drive?
Any thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated. I tried a few searches and found bit and pieces here and there, but not a whole lot. If there are any links please let me know.
Thanks
Adam
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Adam,
I am sure there are a lot of people on this forum who can answer your question but if you want a good answer you must be more specific. What works for a 500 HP motor might not work for a 2000 HP motor. What are your goals? More specific how fast do you want to go? What will you motor red line be? What tire size? Once you figure that out then you know what ratio you will need for a ring and pinion. Or what ratio you will need to get out of a quick change.
You might want to check out what Sparky is doing on his new lakester build.
Tom G.
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I am using a GM 10/12 8 7/8 "caddy center section with 2.28 and installed GM 1/2 ton outers and hubs
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A few more specifics are, a blown 383 Chev with 5-6000 rpm peak power turning 25 inch Goodyear LSR's. I'm looking for around 7-800hp, and I will be trying for 150-200mph first up, but I would like some room to move.
I'm not after a specific ratio answer for now, more just an opinion of whether or not it is worth going FWD over RWD. If a lot of custom (or V. Expensive) work will be needed then i might just shorten my 9 inch rear, and sort some steering out front. I'm just looking at options and seeing what is out there, and what other people have come up with at the moment. Brainstorming, or barnstorming.
Thanks
Adam
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Winters Quick Change Company offers a rear called a front quick change with the input going thru the back of the rear cover. I have sold several of them but I would recommend the reversed R&P and turn the housing around and drive it thru the front. A QC will give you a wide gear selection. You can get up to a 2:18 Final drive with the 4:12 R&P. They also offer a 3:08 and 2:00 R&P but not in reverse R&P.
Hope this helps.
Joe
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Thanks for the info guys, that's the sort of stuff I was after.
Anyone else using a 4wd front end? Sparky, I haven't seen your car, did you narrow the front end much/at all? If you did as it a home job or did someone do it for you? Ive read about shortening the dana's by grinding the welds off the nuckle/tube joint, knocking it off then welding it back on. That was for 4x4's though, a little slower.
Thanks
Adam
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A few more specifics are, a blown 383 Chev with 5-6000 rpm peak power turning 25 inch Goodyear LSR's. I'm looking for around 7-800hp, and I will be trying for 150-200mph first up, but I would like some room to move.............
The 383 really puts you at a disadvantage as you will be at the bottom of the B motor class. The blown gas record is around 308 (pretty low and who knows how long it will be that low) and the blown fuel around 380 I believe. Front wheel drive can offer a lot of advantages, but is going to me more expensive and complex and if you want to run that motor which would be very hard to be competitive with I'd just go with the rear drive. Now if you intend to build a 439 cu. in. B motor that would be a different deal.
One of my "someday" things to do is to try making a box using over the over the counter quick change gears with an input and output both pointed in the same direction. It would go in front of one of "Sparky's" GM low gear ratio differentials. The motor would be in the car just behind the front diff with the aft end pointing forward with a drive line under the front differential (to the side of the pumpkin) to the quick change box's input shaft. The output from the quick change would go via a drive-shaft to the differential that has it's input facing forward. Very similar to a V drive setup. Except for making the box this would use low cost items. I think the box could be made fairly simply using two stock quick change input shafts with their bearings and such from a current quick change. That way stock gears could be used and the only machining would be a box to hold the gears/seals and a stock quick change rear cover.
c ya and good luck,
Sum
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Thanks Sum,
I'm not too worried about records at the moment, I'm in Australia, and there aren't any streamliner records set, so you could pick an engine class and get a record IF you make it down and back. That is until someone else gets the same idea. For now, I just want to get to the salt and get even more addicted.
Your idea sounds quite interesting it would take some work but there's no reason why it couldn't happen. I intend on building a bigger small block down the track, but I already have the 383 sorted, and my first year will be more of a shakedown run. If the car runs well, I will go all out. We only get to run once a year over here though. There's talk of short testing days at some airports, so hopefully something will come of them, but you cant do too much when you only have a mile from go to whoa.
Thanks
Adam
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I would not try a FWD without some sort of freewheeling provision---talk to Johnson with the SALTASOUROUS--- when you backout or blow up it gets real intresting with FWD---I am planning on using my GV which I ordered with the freewheeling option---much to my regrett we have 2 experiences how this helps---even with rear wheel drive when you kick one out at speed.
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---talk to Johnson with the SALTASOUROUS--- when you backout or blow up it gets real intresting with FWD---
I have photos of a dented up nose on the SALTASOUROUS but never saw the incident or got to ask them what happened.
What's the story on that one? I've always been fond of that car.
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Sockjohn, the dent was caused by hitting the four and a half mile marker on my record back up run. I didn't see it, nor can you see it by watching the DVD one frame at a time. The DVD is Marks 07 World Finals coverage from the SCTA.
Fact is I built a front wheel drive because I planned on converting to a streamliner after sorting everything out at the slower lakester speeds. If I had it to do over I would build a car that looks like the Markley Bros. streamliner and run the wheels out side the body as a lakester. Then I would tuck the steering and diff inside the body and run it as a rear wheel drive streamliner. I had too little experience and no mentor with first hand experience when I built my car. If I had to start now and build FWD I would just copy the fellows that have the front wheel lakester in the build diaries. That is a stroke of genius. If you do run FWD check with a number of experts as the front end geometry is very different with FWD.
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I do not think the "Strange Days" car has any freewheeling provision.
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Sparky, I just asked the boss at TSR racing if that would concern him and he confirmed what TCI told me and that was "when motor locks up front pump is no longer turning and clutches are not applied."
He wrote a widely used book on the racing power glide and I except his explanation. He said they would release almost instantly or at least as fast as you could clutch a stick shift.
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nice to know----I am willing to bet they learn to shift to netrual as they put the chute out or berfore they lift
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(http://people.montana.com/~kaparich/11_4_07_2.jpg)
Here's a look at the diff in the Strange Day bellytank. The rear is a Winters with bassakward gearing I purchased from Joe Timney. Joe is great to work with. The steering box is a sweet. The knuckles are Jeep Cherokee switched right to left. Axles were converted to Dana 44. Hope this helps. Tread width is four feet.
We are real believers in front wheel drive for the salt. The weight is where it should be, and the car should be pretty spinproof. Of course we havent been on the salt yet, so my two cents worth may be worth just that.
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These are some things we learned the hard way about front wheel drive and streamliners. One thing that is imperative first and foremost is to have an over running clutch or sprag on the drive train so that you absolutely positively cannot ever come down on compression (assume worst case scenario of breaking one axle or cv joint). Also, we have torn up quite a few u-joints (even the good billet ones) so we only use CV joints now. We use a Casales unit like is used on drag boats. The next item is to run independent front suspension. That will cure a great amount of handling problems. Make sure the tire runout is exactly the same on both driven wheels. Pay close attention to the offset of the wheels so that the contact patch is exactly in the center of the king pin inclination point. We run a Halibrand quick change with our own 2:1 ring and pinion. Depending on speed, we run as low as a 1.55/1 final drive ration. We also run a spool. As far as testing you don't have to be going very fast to be able to tell if the car is right. It should be stable under acceleration, deceleration and most telling of all is at a steady speed. Sixty mph will actually tell you all you need to know. I think we kind of pioneered fast front wheel drive cars that actually handle. Jim Fueling came over to look at our set up and the next year he had one exactly like ours. Good luck to you on your endeaver.
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This problem looks easier to deal with using automatic transmission(s). Rather than try to de-clutch to avoid load reversal damage (super-human reaction time and reflexes, or very strong accumulators/cylinders) a solenoid dump valve simply drops the line pressure clamping the clutches, bands, blah by venting it back to the pan, and you have free-wheel - the pump still turns and lubricates/cools gears etc.
Could be manual driver's control, brake light switch, throttle switch, etc.
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What R T is refering to about the kingpin inclination angle and tire patch is known as SCRUB RADIUS---that is what was causing the RATICAL to hunt so bad at speed I had 3.5" instead of 0"
---I cant imagine how bad it would be on a FWD not at ZERO scrub radius.
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I would suggest going to Formsprag on the web and look at their sprag clutches, I am sure that they have one that will work for almost any motor you are considering and they will automatically disengage your drive from the front wheels as soon as the engine rpm is less than the input pinion speed. i.e. the motor has blowed up! A little thinking and you could probably make it fit on the input shaft to the diff. This would completely eliminate any human input to de-couple the engine in case of failure.
Rex
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On the Treit streamliner build I have some questions to ask BEFORE I post his new front drive-steering system.
Having read thru this post, I better be prepared for I am certain that I will be quizzed.
I'll study before I take the test questions.
FREUD
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One of my "someday" things to do is to try making a box using over the over the counter quick change gears with an input and output both pointed in the same direction. It would go in front of one of "Sparky's" GM low gear ratio differentials. The motor would be in the car just behind the front diff with the aft end pointing forward with a drive line under the front differential (to the side of the pumpkin) to the quick change box's input shaft. The output from the quick change would go via a drive-shaft to the differential that has it's input facing forward. Very similar to a V drive setup. Except for making the box this would use low cost items. I think the box could be made fairly simply using two stock quick change input shafts with their bearings and such from a current quick change. That way stock gears could be used and the only machining would be a box to hold the gears/seals and a stock quick change rear cover.
hey Sum, I had a close look at a streamliner that was real close to what you are describing...
It was FWD streamliner, motor behind the diff (aft end pointed forward), drive line passing under the diff and went into a custom-made gearbox (with interchangable gears.. think; older lathe feed gearbox). That custom gearbox was mated to the front of a TH400 GM slushbox (bellhousing and converter facing forward, and the whole gearbox-transmission ans conveter assy inside the nose, ahead of the diff). The trans was fitted with a short tailshaft, and short driveshaft that went into a Winters forward facing diff. I don't think the Winters diff had QC gears, but it's been 12 years or more. I think the custom gearbox had commonly available QC gears in it, to facilitate gearing changes by simply pulling off the sheetmetal nose and the gearbox cover. Like your idea, it was a well thought out solution, I thought.
The drivetrain all worked, but the rest of the car had handling issues and sadly was destroyed in early testing. I've got one picture of the car I'll try to post
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Mine (nearly completed) has the engine and trans ahead of the inverted dropout 12 bolt . The driveshaft runs under the spool , next to the ring gear and back to a Casale V-drive with a Casale overrunning clutch on the output and foreword to the pinion . Lots of traction and directional stability and a few chalanges .
My friend has some photos of it on his site:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motorsportsinnovations.com%2Fbonneville.htm&ei=yZH7SenGL5qWMcXjoMQE&rct=j&q=burk+streamliner&usg=AFQjCNEDKndewf_N6l5UcvwvJQTWyk657g
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WOW!
Mr Burk, that is some awesomely fine bit of work, and a gutsy, creative approach to a streamliner!
I feel like Simon Cowell must have felt when that broad with the bushy eyebrows knocked everybody dead.
AWESTRUCK!. . . and from NJ, too! Not exactly a Landspeed haven.
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John, Very nice work!!! When do you plan on running the car? I want to be there. :cheers:
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When do you plan on running the car? I want to be there.
Shooting for Speedweek but lots of details to finish .
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If a fellow had wheels back space set up to use spacers at 0 scrub, he could have the option of moving the scrub inboard just a little. FWD drag cars do that, to handle the pitch across when one wheel slips a little, or when an axle let's go, running a spool. I.E.: If the right side is pulling better then the left, the inset scrub radius helps the driver hold the wheel to the right a little (very small), to prevent the front end from "climbing over the left", so to speak. I'm told it's pretty natural when everything is set right....it responds quicker than driver reaction can.
You could use whatever spacing makes the car steerable as the car is worked up to speed (it'll be pretty close to 0, but thin shims are available). I honestly don't know what it'd do on super high HP/speed stuff.... I don't think the front drivers ever got past 1000-1500 HP and low 200mph range (Chevy Cobalt and Chris Rado's Scion TC for example).
Wouldn't be hard to do, and it'd give the option of dialing in the steering without rebuilding stuff.
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John, WOW I look forward to seeing your car run--- :cheers:
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JimL, could you point me in the right direction to study more about neg. scrub radius and FWD? I think I have fiqured out a way to mix and match parts and get away from the 4X4 outer snouts like John's frt axel has and the Golden Rod as well as Marlo's. It could have a way to space without using spacers behind wheels.
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This is a link to a very different setup.
www.cardomain.com/ride/2617265
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1200 HP, several passes above 340, nice handling, sweet.
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WOW to John Burk. I like the looks of your new liner. We actually had a similar design at one point. As the Aussies say-Good on you mate. Go for it. Enjoy but remember that you can always tell the pioneers by thwe arrows in their backs.
Richard
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Sparky
If Corvette IRS rear hubs like item number: 200336146739 on Ebay could be bolted to production king knuckles you'd have non projecting hubs . The question is are the bearings good enough . On production 4wd pickups the engineers chose to have the wheel bearings above the tread and live with a few inches of scrub radius . Dodges and some Fords have closely spaced bearings which work fairly well . Custom wheels with negative offset to reduce the scrub radius put the bearings off center which is hard on them . Chevys have plenty of space between the bearings so they can handle the leverage . Dodges and some Fords have closely spaced bearings and would fail quickly . The Corvette hubs may be the same , especially if they don't have Timken bearings . Custom hubs can be made with zero scrub radius and centered bearings .
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I am looking at '98 Exploder outer wheel stud assy with the bearings and female splines, earlier Jeep outer male shafts, GM inner shafts that use same Spicer u joints as the GMs---will respline the inner shafts to fit the GM 7.5" carriers. Will require a machined outer brgs. hub to fit the GM outer steering knuckel and will have to mate the inner knuckel to the axel tubes on the GM 7.5 housing.---in process not done yet!!!! pretty sure we can though.
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I'll go out on a limb, here, and offer an opinion.... do not use late model "double row" angular bearing type knuckles and hubs. These things allow more movement of the hub, on the spindle, than you'd expect. The road racing FWD cars have to put springs behind the brake caliper pistons just to get the pads back to the disc, after hard cornering (the wheels stand back up on the straights, due to the angular design).
There is so much rock in the "sealed double-row" bearings that the pads get knocked back during a turn....driver gets to the next turn (without springs behind the caliper pistons) and goes for the pedal and it hits the floor. It'll pump up, of course, but if he's any good...he already ran out of room.
I'd be running hub/knuckles that use taper bearings (the old Timken style). You can be sure you'll keep the wheels from getting into lateral vibration (especially if you wind up with near zero scrub). I don't know what setup the parts you are looking at use....no experience with them.
Getting the scrub inboard is strictly wheel back spacing (more). If the bearings are good, and tapered/adjustable, I'm not worried about the load being out of line with original design. We (hopefully) don't jump these cars, or hit giant potholes at low speed, kiss curbs, or all the other stuff that customers do to the cars/trucks.
Hope I'm making sense....been welding a lot today, and I'm pretty foggy tonight. :-P
Regards, JimL
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Jim L, Thanks for your input.
I will be the first to say that I have NO experience with performance FWD applications of any kind.
But why would we be able to put any more loads on the salt, than a fully loaded Surbuan or Explorer on patchy ice in 4 wheel drive?
The 4x4 inner and outer 1/2 shafts both have thrust surfaces, and I am not understanding where the side loads are going to come from.
I have some research to do for I do not know exactly what the definition of several of the Eng. type terms you used. I have learned the hard way not to trust or assume my laymans understandings and term usage.
Thanks again Jim L, I will be smarter by this time next week.
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Jiml,
When you say "late model douple row angular bearing" do you mean double row angular contact ball bearings? I would certainly think for a fwd application with big hp, like Sparky will be applying, you would want to go with either a pair of angular contact ball bearings that are preloaded against each other or with tapered roller bearings. It is very hard to set up tapered roller bearings (Timken) so that they are preloaded. They are so stiff in the axial direction that getting them properly preloaded usually requires some pretty close machining and if you get to much preload they will self destruct. This is why properly applied angular contact ball bearings are probably a better choice as they are a little more forgiving and will give you lower drag than the "Timken" bearing set up.
Rex
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Correct...yes they are angular contact to "self center" the wheel when driving straight. Low friction, no maintenance, but the trade off is imperfect hub angle control on the spindle, under hard side loads. They really work great for our daily drivers, and last a good long time without problems.
I never knew about this until I worked with the Celebrity cars for Long Beach Grand Prix. It turns out StopTech (their brake supplier) new exactly what was going on, as soon as the problems were mentioned to them. Those were brand new cars, zero miles, and the tires were not that wide and sticky (had to fit into stock fenders)..... that's some "give" to knock the pads back so far that the pedal goes to the floor at the next turn!
The people that run them really hard (track days and all)...they seem to give up much quicker than traditional tapered bearings. I don't have any proof that they would be a problem at 300 mph...but I'm not sure.
For me, "Not sure" doesn't measure up to "worked fine for the last 50 years".
I get more and more Ludite, every day, don't I ?! (probably spelled that wrong)
Regards, (old and stuck in the mud) JimL
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I've learned that Spicer u-joints are the weak point on Dana 44 front ends but there are way stronger u-joints available like CTM , Ox Joint , thanks to the offroad and rock crawler market .
One or the problems with non-serviceable production hubs with angular contact ball bearings is they aren't rated so for lsr it's trial and error .
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Thanks John
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On high strength u-joints for Dana 44 hubs for four/front wheel drive . All the brands eliminate the needle bearings so the pins on the cross can be larger . Some have the crosses titanium coated and run against the caps metal to metal and might gall at high speed with slight steering input . CTM u-joints have thin bushings so they would be the ones to use .
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Thanks John, My buddy Bill Ratliff [ Arlington 4x4 --- 817 994 6085 c 817 790 0657 s ] (set up my 7.5 GM with the 2.14 gears )
has a pull truck "Radical Rat". Those are the type of U-Joint he runs has 10 years on the non bearing U joints. those are the type we are leaning towards.
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This is all very useful information. Keep it coming.
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Update,
Terry Mourer, Mourer Machine Co, called today, It is going to be relatively easy to chuck the outer axel tube with the King and increase the inside diameter to a be able to slide them over the outer tube of the 7.5 GM after they both have been cut to fit. Then we will cut and spline the GM 4x4 1/2 shafts for the 7.5 Torsen center section with the 2.14 ratio. We will also have to find a seal that will work with the ID of the 7.5 and we will have to machine a seal surface on the axel shafts.
I understand we are in a HIGH RISK application, but I THINK we will be helped very much by the action of the Torsen, which virtually eliminates shock caused loads from wheelspin.
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Sparky several people make stronger custom alloy axles rather than modify the 1040 steel Danas .
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John is right-- for example, my Porsche axles were made out of 4340 by the Summers Brothers. Others such as Strange Engineering can do similar work.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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I plan on trying the concept with stock eng---if steers ok then will spend the money to try to bullet proof---thanks guys