Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: SPARKY on April 16, 2009, 07:19:49 PM
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I have been intriqued by FWD Liners since I became the eng partner on Skip's "Rose" I have a front axel and a tank I hauled to Phoenix from TX. These will be the basics of for the car to go with my 211 liner number I have had for some time.
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Strange Tank!!
SS 1 what did this thing fit into? I have been told it may be a B 58 bomb bay ferry tank.
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Sparky me boy, looks like the foundation for about a 2000 hr. and 100k project (if you can do it in that short of time and that inexpensively. LOL) George
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2000 hrs maybe---but I don't have that much money, and already have most of the parts---this thing will be PRIMITIVE--just like his older brother---does that mean I can't start---or just can't finish. lol
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Do you REALLY need another "primitive" hat generating machine?
How will this thing steer????????????? (mmmmooooooooooo)
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David---don't need just CRAVE!!!!!!
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Sparky,
What is the diameter of the tank? Looks like a fun project.
Tom G.
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Its ok, the salt is good for you!
David---don't need just CRAVE!!!!!!
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app. 33" on the big end
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Christmas came early ordered a new JD Square Model 32, with a 2" die-- because I finally found somewhat of a deal on 2" dom .120. SW steel orded a bundle back in '04 for someone and hadn't sold one stick. The leanto on my shop will be finished by the first of the year so we will have room for a Sum Style build table inside after we CLEAN house?-
We will post picts as we progress we will build the cage first which will be in front of the FWD axel' then the back frame for the"STUFF".
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Sparky' set me straight on this. You are going to sit in front of the front axle??????
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That is correct--- would rather be in front than behind all this mess
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That is correct--- would rather be in front than behind all this mess
Kinda like the Green Monster! I can't wait for the build thread pics.
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Sparky' set me straight on this. You are going to sit in front of the front axle??????
:-o
That is correct--- would rather be in front than behind all this mess
:?
And all these years, I've looked up to you as the voice of reason on these boards! :-D
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There is a "Reason" :? we call this a "SICK ADDICTION" ----pure and simple less frontal area :cheers:
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:cheers: Better view also1 Go Sparky, Go! Crow.
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SPARKY --
The FWD Too 2 Radical liner sounds different and unique.
Now, I want to say up front I have zero salt experience but I wanted to give you a heads-up about a concern I have. You may already be aware of this concept but I'll throw it out there anyway. I haven't met you yet, but I like your posts.
You said you will sit in front of the axle on the new liner. I don't know the design of your current lakester but I think you sit in a position much farther back or even near the rear axle. The new FWD liner driver position, front of the axle, will give you less "visual steering indicators." Meaning, I don't know if there is a salts flats term for this, you will have less information of what the rear axle is doing, hence your steering reactions.
When the NHRA fuel dragsters switched designs somewhere in the 80's from driver behind the rear axle to driver in front of the motor and in the "center" of the wheelbase most drivers had steering problems, at first.
For example, sitting behind the axle they saw the front wheels drift 10 inches to one side, (the visual indicators) the driver corrected by steering 10 inches to the left to bring the rear axle in line with the front. But, if the driver sits in the middle of the car and it moves 10 inches, the driver only gets "5 inches" of visual information now. No? But the rear was still out by 10 inches.
I'm am stumbling in my lack of salt racing in explaining this concept. What I am saying is in a driver position forward of the front axle, the driver, you, will get even less of what I call those visual indicators of how far "out" the rear end is.
I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm giving a heads-up that when you switch from a rear driving position to a front of the axle position, (at your speeds) the driver can't naturally react to the steering like in the old car. You have to relearn the steering reaction from the new position.
Thanks for hanging in there for my explanation. I'm going to give you the credit that you already know about this concept. I just wanted to be cautious.
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That is correct--- would rather be in front than behind all this mess
Wow, all I can say is wow.
Hotrod has a point , thing is I doubt Bill hasn't thought about it and it's a gutsy plan. Gonna have to unlearn a lot of the drive by the seat of the pants stuff........but it makes it easy to get the CoG forward and weight over the driving wheels at the same time.........
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I agree 100% with hotrodV8, the tail will wag the dog with out you knowing it. Give it a lot of thought Wm.
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I sit with my feet almost touching the frt axel my 209" wb Lakester I am going to be on the other side and it will be driving my head will actually be 2" higher than it is now an I will be sitting up slightly straighter.
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WOW :-D
Good luck my brother keep us posted
Robbie
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its been done before with great success--------you guys need to give sparky some credit ---go for it willie buchta
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thanks for the support and concerns we will work hard to be safe first fast later
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Sparky -
I don't know what kind of street vehicles you've driven in the past, but here's a thought, for what it's worth.
You can get used to the sensation of driving in front of the front axle if you buy yourself or borrow an old Ford snub-nose Econoline, or even a Volkswagen Van. It's a very peculiar sensation driving in front of the axle, and such a vehicle might help acclimate you to it.
I had a good friend in High School who had a '63 Econoline. We rebuilt the front end, and the steering was solid, but even with everything in place and working properly, it was very disorienting trying to keep it between the fence posts. That said, driving that van made me a better driver, and much more aware of how a car feels up front.
I'm not doubting your driving chops, and I'm certain you'll do it safely. I expect this 2 II Ratical machine will probably force you to buy yet another hat rack, but until you get it on the lake bed, any similar operating experience might prove helpful.
We worry because we like you.
Chris :cheers:
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What most of you miss is not only has this been done before (John Cobb 403 mph, Art Arfons anteater 355 mph & his Cyclopes, some would even say Andy Green @ 763 mph). I would also mention that 660' goes by in 1.5 seconds @ 300 mph, even quicker when going faster.. That's 1/8 mile. And to try to bring the point further, one particular lakester had the driver as far back as he could be (behind the rear wheels) when he crash at over 320 mph. In video footage of the event showed that crash happened so fast that the driver had absolutely no ability to correct for it. It happend in less the three frames of the video tape.
Go for it Sparky, it makes no difference where you sit IMHO.
But it does make a difference in how fast you might go...... 8-)
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I think you will be okay with the drivers position. Seems to work for Speed Demon. You will be fine.
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It has the same feeling as rear steer so I was told.
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I think you will be okay with the drivers position. Seems to work for Speed Demon. You will be fine.
The driver in the speed demon sets behind the front wheels not in front.
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I think the problem they see in drag cars in keeping the rear tires in the groove. Go out of the groove, and the tires spin. Lining up a long wheelbase when sitting near the rear tires is easy. Not so easy if you are sitting in the middle of a long wheelbase.
For LSR, no matter where you sit, you are looking far off in the distance if you're trying to go straight, so I'd be surprised if it had much effect. A different perception point might make you start out a bit off-center, but there is no groove to fall out of. Dunno.
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hijack abort :-P
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Sparky,
Not trying to hijack your thread but here is a neat video of John Cobb's car showing how far up front he did sit, for anyone who has not seen it. I believe this car was 4 wheel drive.
Tom G.
http://www.racingcampbells.com/content/video/railton_low.wmv
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I'd like to put in my 2 cents as I have a front wheel drive and I am just now getting used to driving it. Last Oct. at WF I figured out that I was trying to make corrections too quickly and that I was leading to my serpentening down the course. It gives the powers that be some concern when you are going from one side to the other. I read about Garlets having trouble with his first rear engine car and how he slowed his steering down about 50% and the rest is history. I determined that I would put about half of the steering into a correction as my brain said too and wait an extra second to see where I was on the course. This corrected the problem almost entirely. Now I am going to remount my steering arms about an inch closer to the center line of my steering gear to mechanically slow my steering even further. It is so easy to over steer a car that is making a mile in about 13 seconds. I also think I put a little to much caster in my car and would run about 4% max if I had it to do over. I think your concept sounds fast and that is what matters!!! Front where you sit the widest, narrowing to a point at the rear like a wing. Sweet!
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I'm lookin forward to following the progress on this, Sparky. It sounds like a very kool and somewhat unorthodox setup.
Remember: I knew ya back when you were just one of the guys camped at the Bend. And look what happened. :)
I think yer gonna do fine...do ya have any visual concept stuff to share with us? Like something drawn on the back of a napkin from yer favorite watering hole?
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Guys, dont worry about hijacking--its all good :cheers:
I have driven the 60 vans, cab over trucks, bale wagons where you sit way out front and flew countless hours in sailplanes in a very similiar position, and thousands of landings in a taildragger as a tow pilot---
R-GO I can appreciate what you have learned. RATICAL before the new hubs, hunted the entire run!!!!!!! I would not have even thought of letting someone else drive it the way it use to drive. T
The 2 II will have a Very slow ratio and very little wheel movement will not be able to tow or push---- will haul everywhere
I think McRat is correct you are looking 1 mile down the track and you are gently heardingthe cat down the track!!!!
Glen I had a C 185 for a number of years---it was rear steer. I had the distinct impression that it tried me on with each landing just to
see if I was paying attention.
I try to be a reading & thinking man who is a street racer at heart--AS someone from down under said it is about minimizing ALL drag and Maximizing tractive effort.
I want to try to go fast by addapting simel things, parts and ideas that are commonly availabe and have a lot of fun doing it !!!!!!!!!!
AS someone from down under said it is about minimizing ALL drag and Maximizing tractive effort.
Guys again take this thread where ever you want to ---for the odds of you seeing some of the outstanding leading edge engineering as seen on other builds is VERY VERY slim. :cheers: :cheers:
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Actually I looking forward to seeing some of that deceptive looking trailing edge engineering and technology that makes the big boys say "shit, how the hell did he go that fast with that thing" .... again
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SS 1 we will just have to wait and see 8-)
in the mean time Is there any one who has some low teen deg. spreadport BBC heads that would like to trade for fast ride in an ugly car????? :-D
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sorta
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I like it Sparky!!! :cheers:
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as I recall Garlits said when he was developing the rear top fuel engine car , he learned the steering had to be slowed down for proper control.
So , the faster you travel , the less steering input to bring the car back in line safely?
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Toadly Ossum!! That view of the frontal area looks fast already! :)
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as I recall Garlits said when he was developing the rear top fuel engine car , he learned the steering had to be slowed down for proper control.
So , the faster you travel , the less steering input to bring the car back in line safely?
in case that wasn't sarcasm...
If you give a vehicle the same steering input at 60 as you do at 120, the car jumps twice as far and upsets it twice as much. The faster you go the lighter you hold the wheel. You know you're doing it right when you aren't even thinking about it, and would swear you just held the wheel straight up the whole time. You'll look at a video and realize you were actually steering. If you have a death grip on the wheel, you are going to have problems.
IMO.
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Looks fast standing still Sparky! :-D
Pete
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I’m no expert at this; however, I’ve learned to never underestimate tenacity (stubbornness).
Prior success is the best indicator of future success, so I think Sparky will get it done and we’ll be amazed how simple he’ll make it.
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Don't forget,
two of the fastest wheeldriven cars on earth was built with a so seat position - Cobb's Railton and the Bluebird CN7 from Donald Campbell. the Bluebird had a final speed of 445 mph when he left the fourth mile......Cobb and Campbell proved that it is possible. :wink:
The other thing is the rear end - why taking care about moving rear end - get the rear end nailed on the point by aerodynamic shape and the problem isn't a problem anymore...... :cheers:
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Railton Image without body work showing seating position in front.
http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/images/land_speed_record/railton_mobil_special.jpg (http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/images/land_speed_record/railton_mobil_special.jpg)
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Pork Pie and and I were visiting in 08 and I told him I wanted to build a simple car that could take advantage of the skin from tanks that I HAD, this is what we came up with. Now it remains to be seen if we can make something "we all" might recognize when we get through with it here in my back yard ---we hope to have web site where we can post photos to soon.
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This is sorta what it may look like
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hay Sparky you got room for one more engine in there :roll:
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Good point...ya might be able to make it a 3-motored liner. Are ya goin after Nearburg's records? AA/GS looks "doable."
Go get 'em, man!
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Hey Sparky,
What are you using for solid design software?
Also PM sent.
Rob
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no we dont---that mid bay will be full of STUFF like two heat exchangers, an oil tank for both engs, a fuel tank for both, a plenum area for each eng. and maybe water for each eng.
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Bloc Cuadriculado ---ie a 1/4" sq in scale planning pad that I switch back and forth with a sq. representing 2" and 6" and the shop floor, the lakester, and varius components, with a 30 ft tape. a st. edge and a compass.
Pork Pie is the one playing with his computer that makes us look like we may know what we are doing. Thank you PP.
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Sparky,
Thats a neat looking set up.
Thanks for sharing.
Robbie
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Robbie,,
Them guys Pork Pie and Sparkey sure have them fancy design tools,,, Makes our plain white paper, a protractor and a #2 pencil look old fashioned, LOL
Sparky, PP keep us updated,,,, looks pretty cool
Charles
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no we dont---that mid bay will be full of STUFF like two heat excangers, a oil tank for both engs, a fuel tank for both, a plenum area for each eng. and maybe water for each eng.
Both engines sharing a common oil source? Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but if one were to go, don't you risk contaminating both with shavings?
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I run an Oberg on the return line now and another one in the feed line now and conventional one before it goes into the block.
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Cajun Kid,
I use the same level of technology as you do, it's called "Pencil CAD" been doing it for over 40 years. I have a drafting board next to the area that I build stuff in and when I get stuck I get out the scale, T square and no. 2 and work it out. If you recognize the name Adrian Newley, the designer of the Red Bull Formula One car, you will be happy to know that he still uses a pencil and drafting board and leaves the CAD work to the "bit" heads.
Rex
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Sparky,
I see you have a signature Pork Pie vertical stabilizer! :-) Looks slick. Have fun building it.
Rex,
Concrete floor, soap stone and full size scale in use here.
Harvey
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Pork Pie is the one playing with his computer that makes us look like we may know what we are doing. Thank you PP.
I don't know what I'm doing :-D this d...n computer shows all this picture and I simple make a copy for Sparky..... :roll:
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Since you're in the design concept phase of this build, do you mind if I throw out a thought that's been bouncing around in the empty space between my ears for a while? Please keep in mind that I'm a bike guy with very little LSR experience even in that, and feel free to discard anything I may come up with, like I said, it's just a thought. :-)
Side wind forces are always a concern, since it is impossible to plan on getting a run with absolutely no wind. Side winds have the effect of creating uneven aerodynamic forces side to side and destabilizing the vehicle, and possibly adding drag as well. Aircraft deal with this problem by "crabbing" in flight, keeping the air flow straight down the fuselage and the forces balanced.
Why shouldn't streamliners be designed to do the same thing? If the rear suspension was designed like the front, with provisions for the wheels to have a small amount of self steering, it would allow the car to "weather vane" and self adjust to small side winds that are encountered during the run.
Of course, for this to work and be safe, the caster, camber, and toe would all need to be carefully thought out, and the total steering angle would have to be very limited, with the action heavily damped to prevent it from going into a tail wagging situation. The actual steering would still be done by the front wheels, and no doubt the driver would experience a different sensation with the rear of the vehicle moving off center, but probably not any worse than that of driving a car down a gravel road.
A 4MPH side wind at 200MPH would be a 2% ratio, and it would get smaller as speed increased. Allowing the rear of the vehicle to "weather vane" just a couple of degrees to either side would seem to be enough to maintain airflow straight down the body, which would eliminate side loading on the tires and potentially make the vehicle more stable, if my idea is any where close to right.
So, what do you folks think? Am I completely full of crap here? :cheers:
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GM had QuadraSteer at higher speeds in the trailering mode, the frt. and rear tires steered the same direction. When you made a lane change you moved over into the next lane as opposed to driving over into the next lane.
I wish to keep this build as Simple (except for EFI and data logging) with as many production automotive components as possible. This project will be beingeneered :cheers: :cheers: and is sponsered by TKI.
I was a truck salesman, I am helped by my next door neighbor Andy a Chef, Joey a coffee roaster, Dave a retiree, and Pork Pie in Germany, and Terry Mouer a machinist in Hebron In. [ who made the hubs for the Lakester that solved the scrub radius problem we had]. WE have a dire need for a TECH guy---anyone know of a computer literate gearhead that lives in Phoenix that might be subject to SALT FEVER????
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Sparky --
Are you planning to hook the motors together, electronically or physically?
Stan
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WE have a dire need for a TECH guy---anyone know of a computer literate gearhead that lives in Phoenix that might be subject to SALT FEVER????
Might want to elaborate on this, and many computer issues could be dealt with no matter where in the world somebody is.
Are you looking for a CAD person or an IT type person? I'm not IT, and that is a weak point of mine. I do start AutoCAD classes in January, might be fun to work on something real once I get back up to speed (I've done a little bit of real drafting and computer drafting before)
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The motors will be be connected at the Salt only by the tires-- will share a common oil tank & fuel tank, maybe a common fuel pump. We will be running dissimilar displacements and trannies, two different ECUs.
stockjohn thanks for the offer.-----We need the tech guy to live in Phoenix area so HE OR SHE can install,wire and keep up withthe the TECH SYSTEMS and be able to go to the race and down load every thing..
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Sparky,
http://www.motorsportsinnovations.com/wb_aux_box.htm
We use the DL-32 data logger its simple to wire and not to bad to download info to the computer. I don't know personally but have been told the FAST EFI stuff is good too.
If you can wire a MSD the data logger stuff should be no problem.
Robbie
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So, what do you folks think? Am I completely full of crap here? :cheers:
Whizz, Yep :cheers:
Airplanes fly crabbed to help keep the wings level without fighting the controls, there is no traction to contend with in the air.... many get very straight when the trucks hit the ground, others deal with it in complicated ways, but that is a story on its own. Any movement of the axles steers the vehicle.... the only thing you want steering the vehicle is the driver, and only where the driver wants it to go. It can't weather vane... the drive wheels, front and/or would input unwanted steering if it did.
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"Am I completely full of crap?"
WhizzbangK - -
No crap, just full of good suggestions. The Boeing B-52 Stratofortress bicycle landing gear had the ability to pivot as much as 20 degrees during crosswind landings. It worked OK and it is still flying today.
However, the idea is moot because Sparky felt he didn't want things to get that complicated. I think he made a good choice.
Sparky, I'm intrigued on hearing how the car is put together. Remember to have fun everyday of the build.
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"dissimilar displacements and trannies."
SPARKY - -
Since you will be running dissimilar engine displacements, can you elaborate on the different sizes (what and why)?
Plus, will you be shifting the two transmissions at the same time?
And sorry for my lack of salt experience, what are ECUs?
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ECU - Engine Control Unit, aka ECM, PCM.
Engine control computers: The scurge of racing with late model engines.
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ECU - Engine Control Unit, aka ECM, PCM.
Engine control computers: The scurge of racing with late model engines.
:?
That's how GM gets the big HP numbers. Also how, at Hot Rod Drag Week, a (nominally) '70's Pinto 4-banger covered ALL of the small blocks by more than a second and ALL NA big blocks by nearly a second and got on the cover of Hot Rod with the headline "1000 HP & 25 MPG".
Electronic Engine Control is where you get your modern horsepower.
YMMV, especially if you run 1930's design carbs on your 4-banger. :cheers:
We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Mike
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HR one of the engs is made out of reconditioned parts that I had from earlier blown engs. The ECU is an earlier non data recording one
I have a PG/GV/GV and a AT 400/GV . into 1 st gear at same time 2 shift levers 2 throttles one for each foot.
509 FRT 30" 565 Rear 25" Speed of shift
2.14 2.14 MPH
Shifts AT400 PG & 2 gear vendors
1 2.48 1.76 25
2 1.48 135
3 1.00 150
4 1.00 225
5 od .78 280
6 .78 od 335
7 od/od .61 360
changed due to packaging and sequencing issues now both trans units will now be similiar in length
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Engine control computers: The scurge of racing with late model engines.
...Electronic Engine Control is where you get your modern horsepower...
When they are good, they are very, very good, when they are bad they are most naughty... :-P Our truck uses the same ECM as the Vette.
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1 st gear at same time 2 shift levers 2 throttles one for each foot.
Fantastic!, it's gonna be like playing a pipe organ Sparky...I trust that at any spare moment you are currently rubbing your head and patting your belly?
In all seriousness, I'm loving this thread. A proven back yarder with big records acts on some gut instincts and comes up with a left field design with the bare essentials and a close eye on the basic principles....Low drag and a different approach to getting power down
I'm guessing there's a few pundits adopting a wait and see before they comment.....because it doesn't fit what everybody else is doing, and it doesn't look like the current fastest car....
What I want to know is where do I put my money on it?
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509 FRT 565 Rear
2.14 2.14
Shifts PG AT 400
1 1.76 2.48
2 1.48
3 1.00
4 1.00
5 .78 .78
both Gear Vendors
FDR 1.67 1.67
:-o
Should be able to pull right through any holes in your power bands. This is ingenious.
Fantastic!, it's gonna be like playing a pipe organ Sparky...
The big difference is that you can TUNE a big block, although it could well LOOK like a pipe organ under the skin. Think about how this is going to sound once the gears start changing. When the harmony stops, and both engines are singing in unison, that's when it'll start getting serious.
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This sounds like one of those builds that when all the quirks are out of it, I'm gonna be watching go past Land's End during the Shootout!! :cheers: Bring it on, Baby!!! :-D I can hoot, holler, dance around, jump up and down in front of spectators with the best of 'em!!! Go Get 'Em Sparky!!!
(I love when the roar jiggles my belly!)
Lynda
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L Qubed :? or L to the 3rd power 8-) ---ie ---Lovely Luscious Linda :-D you are 2, II, much love ya darlin
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1 st gear at same time 2 shift levers 2 throttles one for each foot.
In all seriousness, I'm loving this thread. A proven back yarder with big records acts on some gut instincts and comes up with a left field design with the bare essentials and a close eye on the basic principles....Low drag and a different approach to getting power down
I'm guessing there's a few pundits adopting a wait and see before they comment.....because it doesn't fit what everybody else is doing, and it doesn't look like the current fastest car....
What I want to know is where do I put my money on it?
SPARKY --
From what you are telling us about the trannies, I'm overwhelmed. I think Dr. Goggles said it best above.
I do have some double engine experience and I'll be the second one to put some money down to back up Dr. Goggles. I like it cause it is different and should be big fast.
Is there any history of Tech dealing with double throttles?
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This sounds like one of those builds that when all the quirks are out of it,
Guys and Gals
we have a "JOURNEY" ahead of us---so far we have taken 1 or 2 small, small steps--- I have enjoyed the NOODLE time and am enjoying this and will enjoy the BUILD> only TRACK time will tell if I am a dunce or a fast scholar of lsr :-D
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Marlo's project 550 has duel throttles.
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Marlo's project 550 has duel throttles.
with 4 cables on one pedal....
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Stainless, do you know why 4 cables with two engines? Just curious.
Jim
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Sparky,
It will be with great intersest and anticipation that I will be following your streamliner build. As much as I admire and am boggled at the sophistication of "Project 550" liner I can't even begin to think about the development time it will take to get it running, I am expecting a much simpler and straight forward device from you. One that will have plenty of proven power, one built with a certain cost level limit, and a car that will probably be much more representitive of what we "normal" people could build. I do know a couple of things about your project even before you lay the first tube: 1. It will be fast. 2.You will have fun!!! and so will we.
Rex
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Rex I think that you may be considered suspect by some of lumping me in with the NORMAL people :cheers:
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No, Sparky, that's the beauty of the statement -- you get to make up your own personal definition of "normal". If you want it to be just as you are -- then all the rest of the world is abnormal and you're the only one with your head on straight.
Merry Christmas.
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Stainless, do you know why 4 cables with two engines? Just curious.
Jim
I`m not Bob (I`ve never even played him on T.V.) But, I wonder if the two "extra" cables are used to manually close the throttles.
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Wow, how rewarding to be, "be normal", of course it was after Jon' the afore mentioned "self check" :-D
it is for sure that other than inspriation the closest that Hume will will be to 2 II will be if my build and their build thread happen to fall on the same page in the build diaries!!!
The actual builing does give one a great sense of accomplishment as the various parts are NOODLED out and turned to Metal!!!!
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as I recall Garlits said when he was developing the rear top fuel engine car , he learned the steering had to be slowed down for proper control.
So , the faster you travel , the less steering input to bring the car back in line safely?
in case that wasn't sarcasm...
If you give a vehicle the same steering input at 60 as you do at 120, the car jumps twice as far and upsets it twice as much. The faster you go the lighter you hold the wheel. You know you're doing it right when you aren't even thinking about it, and would swear you just held the wheel straight up the whole time. You'll look at a video and realize you were actually steering. If you have a death grip on the wheel, you are going to have problems.
IMO.
no sarcasm. Fastest I have traveled is 150mph on two wheels ( motorcycle) in 1979 on asphalt.
At Bonneville , I am a spectator
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Sparky,
Define "normal" as related to someone that builds a car to run at Bonneville. It is someone that invest to much money, to much time, to much effort all to run a "car" that can only go straight and only runs once or twice a year and calls it fun. I see that as normal for Bonneville guys and I think you fit pretty well!
Rex
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Touche Rex! :-o that just about gets it!!!!! :-D :cheers:
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How can coach potatoes, which are watching soap opera's, call himself normal and us crazy - may be we are normal and the other never learned to live...... :roll:
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This is the Rats Nest befor the build starts. :-o
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Now that looks like a shop -- although it's got lots more room by our standards.
Stan
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I have had some ask about more details on 2 pass "The Radiator in a Box" heat exchanger
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The only thing that is not shown is the iternal dividers and the external fittings that control the external coolant that will be pumped through the box in the opposite direction of the eng coolant and the two pumps that let me empty the box so that when I warm up the eng only the eng coolant is being warmed. I hope this helps
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Sparky, we have done something similar with our radiator. I'll see if I can find some pics and I will post them later. I think you have some very good ideas right here. :cheers:
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Thanks, I am sure it isn't original---but it sure lets me control the eng temp better!!!
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The gear ratio - engine plan is interesting. Sparky and I have discussed gear ratios of various transmittins, he had interesting thoughts on them as folks now know here.
it's gonna be fun with the new build and testing
what was that one phrase muttered ? " How did Sparky get that car over 3?" ( posted tongue in cheek) :-D
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Sparky,
I like your heat exchanger idea and have been planning to do the same for the small lakester I am designing right now. It sure beats building a big tank that has to be able to run at 15-20 psi. What are the dimensions of your double pass radiator?
Rex
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Rex outside of tank to outside 19" W x 22" L hose fitting sticks out 2.5" from tank end. I had an extra charge for having the hose fittings put into what would normally be the side of the tank.
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Rex, Check out the AFCO scirocco style double pass radiator. My outer box/tank is 14" x 23" x 5". You can get it in left or right side inlet/outlet. About $220 from Summit. Works in the streamliner great.
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Sparky and Doug,
I am planning to run Suzuki GSXR motors so my cooling requirements will not be even close to what you need running big engines. My thinking is that doing the cooling this way the actual "radiator", because it is doing water to water heat exchanging, probably doesn't need to be very large. I need to dig out some of my heat exchanger info and do some sizing.
Rex
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I did water to water because I didn't want any air getting into the car except what it takes to run the motor.
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How can coach potatoes, which are watching soap opera's, call himself normal and us crazy - may be we are normal and the other never learned to live...... :roll:
Great observation, Pork. All I know about "normal" is that it's a setting on my washing machine. Other than that, I'm doing my best to enjoy my insanity and not suffer from it. :)
I thought I was on the page with Sparky until the two dissimilar motor/tranny thing came up...not to mention a throttle for each foot. It gives me a headache just thinking about it. I dunno about you, Sparky, but after driving vehicles with manual transmissions, my ingrained thinking pattern tells me to push the left pedal to the floor to shift and especially if anything out of the ordinary happens...like a spin. I hope you never get the chance to test this out. I can't even picture driving that way...but isn't that the way tracked vehicles work?
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Triet's project 550 has a single throttle that is split down the middle so Les can control the engines by rocking his foot. It's really neat. Les designed and machined it as well as other driver controls and injectors. This car has to be seen to believe the construction and detail of a master builder Jim Hume.
I am not putting down Sparky's ideas as that's what LSR is all about to build something to go fast.
Everyone has different thoughts and what works for one may not for others.
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:-D Ray, read my by-line. "The Earth is an intergalactic insane asylum." That shows me where us lsr people stand! Crow.
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:-D Ray, read my by-line. "The Earth is an intergalactic insane asylum." That shows me where us lsr people stand! Crow.
Crow -
In this case, allow me to take the liberty of adding a few words to your by-line:
The Earth is an intergalactic insane asylum with two dynamic dissimilar drive trains orbiting it, each orbit controlled by a independent gravitational foot pedal. LOL :-D
SPARKY - Remember to enjoy each day of the build. :cheers:
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:-D Ray, read my by-line. "The Earth is an intergalactic insane asylum." That shows me where us lsr people stand! Crow.
Crow -
In this case, allow me to take the liberty of adding a few words to your by-line:
The Earth is an intergalactic insane asylum with two dynamic dissimilar drive trains orbiting it, each orbit controlled by a independent gravitational foot pedal. LOL :-D
SPARKY - Remember to enjoy each day of the build. :cheers:
Now that is the most accurate description for LSR I've heard in a long time!!
Lynda
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Sparky....You have way too much free space in that shop :cheers:J.B
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I grew up in TX and am use to a lot of space to roam around---what can I say!!!!!! :cheers:
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This post will attempt to show what we are trying to accomplish with this TRANS/tire "Miss Match"
As MM said earlier, I am trying to keep my 2 engines from falling in to their flat spot at the same time--caused by not having a 6 speed trans with something like 1.90 1.48 1.15 .90 .70 .56
someday someone will do the the new GM 6L90E similiar---hopefully most of the ratios have been done---just not in the same trans
2.14 Gear set both ends
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Went to LA for the SCTA banquet. Picked up my rebuilt original 509 motor from Mike La Fevers at Mitech and had a great lunch visit. Went by Taylor Made Wheels to visit with Taylor and Chuck about new wheels. After talking to Tom in M&H' Tech assistance I have decided to order 5 on 5 18x6 wheels and run 30s on the front and 26s on the rear. Hopefully we know the final configuration soon. After having Lee Kennedy review my cage drawings at the banquet. I now feel comfortable with starting the cage.
We will need to rough the cage to see if we can get in and out of this thing and keep it inside the design parameters of the outer skin.
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I gotta see this one! Folks think OUR design is nuts, so if you are on the salt at the same time you'll draw all the attention and we can slip by. :-D
I really like the ideas you're putting out there. I forsee a lot of dialing in time, but hey .... Its a journey!
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We are hoping we learned enough with the first car we dont attract quite so much attention as we did with RATICAL :-D
We have the 4x8 build table done and 2 , 1/2 plywood tires that we will be building the cockpit on.
Will be off to buy several sticks of 2 x .120 dom for the upper and lower tubes.
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This weekend at the Gear Grinders Banquet I had a great vist with lots of fellow GGs. Jim Miller was there and got to send lots of time asking about our new cage. We feel confident enough with what he and Lee are looking for to start bending and tacking to see if we can get in and out. If he told me once he told me 10 times---PUT EVERTING ON INCLUDING THE HANS !!!!!!!!!!!!
Boy oh boy!! Being an Aggie we bent the first tube --- then read the instruction manual! Tommorrow for lunch we will be having BOOKS, scalloped potatos, and ham. lol
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First tube will form the back of the drivers area, and the back tube of the helment cage. The cross tube will form the seat back there will be another as soon as we are satisfied that this is what we want. From the center of the frtaxe the frt will extend 96" the outside of the hoop is 25" wide the inside will be 21" the top of the cage will be 34" AGL. The lower tube is 36" outside this is what we are trying to package.
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Sparky, just a couple of things.
First, I'm hoping that the tube running into the centre of the cross tube is just a temporary item. I never like something like that pointing straight at the driver's back. I'd rather see supports at both ends of the cross tube.
Second, before you start welding, clean the end of each tube where it's prepared to saddle the other tube. Also clean the area on the second tube where the first tube is being welded to. A wire brush mounted on a bench grinder works really well. If there's any oil on the tubing it's worth removing it with lacquer thinner or acetone.
The quality of the welds will be much better. It's worth the extra effort when your life depends on those welds.
Pete
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Whatever you clean the inside of the tubing with ,I would strongly recommend washing the inside with detergent and rinsing with water.Warming the tube afterward will dry it and if you rinse with a little soap left in the the rinse water it will help keep it from rusting right away. The fumes aren't so dangerous as petroleum products when you weld. If you drill holes near the end of the tubes you will have an easier time closing up the end of the weld. I use a #55 drill and close the tube up with small drive rivets. Some people oil the inside of the tubes with a special oil/varnish mixture if they don't expect to weld on it again. Have fun.
Harv
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Thanks guys!!!!!!!The seat back will have 2 tubes like the single diagonal one we have for spacing and trying the clearance for the helmet and such. we plan on completely having this thing tacked and take to El M to be inspected. THEN taking it completely apart, beveling, cleaning then welding. We have a least one gas vent hole drilled under each tube joint now.
PS. The dom we are using is 6 years old and has some rust on it. We are spraying with WD 40 and buffing with a paint scratch pad---also we are using some lithium poly sulfate wheel brg grease trying to protect the follower dies---nasty---all because we can save $1.63 per linear ft.---so much for Scottish heritage
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Perfect Sparky! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Pete
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Sparky,
I found some Gas Pedals for you.
Tom G.
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jeez,no brake pedal in the middle? ---how much :?
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Wow!
A left and a right -- never seen that before.
Stan
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Stan its front and back :roll:
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Mike --
It's defeat!
I mean it's da feet!
Stan
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Wow!
A left and a right -- never seen that before.
Stan
Stan,
They made them for flat bottom boat racing to control the angle of the cavitation plate coming off the corners. Oh the sound of a blown Chrysler K boat at Long Beach marine stadium.
Jim
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Sparky,
They are for sale, if you want I can find out how much.
Tom G.
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Finally back in the shop! :-) I apologise for the photos---I couldn't find my camera
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when installed the nose tilts back and the angle will be around 45 deg
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WE can get in and OUT :-D We are going to not do any more than this untill we ge the steering worked out then we will put all the other tubes and plates in.
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WE can get in and OUT :-D We are going to not do any more than this untill we ge the steering worked out then we will put all the other tubes and plates in.
This picture kid of reminded me of when my 1st son was born! :-o Looking good! glad to see so progress.
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Sparky,
Put on the rest of your gear. Don't forget you will need to add some room for padding, Hans, boots, belts, etc.
Looking good, keep the pictures coming..
Gary
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We have been in with everthing on---
waiting to get a preliminary approval from Tech guys they were to discuss it this weekend at
EL M----
then we will put in all of the diag braces and flat plate for the 2" of flat foam that was recomended, not required. That would give me foam above and to each side between the bars...
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Wait, wait, wait,---on wheels, on hubs, on frt & rear axles..
Sometimes, I almost wish that I was running something like a Mod. PU or something that was more bolt together---notice that I said SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!
I feel that we have to have the driver cage concept approved and the frt axle done. We will then build the frt axle mounting that ties the front driver cage and the rear 2 eng frames together----so that we can BEINGE-g-neer :cheers: :cheers:
the steering---that will be the biggest hurdle in my mind---the rest will be similiar to stuff to that we have done.
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is it done yet?
:-D
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Sometimes, I almost wish that I was running something like a Mod. PU or something that was more bolt together---notice that I said SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!
The grass is always greener . . .
I find myself thinking, as I work on the Midget, "Geez, if I could only just lose this production-based crap and start with a build table and some tubes".
Tell you what, Sparky, I'll work on your car for a week, and you can work on mine.
I suspect we'll both be wanting to go home by Tuesday afternoon! :-D
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Sometimes, I almost wish that I was running something like a Mod. PU or something that was more bolt together---notice that I said SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!
The grass is always greener . . .
I find myself thinking, as I work on the Midget, "Geez, if I could only just lose this production-based crap and start with a build table and some tubes".
Tell you what, Sparky, I'll work on your car for a week, and you can work on mine.
I suspect we'll both be wanting to go home by Tuesday afternoon! :-D
Gosh guys,,, I sure know how you feel !!!
But when the builds are done and the cars drive off under there own power that is when it will be hard to wipe the big grins off our faces.
Charles
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I might feel capable of making brackets for your 2 cars---might is the operative word!!!!
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Sometimes, I almost wish that I was running something like a Mod. PU or something that was more bolt together---notice that I said SOMETIMES!!!!!!!!
The grass is always greener . . .
I find myself thinking, as I work on the Midget, "Geez, if I could only just lose this production-based crap and start with a build table and some tubes".
Tell you what, Sparky, I'll work on your car for a week, and you can work on mine.
I suspect we'll both be wanting to go home by Tuesday afternoon! :-D
Therein lies another of the great intangibles of Landspeed racing.......i just sent a PM to someone over there who's got a Stude... we can barely talk the same language but we "get" it....sure the grass is always greener, but...................
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We got a phone call from Terry Mouer today the front hubs and stub axles are actually being worked on we may have axles by SW. We had a discussion about castellated nuts. I have seen some somewhere that allow for very small adjustments;
What have others used for this---Timken wants very close tolerance on lash and preload.
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Sparky,
Preloading tapered roller bearings (Timkens)is a very touchy proceedure and it is better to be to lose than to tight. The best way (in my opinion) is to calculate or measure the distance between the inter bearing races and then make a solid spacer to fit between the two races that is that dimension, this allows you to tighten the spindle nut as tight as you can make it because the bearing spacing (pre-load) is set by the spacer. I usually come up with the exact dimension then make the spacer in two parts one about 1/4 inch short and then make a series of .245 to .255 thick spacers in .0005 increments and then fit the bearings and spacers till the pre-load is correct when I really torque down the spindle nut. Doing it this way make is easy to always have the correct bearing spacing every time you take the hub off.
If you are having your spindles made have the threads for the nut made to the bearing manufacture's specifications for bearing lock nuts, this will require that there be a keyway thru the threads but then you can use the standard bearing lock nut and washer which give you an almost infinate amount of position adjustments for the lock nut.
Rex
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Rex, I think I understood that way they are being made is that the hub is being made to bolt to the outer stock GM 4X4 steering knuckle. The hub will capture the inner and outer races in such a way that we will have to use temp. diffs. to remove them and the stub axle will have an inner shoulder that we tighten against to achieve the almost zero/zero I am sure there will be little torque. As we turn the wheels any in and out movement will be transferred across the u joint to the inner axle shaft which will be able to move slightly in and out of the carrier.
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Yeah!! We picked up the 6 18" Taylor Made wheels, had a nice visit with Taylor and Chuck, yesterday and dropped them and 3 M/T 30" for the front and ordered 3 M/T 26"s for the rear. Sorry did not have the camera with me for picts. Called Terry at Mouer Machiene Co---May soon have the front hubs and outer stub axles-- then to Texas and try to finish the axles
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Jeez you have to sign a 5-6 page relaease to get M/Ts now- :-o --wow
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Sparky, can you still get the 30in 600MPR tire from M/T?
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Yes they said that they have a 3 sizes in stock
BONNEVILLE TIRE SPECIFICATIONS
Size 24.5x7.50-16 26.5x9.0-18 30.0x9.0-18
Part No. 033060 033057 033011
Approx Weight 13 Lbs. 16 Lbs 19 Lbs.
Measuring Rim 5.5x16 6.5x18 6.5x18
Rim Width Range 4.0-5.5 6.0-7.0 5.0-7.0
Tread Width * 5.2" 7.0" 6.7"
O.D. (Static) * 24.2" 26.1" 29.4"
Section Width * 7.5" 9.0" 9.0"
Est. Speed Rating 375 + MPH 475 + MPH 590 + MPH
Price $720.00 $740.00 $760.00
*APPROXIMATE INFLATED DIMENSIONS @ 90 PSI
NOTE: ALL TIRES ARE TUBELESS
ABOVE SPECS PER M/T ENGINEERING: REVISED AS OF JULY 29, 2003
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I copied the price and spec copy of the reply
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We got an education on mounting LSR tires yesterday---tried to pick up IIs new wheels an tires yesterday ---trying to mount 26" on 6" rims was quite the experience during 3 hours we got air in one of the 3. I can't even imagine trying to this at a shop that is not familiar with these tires.
Nate is going to have to use the HEAVY GOOP process---get them mounted sets them set for a week break them down clean them up them remount.. wow