Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: Racerboy on April 04, 2009, 12:54:16 AM
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I am think about using a MSD traction control unit and was wondering if people are using any TC and if it works and is it worth the money
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I am think about using a MSD traction control unit and was wondering if people are using any TC and if it works and is it worth the money
We have the traction control capability but have not hooked it up yet. not sure we will as car hooks good ''till we hit marbles at El Mirage'' it might help but don't know. We can limit how fast the engine revs with our MSD also.
Not applied either. Ive always thought of traction control as a safety device also,[spinning rear tires can cause oversteer]. I have always wondered how much traction control would help a poor hooking car or bike, would it limit the
power then have to limit again because of wheelspin? Seems like better than nothing if you have problems and it could be the future. We will someday like to try it but have enough to sort out now.
Good luck JL222 :cheers:
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If there is a car that should try traction control it is the Camero that jl222 and his group run! It is the difinition of "traction limited" especially at Elmo.
Hope to be there in May to watch them.
Rex
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Thanks for the advice. Maybe if you can make it to Madera tomorrow night (our opening night for the super modifies) we can talk more about it.
Thanks Ken Pike
Super modified # 7
AJ Russell Driver
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Thanks for the advice. Maybe if you can make it to Madera tomorrow night (our opening night for the super modifies) we can talk more about it.
Thanks Ken Pike
Super modified # 7
AJ Russell Driver
Wish I new earlier, I've got a free invite at that track. :cheers: Rex the car doesn't break traction much, only when we run over loose dirt. :-D :-D
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If there is a car that should try traction control it is the Camero that jl222 and his group run! It is the difinition of "traction limited" especially at Elmo.
Hope to be there in May to watch them.
Rex
Fastest speed at El Mirage in Nov. was 226. We were going 230-235 when we hit the loose stuff and we still had a long way to go. Five seconds under powerfirst shift is 119, second shift six seconds later is 177, six seconds later getting ready to shift into high gear I get into the loose stuff and lose traction. Here is a couple videos of the first run on sat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHUEA-pScY8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Udo7XM472Qk
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First off, I don't know Subaru about TC.
But -- 2 years ago a very fast street roadster (215+) was having traction problems. Last year they wired up th TC. Problem solved! Rock-steady at 175 or so all the way down the course. Took it out -- they liked the problem better than the solution.
Stan Back
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Took it out -- they liked the problem better than the solution.
Stan Back
:?
Any explainable reason why??
Mike
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...maybe cuz it went faster with the problem.....
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just an internet opinion...
Traction control can certain improve tractability.
An experienced driver can normally whip an OEM traction control systemn, but with $$$ aftermarket systems, no chance. The human brain cannot react as quick as a computer can.
But.
If you use traction control on an LSR or drag race entry, you don't even need a driver. A driver is nothing but a liability.
I refuse to allow anything but my right foot or right hand dictate how fast I go. If that means losing a race, so be it. I can certainly program in TC, but I won't. At best I might two-step (haven't yet); restrict max output until I get moving, but closed-loop TC would mean I'm not good enough as a driver. The guy who whupped me at the Diesel ProStreet Nationals used TC even though it was specifically banned in the rulebook. I won't though.
Right, wrong, left, right, I'd never agree to a manned racecar using TC. Yup, a computer can whup my ass, I'll admit it. But I race for fun, so the computer can adjust my engine A/F, timing, boost, etc, but I won't let it do my job as the driver. Heck, I just barely agree with allowing automatic transmissions and electric starters! :wink:
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Took it out -- they liked the problem better than the solution.
Stan Back
:?
Any explainable reason why??
Mike
The simple reason is not all of the information was presented as to what happened. Remember sometimes you have to read between the lines. TC is like tuning EFI. You either get it right, wrong, or close.... :wink:
That being said I still think traction control at Bonneville is just a way to slow down when you're trying to go fast.... but what do I know.
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I don’t know much about the MSD traction control system, but the problem you have with most traction control systems is that they just use two wheel speed sensors to activate the TC and in some situations you can get a false reading triggering the TC. This is most likely the case in the scenario that Stan mentioned a few posts up.
In my opinion a proper TC system on the minimum will use four-wheel speed sensors, crank and cam sensor and a pitot tube or a pressure sensor in the airbox as a reference for the car's speed. It will also require a fast processor like a Mootorola MPC565 32bit microcontroller. Proper systems are very expensive $$$$$. With these systems you can also incorporate your shift strategy. It all works together.
If you really want to run TC, look for a system from a Daytona Prototype car. They ran them a few years back and since been banned. Who knows with this economy you might be able to get a deal on one. Tony
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Traction Control is tough to tune as it is, on pavement. I couldn't imagine getting it to work on the salt or Elmo. Plus, most simple systems are using just ignition cut as the method for limiting power, and on forced induction cars there can be a lot of problems with that too. Turbochargers don't like raw fuel being lit in the hot side (not for long anyways). I've used both the ultra cheap "rev rate limiting" and once tuned a Motec system using wheel speed sensors, on drag cars, both were tremendously difficult to get working.
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I'm confused.
Except where the speed of the driving wheels is not unity (bad posi?), all the device need do is:
1. on-off switch, or selected by gear shifter (viz., only after 3rd, etc.)
2. compare wheel speeds
3. variable: what percentage is acceptable
4. spark retard until 2. is within limits
No unburned fuel in the turbo, no overheating (unless your pilot is reeaaally dull), no stuttering shock to the driveline.
What else is there?
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I'm confused.
Except where the speed of the driving wheels is not unity (bad posi?), all the device need do is:
1. on-off switch, or selected by gear shifter (viz., only after 3rd, etc.)
2. compare wheel speeds
3. variable: what percentage is acceptable
4. spark retard until 2. is within limits
No unburned fuel in the turbo, no overheating (unless your pilot is reeaaally dull), no stuttering shock to the driveline.
What else is there?
in theory it's simple. Give it a try and you'll see that the practice is quite different.
IF we're talking turbo cars, timing retard is not a great way to reduce power. That's why most turbo drag racers are using an AMS1000 (boost / wastegate control) and gave up on timing retard as a means to retard power at launch...
For closed loop traction control, there are a handful of variables dealing with how quickly and with how much change, the traction control algorithm applies changes... the first thing we got into was a feedback loop of on/off/on/off behavior until we started getting close on the proportional gain, etc. There's also not a linear reduction in power (again, on turbo engines) with ignition retard. SEtting up a retard up to eventual timing cut, results in LOTS of fuel and fire going through the turbo.
I didn't try this on a blower engine, individual results will vary. If there's anyone on here who applied traction control successfully with minimal effort, then I would certainly love to hear how they did it.
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If there's anyone on here who applied traction control successfully with minimal effort, then I would certainly love to hear how they did it.
Simple, the car weighed 5300 lbs..... :-o
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Our TC device is usually hidden where it can only be spotted by a trained professional, but since all forms of TC are now legal I'll let everyone take a peek... :-D
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:-D I think i know her!!! :-D :lol: 8-)
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:-D
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:-D
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I don't know. I still think the best TC is the driver and his foot. TC is for people who want to get in and mash the peddal to the floor and not have to drive the car. Just my opinion, Peter.