Landracing Forum
Bonneville Motorcycle Speed Trials => Bville Motorcycle Speed Trials General Chat => Topic started by: aswracing on October 27, 2004, 07:27:00 PM
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We have, IMO, WAAAAY too many classes.
The obvious opportunity for some consolidation would be "A" and "M". Those have always been close together and people cross over all the time (I've done it too). In many cases, the "M" record exceeds the "A".
What about vintage classes? How many vintage bikes are there really, and how far off are the records?
Does it make sense to have both BF and BG engine classes? I mean, boost and exotic fuels are both methods for increasing VE.
These are just ideas, good bad or otherwise. Others?
Consolidation decisions have to be made with an eye on the customer base, though. The idea is to get lots of people to come to the event. Do something that makes a group of bikes non-competitive in any class and those people will stay home.
Still, I think we have too many right now.
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why do you think we have too many? too many for what? i've heard this stated before and really don't understand what the downside is of having as many classes as we do.
for instance, (paraphrasing) you say M and A could be combined because the bikes are similar... that's because a lot of people don't take full advantage of the A rules... combining the classes would either: A, limit creativity by putting more restrictions on A bikes or, B, cut out a lot of people from competing because their mildly modified bike can't possibly go against the twin-engined thing pitted next to them.
it ain't broke, IMO.
cheers,
rd
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keep them the way they are.
gives us new guys more opportunities to get somewhere or records to shoot at.
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IMHO the existing class structure is just fine, and I certainly would not want to see Modified and Altered consolidated. If anything they should be more clearly defined.
I would suggest keeping the existing Modified rules (including existing fairing restrictions in MPS)but... open up the Altered class to an "Anything goes" class with no fairing restrictions.(I'm hearing a lot of people on this site wanting this to happen)
This would allow full dustbin fairings,and enclosed tails if you so wish in the Altered class only. A lot of NSU/Bert Munroe type replica's would appear and I think it would be good for the sport, and for the speeds.... and isn't that what LSR is all about?
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there are alot of vintage bikes.
Given more time I would have run 3 at the Bub's event, as it was, I only got to run 1. There were several others there as well.
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what "harm" does having all the different classes do?
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Hi all -
As a non-racer (so far, anyway), the number of classes available to both bikes and cars can be pretty daunting. During my six-hour visit to the World Finals in Oct., I met a fellow who was attending Bonneville for the first time. We walked the pits together, I gave him a capsule explanation of how to "read" the classes lettered on the various cars - engine size, blown or natrually-aspirated, fuel or gas, etc. He seemed pretty impressed at the number of different types of vehicles that could compete for a record.
What makes it all work is the fact that Land Speed Racing is all for the pure enjoyment of speed - no prize money, no sponsorship dollars that are dependent on TV airtime to recoup the sponsor's investment, no unlimited dollars devoted to cashing in on as many records as possible.
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All -
Ooops! I hit the wrong button before I could finish my thoughts.
Anyway, I think that the number of classes available should be limited only if they become too numerous for the sanctioning body to keep straight (in this day of laptop computers and databases, that shouldn't be a problem), or more importantly if the distinctions between classes become so complex that the tech inspectors at the event have difficulty sorting things out in a timely manner.
I think back to racers competing at Connecticut Dragway back in the late 60's and early 70's (before Bracket Racing). You got a trophy even if you were the only guy competing in an obscure class like T/SA, and then you had the chance to run against all the class winners for $50 or $100. The point is that there was an incentive to come out and race, no matter how small the racing budget.
Keep the diversity...
Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
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Yes, Yamagamma has it RIGHT,
altered for more altered everything including aero
as it is now, not much difference between most
modified and altered configurations.........
Joe :)
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Information.In SCTA/BNI there are 1857 Motorcycle classes available and only 671 car classes. I have a spread sheet with the break down if anyone wants it. I will e-mail to you interested. Let me know and send me your address.
Glen (Ret. Chief Timer SCTA/BNI)
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The AMA records of Vesco (318) and Campos (321) are not listed.
You would not call that consolated would you ?
What is it ?
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Yes, Yamagamma has it RIGHT,
altered for more altered everything including aero
as it is now, not much difference between most
modified and altered configurations.........
Joe :)
As most of you know Im trying my hardest to make this a reality down under , but the ppl I have to convince are talking to SCTA ppl ,who are addvising ,its a bad move and far to dangerous :cry: I am now reverting to plan B as there is more than one way to skin a cat :wink:
We(m/c) are also looking at class consolidation , but from a different angle ,reducing the number of engine sizes
Gary
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Combine the Class A and M. The faster bikes are M anyway. Who cares where your footpegs are ?
Eliminate the sidecar. They have disolved into a solo bike with a tag wheel anyway.
Unless you have a bike that runs with a monkey in another series, what is it ?
Don't change the engine dimentions or types.
The aero limitations are for good reasons that are often distastful to LSR folks but real none the less.
Lead by example, don't follow by default.
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I wanna run a "Boss Hoss" in production!! LOL
peace and grease
kent
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I still wanna race a "boss hoss"
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Kent
If they will let you run it I will time it.
Glen
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Then we need to figure out the corresponding Locomotive classes, for diesel-electric power.
I think you need to set the rule books down and spend more time with your wife or your motorcycles Scott. ;-)
Todd
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If Vesco and Campos were eliminated from the AMA book, Corbin never stood a chance. How soon they forget if they don't care in the first place.
I tried to get Mike's listing back, but the board said when we get an entry, we will worry about it.
Now with a new paid entry in the electric class, we can reinvent the wheel.
I have pictures of a steam powered bike from many tears ago and you totally forgot the Wankers. I have a Production Norton that might want to race as long as there no pesky minimums to run against ot anybody else.
Kent and his Boss Hoss would fit into the PP class now.
"Entries divided by available classes equals credibility." 8)
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Did your math account for the 3 entries I mentioned ?
They just thought they had some credibility.
They believed they were making a mark that would last awhile.
Boy, were they shocked.
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Well... whats the harm with having lots of classes?
seriously...
Vintage? uh... yep there are vintage bikes out there. Lots of them. Oh sure, I say that cuz I run several.. but they are out there.
Some might say... Alan only likes lots of classes cuz he goes and finds an open record and sets it....... YEP !!!! I sure do. And look what happens. I go out and put a mark in the 250 M-PG class, and within a year there are 4 bikes battling for hte record and the speeds have gone through the roof (for 250 pushrod).
I set a record in 50cc sidecar (beating an OLD, soft record) and within a year there are two more bikes out there doing the same.
I see it as a good thing.
There might be something to be said for A and M classes being pretty close together though.
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I don?t see a problem with it either. You can take what ever formulas you want to figure out how many classes their might possibly be but in all reality nobody is gonna show up with a 50cc/p-ppb. They never made one, and this reality can be applied to some of the other classes. So don?t get hung up on how many classes we have just build a bike that fits into one and show up and race.
KR
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He had the 3rd fastest Shovel Head and is thrilled for the rest of his days.
He does not consider the other classes to mean anything to him and he is not even part of the 7,000.
But to some it is important.
When you make new classes faster than anybody can keep up, it says something.
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BAH HUMBUG
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Scott you forgot the hybrids and the various deseil/gas/fuel/pushrod/OHC/blown/NA/nitrous/2 stroke/vintage/volts/battery type combos LOL..
Dave
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You forgot EFI, Classic, and Fraction Patrol.
Do you want to hear the hard story about how the Bazillian new classes occurred and on whose behalf ?
Is their a history buff out their that is willing to research the story.
It is not hard to do.
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You forgot EFI, Classic, and Fraction Patrol.
Do you want to hear the hard story about how the Bazillian new classes occurred and on whose behalf ?
Is their a history buff out their that is willing to research the story.
It is not hard to do.
Do tell: : :
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I can see valid arguments from both sides.
I suppose that for the top guys, a lot of classes are 'inferior' or just insignificant and their riders people you just bump into waiting to tech checks, on the starting line, etc... Competitors that take YOUR track time, reduce YOUR number of runs and don't deliver the kind of speed you enjoy.
Plus it's a nightmare to administer, etc... and I can see that with the proliferation of engine type (diesel, electric...), it will go on increasing.
Much has been said about the 1900 or so classes ALREADY existing, although Kent Riches correctly pointed out that some of them only exist on paper; nobody actually shows up in some classes.
From a non-participant point of view, but a keen enthusiast, what attracts me in land racing is DIVERSITY, the fact that anyone can turn up with a bike in any sort of configuration, find a class and be allowed to race.
Compared to other forms of motorcycling, land racing is NOT DULL.
Merging classes or outlawing some of them may turn people away. Equally racer like to measure their performances against bikes similar to their. Not everybody wants to race a Modified turbo Hayabusa, in spite of the fact that they are dominant.
I think that it should stay as it is.
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Merging classes or outlawing some of them may turn people away. Equally racer like to measure their performances against bikes similar to their. Not everybody wants to race a Modified turbo Hayabusa, in spite of the fact that they are dominant.
Rosemeyer,
Of what you say many of your thoughts I could agree with, HOWEVER I disagree with this statement. MY feelings are once you go and race, you are infected with a disease of the salt. I think if classes were merged, people would still build and come to the salt regardless.. There is just something magical about the place that cannot keep people away. Some may leave for a few years but they almost always come back... And I think it would bring out more of the competitive spirit...
To have someone racing in your class, which is sometimes rare in the motorcycle side, it pushes you to do odd things... Motel 6 rebuilds all night because your canadian competitor just raised the record 1 mph, make you do other odd things too like pee in your oil just because... Which otherwise you might have called it the week...
Jon
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Jon,
I don't mean to be controversial at all. What I meant is that if you merge some classes by frame configuration (A & M together for example), or by engine size (eliminating 175, 350, 600, and putting them together with 250, 500, 750 like Hawkwind mentioned), suddenly you could have some participant finding that their bikes are uncompetitive or obsolete within the new class structure.
Not everybody will be able to re-invest in new machinery, and not everybody will want to abandon their existing bike; there is the risk that some may have to stay home for a while. But I accept your point that the die-hards will come back anyway.
I talked about diversity before, what I meant is that land racing as practiced in the SCTA/USFRA/ECTA/etc... is STILL a sport that cares for grass root racers because it allows individuals with modest means to have a go and find a class to enter their bike where they have a chance of doing well.
Reducing classes has to be done very tactfully (if ever), weighting the possible impact on competitors. From my point of view (non-participant I repeat), that would be a shame.
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You get into trouble when you have increased and divided the field into non competitive confusion.
The restriction on fairings in the M class, protecting the demomstrated slower A class, and creating so many rules and classes that only your bike works is the problem.
Having the "World's Fastest Something" is really something isn't it ?
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Rosemeyer,
Not controversial at all buddy, just your thought and my thought... Keep it coming, you have great thoughts and I read them and think for awhile... Easier thinking about your posts then Jacks, his posts make my head hurt...
Jon
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Up until the "Hayabusa" era, all the fast records were help by Triumphs (Mininno), Harleys (Campos), Vincents (Matson) and only one Kawasaki (Toy)..... For siton bikes.
Jon
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All of the bike records prior to 1978 and some others remain with AMA sorta. Class C only exists in AMA. The start of the supervision at Speedweek only under SCTA was started with the full disclosure and at the wishes and pleasure of the board. The elimination of the classes you mention did not occur , but rather SCTA brought the classes up to the standard that included Vintage and Push Rod that were not found in AMA prior to their supervision of their event. The riders repeatedly were asked if they wished to affiliate with AMa and declined.
Speedweek after AMA featured an annual open meeting for all interested parties and actually resulted in very few rule changes. That is not the case now and if it makes your head hurt, I understand.
Rules like the "Dustbin" are their own reward.
A famous 12 meter sailor named Mike from SD said, "Those work just like a spinnaker in a cross wind, But at least when the wind direction changes on the water you can see it coming and put it away quick."
I noticed the new organizations like ECTA and NASA seem to have simular ideas.
In the days of Warner and Tater, they got in the 2 club with some pretty fast bikes that predate the store bought ride by almost 30 years.
REMARKABLE
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To Scott Guthrie.
-16 Sept 2005: "...class proliferation is already out of control!"
-6 Dec 2005: "I would be very careful about merging or eliminating classes!"
Scott, please, could you clarify for me these 2 (apparently conflicting) statements? I must be stupid, 'cos I don't get it. Sorry.
Does that mean that you advocate status quo?
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To Scott Guthrie.
"racers want to measure their performance against bikes similar to theirs"
What I wanted to say is that (in my opinion only maybe) you must have an even playing field.
Even me, I understand that there is not much hope for a push rod engine to beat a 4-valve DOHC equiped bike. Consequently, we must have enough classes to allow different types of engines/fuel/frames/aero to enter.
I presume that the owner of a 1000cc Buell for example can't compete against a 1000cc Suzuki GXRS. Just in the showroom, there is already 70hp difference! A 1200 H-D Sportster gives 100hp to a Hayabusa!
Even allowing to tuning, performance parts, lightening, boosting, etc...it's obvious that some engine types need to be in different classes than the latest Nippon technology.
This is what I was trying to convey in my intervention, but I accept that it may have been badly worded.
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With 5 flags over the MC in just the US, how is one to know what it is supposed to look like ?
IDBA had a records program for bikes that featured retirement of the records every few years for obvious to them financial reasons. They are gone now for many of those same reasons.
The practitioners of the "World's Oldest Profession" follow the business around but at least the product is the same. :wink:
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Even me, I understand that there is not much hope for a push rod engine to beat a 4-valve DOHC equiped bike. Consequently, we must have enough classes to allow different types of engines/fuel/frames/aero to enter.
I presume that the owner of a 1000cc Buell for example can't compete against a 1000cc Suzuki GXRS. Just in the showroom, there is already 70hp difference! A 1200 H-D Sportster gives 100hp to a Hayabusa!
There are plenty of examples in the record books that Pushrod engine are close to the 4valve DOHC records. Not a good example. ITs not all about HP.
For example
Out of the 2005 Rule book:
1350cc Class
APS-F - Suzuki Hayabusa - 199.153 - 2003
APS-PF - Harley - 197.199 - 1996
Very close speeds 6 years apart...
1650cc Class
A-G - Suzuki - 158.525 - 2003
a-pg - Harley - 168.382 - 2004
Just two examples glancing thru. What does this show, that pushrod engines have the ability to beat 4-Valve DOHC bikes....
It all depends on how and determination it can be done....
Jon
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Jon,
I have to admit, YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! Looking through present records I found myself several examples showing that pushrods are faster than 4-valve DOHC bikes in some classes.
I am amazed how they do it, starting from such a technical handicap.
But I take your point; it can't be all about power.
Do you think there is a case for putting them in the same class then?
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Class A/PS gas Suzy's are going almost 200 in the 1/4.
Something is lacking.
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Jon,2 examples out of how many? And really slow 4 cylinder speeds,not indicative of what they are capable of.Look at the MPS 1350 records,213 and 220 compared to 172 and 190.The "A" class records are softer in some of those classes only because no one has aimed at them seriously as they have at the M classes.
I am all to familiar with the limitations of the pushrod motors but am too stubborn to give em up.
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There is some real reasons to protect the HD and many other vintage and classic designs. But don't do it without recognition of past performances that are time honored and pretty fast. The forum la now used for "Push rod" had a target to disallow a particular modern motor but might have missed the mark and included others that were not closely considered.
The first thing I heard recently on the subject was with a person that should be considered an expert on the type of motor that seems to be the unintended victim and he was never asked. It doesn't hurt to ask, but to come back from the consequence of an uninformed decision is really hard on everybody.
Racers are a mix of "hard core" get it right vocal types and "dead by the side of the road" types that vote with their feet.
You have to seek out the information from all of them if you are to be well advised and not cloud your ideas with a narrow view.
There are going to be leaders, but it helps if everybody is at least marching in the same direction for a reason or you will lose them.
That might even be an objective that is less obvious.
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Jon,
Do you think there is a case for putting them in the same class then?
The answer In my opinion is NO.. There is no case to put them together.
It would be nice to have them all together to limit the amount of classes. But back to reality, there would be to much politics to combine classes.
With all the advances in technology you have to really respect what these guys (harleys) did in the 70's and 80's. With a hard look at the 230 mph Dave Campos bike. Which was the motor test bed for the Easyrider Streamliner.
Dan Kinsey is another example. Harley powered bikes have a nice advantage over the DOHC on width. Ever seen the Tramp III...
Jon
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And really slow 4 cylinder speeds,not indicative of what they are capable of.
There are tons of records in the book pushrod and nonpushrod that are non indicative of what they are capable of. And the 200 mph club minimums best shows what the capabilities are. But so what, you choose what you choose to run. In fact Greenleaf record in the APS-PG class 1650cc (i use this class because it was for Harley guys), record is 168.xxx with a full fairing. Now move to same class unfaired its 178.xxx in M-PG. 10 mph faster then faired. Just goes to show depends on who has their stuff together and who might be lacking...
I see coming next year huge speeds out of three "Pushrod" teams that I think will blow peoples minds and out of those three team I predict one 220+ MPH run, One 230+ mph run, One 240+ MPH speed..... Do you know who they are.??? Once you figure that out then you can play mulitple choice to find which is going to run what speed above....
And just for the record Dave Matson NEVER wanted to be put into his own class of Vintage with his Vincent, or Pushrod for that matter but he is because its the rules.. This guy would RATHER run head to head with anybody... Just ask him yourself... I know I did and I just smiled at his answers....
Jon
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Yes you are very correct Scott, I spend as much time as I can around him and his wife when they come out... Really a fun guy to talk too. He told us and he doesn't care what class he's in now, he just wants a "good record." I ask him to clarify what a "good record" was and he said, "A really fast one." and he will be out trying again and again till he gets it.
Jon
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From my novice perspective, I think that more classes will attract more novices by allowing a place for them to race with the equipment and knowledge that they have at this time. Some of those will race one year and not return, some will get hooked and return with better prepared equipment the next year and the next, and will progress with equipment and gained knowledge up through their particular class. Then, there are the people who come back year after year longing for higher and higher speeds with better and better equipment and knowledge, utilizing the progression of established classes. It may be that everyone who is racing for the ultimate highest speed will be using similar equipment ('busas?), but they will have gotten there from different routes (roots?). I'm starting in a production vintage class in '06, because that is what I own, and already find my mind designing a "A" or "APS" for the following years. I count on the myriad of classes to allow me to compete. Thanks for giving me the chance to do so.
dka
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another thing to consider....
not everyone wants to run 200+ mph.
so what if some of the classes are "slow"?
pushrod classes? small cc classes? vintage classes?
not second class citizens at all. Racers, just like anyone else.
going 90mph on a 20hp bike is a challenge, and worthy of having a venue.
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another thing to consider....
going 90mph on a 20hp bike is a challenge, and worthy of having a venue.
I hear ya Alan, if I had 17 BHP I'd be in heaven,,ans 85 MPH would be good for an orgasm or two ](*,)
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No one has ever said it is not honorable to go less than 200mph. The problem happens when a bazilian classes all offer the same reward even if you are 100 mph slow. BMW has a current AD around saying they have a "World Record" in a production class that anybody can buy a number of stockers that can beat it by a lot.
Individual performance is divided by the number of classes available. :wink:
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Speaking of that BMW ad -- a guy I know told me how a BMW now holds THE WORLD RECORD (emphasis his) for 1350 production bikes, at about 173 or so. Hunh?, I said -- I thought Rick Y. ran a 202+ on his 1350 P/P 'Busa back in 2001 or so and that number is still in the book.
So the guy brought in his BMW Owners magazine, and then it became a little clearer. Andy Sills rode the bike at last fall's Bub's meet, and sure enough, he did go that fast and got FIM certification, too.
So I guess he can lay claim to a world record speed, even though there are a probably half-dozen or more 1350 cc (or even less) bikes that'll go faster than that and still be legal in "Production" class.
Whatever -- the certificates on my walls say "World Land Speed Record", and if somebody wants to challenge me on whether my bike's the fastest in the world in this or that class -- hey, meet me on the Salt this August. It ain't bragging when you've got a timing slip to prove it.
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"It ain't bragging if you can do it.
It is BS when you can buy it.
When everybody has one it is priceless." :wink:
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If it is a FIM Record....it is a "World Record"......BNI record is a "Club Record" BMW got a "FIM WORLD RECORD" at the BUB meet.
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They bought the best that money can buy.
It is a shame that it is not as fast as stock bikes that are available to anyone with even less money.
It sorta takes the edge off the flavor.
Even the BMW customers find it to be a laugher.
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Okay, I yield the point -- Andy got an FIM world record on a 1350 production class bike at the 2005 Bub meet, running 173+. Good on him.
And Rick Y. got an SCTA record on a 1350 production class bike at SpeedWeek of '99, running 201+. Good for him, too.
So if I've got it right, the world FIM record holder has run about 16% slower than the fastest bike on earth in this class.
Hmmm, I gotta think about this for a while. Something sort of diminishes the value of the words "world record" when I compare those speeds.
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When the entire event serves at the pleasure of the promoter, it tends to get that way.
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You got it Slim......We have run consistently faster with our sidecars then the "World Record" for sidecars and todate have not been willing to put out the money required to go for a FIM Record.
However, if BMW payed up front they can advertise their "Word Record"
And just think, Slim, a outlay of money will allow you to beat the BMW record and become "World Famous" Go for it....you got my support.....see you at the BUB meet in Sept.
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The real satisfaction will be in the real speed, not the real budget.
You would have choked at the proposed budget that was required by the existing FIM sidecar record holder to go back and run again with the same package. I suspect the reality caught up with the real result sooner than they anticipated.
The fastest vehicles in this sport boil down to individual efforts, not corporate budgets, with satisfaction and respect to match. :wink:
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They BMW must be carefull.. If they are advertising the "FIM World Record Holder" they are subject to very stiff penalties... Until it is ratified it is a "Subject to FIM Ratification" If they impose articles that say different then that they are subject to a 10x ratification fee's... This is how it reads fromthe FIM
"IF the record is still in the process of being ratified, any advertising concening the results of the attempt must clearly state, in sufficiently legible characters, "Subject to FIM ratification".
These requirements must be respected and infringement will entail a fine of 10 times the ratification fee and/or other penalties state in the FIM regulations"
So the Nov 8 article that came out could be subject...
Jon
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The SCTA makes it way easier -- "No record is to be considered official until Dan Warner has had a beer or two to think about it" or something like that, right?
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Ratification would have been scheduled for the world Congress I think in October. That is when all the rules that apply to the application are reviewed.
That includes the required prior notice ,appropriate equipment and officials,adequate results , and timely publication of the application to the appropriate parties for comment .
Not all the applications are approved and that penalty applies if you wish to go forward with the application in the face of the violation.
No one is authorized to make it up as they go along.
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The SCTA makes it way easier -- "No record is to be considered official until Dan Warner has had a beer or two to think about it" or something like that, right?
"Club level efforts are expected to produce club level results and meet only their demands.
Anybody else can do it any other way. There are only leaders as long as they have followers. :wink: "
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Jack,
Slim has it right. I don't make up anything as I go along. Well, maybe the required number of "tinnys".
DW
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Whatever judgement the SCTA makes along the way they can.
The refrence to making it up as the go along was to
others outside of SCTA, ECTA,DLRA,and NASA for example,
with less individual experience and the need to protect their little job.
Was that too harsh ? :wink:
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Not too harsh - just a small joke at my expense.
DW
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Beer is expensive and we have a big investment in you.
Don't go now ! :wink:
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Jack, Dan, Beer will be supplied the next time we see you.. 8)
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....make no mistake Dan ....come to Gairdner ....you won't be left out( or thirsty), get into some serious ratification and you'll be rewarded in spades (full of beer)....we have little else.......
.....this coming meet may be a turning point when it comes to the "world" thingo though.... :wink:
If SERIOUS speeds are posted out here in March ....what happens then????
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You guys all ultimately take your racing as serious as you want.
What is left wanting is the number of events you have to develop your speeds.
That is the real handicap. HP is not a secret, AERO is pretty well established, and putting it together
is really a matter of experience more than it is money.
The Hot Rodders around here take great delight in a big bucks effort by somebody and just knocking them off.
That is repeated so many times, but still funny within the "Old Timer" circles.
Sometimes you will see a vehicle that looks like a huge investment and it is.
But look again, most of them are "Day Job" types that have spread that cost across many years and with lots of freebie help.
There is a reason that various good parts find themselves into this deal and it is not because money was used to replace time.
It is more if a relationship that has been developed with suppliers that have also been there over time.
"For a good time, use what you got now and be prepared to spend a lot of time doing it." :wink:
OBTW: I used the word"TIME" a bunch in this deal, and if you can't get used to it in this sport, I don't know what to tell you because that is all you are doing it for.
Even the "TIME' speant on this off the track is "TIME" that should be well speant.
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Ahmen, Brother.
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There is some real reasons to protect the HD and many other vintage and classic designs. But don't do it without recognition of past performances that are time honored and pretty fast. The forum la now used for "Push rod" had a target to disallow a particular modern motor but might have missed the mark and included others that were not closely considered.
The first thing I heard recently on the subject was with a person that should be considered an expert on the type of motor that seems to be the unintended victim and he was never asked. It doesn't hurt to ask, but to come back from the consequence of an uninformed decision is really hard on everybody.
Racers are a mix of "hard core" get it right vocal types and "dead by the side of the road" types that vote with their feet.
You have to seek out the information from all of them if you are to be well advised and not cloud your ideas with a narrow view.
There are going to be leaders, but it helps if everybody is at least marching in the same direction for a reason or you will lose them.
That might even be an objective that is less obvious.
So this is where we find ourselves with SCTA don't we ?