Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => SCTA Rule Questions => Topic started by: Calkins on March 01, 2009, 11:20:20 PM
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Hi all! I'm doing some research on a possible project, and I was wondering if anyone knew the answer.
I'm thinking about building a motorcycle streamliner with an old Triumph motor. I see that there is no minimum or records for S-VG at all. So, does that mean that it is not allowed, or that the last time that someone used this combination, it was with current parts?
:?
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Well, I got an email back from Tom Evans. He said that they are open classes, but they had thought about getting rid of them because no one has tried to run them.
So, my idea was to run a belly tank type setup with the Tiger series of pre-unit engines.
Tiger 70 - 250cc Single
Tiger 80 - 350cc Single
Tiger 90 - 500cc Single
Tiger 100 - 500cc Twin
Tiger 110 - 650cc Twin
Maybe these unit singles too:
T15 Terrier - 150cc Single
T20 Tiger Cub - 200cc Single
Any thoughts?
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If are looking for a record to cherry pick, the streamliner class is an expensive way to do it.
Regardless of what engine you put in it, the cost of the required safety gear is pretty high.
If your goal is setting an open record with no horsepower, then consider the vintage blown class on a standard motorcycle.
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I'm not worried about my safety equipment. I'm a drag racer, so I already have a SFI 20 firesuit. I'm all about the old Triumphs. I'm always wanting/trying to build something different, so I think Bonneville is the right place for me. I also have alot of fab people around me that can help with things.
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Well, go ahead. But it's more than a -20 suit. You'll need a parachute. You'll need skids/training wheels. You'll need lots and lots of safety items that will take a lot of effort and cost.
Go ahead, though. We enjoy seeing liners.
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Yea, I'm already trying to figure some of that out. I looking at a five year or less plan, just to be truthful to the reality to it. I started sketching out the body and chassis ideas. I'll try to post some of my pictures to see if anyone has some ideas. My dad works with John MacKichan, so I figured that I might be able to get some help from him, maybe.
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Start reading here, it refers you back to another thread in the first post.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5307.0.html
There are some design ideas on the superfast thread also.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4286.0.html
Good luck with the project.
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:-D Double your expected costs, double your projected build time, enjoy your designing and drawing process as well as the fabrication stage. Then (and only then) you will tripple your fun on the salt 8-)
Like to see some pictures of your drawings. :-)
Terry :cheers:
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:-D Double your expected costs, double your projected build time, enjoy your designing and drawing process as well as the fabrication stage. Then (and only then) you will tripple your fun on the salt 8-)
Like to see some pictures of your drawings. :-)
Terry :cheers:
Yea, I'll have to find a scanner to get some pics up. Tom Evans told me that I'm good to going with those classes for this year. Alot of good that'll do me! Hopeful if I get this thing built, that will let me run those classes. He said that SCTA had been thinking about deleting classes that have no interest.
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If are looking for a record to cherry pick, the streamliner class is an expensive way to do it.
Regardless of what engine you put in it, the cost of the required safety gear is pretty high.
If your goal is setting an open record with no horsepower, then consider the vintage blown class on a standard motorcycle.
I have been throwing the idea around to build up the standard bike to get my motor program tuned in. I just need to win the lotto!
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Well, I just got an offer to do a four-wheel streamliner. Now what do I do?
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Built it and have fun :cheers:
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Built it and have fun :cheers:
This is the car.
http://www.electrathonamerica.org/graphics/pic2005/CMLcarNHIS.jpg
http://electrathonnewengland.org/electrolite.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43KLaoGggRw
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Well, I just got an offer to do a four-wheel streamliner. Now what do I do?
Looks more like a three wheeled vehicle...
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Well, I just got an offer to do a four-wheel streamliner. Now what do I do?
Looks more like a three wheeled vehicle...
It is, but I'd up scale to whole car and double up the rear wheels. I'm thinking about going with the "K" engine class. Use a 500cc single or twin motorcycle engine/tranny combo.
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the Martins set several records in the 60's with those little trumpets....including a streamliner.... dale still races one and still sets records with 'em... the last time he was down he showed me some cool pix of him, his dad, brother Lonnie and the liner..... i don't know of anyone else who has been consistently racing a triumph single since the 50' like the Martins.... as for the electrithon racer, if your gonna build a 'liner you can do alot better than using that design...
Kent
oh PS.... if your contemplating a 4 or 5 year build you better keep in constant contact with the SCTA tech guys. you should be prepaired for some rule changes at some point during your build
kr
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loose goose Terry... how ya commin with your liner?
kent
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the Martins set several records in the 60's with those little trumpets....including a streamliner.... dale still races one and still sets records with 'em... the last time he was down he showed me some cool pix of him, his dad, brother Lonnie and the liner..... i don't know of anyone else who has been consistently racing a triumph single since the 50' like the Martins.... as for the electrithon racer, if your gonna build a 'liner you can do alot better than using that design...
Kent
oh PS.... if your contemplating a 4 or 5 year build you better keep in constant contact with the SCTA tech guys. you should be prepaired for some rule changes at some point during your build
kr
Yea. I'm starting to think that I'm not going to be happy with the 'car' project.
I'm still trying to figure out the 'bike' chassis. I've seen pictures of the Martin Tiger cub 'liner and that's what I want. Like this:
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9850/img222kg2.jpg)
I'm not to crazy about the pointed nose cone. The one I'm drawing up was a standard belly tanker rounded nose and a pointed tail. I also like to driver bubble on this car:
(http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/El%20Mirage/ELM%2008/Nov/photos/cars_3/1952.JPG)
So, with the front half and top of the lakester and the rear half and size of the biker, that's what I'm going for.
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Justin, my crew chief at speed week last year was invloved in the rebuild of the Triumph powered Texas Ceegar after it was destroyed in a fire. These guys have been racing Triumphs on the salt for many years also. I can get you some contact info if you want...
(http://www.saveourstreamliner.com/sep6.jpg)
Randy
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Justin, my crew chief at speed week last year was invloved in the rebuild of the Triumph powered Texas Ceegar after it was destroyed in a fire. These guys have been racing Triumphs on the salt for many years also. I can get you some contact info if you want...
(http://www.saveourstreamliner.com/sep6.jpg)
Randy
That would be great! Thank you! I've seen alot of pictures of that bike. Nice looker!
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i have molds for the Vesco liner i restored and sold to the national motorcycle museum.... i also did drawings for the chassis... i am also finishing molds for the Bob Braverman liner in a few months... both are a round drop tank vintage look....
Kent
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i have molds for the Vesco liner i restored and sold to the national motorcycle museum.... i also did drawings for the chassis... i am also finishing molds for the Bob Braverman liner in a few months... both are a round drop tank vintage look....
Kent
Neat lookin bike!
I should be able to get my sketches posted tomorrow.
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:-D Double your expected costs, double your projected build time, enjoy your designing and drawing process as well as the fabrication stage. Then (and only then) you will tripple your fun on the salt 8-)
Like to see some pictures of your drawings. :-)
Terry :cheers:
Here is a start. Not sure on the chassis yet. I was thinking of using a front fork and rear swing arm setup, like I drew.
Any thoughts and/or ideas?
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/36/l_1af412bfc4b24bddb932c113c2e71484.jpg)
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I'm really looking forward to seeing another Triumph streamliner :cheers: I talked to my friend, he said he would contact you. I hope he can set you up with the Triumph guys... http://www.teamtriumphtexas.com/
Ed, Nick and crew know their Triumphs...
(http://www.frsengineering.com/bn139.JPG)
(http://www.frsengineering.com/bn138.JPG)
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your probably not gonna want that canopy to extend back beyond the rear bulkhead......
good luck
kent
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A vertical stabilizer might be a good idea.
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A vertical stabilizer might be a good idea.
Do you mean make a fin that goes straight back off the helmet pod? I was thinking about that. That helps keep the bike straight at speed, correct?
Thanks guys!
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That's the idea. You don't want the tail wagging the dog at any speed. Look in the photo section for bikes that have streamlined bodies, talk to guys like Kent that builds them. It don't take a large or tall one just one that works with the air flow. Depending on the speeds you run the parachute must be considered in the air flow as well behind the bike. There are a lot of people on this web site that will help you with your questions. Stay tuned and keep us posted on the build.
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That's the idea. You don't want the tail wagging the dog at any speed. Look in the photo section for bikes that have streamlined bodies, talk to guys like Kent that builds them. It don't take a large or tall one just one that works with the air flow. Depending on the speeds you run the parachute must be considered in the air flow as well behind the bike. There are a lot of people on this web site that will help you with your questions. Stay tuned and keep us posted on the build.
I'm planning on always running the 250cc Cub engine but maybe different fuels and aspirations later. So, I'm looking to just crack 200mph, if the moons align! I was thinking, if you draw a line off the back of the helmet pod, level with the top, and a line straight up from the tip of the rear 'cone' to make the fin, would that be enough or to much? Could I leave the bottom of the 'cone' open like I had it? The whole car would be round, and the rear would be a cone shape like I just stated. Or should get rid of the cone idea and design sometime like Rocky's ride that flattens out?
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Calkins How much hp does your motor make at the rear wheel willie buchta
You have your work cut out for you http://www.streamliner.com/
http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3
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Calkins How much hp does your motor make at the rear wheel willie buchta
You have your work cut out for you http://www.streamliner.com/
http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3
I'm not sure on the horsepower yet. It's going to be a chore to find a crankcase and cylinder head from 1955 to make the vintage class! The stock 200 cc Tiger Cubs had 14.5 HP at 6500 RPM (probably at the crank) and had a top speed of 76 MPH. I'm shooting for 80-100 MPH on a tuned 250cc gas engine with around 500-600# bike and rider weight.
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I'm not sure on the horsepower yet. It's going to be a chore to find a crankcase and cylinder head from 1955 to make the vintage class! The stock 200 cc Tiger Cubs had 14.5 HP at 6500 RPM (probably at the crank) and had a top speed of 76 MPH. I'm shooting for 80-100 MPH on a tuned 250cc gas engine with around 500-600# bike and rider weight.
Calkins, don't want to rain on the parade, but by the time you install the required safety equipment, retractable skids, roll structure, hans device, etc...etc... you may be well over the target weight. That is not a bad thing, but hopefully you read everything people suggested to get an idea what you are in for. I am not saying don't do it, I'm saying go in with all the info you can get and a plan... won't hurt to have a very large budget as well... :cheers:
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I'm not sure on the horsepower yet. It's going to be a chore to find a crankcase and cylinder head from 1955 to make the vintage class! The stock 200 cc Tiger Cubs had 14.5 HP at 6500 RPM (probably at the crank) and had a top speed of 76 MPH. I'm shooting for 80-100 MPH on a tuned 250cc gas engine with around 500-600# bike and rider weight.
Calkins, don't want to rain on the parade, but by the time you install the required safety equipment, retractable skids, roll structure, hans device, etc...etc... you may be well over the target weight. That is not a bad thing, but hopefully you read everything people suggested to get an idea what you are in for. I am not saying don't do it, I'm saying go in with all the info you can get and a plan... won't hurt to have a very large budget as well... :cheers:
Like someone said earlier, I'm doubling everything! I'm 150-160# and stock bike weights around 230# fully decked out but dry, add a cage and all the 'stuff' I'm hoping to be around the 500# mark. Baby steps. I'm not going to try run 300mph, on my first run, with a 50mph bike. I've been told that a guy that's about an hour away from me built the motors for pretty much very fast Tiger Cub in the USA. So, I'm going to pick his brain and see what he'll tell me. I just laid out somemore drawings, and these have tail fins. So, I'll get them scanned tomorrow night and post them.
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5-600 lbs is more optimistic than 100mph.... don't get stuck with a lot of fin above the body in your design as it increases the roll leverage due to side wind loading... put some above and some below the body....
Kent
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5-600 lbs is more optimistic than 100mph.... don't get stuck with a lot of fin above the body in your design as it increases the roll leverage due to side wind loading... put some above and some below the body....
Kent
Ok, thanks! I'll change than right now!!!
With the small bike size and lower speeds, could I get away with just a medium sized lower fin? Or does the lack of air flow under the car lower the effect of the lower fin?
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Hope I don't make anyone mad with this design. I'm trying to listen to what everyone is telling me AND what I want to do. Glen & 1212FBGS suggested that I need a tail fin for high speed stability. I'm not sure if a lower if would be very effective since there wouldn't be very much air flow on the underside of the body. 1212FBGS also suggested a smaller upper fin to reduce the effects of side wind. I know looks aren't everything, but I couldn't come up with a design for an upper and lower or just an upper fin that looked right. I'm trying to keep off the rear part of the cone because of the parachute. I'm not sure if I'd keep the break-off cone idea that I have now or have an open rear at that line on the rear cone. Ideas, thoughts? Can I get by with the lower fin and no upper? The fastest this bike would go is 250mph because of the single parachute. I don't think I'd have it over 200mph. 200 is my goal and all I want for this design.
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/17/l_87650bcea6e747e4bc7474f8f35f2a58.jpg)
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Regarding the back end........take a look at a picture of the Denis Manning's (BUB) Lucky- 7
M/C liner..................................................................
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duplicate your lower fin to the top then shrink both 10%
kent
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duplicate your lower fin to the top then shrink both 10%
kent
How's this?
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/61/l_dfd5165fa55c471ba5da535a6ddf3fa4.jpg)
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duplicate your lower fin to the top then shrink both 10%
kent
Kent before he can figure the size of those vertical stabilizers wouldn't he need to have some idea where the center of gravity is?
Sum
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Might get some ideas from the old Bonneville thread.... Triumph just posted a set of old bike liners.... :cheers:
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sum...
probably!
kr
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Might get some ideas from the old Bonneville thread.... Triumph just posted a set of old bike liners.... :cheers:
Thanks, looks good!
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How fast did Vesco go with this one? He didn't have a fin at all. Not to say it wasn't evil handling!
(http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5202.0;attach=9980;image)
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I got ahold of Chuck Zeglin who runs a Cub open bike. Turns out that he also is friends with Dale Martin! So it looks like I'm killing two birds with one stone! Getting some progress...
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Naughty-naughty! Racers are required to keep both hands on the bars at all times. I suppose that, if called on this photo, the rider could claim that he was twiddling with the main adjust at the instant that photo was snapped -- but that's take some talking.
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Just a thought...in reference to the drawing of the cage...my guess is that you would not be able to see out.
Mock something up and take measurements, there is more distance from your eyes plus helmet plus cage plus body etc. than you might think.
Good Luck with your project.
Gary
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Will do, thanks!
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Justin,
I would guess that you are aware that motorcycle streamliners are now under car streamliner rules and will be teched by both m/c and car inspectors?
From 2009 rulebook:
5.A SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION CATEGORY
This category is the pinnacle of the straightaway racer’s art. It contains three main groups. In the automobile group are the unlimited Streamliners and open-wheeled Lakesters with a 4+ wheel configuration and in the motorcycle group are the streamliner and streamliner sidecar class. These classes allow both blown and un-blown, gas or fuel engines. These are all-out straightaway vehicles with non-stock engine blocks allowed, (with the exception of specific Vintage Engine classes). Innovation is unlimited. Modified production bodies are forbidden. Four-wheel drive is allowed in the automotive group only.
DW
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Justin,
I would guess that you are aware that motorcycle streamliners are now under car streamliner rules and will be teched by both m/c and car inspectors?
From 2009 rulebook:
5.A SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION CATEGORY
This category is the pinnacle of the straightaway racer’s art. It contains three main groups. In the automobile group are the unlimited Streamliners and open-wheeled Lakesters with a 4+ wheel configuration and in the motorcycle group are the streamliner and streamliner sidecar class. These classes allow both blown and un-blown, gas or fuel engines. These are all-out straightaway vehicles with non-stock engine blocks allowed, (with the exception of specific Vintage Engine classes). Innovation is unlimited. Modified production bodies are forbidden. Four-wheel drive is allowed in the automotive group only.
DW
Thanks Dan. I'm going to order a 2009 rulebook this weekend. Sounds like there's alot of changes since '08!
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Maybe i missed something but i dont read anything in the rule book that says that the motorcycle streamliners are now under car streamliner rules . The way i read the rule book the only thing thats changed is tech. The motorcycle streamliners have their rules and the cars streamliners have theirs and they are not the same. willie buchta
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Hey Willie, can you help me out on some ideas for my Yamaha? Thanks! http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5776.0.html
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If you look at the streamliner rule changes, bold print, you will see that m/c streamliners now comply with car streamliners in several areas. The m/c streamliners will be teched by both m/c and car inspectors.
DW
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Hey Willie, you have to remember that SCTA/BNI
after all is a "car club" and "car" people call the shots..................................................................................
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:roll: Hey Kent, About a month ago you asked me how I was doing on my liner. I looked at it yesterday and it still looks the same as before Christmas. :cry: Like Summ said awhile back..."Life gets in the way sometimes" D-I-V-O-R-C-E has put a halt on toy production for awhile but I'm going to have to get some tubing and make a few parts just to keep from going crazy. :-D
Your friend in SPEED
Terry :cheers:
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:roll: Hey Kent, About a month ago you asked me how I was doing on my liner. I looked at it yesterday and it still looks the same as before Christmas. :cry: Like Summ said awhile back..."Life gets in the way sometimes" D-I-V-O-R-C-E has put a halt on toy production for awhile but I'm going to have to get some tubing and make a few parts just to keep from going crazy. :-D
Your friend in SPEED
Terry :cheers:
I hear ya! I was told yesterday that I'm lucky enough to be able to pay on a loan that my ex didn't!!! I guess I'll just have to keep on dreamin, cause I can't afford to build anything now!!! 25% of my paycheck! Add child spport to that, 50% of my check is gone without me even seeing it!!! My life sucks right now!
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duplicate your lower fin to the top then shrink both 10%
kent
How's this?
(http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/61/l_dfd5165fa55c471ba5da535a6ddf3fa4.jpg)
Check this out for inspiration for a small (very small) single-engined streamliner
Click: BUDDFAB at BUB 2008 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df8XVdKbiLA)
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Hey, Justin. I see you're on line. I'm in the picjkup wwaiting for a customer to show up -- but I'm ready to talk some more with you. Try sending an email to me at my regular address -- and I'll see if I can get it.
I've got some more information about my International semi/road tractor.
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Slopoke --
Caulkins is not building anything -- he's only asking questions -- or replying to things he's never experienced.
Stan
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Thanks for the kind observation Stu
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Slopoke --
You're doing such a good job assessing the situation, and I've had a few drinks, looking at the certificates on the wall -- I'll just look in once in a while.
Stan.
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Well now that you two mouthy f***s have shut up, I'll try to explain what has happened, not that you'll give a s**t. #1 The guy that built these engines was seam to have fallen off the face of the earth. No one can get me information on him. #2 The parts bike that I thought I had scored didn't happen do to family memories on there end. #3 I've searched high and low to find more junk but come up empty. I only have 3 model years to work with, so parts aren't around. #4 My dad was a F-17 belly tank, but that's bigger than I want. So now I am trying to work with what I already have, which dickpoke has already highjacked the thread I started on that.
So, FYYFF, have a nice day! :evil:
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"I dought the person that needs this info has enough time to look at a car on the track."
I guess it was this comment (whatever it means) about an event, procedures, and place I don't think you've ever been caught my eye.
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Nevermind, I was trying to stand up for the SCTA guys. That they won't always be able to catch mistakes with paperwork.
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caulkins: be bold...make a commitment and start racing...in my opinion only, you appear to be a theoretical racer... get focus and bring something...no offense, but stop bench racing, and commit...i have seen you building a thumper, then looking at a liner...get a grip and put your rubber down...or at least tell theses other racers that you are drifting,and looking for a home... most here are actually looking out for you...good luck and make a decision!
you have had so much good feedback, what more do you need?
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jst get 'r' done...
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next... :cheers:
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Yup.
Most the race is getting to the start line. It gets easier from there.
Grab a helmet, leathers, and a rulebook, and show up. :cheers:
It can be intimidating and frustrating at first, but it's quite a ride ...
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Thanks guys. Hopefully I can get past the first phase this fall, and see the salt!
Like everyone said, the streamliner probably isn't going to be an easy project. I don't think it's going to happen. I just can't find the right stuff. I've already wasted a ton of money on all the info that I need for the motor, but without a motor I can't start and it won't go very fast.
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Look forward to meeting you at speedweek!
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Same to you!!