Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: McRat on February 19, 2009, 04:17:10 PM
-
Anyone using a high flow electric? What kind do you like?
-
We've been around the pond a few times on this. The first link was on Electric pumps.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2874.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2874.0.html)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2214.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2214.0.html)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2134.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,2134.0.html)
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5314.0.html (http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5314.0.html)
Search for electric water pump - there's more.
-
Thanks! I've had mixed luck with the search, but I should have tried that first.
-
I've had mixed luck with the search
The search engine starts from the page you are on. If you search from this page for electric water pump you only get this page.
Start ALL searches from the main forum page. The same search results in several pages of info.
-
Dean,
Thanks for the tip. Now in my file for future use.
Ed Purinton
-
Am I off topic or do you want a high performance water pump like Meziere (my favorite) and many others make?
You might call and ask for Don Meziere if the application is a one-off or unusual (like a 57Tbird) and needs special attention. Their ads are all over the high performance world and they're on the net. Perhaps they can help you.
-
Am I off topic or do you want a high performance water pump like Meziere (my favorite) and many others make?
You might call and ask for Don Meziere if the application is a one-off or unusual (like a 57Tbird) and needs special attention. Their ads are all over the high performance world and they're on the net. Perhaps they can help you.
IB we've been over this subject many times. Electric pumps have great flow but no pressure. This is a big issue in lsr.
-
Mike, can you expand a bit on this?
(My nickname is DUMB AS A POST regarding the subject!
-
In the 2nd post Dean lists 4 different threads that this has been talked about. Pressure is a very important part of the process of heat transfer, not just flow. Ask any electronic pump manufacturer how much pressure they're pumps build at full song..... I have. :wink: Not to mention what I "see" on the dyno.
-
Still not clear.
Let' say I have an F Lakester - maybe 225 mph @ Bonneville - (I don't, but for grins on the subject) circulating coolant thru a water tank.
I have a Meziere water pump that just pumps volume, no pressure.
By pressurizing the system what kind of performance advantage will I realize? 5 - 10 MPH?
And how do I pressurize my system to achieve this?
-
The performance advantage is that witha lot of pressure in the heads you raise the boiling point and don't let the little bubles you see in the pan when you put water in it to boil---just before it starts to boil---There is NO heat transfer under the area of the bubble'.
In '01 I runined a pair of 2 extras with a non pressure system. I now run a Stewart mechanical that flows the most that I can buy---they told me slow it down to 5500 max to keep it from cavitating. So far I have had no other issues.---I run a big Mazier but as a transfer pump for my extra water tank to the heat excanger.---
Bottom line: We have to have pressure to keep from having bubbles in our heads---I am air headed enough without any more bubbles :cheers:
-
I ran two different brands of electric water pumps, had problems building steam pockets in the heads and blowing radiator hoses off. I have since went to a high volume v-belt driven pump and ran hoses from the rear of the intake manifold to bleed of any air pockets. This has worked great, it is on a BBC.
-
What I'm going to do is to supplement the factory gear driven waterpump with electric(s) in an attempt to get more flow at high RPM.
From my reading of those threads, the electrics listed are kind of wimpy. Even the "big" ones are less than 1/4hp from what info they provide. 10amps x 13v = less than 1/4hp. I was thinking 30-50 amps and a dedicated battery.
There is little aftermarket for the Duramax, so there isn't a "big pump" option other than 2006+ which uses a bigger pump (which I'm already doing). While my "reported" water temp and EGT was fine, the engine overheated none-the-less, so thats my #1 performance challenge for this year.
-
Not knowing the Duramax water pump, cant you just change the impeller to flow more?
-
Not unless I make a whole new pump from scratch. It's a turbine style cast iron impeller with fairly advanced design, using airfoil shaped "french curve" blades. It's in a thin-wall aluminum housing. And because it's gear driven, it's difficult to overdrive it. It's integrated into the cam gear cover, so leaving it in would make life simplier. So if I just "help" it, it should improve it's high speed performance. It's design was for 3250 RPM, so running it at 4500 might be cavitating it.
-
What if you slow the pump down by using a different pully?
-
It's driven off the cam with a helical cut gear, so regearing it is major undertaking. Cam gear is critical, so it can't be altered.
Strange thing about Duramaxes is they are built more race engines than industrial devices. Gear driven cam, fully counterweighted forged nitrated crank, piston crown oil cooling jets (internally), solid roller cam, 4v per cyl, aluminum heads, intercooled variable nozzle turbocharger with watercooling, 6 head bolts per cylinder, etc. Just changing the factory tune will double the engine output. But the cooling system isn't very good even at stock power levels for some reason.
-
I would be building me a heat exchanger in the bed and be putting much cooler water through the block---also you can almost remove as much heat with oil as you can with water.
-
I would be building me a heat exchanger in the bed and be putting much cooler water through the block---also you can almost remove as much heat with oil as you can with water.
Good idea!
-
Are you (McRat) running a thermostat? If you are I would recommend slowing the flow down by a restrictor of some sort. If you are not, you might want to think about putting it back in. What i've had a problem with is that the water moves too fast and doesn't have enough time to cool off in the radiator, therefore slowing the flow down most likley will help as it did my car. Peter
-
Yup, running factory thermostats.
-
Slowing down the water that goes through the engine will help it can pick up the heat . If the water moves to fast it won't pick up the heat and cool the metal surface. I am going to put a water shut off valve like I have on the water main going into the house on the return line to the water tank. That way I can control and slow down the amount of water returned to the tank and it will make pressure in the system also. This is something that we did with our drag cars in the past. Also if you run a water tank make sure that it has baffles and that helps also. All of this is my 2 cents from an old fart anyway.
-
Slowing down the water that goes through the engine will help it can pick up the heat . If the water moves to fast it won't pick up the heat and cool the metal surface. I am going to put a water shut off valve like I have on the water main going into the house on the return line to the water tank. That way I can control and slow down the amount of water returned to the tank and it will make pressure in the system also. This is something that we did with our drag cars in the past. Also if you run a water tank make sure that it has baffles and that helps also. All of this is my 2 cents from an old fart anyway.
McRat, I also agree with Racerboy about slowing down the water. Maybee you should try a smaller orifice then the stock thermostat. It should help with the over-heating problem, being as you are spinning the engine faster that stock.
-
Instead of a manual valve how about a thermostat controlled switch that starts and stops the pump at whatever temp you want? They are available from Grainger.
DW
-
Instead of a manual valve how about a thermostat controlled switch that starts and stops the pump at whatever temp you want? They are available from Grainger.
DW
Thatys another good idea. Peter
-
The tech at Stewart says slowing down has nothing to do with amt of heat transferd---the restrictions raise PRESSURE and lets it stay LIQUID instead of turning to STEAM---read GH testmony---if it stays liquid---it will carry off the heat no matter what the speed---if it is slowed it might contain more btus for a given volume up to boiling
-
The tech at Stewart says slowing down has nothing to do with amt of heat transferd---the restrictions raise PRESSURE and lets it stay LIQUID instead of turning to STEAM---read GH testmony---if it stays liquid---it will carry off the heat no matter what the speed---if it is slowed it might contain more btus for a given volume up to boiling
Presicelslty, so slowing down the flow of coolant will transfer the heat better.
Peter
-
The tech at Stewart says slowing down has nothing to do with amt of heat transferd---the restrictions raise PRESSURE and lets it stay LIQUID instead of turning to STEAM---read GH testmony---if it stays liquid---it will carry off the heat no matter what the speed---if it is slowed it might contain more btus for a given volume up to boiling
slowing down the fluid transfer would be a restriction, no?
-
peter---the water speed has very little to do with how much heat leaves the metal---faster is generally better if the pressure is the same---gives you a greater temp diff, which lets you remove more from the metal---something called Delta T or something.
-
peter---the water speed has very little to do with how much heat leaves the metal---faster is generally better if the pressure is the same---gives you a greater temp diff, which lets you remove more from the metal---something called Delta T or something.
I side totally with Sparky on this and is what I've read. Slowing the water down is not the way to go, but this subject is like religion, politics and chevy vs. ford, so I'm not going to try and convince anyone. I do know that if I burn my hand I would rather have faster cold water running over it vs. slower water and know that if I want to cool something the faster the water flows over it (same temp water) the faster it is going to cool down.
Mike and sparky are right about the pressure and the steam pockets.
Now if the water pump is driven faster than it's design speed and cavitates then it needs to be slowed down.
c ya,
Sum
-
The problem of moving the water too quickly is not so much one of thermal transfer between metal and coolant as it is of thermal transfer from coolant to metal to air. It is possible to move the coolant too quickly through the radiator for it to transfer heat to the airflow. I ran into this many moons ago while racing sprint cars.
-
Right ON---that is why I use a water to water heat exchanger, with a seperate reservoir tank. I have some fuel cell like foam that floats in the tank---that I Try to keep the hot returned water from mixing with the ambient water that is in the reservior---may have to go to ice water if have a HP jump from power adders---right now I can maintain temp at whatever when I turn the Meziere on at the tank.
-
Fast water----slow water!? We have beat on this subject before. If you slow the water down to much the flow becomes laminar and at that point it stops transfering heat. The flow thru the engine block and the radiator must be turbulent for the best heat transfer, to be turbulent you need flow and lots of it. When I ran a sprinter for a friend of mine at the old Ascot we controlled the engine temp with the return pill on the injection.
Rex
-
Slowing down the water that goes through the engine will help it can pick up the heat . If the water moves to fast it won't pick up the heat and cool the metal surface. I am going to put a water shut off valve like I have on the water main going into the house on the return line to the water tank. That way I can control and slow down the amount of water returned to the tank and it will make pressure in the system also. This is something that we did with our drag cars in the past. Also if you run a water tank make sure that it has baffles and that helps also. All of this is my 2 cents from an old fart anyway.
Thats what we did on the 222 car, got it at Home Depot
JL222 :cheers:
-
Fast water----slow water!? We have beat on this subject before. If you slow the water down to much the flow becomes laminar and at that point it stops transfering heat. The flow thru the engine block and the radiator must be turbulent for the best heat transfer, to be turbulent you need flow and lots of it. When I ran a sprinter for a friend of mine at the old Ascot we controlled the engine temp with the return pill on the injection.
Rex
That's what we did for the first year or two. But once we got the cooling system optimized we were also able to optimize the air/fuel ratio regardless of ambient conditions.
-
EMP Stewart pumps can achieve the results you are looking for. I do not believe that the normal aftermarket stuff will work at B-ville. You need to look at the whole package. I would call them and discuss, I have worked with them on the OEM and aftermarket level. Everything is different, you need heat transfer, it is hot on the salt at speedweek and you keep the engine up in rpm and make power for a long time. It is a ratio, hp, time, capacity. You need to look at all of the variables. I worked on engine cooling for a long time to feed my family. :-)