Landracing Forum
Bonneville Salt Flats Discussion => Build Diaries => Topic started by: Jonny Hotnuts on January 05, 2009, 08:59:49 PM
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Here is the start the turbo motor build.
My pop and I have gotten more than a few heated arguments about building our own motors. Initially he felt it was going to be too complicated and we should rely on a builder with experience.
We have (to put it lightly) had to deal with an unreal amount of problems with engine builders, their quirks, crappy work and the lack of the ability to get something done in a hand grenade time frame (a year later we are still waiting on things…..SSS and his crank sort of deals). I have always felt we should know the motors and learn how to build our own, even if it ends up costing us some money with a broken motor here or there.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30277148_2766.jpg)
I was able to hollow a spot out in the garage....its not much room but its not outside!
This is the motor we used our first year and is stock less the 2 intake cam mod and no pair valve.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30277166_6703.jpg)
After pulling the valve cover I notice a bolt was missing on the cam covers.....
We had an "engine builder" do the 2 intake mod for us and was wondering why there was a bolt missing.
Turns out the bolt was only partly missing....the other half was in the head. I wonder why no one told us they broke a bolt off and just replace the valve cover.....
After about 20 mins and some work I was able to get the broken bolt out.
This is an example of just another problem we had with other people doing or work....
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30277149_3110.jpg)
Heres a shot of the motor with a few parts off of it.
Not shown in the pic is the starter clutch plug that our engine builder used thread locking loctite on and had to pie cut it from the center and tap out the sections......nice.....
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30277150_6273.jpg)
2 intake cams cleaned up.....
Will be asking about cam degrees for 2 intakes used with turbos when I get closer to seeing these go back in.
Now....its cold and I am going back in the house!
~JH
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Keep on posting your progress. You are doing a great job so far. Also, please tell us what your plan for the engine is - i.e. what kind of turbo, plenum, electronics, gearing, etc.
Don
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JNuts, Do you have adjustable cam sprockets? Couldn't tell by the picture... When installing 2 intakes it can be easy to screw that up and bend a valve. What are you planning for the inside of the motor? How much boost are you planning? Tell us more. It is a good idea to know how to work on your motor, can come in handy at measurement time...
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Jh,
we never run 2 intake cams with our turbo engines. Do a search on sh.org and you'll find that dennis tried running two intake cams and lost 30 hp.
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JH, what's your wife got to say about camshafts on that nice marble counter top, which I assume is in the kitchen?
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JH, what's your wife got to say about camshafts on that nice marble counter top, which I assume is in the kitchen?
Slim,
Try to stay on topic here... :-P
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Oh, sorry.
JH: What's your wife got to say about those camshafts from your turbo motor build resting on the marble counter top?
JN: There. Is that better?
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Not sure if would have helped, but if something is Loctite'd, heat it up with a propane torch till you see some smoke, then try it. Loctite is a plastic, and it melts.
If you can get away with using the kitchen, try washing motorcycle parts in the dishwasher on HOT. I think that's the reason I was kicked out of the house when I was 16. :-D
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Lucky guy. When I was 16, I was the dishwasher. :mrgreen:
Mike
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Also, please tell us what your plan for the engine is - i.e. what kind of turbo, plenum, electronics, gearing, etc.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4665.0.html
The turbo is a master power T70.....this is not a garret T70. For Garrett size comparison it’s just a bit larger then a GT35 but not as big as a T66 (it is however, a big turbo).
As far as the engine goes there isn’t much I am not planning on doing with the exception of leaving the head stock (less 65 psi springs and ti retainers), no billet crank and not using a multi-stage lockup style clutch.
I am (and have been) waiting for our undercut, big shaft tranny with drum mod.
I am making a call a week.....always seems that "it should be here tomorrow" and has been for about 5 months.
All common stuff is being done to the motor....pistons, rods, studs along with all the little stuff like HD pins, high flow oil pump gear ect. and really I am to the point that if the motor needs it I am going to do it, even if it puts my arse in a bind.
Insert Quote
Oh, sorry.
JH: What's your wife got to say about those camshafts from your turbo motor build resting on the marble counter top?
JN: There. Is that better?
What she doesn’t know..... :wink:
Insert Quote
Jh,
we never run 2 intake cams with our turbo engines. Do a search on sh.org and you'll find that dennis tried running two intake cams and lost 30 hp.
Jason, I have done a bunch of searching about this and you are correct that the general consensus is that it is for most applications it is not worth it to have the duel intake mod for a turbo motor. It has been reported that you can get a few more top end HP but loose HP on the bottom vs. the stock exhaust cam.
There are however some supposed to be exceptions to this....and the one factor is turbo size.
Even dennis agrees you can make better HP with the duel intakes IF you have a turbo large enough.
I was not able to read in detail why the big turbo makes a difference but for some reason everyone agrees that if you run the duel intake mod to see any benefit it requires a large turbine.
I will in fact look into this with more detail and will not compromise the build because I already have the 2 intakes with sprockets. I may consider getting turbo cams by Web or Megacycle if this proves to be necessary.
Thanks for the heads up.....
Not sure if would have helped, but if something is Loctite'd, heat it up with a propane torch till you see some smoke, then try it. Loctite is a plastic, and it melts.
After trying to remove the cover (with the correct key) the inside of the hole stripped and da.mn near broke my hand.
After removing the cover and seeing it from the backside I fould that it damaged the plug by streching the metal.
It was only after removing it that I fould it was caked with Loctite.
Good info about heating it, will try it in the future but in this case it was too late!
Lucky guy. When I was 16, I was the dishwasher.
Mike
Gosh Mike did they even have automatic dishwashers back then?
LOL
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There are however some supposed to be exceptions to this....and the one factor is turbo size.
Even dennis agrees you can make better HP with the duel intakes IF you have a turbo large enough.
I was not able to read in detail why the big turbo makes a difference but for some reason everyone agrees that if you run the duel intake mod to see any benefit it requires a large turbine.
It's largely due to the ratio of pressure in the exhaust manifold to the inlet runners, with a sufficiently well flowing turbo you will have less pressure in the exhaust manifold (TIP - Turbine Inlet Pressure, also called EMP - Exhaust Manifold Pressure) than in the intake. This allows you to run more overlap than with a lesser flowing turbo - overlap and backpressure (relative to intake) equals an engine full of exhaust gasses. Twin scroll housings also help in this respect; since manifold pressure isn't constant, but a series of pulses and the scrolls keep them apart. I realise that your turbo is big, but I'm not sure that your turbine is that big, I also don't know what kind of LATDC you have with your cams, you should measure it. Personally I'd build the engine with the milder cam, and log TIP and MAP to see whether it's worth looking at the bigger exhaust cam, the risk-reward ratio is all wrong with hotter cams until you know how your engine/turbo is working. I've wasted a lot of money gaining the knowledge of those few words. You already have more than enough stuff to play with - cam timing, fuelling, ignition timing, boost, cooling...
If you get time you should plot the lift curves of your cams, I've done about 30 now for my engine, and it's explained a lot about why some cams work on my engine and some don't, it's also highlighted a lot of BS spouted by cam makers and experts.
Andy :cheers:
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Andy....funny thing is that today I checked shipping rates @ UPS to send you a package.
Your explanation makes sense to me....I was thinking all day "how is it that an identical cam with slightly more lift could be detrimental to performance".
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30278402_8839.jpg)
Here is a pic with my helper "Captain Muddy Paws" guarding the motor (I assume from cats).
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30278403_9173.jpg)
Head and jugs off the motor.....had to make a quick run to AutoZone to get a 1/2 to 3/8 impact adapter. Those head bolts wouldnt budge with my 3/8 impact and had to step up to the 1/2. Even the 1/2 impact didnt like them very much and had to jack the PSI on the regulator.
I also noticed the plastic on the cam guide is checked. I doubt this is the way they should be and think I will replace the tensioner and guide.
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I'm with you Mike---I was Mama Smiths oldest baby girl Bill :-D when it came to things around the house---I did my share of the housework :roll:!!!!!!!!
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Ever used a breaker-bar?????
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I'm with you Mike---I was Mama Smiths oldest baby girl Bill :-D when it came to things around the house---I did my share of the housework :roll:!!!!!!!!
Retire, but be sure your wife/girl friend/soul mate/ life partner still has to get up and go to work every morning while you sleep in, you'll be doing your share of housework... :|
Oh, I forgot the topic police.
How much mechanical work do you get out of the dog? Does it hand you tools when you are working on your turbo motor?
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Impact... :-D
Well when that won't work "getter bet" a bigger one.. :cheers:
JH,
Use either a ratchet or a breaker bar to loosen....use a torque wrench to tighten. :wink:
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And maybe get it off the floor.........for a cleaner
environment.... for assembly.....................................
Just trying to help........................................................
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JohnnyHNs,
I agree with bak 189 use a breaker bar instead of an impact. It gives you a better "feel" as to if something is wrong, like loctite. I don't do much engine work but I never use an impact on one. And again I agree with bak 189, build ourself a nice bench and put the engine on it and not the floor.
I really admire you for being so "vertically integrated" that is business speak for doing everything yourself!
Rex
When you learn by experience the test comes first and the lesson comes afterward.
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Make a 2 ft x 4 ft table with a lower shelf on swivel casters. A couple of 4 x 4 and and a couple of 2 x 4 and 2 sheets of 2 ft x 4ft plywood is what I use for the MC I am going to restore. It's easy to move and work from either side. Make it the height that is good for you.
I learned many years ago why the aircraft industry has so much support equipment and material handling. When done for the day push it out of the way and clean up, cover the engine and the next day you can start over with ease. Right SS.
Easier on the back as well. :cheers:
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And the knees.
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IMO the inlet on exhaust will be ok with that turbo, i'm using same with a 35r and not noticing any hp deficancy.
You going to take advantage of the twin scroll housing with a split pulse header ??
Also std retainers are very good, not sure Ti are any better.
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OK, I’ll display my ignorance here. :? What does “running 2 intake cams mean”? In a DOHC I’m use to one exhaust and one intake cam. In a 4 valve head; are you running two intake profiles (one for each valve) on the same cam or are you proposing to runn an intake cam on the exhaust side? Or . . .?
Also, Jonny I want to thank you for going "public" and sharing all of your build information. :-)
-All the best
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The busa motor has 2 cams, one intake and one exhaust. The cams are identical except the intake has slightly more lift.
If you get a set of adjustable cam sprockets and a second intake cam you can install the intake cam in the exhaust side giving you 2 intake cams.
This is good for about 8 HP on an NA motor, especially if you have a header.
http://www.hayabusazone.com/newcam.html
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Thanx, Jonny. :-) Now I wonder what the Ford modular DOHC guys run?
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Jnuts, we use the "on sale" $39 Harbor Freight #1000 engine stand, making adapters from 4 pieces of angle. The wood fixture is used for support when you want to turn it over and split the cases since you loose half of the mounts
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S#1---please post that in the how to section---that is a good tool.
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Wow...what a great, simple idea! I have one of those stands in storage and a GSXR motor in the shop that I was thinking of using for my next build.
Thanks
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Nice design here by Shredder
http://www.suzukihayabusa.org/forum/index.php?topic=122957.0
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As you can see I thought it was a horrible idea.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30280487_680.jpg)
:-D
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As you can see I thought it was a horrible idea.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30280487_680.jpg)
:-D
Hey you are young yet, so you can keep working on the floor.....it is just us old guys that can't do it anymore 8-) ,
Sum
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I am definitely going to make one of those, i've got a couple of old engine stands that will do just fine. Last year we were either wallowing around on the floor or wrestling the motor around on a work bench that was about a foot too tall. Not a lot of fun for a couple of old guys :-P
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I must say its much better to get it off the floor. I had always intended to do something to get it off the ground but couldnt really decide on what.
Here is a pic with more stuff off the motor.....clutch, oil pump, pistions, GPS, cam chain, starter clutch......
(http://photos-f.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30280645_1635.jpg)
Biggest problem today......finding where I put my 30 MM impact socket to get the clutch nut off.
I purchased one last year to install a modded GPS on the 1507 motor but hadn’t see it sense.
Turns out it was in an old box with a bunch of other non related stuff. It is a miracle that I was able to find it at all.
I was worried that getting the piston pins out would be difficult. They came out way easier than I remember on other motors.
So far taking the motor apart has been very straightforward....but thank god for the manual!
(http://photos-g.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30280646_1950.jpg)
Some parts layed out....I have 3 other boards that I keep parts grouped by type or location.
Hopefully getting it back together will go smooth.
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Jh -I don't know that much about the turbo busa builds but I am wondering if anyone else has run that turbo on a busa motor with success?
The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is a master power dealer and he ran that turbo for 2 years on a 2 ltr. mitsu like I have. It lasted well for a plain bearing turbo driven on the street at high boost but they are very laggie(slow to spool) and don't make very good power for the size they are. He made something like 700 allwheel hp with it maxed out. It is an old design wheel.
There are alot of better turbos out there at this time.
And as I said I don't know busa engine characteristics but that turbo is way to small on a mitsu to try and run very aggressive cams due to a lack of exhaust flow which creates reversion, which in turn dilutes the intake charge and decreases hp.
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Hey, Hotnuts.....now you are looking GOOD............
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(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30286361_6675.jpg)
Balancer, breather pipe and pickup removed
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30286362_7402.jpg)
I had to suspend work for the weekend.....
Didnt have a way to remove the stator rotor. Requires a M19X1.5 to remove.
Had a friend whip me one out.
Ill make sure to put it in the "do not loose" box...if I can find where ever I left it.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v1968/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30286363_7969.jpg)
Cases spilt!!!!
Not long after this pic was taken the crank was pulled.
This is the first time I have ever pulled a motor apart that there was nothing wrong with it.
As a rule anytime I would see anything this deep the motor it had a serious failure and was a mission to save parts. Its really nice to pull something apart and have it mechanically perfect. Funny how not having the motor disassembly being a recovery mission makes the job seem less like work.
We were told our LOOOONNNNGGG awaited transmission will be here on the 15th.
For whatever reason I still think I will have more BS excuses before its all said and done.
Time will tell and Friday is the day.
Jh -I don't know that much about the turbo busa builds but I am wondering if anyone else has run that turbo on a busa motor with success?
The reason I ask is that a friend of mine is a master power dealer and he ran that turbo for 2 years on a 2 ltr. mitsu like I have. It lasted well for a plain bearing turbo driven on the street at high boost but they are very laggie(slow to spool) and don't make very good power for the size they are. He made something like 700 allwheel hp with it maxed out. It is an old design wheel.
There are alot of better turbos out there at this time.
And as I said I don't know busa engine characteristics but that turbo is way to small on a mitsu to try and run very aggressive cams due to a lack of exhaust flow which creates reversion, which in turn dilutes the intake charge and decreases hp.
There are other busas with this turbo.
I agree that there are better choices, its what I have currently.
The turbos max HP is 700ish. If I can get in that area the car will be really rolling!
I target that I will need in the 350-375 HP range to get to 200.
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I target that I will need in the 350-375 HP range to get to 200.
Go for it nuts! We are with you big time!
Geo
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To you guys that are already running turbo hayabusa's how do you return the turbo lube oil back to the pan above the oil level? I bought a used 2" billet pan with a large hole in the side up near the pan rail but I am afraid to use the hole for the return because I think it will be below the oil level.
Most recommendations that I see say to keep the return a large diameter to handle the foamy oil and above the oil level in the pan so that it won't back up but I believe that the normal oil level in the sight glass is above the pan rail and the turbo oil would have to be returned into the case somewhere? Yes or no?
Bruce Harmon
7077 H/BFL
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Bruce: As long as the turbo drain is above the pan it will gravity feed. Doesn't seem to matter if the oil returns to the pan below the oil sump level. If you run a ball-bearing turbo most put a restrictor in the feed line so in actuality there is not much oil draining back. You can always install a scavenge pump and return the oil to the clutch cover.
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Bruce, we supply with a restricted #4 and return via a #12 to the pan. The line is in the side of our 2 inch. We also draw a vacuum on the crankcase so return has not been an issue. You should notice the oil level in the sight glass disappears when you start the motor. The level is lower than the glass when you are running.
We run our oil to just above the glass at Bonneville.
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Don't ever borrow oil from little Joe Amo, he thins it but that's a different story like yellow snow.
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Thank you for your responses the 3/8 NPT tapped hole in the side of the pan that I have was probably used by the previous owner as a turbo oil return so I will use the same hole! I do not have the turbo yet and will probably run the car in the spring n.a. to check out the car so for now I will plug the hole!
I am running up a large bill on this forum I hope some day to pay it back, thanks again. I have tried to post pictures without much luck, if I caan figure it out i will post some pics of the car.
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I only wanted to add to Bruces comment that it is a good idea to have the center line of the turbo shaft above the oil level in the motor....
Even if its just 1" higher the oil will drain into the pan even if the drain is below oil level (pan for instance).
If the center line of the turbo shaft is below the oil level you will get oil leaching back into the turbo when the engine is not running. This in turn will cause the motor to leak oil and smoke like its on fire when you start it up. All turbo headers (*at least I don’t know of any that aren’t) are now made so the shaft is above the oil level. The old school original turbo kits mounted the turbo too low and then also had to supplement their system with an electric scavenge pump to return oil.
Bruce, you have mail :-D
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(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2102/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30292440_4223.jpg)
Some parts arrived today!!!!
STILL NO TRANNY!!!!!!
I am told next week.......
I am going to sell the rods pictured (Falicon knife) and use Carrillo. I have Carrillo in all my other motors and is the only reason I am opting for them.
I am going to engine turn the billet stuff.....
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(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2102/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30292536_1285.jpg)
An hour later and the clutch slave support is done
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(http://photos-f.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2106/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30313717_3373.jpg)
FINALLY!!!!!
After waiting for what seemed a year I got the tranny.
The work was done by Paul Gast (FBG- www.fastbygast.com )
It has been undercut and has the 30mm output shaft.
The sprocket shown is a 19t.
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By recommendation I am opting to not use the high volume oil pump and regulator valve.
I now only need the bearings, gaskets and main studs before I can start putting the lower end back together.
Unfortunately I have to use the Falicon rods (no one bidded on them on ebay).....nothing wrong with them but they are not my first choice in rods but that’s how it goes sometimes. Hope that it doesn’t end up biting me in the end.
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Hope that it doesn’t end up biting me in the end.
I take it you mean "bottom end" :-D
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I have been debating with myself the last few weeks on if I should the keep and use the Falicon rods or sell them and pony some more coin for Crower or Carrillo but it looks like the Carrillo rods won as they are on the way and should be here in a week.
Also have JE turbo pistons, tool pins, manual cam adjuster and main studs coming as well.
Originally I wasnt going to do anything to the clutch but I found this used and was made an offer I couldnt refuse. More importantly I met someone relatively close that has the answers to the questions about details of high HP motor assembly. I have found is one thing to put a stock motor back together using the manual and original parts....it is quite another when very few of the parts going on a build came from the manufacture or even existed on the stock mill and unfortunately many of the aftermarket parts have s*itty install instructions. .
This is a billet basket and billet MTC hub....they say it will handle way more HP then stock.....it seems really nice but in truth dont think I needed it.
(http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2235/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30333784_6912.jpg)
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Jonny, I have Falicon rods in my 'Busa. I have run it for 4 seasons now over 500hp at times. No loud noises so far.
Don
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I have been debating with myself the last few weeks on if I should the keep and use the Falicon rods or sell them and pony some more coin for Crower or Carrillo but it looks like the Carrillo rods won as they are on the way and should be here in a week.
Also have JE turbo pistons, tool pins, manual cam adjuster and main studs coming as well.
Originally I wasnt going to do anything to the clutch but I found this used and was made an offer I couldnt refuse. More importantly I met someone relatively close that has the answers to the questions about details of high HP motor assembly. I have found is one thing to put a stock motor back together using the manual and original parts....it is quite another when very few of the parts going on a build came from the manufacture or even existed on the stock mill and unfortunately many of the aftermarket parts have s*itty install instructions. .
This is a billet basket and billet MTC hub....they say it will handle way more HP then stock.....it seems really nice but in truth dont think I needed it.
(http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2235/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30333784_6912.jpg)
JH,
The basket is a nice slice of insurance and the inner is not needed however if also running a lock up will be nice, the Carrillo rods are good just over priced, I wish I had mine in stock as you would have had saved a few big bucks.
Take care,
John
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JNuts, oil pump... you said
By recommendation I am opting to not use the high volume oil pump and regulator valve.
Were you thinking aftermarket pump? I would suggest considering the HV gear for your stock pump as well as checking the pump clearances. You will really need all the oil pressure and volume you can get. At the 4 when your pressure has dropped to 25 and you are still WOT you will probably wish you had the HV gear.... Just a thought... You don't necessarily need a different regulator but the HV pump is probably a must for high HP NA or turbo... :| Also run it at the top of the glass or about 1/2 qt over.
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Stainless why would oil pressure drop at the 4 ?? is it realy a pressure/volume thing or is the oil not at the pickup ????
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Another problem that I have not seen discussed regarding the high volume/ high pressure set up is that the pressure created by the high pressure setup is higher then the bypass limit on the Suzuki filter.
This means you engine is running unfiltered when running pressures this high.
Someone tell me I am wrong.
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Maj, don't know for sure but our data showed decreasing oil pressure after WOT for 30 seconds with the busa, we changed to the high volume gear, saw less drop. Oil pressure was also 15 at idle after the run, 23 with the HV. Don't know if the oil thinned or had less at the pick up. We usually run extra oil in them to try to ensure some is always in the sump.
I was not recommending higher pressure, just more volume.
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I routinely see oil pressure drop on the tuned-up diesels due to oil temp. We can actually use it as a ghetto pyrometer when towing up long grades.
Engines with oil-cooled turbochargers or engines with piston squirters are very susceptable to oil thinning from temp, even though water temps are OK.
I'd suggest first trying a single grade racing oil as the cheap fix, like 50wt or higher. But the best answer is an oil cooler.
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McR, the busa motor definitely has squirters and an oil cooler. And I suspect thinning is responsible for the drop, I would recommend as much oil volume as you can get... We run 15/50 Top 1 Synthetic....
Jason and John, you don't need to reveal any secrets, are you guys using stock or enhanced oil volume?
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Thanks Stainless,
I knew idle pressures are frightening when hot, common trick is keep the idle speed up .
I wonder if the std pressure relieve valve is only able to maintain pressure at a given level in hot oil, and cold oil pressure overwhelming the valve to an artificialy high pressure ?
JH i don't think there is a pressure relieve in the filter, but i'm curious now and will go cut one up to be sure.
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A big problem if you have oil squirters is that as you thin the oil from temp, the piston temps climb very fast. You get the triple-whammy of hot oil not being as effective for cooling, combined with lower pressure putting less oil on target, combined with lesser degrees of crankshaft rotation under cooling. It's part of what killed our engine. Water temp fine, but pistons overheated.
Low pressure to bearings will reduce engine lifespan. Low pressure to oil squirters can stop the engine instantly.
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I'm looking to adapt squirters to an SBC. Are the Busa squirters a seperate fitting and part number that could be purchased seperately. Anybody know a source for SBC squirters or a way to adapt something? TIA. :-)
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I'm looking to adapt squirters to an SBC. Are the Busa squirters a seperate fitting and part number that could be purchased seperately. Anybody know a source for SBC squirters or a way to adapt something? TIA. :-)
Nearly all the late model diesels use them, also the Gen IV? SBC in the ZR1 and CTS-V have them, which might be close in geometry to what you need.
Next time I have the pan off, I'll take some pictures of how they set it up a Duramax diesel. One feature will be different, the pistons have an internal "racetrack" cast inside them so the oil flows inside the piston crown. I still haven't figured out how they cast that.
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Thanks for the reply, Pat. I have a '06 Duramax and I just got around to ordering all manuals last week. There will probably be a picture of the squirters in the engine assembly manual and I'll look for it. Good info about the other Chevy blocks . . . many thanks for your ideas. 8-)
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Saltfever,
Look on page 106 of the April 2009 Hot Rod they show a pic of a squirter made by Katech Performance. Might work for you.
Loss of oil pressure at high temp is usually caused by internal leakage in the oil pump. Not having any experience with a Busa I would guess that it has a gear or geroter style pump, when the oil thins it leaks from the high pressure side of the pump to the low (inlet) pressure side so not only does the oil pressure fall but the oil temperature is accelerated by the leakage. Most pressure control valve are nothing more than a ball with an adjustable spring and they seal pretty well even with thin oil unless there is dirt between the ball and the seat.
Oil coolers fix these problems. If you are running a water tank then some of the after market oil/water heat exchangers would probably be the trick setup.
Rex
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Got it. Thanks, Rex. :-D
Nice idea . . . it looks like the oil supply comes up through the stud that is tapped into an oil galley. Hmmm, I wonder how much horsepower it costs with the piston pushing against the oil spray?
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.... Hmmm, I wonder how much horsepower it costs with the piston pushing against the oil spray?
A lot less than the benefit :-o
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Absolutely oil squirters cost some power. But I doubt it's too much. It sprays with the piston going up, as well as going down. So it's like a windage loss. It's useful for sustained high output on super/turbocharged engines, because the amount of heat the piston must absorb can be over twice the amount of heat a NA engine will ever see. If you allow the piston to get too warm, cracking becomes an issue, and if you spray nitrous, it can actually ignite the aluminum in the piston if you get greedy with the boost.
It's a necessary evil for some applications. Until they come out with useable ceramic pistons or other technology, it's the best band-aid available.
Beryllium pistons anyone? :-D
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JH i don't think there is a pressure relieve in the filter, but i'm curious now and will go cut one up to be sure.
I asked a buddy of mine about why he was using a very different oil filter setup on his busa and he is the one that explained to me that the busa does have a bypass and he cut one up and to see if there was any trash in the filter after blowing a motor and found that it had a bypass and the filter was spotless. He is using the high pressure high volume setup and found the suzuki filter bypassed at 100 psi.
Here is the filter he is currently running (BTW: this bike did 8.38 without boost, not too bad!) He now says that it is spotless in the pan when the motor is taken apart where before it was always a mess.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2235/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30335727_9080.jpg)
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The old Ferrari 250 and 330 front- engine V12 cars had two oil filters mounted upside- down on the front of the engine. One was a conventional oil filter (PH2815); the other (PB50) was a filter for the bypassed oil. This way the oil passed through a filter under all conditions.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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a Suzuki oil pump will NOT build 100psi pressure and the coyning will blow on most crimp styled oil filters around 85 psi... your guy is FOS....
kent
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Kent;
A PH2815 could be replaced with a commonly- available PH8 oil filter but the first time you started the engine it would rupture a PH8.... BANG and oil everywhere. :oops:
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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yep been there blown them up too... i've even blown oil coolers up..... at least his friend sent him in the right direction with the oberg..
kent
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yep been there blown them up too... i've even blown oil coolers up..... at least his friend sent him in the right direction with the oberg..
kent
Why doesn't that surprise me? :mrgreen:
See ya in May Kent... :cheers:
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a Suzuki oil pump will NOT build 100psi pressure and the coyning will blow on most crimp styled oil filters around 85 psi... your guy is FOS....
kent
http://www.rcsperformanceonline.com/Billet_Oil_Pressure_Valve_p/billet%20oil%20pressure%20valve.htm
For replacement of the OEM oil pressure valve. Designed to create higher oil pressure for your high performance engine. The OEM valve creates 71 psi at high rpm. The high quality Billet Oil Pressure Valve creates 125 psi at high rpm.Able to be used on the GSXR 750, 1000, and 1300. The billet oil pressure relief valve has been successfully tested in Drag Racing & Daily riding with outstanding results. Built to help prevent bearing failure from low oil pressure at high rpm. Great for high compression naturally aspirated motors & nitrous applications. This should be used in conjunction with the high volume oil pump gear. The gear gives you the volume, this gives you the pressure. Both are recommended for the best results.
Please Note - You must tighten filter with a wrench and let the bike get to operating temperature before revving the engine or you will blow the gasket out of the oil filter.
The high pressure/high volume setup pressure is well documented, the busa pump can in fact make more that 100 psi oil pressure.
Again your perceived knowledge of everything and your assumption of this has once again proven that you are the one thats FOS.
Seriously get over yourself.
:-D
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Got a few more parts today.....got most of the expensive stuff out of the way now its just nickel and dime city.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2275/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30342811_8874.jpg)
I will be doing an oil mod on the case and need to get the bearings here before I start assembly. Once the bottom end gets back together I will be getting some head work done (porting, 1mm larger exhaust and SS valves, HD springs....ect). Will sure be nice to get things back together!
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-ALSO-
Both the rods and pistons have "Nascar" stuff on the boxes....hope that doesnt make my car want to pull hard to the right!
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Right?????????
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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What oil mods are you doing to the cases?
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the mods need to be done to the bearing shells only...
kent
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What needs to be done? Rod bearings or mains? Fred
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What oil mods are you doing to the cases?
Drilling out, line boring and re-tapping the passage to 3-4.
This will increase oil volume to this side. There is a sharp turn to 3-4 that decreases flow and the mod helps equalize the distribution.
Harrys Machined Parts does the mods for around 200$ (not including S&H)
harrys Phone # 1-508-366-1455 (ask for Rick)
I’ll show ya how to do it for nothing.
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Show me, show me. :-D
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Will do FV.
It will be sometime mid next week. :wink:
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Sounds good.
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Sorry it has taken sooo long to get this stuff posted, work as of late has been nuts.
Firstly the info I show is NOT of my design. These mods to the oiling system are copied directly from common mods done and known to be effective and valuable but if you choose to do these mods understand that I am not liable for any issues you may have. I am also showing info on other some other oil system mods often done but I am choosing not to do these because I don’t feel they are needed.
That being said.
Mod 1:
(http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363504_3243450.jpg)
Here you can see the oil gallery to the mains takes 2 abrupt 90 degree turns that feed 3&4. After it makes the 2 turns the gallery goes from 14mm to 6mm.
(http://photos-b.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363673_1168858.jpg)
6mm to remove outside plug
(http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v653/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363674_309995.jpg)
I had just started to drill and stopped to take a pic of the difference between the main gallery and the gallery that feeds 3-4.
(http://photos-f.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2567/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363677_1972046.jpg)
Use a 5/16ths drill and set it to stop at the end of the line to the plug….dont go deeper.
I had to grip the bit at the end of the chuck but a standard length bit was just able to do it.
(http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2567/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363680_6352258.jpg)
Tap the hole. I used a 3/8ths 16 tap and recommend using a high quality tap, I used Snap-On but whatever you feel comfortable with. I tapped the hole 3/4”, this is the exact depth of the material BEFORE the bearing feed. If you tap it deeper and install a longer bolt that ¾ (from base of head) you will restrict or block the bearing supply.
(http://photos-h.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2567/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30363687_7412170.jpg)
Here is a bolt I put in place for an example. The head is too large to fit under the cover and is about ¼” too long. I will pick up a 3/8 16X.75 plug tomorrow.
ALSO.....
Tomorrow I will show the rest of the mods.....
This is when things will get fun.
~JH
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JH,
Great info...where did you learn these mods from..?
J
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Jonny: How did you get all the pics to load in ONE posting! What size are the individual pics? I keep my pics to less than 500Kb but still can't get more than one per post. :-)
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If Harrys machine does these mods it must be what was done to DaveO's motor. I read he had some mods to his oiling system.
JN have you ever had a problem with mains 3&4?
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Jonny: How did you get all the pics to load in ONE posting! What size are the individual pics? I keep my pics to less than 500Kb but still can't get more than one per post. :-)
He has the pictures posted on another site and then is using the "image command" to link to them. You are viewing them from another site.
Great stuff JN,
Sum
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Thanks, Sum. It sure makes it more readable with the ability to add comments with each pic. I had a lot of trouble posting in another thread. The interface is a bit diifcult. If it throws you out because the file is too large, you can't editthe reply because it thinks you are making a duplicate of what the system just eliminated. Oh well . . . I had always wanted to open a photobucket account, I guess it abouttime :-) All the best to you.
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Mod 2:
Items needed:
Precision drills .030, .035 or .040
Paste flux
Torch
Loctite
Solder (pipe)
This mod lowers the amount of oil sprayed on the pistons. There are streeted bikes that have completely blocked these jets with no problems. A very reputable builder (turbo and No2 busas) suggest .030 but opted to do .04.
This mod is actually reported to gain HP due to the better windage on the crank and from what I am told there is so much oil flying around that the motor really doesn’t need the extra oil directed for piston cooling from these jets. It also sends more oil to the main and rod bearings.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105414991632_1114496579_30365609_2766156_n.jpg)
Here is a pic of one of the jets. Get a long wrench, these suckers are Loctited in.
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415031633_1114496579_30365610_5599014_n.jpg)
There is a small o-ring on the back, note the excess green Loctite around the bolt hole….they didn’t intend these to fall out!
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415071634_1114496579_30365611_4882953_n.jpg)
Take a drill bit (I used a .67) and scratch the inside of the jet about ¼” inch in. This gives the solder teeth to bite on. Imagine you are using sandpaper to prep the outside of a pipe you are about to sweat. After you scratch the inside I recommend heating the jet to burn off any excess oil residue, allow to cool before the next step.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415111635_1114496579_30365612_3116076_n.jpg)
fill the inside of the jet (to the bend) with flux, note that I didn’t wipe off the excess off the side…..you will see later what happens if you don’t.
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415151636_1114496579_30365613_6849941_n.jpg)
Get your propane torch and pre heat the pipe….if you never sweated copper pipes before its not too big of a deal and this is exactly the same. You will want to get the jet hot enough that it will melt the solder on contact after the flame is removed. Add enough to the hole so it fills the jet to a depth of approximately ¼ inch (almost to the bend).
Allow to cool.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415551646_1114496579_30365614_636442_n.jpg)
Here is what the jet will look like. Note the solder on the side of the jet….this is because I didn’t remove the flux….I could worry about it but it wont go anywhere so its going to stay…..no biggie.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415591647_1114496579_30365615_1541773_n.jpg)
I actually had to twist the drill by hand (I don’t have a chuck that can fit a .04 drill).
It wasn’t too bad, the solder drills nice (thankfully its only 4 holes!).
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs020.snc1/2552_1105415631648_1114496579_30365616_7668184_n.jpg)
Here is a finished jet. Make sure you can blow through the hole and reinstall with a hard Loctite.
Also…..
Today I cut the living dog s.hit out of my thumb (not relating to this). I rapped it up but need to go get a few stitches when the wife gets home.
Will show more oil mods tomorrow.
~JH
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show us the cut! :-D
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You are one sick man, Kent!! Only time the cut is interesting is when it is build related.....well, maybe not, not if it will interfer with his build! :-o Geez, I've lost some more brain cells!! Is it August yet? :? :roll:
Lynda
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Hotnuts, didn't you see the "don't try this at home" instruction?
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show us the cut!
Kent, you could handle it.....
Some others....not so sure of....
Better left unseen.
Funny thing is that after my wife and I ate a nice dinner I went in to get it sewed up. They gave me a local and from then allowed me to do most of my own work including cleaning it out, prepping and doing the last 2 stitches (of 3). I was surprised in how they would allow me to take such an active roll in my own treatment. The doctor also told me to remove my own stitches when it healed to avoid coming back in.
I guess if you talk like you know what you are doing they will let you deliver.
The worst part of the whole process was waiting, filling out papers, waiting getting worked on and waiting some more.
other than that....fun stuff and a good experience.
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Kent, he went to a VET. :evil:
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JNuts, are you sure you want to reduce the spray under the pistons, does the guy that recommended it run WOT for 5 miles? Or is he maybe a drag racer... :| and he gets more HP for 7.48 seconds..... :-o
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:? I have piston sprayers on my BBC and I run NA... :?
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And I have never used oil squirter's on my Bonneville engines.
I have used them when the stroke is real short and the rod is very long on other applications........
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JNuts, are you sure you want to reduce the spray under the pistons, does the guy that recommended it run WOT for 5 miles? Or is he maybe a drag racer... and he gets more HP for 7.48 seconds.....
Guys running 100% blocked squinters for 8K miles on hard driven street motors.
Know a few that ran @ Maxton with 0 from the jets with no probs.
I was recommended to use .030 for a LSR motor....running .040
Dont want to make the sources of my info on these mods public...but I can assure everyone that he knows waaaaay more than I do regarding high HP busa builds (although thats not saying allot!). For whatever reason the people that do these mods professionally have been real tight lipped about what they do and why. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some peeps out there that f-ing hate that I let the bat out of the cag.
WIll see in August if the motor smokes!
~JH
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I know what you mean JH. Racers are a funny lot. I can tell someone exactilly what Compression, cam, boost etc. I run and they don't believe me. So no need to lie.......
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And I have never used oil squirter's on my Bonneville engines. I have used them when the stroke is real short and the rod is very long on other applications........
Interesting! Mike, what is it about that combination that suggests using squirters?
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my guess is that the wrist pins stay WAY up there away from the oil. I run squirters because I am trying to get all of the heat I can from the piston crowns---like diesel trucks that I know about.
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Along this journey of my first busa engine build I have discovered there are some things you can get away with.....other things... not so much.
Case in point is that my China made micrometers only would read to .001. Truth be known they came from Harbor poop sales and are not too bad all things considered. Unfortunately these don’t really do me any good considering the bearing and journal tolerances are to .0001. I was making guess estimates based on the end wheel being "part way" through the .001ths.
I sent the crank to Marine Crank today to be balanced, polished and nitrated. I dont think that the tolerances would change due to this operation but didnt know if it was common to send another good crank back to me pre done with this common machine work, that may not of been the exact crank I sent in (unlikely but ya never know).
I got this mic today to do the measurements on the journals when the crank comes back before I order bearings.
If you are reading this considering doing a build that requires new bearings just be ready to get a mic that reads at least .0001. This one reads to .00005 and is somewhat spendy but at least there will be no guessing on bearing tolerances and hopefully will be the last one I need for a while.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30372531_1673876.jpg)
~JH
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JH;
If a measuring tool says "Mitutoyo", "Brown & Sharp", or "Starrett", you can depend on its accuracy.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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JH,
If you sent a crank to Dave at Marine you will receive the same one when the work is completed.
John
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Snip... If you are reading this considering doing a build that requires new bearings just be ready to get a mic that reads at least .0001. This one reads to .00005 and is somewhat spendy but at least there will be no guessing on bearing tolerances and hopefully will be the last one I need for a while.
Jonny, ordinarily I wouldn't split hairs but you have invested in a quality mic and are focused on precision. :wink: Your mic has 1 micron (.001mm) resolution. A micron is .00003937" and that would be .00004" with rounding error. Don't want you to loose oil pressure! :-D
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jnuts,
Your new micrometer is a fine piece of equipment and certainly from one of the very best manufactures but when you start measuring things in .00005 inch increments you had better start looking at temperature control also. Say you are measuring something that is 2 inches and you want its exactly 2.000000 inches. Well if you measure at one temperature and then measure it again at a temperature 10 degrees higher it will be .000126 inch larger now! did your micrometers expand also and what is the real dimension??? Some times when you start measuring to RCH's you have to really think if the extra zeros really mean anything. BTW the thermal coefficient of thermal expansion for steel is 6.33 x 10 to the negative 6 power (.00000633) inches/inch/deg F.
Can you order bearings for your Busa to a dimension that is closer than .0005? and if you can what is the tolerance? Always good to be accurate a waste of time to be more accurate than you need to be. And one other thing don't forget to have them calibrated every few months, probably will need to find a very good tool and die shop with some half tenth Jo blocks, other wise you will just have an accurate C clamp.
Rex
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The four sizes of Hayabusa main and rod bearings have a thickness range of .0006"
Main bearings .0586" to .0592"
Rod bearings .0583" to .0589"
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RCH? I thought I was the last one to frequently use that term. No one seems to remember nowadays.
Rex -- Please help me extrapolate the correct formula (and an answer, too) to the question . . .
If I can go 210 on 725 H.P., what would be the maximum speed with the same vehicle with only 350 H.P.
I can't remember how to solve for it, let alone do the square roots.
Stan Back
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Stan, my back woods figuring says it would go 165 ish with 350 whp.
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Stan, my back woods figuring says it would go 165 ish with 350 whp.
Hey now that you got that accurate mic you can do better. It is 164.8 mph :evil:.
Stan the spreadsheet is here......
http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/bvillecar/bville-spreadsheet-index.html
....... you just have to put the numbers in,
Sum
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Thanx, guys.
Sorry, Sum -- my machine won't converse with that chart (let alone open it).
Stan
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In regards to Busa lubrication........APE oil-pump gear......drill and mod. oil pasages in the case.....
block off sprayers.......billet reuseable oil filter (
flows more oil) AND use Castrol R 30 or 40 castor
(bean oil) no better lubricant in the world..........
(drain it out of the motor when hot..store and use again)
Boy, this should get some reply's
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billet reuseable oil filter
Better but billet filters also bypass.
I am going to run a 6" Oberg http://www.obergfilters.com/main.html . Currently I have having adaptors made that allow a summit remote filter relocator to screw on in place of the stock filter and then allow the lines to be run to the oberg.
In the oil lines I am also going to use quick couplers that will allow me to disconect-reconnect the filter in seconds to clean the screen in away from the car and under a bucket (I dont want anyone to say that the hydraulic quick couplings might fail....because they wont).
Cant say anything about the bean oil...good or bad.
Last year we ran Royal Purple full synth. A buddy gave me a case and couldnt justify buying other oil.
Might use it again this year unless someone has a good reason not too.
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(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381517_1609533.jpg)
Almost done!
(not really, waiting on the crank to get back is driving me nuts). I put the cases together and on the pan to make myself feel like I am further along then I really am. I have found that the build is mostly waiting for parts and less building.
On the motor you can see I have installed the APE main studs (DOES ANYONE KNOW IF THESE SHOULD BE LOCTITED?).
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381518_4278080.jpg)
Heres a shot of the smaller jets.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heres a list of some the stuff going into the motor so far:
Carrillo H beams
JE turbo pistons
APE tool pins
APE oil pump gear
APE main studs
APE cylinder studs
APE 65 psi springs
APE manual cam chain tensioner
APE roller chain conversion
.80 spacer
Oberg 6" remote filter
Billet oil pan
Billet slave support
Muzzy Billet clutch basket
MTC Billet clutch hub
Fierra SS valves - stock intake size - +1mm exhaust
Schnell automotive (new red hat holders) Head cut and blended for +1mm valves
Fast by Gast undercut tranny with billet big shaft
Marine Crank - Balanced, Nitrated and Polished crank
Case oil mods
If you see anything I left out that should be used let me know!
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Oil Mod #3
I dont recommend this on streeted bikes, but with drag or LSR you are good to go.
This mod blocks the oil jet to the stator. This is a stator cooler only and is not needed for lubrication.
While the jet is only about .030 this oil can be used elsewhere and is not needed unless you are planning to tour around with your biker buddies. (some people say its not even needed even if you tour because the stator doest get hot regardless but this is your choice).
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381579_5928349.jpg)
Remove the jet from the stator side (10mm)
You can install a plug or bolt in the hole (I think its 5X1.5 but not sure) but dont go deeper then 1/4". It may not be a problem but I can not tell if this passage continues somewhere else or stops here.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381580_6544612.jpg)
I used my mig gun (dont recommend this, you’ll need a steady hand or you will nuke the threads!) But I figured that if I blow the threads I will just get a bolt and be done with it. Fortunately it came out perfect.
Re-install with a bit of loctite.
NOTE:
I have decided to not give information about the 4th mod.
I dont feel it should be done, I am not doing it and would rather others dont do it as well.
If you are full hot on wanting to know I will post it but still feel it is not something you should not consider.
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Main stud installation:
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381760_6645070.jpg)
In the package you will get 3 longer studs, they go here. You can tell by seeing the extra meat on the other side of the case but is a pain when you need to do the install without the other side of the case on. I had to look up the location in the busa manual.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381761_7113582.jpg)
I took this pic because the only 3/8 24 nuts I could find were nylon lock nuts and these you can imagine would be stupid to try and install studs with. I ended up putting the lock nuts in a vice and grinding the tops of the nylon off with a 7" grinder with flap wheel (overkill but got the job done!). All torqued to 8 inch pounds and loctited.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381759_1387189.jpg)
Finished install.
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JH;
"All torqued to 8 inch pounds and loctited."
Are you sure about that torque? It sounds really low.
Regards, Neil Tucson, AZ
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Neil you are correct, it is 8 foot pounds (not inch, but that is still not much) although the cylinder studs just say to "snug" whatever that means!
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WHAT....nobody is going to get on me about
"Bean oil" ..............possible most of you youngsters have never heard of it.........good for your engine and good for your health.........it keeps you going and going and going.................
PS. Hotnuts, glad to see you are keeping Jay at APE in business...................they do make great stuff................................................................................
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the fourth mod is probably.......an additive.......
those are usually good for the LAST bit of hp.........
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the fourth mod is probably.......an additive.......
those are usually good for the LAST bit of hp.........
Uh oh.... here comes the pitch for Amo anti-galling compound.... :roll:
:cheers:
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Unh, JH, I don't want to sound too much like a predictor of doom, but should you really be showing us this photo, complete with bearing inserts on the bottom? It's like asking for trouble, isn't it?
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30381518_4278080.jpg)
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Thats a good eye SSS.
Lets hope not.
BTW:
Any ideas I had of keeping the main bearings went away due to the crank work being done.
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Interesting.......A friend of mine who follows Landracing.com on a daily basis, said to me
"how come on this Busa build we never hear any advise or statements from the really fast people
like John N, Jason and several others who race Busa motors" I tryed to explain to him that the "fast guys" race at a different level than most of the M/C LSR people. With the help of Denis Manning (BUB) M/C LSR is now at a higher
level.....it pays money.....big money...........................
If you want to have a go at these dollars, you don't tell your fellow racers your "speed secrets"
I find nothing wrong with this.....Let's face it most of us do LSR as a fun hobby and some work very hard on a profesional basis and set outstanding speed records....they deserve these records and the monies.
In my younger days I followed the European roadrace "circus" and your start money (your travel and expense monies) was only as good as your last race placing......so everything was kept a big secret from the other racers ......some time to the point of being really stupid.....Hey, it was all about paying your expenses................................
So leave the "fast people" alone and let them
set their outstanding records, they deserve it......
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And all this time I just thought they used stock motors and threw a turbo on... :roll:
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There is a fairly std recipe for a solid turbo motor, with variations on brand preference or the flavor of the month, much of it has been answered ad nausium esp on busa specific boards .
only some things like oil gallery mods are kept to the few that developed it and sell the finished product.
Most things JH has picked up on fairly quickly either by searching or asking , biggest difference is a fine job of documenting his efforts
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Maj, thanks for the kind words and agree that much of the "black art" of building these motors has been discussed many times in other places.
As far as JN and JM are concerned.....(and Maj for that matter...)
They have offered assistance on multiple occasions and have freely given info if I asked. Noonan even gave me his phone number and said I should call if I have any questions. JN was also helpful in me getting some assistance from APE and hopefully I will be able to make it up to him one of these days.
I am confident that if I posted something on this build that was wrong or they disagreed with, they would let me know (I may get an email or PM about it as apposed to a post here).
I give the things I have learned freely (and even offered parts to LSR people to borrow or for little of their value)....and will continue....and will offer assistance even if someone was actively making a run on one of our records OR a run at a record I was shooting for at any given meet....even if as a result of my help meant I didnt get the record.
I had someone help me, asked for nothing in return and now in my own way I (at least try) to pay it forward.
Something to consider......
The fastest vehicles out there usually have the fewest stickers.
A wise person once told me "land racing will make you a small fortune.....if you start with a BIG one!"
I disagree that the people that are the fastest dont tell because they fear they will loose money or they don’t want to have their records beat. I have found the fastest to be the most generous with information.
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Still waiting on the crank.....
Because its the weekend I got a little stir crazy so I decided to learn head porting.
Here is a list of things you will need if you decide to try this yourself:
Die grinder
carbide rasps (a few different sizes and lengths, their expensive...get ready to drop about 25-30 per, a 4”X.5 flame tip will get ya real close )
cylinder flap wheels (I am using 80 and 120s)
depth gauge (only needed to be accurate to the 1/16th, so you can use another method for measuring)
snap gauges
a reference head or really good map (I recommend using a reference head but I made a map that you can have if you feel froggy and want to jump).
A good light (didnt have but wished I did)
bench to work on at a height that is comfortable to work on......
The head I am using for a reference head is a stage 3 big valve. This is not a CNC done head but was hand ported by what many consider to be a master and was flow/velocity tested. This head is on our big bore motor (1507) and made 242 WHP without adders so it clearly is doing a good job.
Note that I did not remove the valves (no valve spring compressor) and did not finish the job yet....I will be having the exhaust seats enlarged for a +1mm and SS valves installed. Once the head is milled for the larger exhaust valves I will finish from the other side and blend the step made by milling process.
I can not really do any more until the head is milled for the larger valves and the old ones are removed.
With that....
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400078_5271561.jpg)
I started off by making a cap to keep excess bits from getting in the head....sort of a waste of time because the thing will be cleaned anyway.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400079_4710579.jpg)
Here you can see what some of the fuss is about. The head casting is rough.
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400080_985422.jpg)
Here is a measurement of the reference head (this is actually what I called "level 2" measurement.
You need to be very aware that these ports are not round...they are in fact oval so you will need to take measurements in X,Y and Z.
I did however note that there were equal amounts of stock removed from each side of the port and all ports were close to identical, so you dont have to worry about that
In this pic you can see that at a depth of 1.5" my snap gauge measured 1.85 for the "X" (it was considerably less for the Y and only about a 3/32 more than OEM (less than 1/16th per side on the top and bottom removed and really just enough to clean and polish) but also note that I haven’t got past the valve seat yet and this may change in the future).
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400081_2896205.jpg)
My first measurement was about 1/8th larger than OEM from the end of the port to about 1". Use your grinder to make equal depth grooves on either side of the port until you snap gauge fits. These grooves will let you meter how much stock you are removing from each side and how deep.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400083_1671141.jpg)
Once you establish how much stock will be removed and how deep you can blend the groove in by progressively removing material on either side of the groove until you can not discern it from the surrounding surface. Remember that there is very little material removed from the top and bottom (Y) of the port but in truth quite a bit came off the sides.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400084_7056513.jpg)
I recommend taking your measurement steps about every inch.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400086_2823822.jpg)
Its hard to tell but this is about 3" into the port. You can see the "level 3" measurement groove.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400087_1805713.jpg)
Here is the flap wheel I use to remove the chatter caused by the carbide rasp.
The thing looks big in the pic but in reality is only about .75".
I only hit one port for a minute to give you an idea....I will be much more precise once I get the other side done.
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2666/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30400088_6640322.jpg)
Here you can see a good bit of the chatter is removed and are starting to look pretty good.
I will admit that so far it hasnt been difficult to do this but take into consideration that I am copying note for note the work that was vested in learning the places to remove material and how to shape the port for optimum performance.
If you got the hotnuts I would say that porting your own head is very doable but remember without using a reference head or map you will be almost guaranteed you will find an oil/water passage if you want to do anything other than just cleaning it up.
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nuts... next time use bee's wax on your carbides... it will keep the alum from loading up on the cutter... by the way, most of the power is at the port short side, your waisting your time unless you get the valve out and cut off the guides and blend the port to the seats
kent
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nuts... next time use bee's wax on your carbides... it will keep the alum from loading up on the cutter... by the way, most of the power is at the port short side, your waisting your time unless you get the valve out and cut off the guides and blend the port to the seats
kent
Not sure why Kent but these dont load......every other cutter or blade I have ever used always seems to get loaded but these never have.
I do like the wax idea....will see if it comes in handy in the future.
More to come on the porting.....valves comming out this week.
Clearly see what you mean with the valve seat blending.
~JH
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wd-40 helps also.
JL222 :-D
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Stopped by the shop doing the +1mm oversized exhaust valve for us and they need to have the oversized valves going in the head in hand before they can do it.
Shoulda known.
SS valves ordered tomorrow.
Now its more waiting.
Still don’t have the crank yet!
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Nuts,
I may have missed it however what are you doing to the crank that you are waiting on?
J
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Nuts,
I may have missed it however what are you doing to the crank that you are waiting on?
J
Balanced, polished & nitried.
I remember somewhere you said dont lighten or remove the CB.....so I didnt.
~JH
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Did you send it to Marine Crankshafts?
John
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Did you send it to Marine Crankshafts?
John
Yes, and it arrived on the 12th or 13th.....I called to see if it had arrived OK (it had). Dave said his turnaround was 2 weeks but have not heard anything yet and its almost 3 weeks.
I was gonna give him a call around Friday-ish.
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:-D
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30408490_1121310.jpg)
The crank arrived today!
The journals look like mirrors, void of the tiny scratches it had before. The micro polishing looks great and the pics dont do it justice.
Also the non polished parts are now almost black and the thing stinks like a turd wrapped in burn hair.
This must be from heating during the nitride process. Whatever the reason to have the crank fluxed, checked for straightness, polished, balanced and nitrated for 200$.....
Seems like money well spent.
ALSO….
UPS saved me due to the fact that the house address was wrong from Marine, thankfully the local driver knew where “Jonny Hotnuts” was from seeing me work on the car in front of the house last summer. The address was 4220 on the box…..I live at 4240….not far but I am glad brown was on its toes! I am going to personally tell her manager what a good job she did (UPS is a client and I am there everyday) when I see him tomorrow.
All I need now are the bearings and I can get most of it back together.
~JH
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Here is more headwork and now that I have the valves out I can do. Here is how to weld up the emmission holes. I made a home made valve spring compressor out of a large C clamp and an old .75 socket (notched out the side to access the keepers). I must admit while was fairly ghetto it worked good.
If you are going to port a head you might as well weld up these holes. They are not needed and cause flow turbulence in the port. I have never seen any data regarding any HP gains by welding up the hole alone without porting but I am sure its better even if minor.
First....
(http://photos-h.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410607_905132.jpg)
Remove the valves. In truth you could do this without removing the valves but youll get bits of crap all through the head so its better IMO to pull them.
(http://photos-a.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410608_7824066.jpg)
Check out my duke PAIR blockoffs I made 2 years ago. Glad to see them go.
(http://photos-b.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410609_7427244.jpg)
Here are the holes in question. You can see that they are fairly large and even if blocked from the top with PAIR block offs will still trip flow.
(http://photos-c.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410610_5127913.jpg)
Get a set of large vice grips and remove the studs needed for the Pair valve. This will make the head look cleaner.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410611_3886149.jpg)
Scuff an area around the holes, I used an 80 grit .75 cylinder flap wheel on a die grinder, this will also be used later on.
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410613_6957845.jpg)
Weld up the holes.
I used a MIG with 100% argon and aluminum wire. Some people say that MIG guns dont work well for aluminum but I have found that if properly setup and the line is straight (providing you dont have a spool gun, and I dont) they can in fact work really pretty good but I long for the day I have a TIG.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410614_5087276.jpg)
After the holes are welded use your die grinder with a .5 carbide burr (flame) and remove the excess stock off the holes.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30410615_279497.jpg)
After you remove the stock with the burr you will have "chatter" use the 80 grit flap wheel to blend the chatter out.
I didnt spend much time cleaning this up.....
I have a buddy that is going to loan me a ported head so I can map the ports. I can not access my ported head on the 1507 without removing it and the valves. He has a few that are DOA but still have good ports to look at.
Should have it next weekend.
Good luck
~JH
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JH, thanks for the coninuing nice diary. I -- as well as lots of others on the site -- appreciate your efforts in documenting the work you're doing.
Speaking of the site -- thanks to you and others were given to Nancy and me today here at Maxton. Many, many times we'd look up and find someone that we'd never seen -- moseying up to tell us how much he or she enjoys the site, the diaries, the chat, and so on. Thanks to all of you folks.
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Now that I got the valves out I could work on the other side of the head.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30413254_6219303.jpg)
Here you can see a nasty transition from the seat to the port.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30413255_7537171.jpg)
Here the port is profiled, very important to have a ported head to copy if you never done this before (like me!)
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30413256_4108091.jpg)
Heres the start of integrating the guides. This made me sweat; I was always thinking it would break thought a jacket but my guide head told me it would be OK.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30413257_186210.jpg)
Here you can see the ports starting to take shape
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2678/69/50/1114496579/n1114496579_30413258_2063709.jpg)
After they are profiled I hit it with my flap with a little water. No more nasty transitions.
I wanted my air compressor to cool off but I am done for the most part. I can see how spending 700+ is worth it, I have a lot of hours in this head and I am not done but at least I know how to port one in the future.
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Here a few pics of piston prep.
This is ZERO fun.
After you get your new pistons (these are JE turbo) you will have sharp edges and thin spots from cutting the valve reliefs It is very important to round all of these out or they will develop hot spots and melty pistons.
I found it fairly difficult to find any info on what people did to their pistons to prep them so it was sort of what I thought would work as apposed to a standard method. Others may have a very different way to approach this......
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1138976430647_1114496579_30437386_6118862_n.jpg)
Heres a pic of the piston after I knocked off the sharp sides with first 120 grit then 360. I dont have a pic of the pistons before I did this but can assure you that the sides were almost razor sharp around the valve reliefs.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1138976470648_1114496579_30437387_2400247_n.jpg)
I hooked a small buffing wheel to my electric die grinder and started with red compound.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1138976510649_1114496579_30437388_6405260_n.jpg)
Here the piston is starting to look ok
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1138976550650_1114496579_30437389_351849_n.jpg)
almost finished
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1138983710829_1114496579_30437434_8167473_n.jpg)
finished
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(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs022.snc1/3071_1139053832582_1114496579_30437671_4548872_n.jpg)
After using a dingleberry hone to de-glaze the block I installed the spacer and checked my deck height clearance.....
really I just wanted to see the cylinders on before the weekend was over.....
Funny thing is that I still need to take a few steps backwards before I can get to this point but at least I am headed in the right direction!
Also-
This guy did a step by step video log of rebuilding a turbo hayabusa motor.
He has about 30 videos of the rebuild.
He did a few things that I didnt agree with but overall are very useful and a very valuable resource.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=mileageking&view=videos&start=20
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Jonny,
I know that this is not a new subject but I am asking again for help modifying a Hayabusa wiring harness for LSR. I understand from some online research that it is necessary to wire in some resistors, a TRE and pig tails for the starter button and ignition switch. What I need are some detailed instructions on what and where. Do you do your own? I have dug into the stock wiring harness in an attempt to do it myself and am now at a point that I do not want to go any further without guidance. Any ideas?
BHarmon
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Jonny,
I know that this is not a new subject but I am asking again for help modifying a Hayabusa wiring harness for LSR. I understand from some online research that it is necessary to wire in some resistors, a TRE and pig tails for the starter button and ignition switch. What I need are some detailed instructions on what and where. Do you do your own? I have dug into the stock wiring harness in an attempt to do it myself and am now at a point that I do not want to go any further without guidance. Any ideas?
BHarmon
I do my own and suggest you do also.
Even though running the electrical gauntlet of the busa is a pain the knowledge will serve you well WHEN you have electrical issues in the future.
According to one of the new rules in the book it looks like electric FPs will have to have a tip switch (currently I am sick as a dog and dont want to run upstairs to get my book) so this may be wrong meaning the tos or other device my have to remain. I see no reason why the stock TOS would not work if special attention was devoted in mounting.
This would eliminate one resistor or modded sensor.
-ALSO-
Because the ECU was hacked I now consider it to be a better option to build (or buy) the plugs and switch that allows you to edit the ECU and remove the 6th gear restrictor built in from the factory. This eliminates the need for a TRE and keeps the correct fuel curves in all gears (better).
The ECU editor will also allow you to do other things as well and may allow you to edit the ECU to remove the need to have the kick stand switch, clutch switch, TOS and other interlocks that were overirded by modding the harness to bypass. I will find out if the ECU editor will allow us to do this in addition to removing the 6th gear limit.
Otherwise....
There are a few things you will need to do to the harness.....
Will let you know soon.
Currently I am to sick (gripe de cerdo) too be very helpful.
~JH
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JH,
I am enjoying your engine work. Thanks for sharing.
currently I am sick as a dog
You haven't been kissing pigs have you?
Geo
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You haven't been kissing pigs have you?
Currently I am to sick (gripe de cerdo) too be very helpful.
"gripe de cerdo"
Translation:
flu of pigs.....
I have been learning to speak spanish the last few years and had fun today telling my Mexican speaking co-workers when they asked if I was "infermo" (sick) that I have "gripe de cerdo" and watching them run.
Funny thing is that if you have Mexican friends and they know you are ill every one will have a different guaranteed cure ranging from Menudo (tripe soup), bull nuts (huevos de toro) to eating limes and coconuts.
I think I will open a bottle of red wine and call it a night!
~JH
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Jonny,
As always thank you for the help, I was aware of the new tip over switch rule and see that as one less component to mess with, in some earlier reading someone did express concern for the TOS loosing contact on a rough course but mounted properly it should not be any different than on the bike? Reprogramming the ECU will be new territory for me but then so is modifing the harness so why not? Any help will be appreciated and I will advise any progress. I sure hope that you get to feeling better, the flu is no fun whether it is the pig type or any other.
Get some rest,
BHarmon
7077 H/BFL
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(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs025.snc1/4268_1151659187708_1114496579_30479789_2820542_n.jpg)
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs025.snc1/4268_1151659227709_1114496579_30479790_473212_n.jpg)
Heres Tim Schnell (red hatter and shop owner) doing the valve seats and opening the exhaust 1mm.
The tool in the second pic is a guide made for doing the busa head.....They didnt have one so now I own it (it cost 80 from Newen) but in the future if I need to do another big valve head it will only cost me 60 because I have the tooling.
The seats turned out perfect.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs025.snc1/4268_1151519824224_1114496579_30479302_2820772_n.jpg)
What has seemed like years I now have the head back on the motor.
The only thing I regret is that I didnt use the roller chain conversion.
Too many people said it wasnt needed but still I think I should of.
Here is a pic of my degreeing setup.
It took me 5 hours to get it done....but I could likely do another in 30-45 mins.
Part of the time was building a jig to hold the dial and the TDC bell.
~JH
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(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4230_1154997351160_1114496579_30492845_2868036_n.jpg)
If you rebuild a busa motor make one of these. This will allow you to prime the oil system. It is possible to have air locks in the motor and this will cause oil starvation in a new motor.
I also decided it would be a good idea to use only 1 quart of oil and a low mileage used filter and after running the pump for about 5 minutes I changed the oil and added a new filter. In the video you can see oil pumping out of the end of the clutch end of the transmission so I could not really run the pump fast in the video (one hand holding the camera) but if you put your thumb over the hole you can really build some pressure and circulate the oil in the system and through the filter flushing any bits of metal or dirt hidden in the motor through the filter before its fired up.
I have not heard of anyone doing this with the intent of cleaning the system it just seemed like a good idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83p-eN05pqQ&feature=channel_page
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4230_1154997311159_1114496579_30492844_3109139_n.jpg)
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4230_1154997391161_1114496579_30492846_5690861_n.jpg)
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this is a turbo motor right?..... on your april 5th pix you ported the valve guides to a sharp point....you better do something about that unless you are expecting the valves to stick in the guides and them smash into your finely ported head which will cause the rods to dent the bearing shells causing failure and eventually poking a nice window in your ebay cases....... not that i would have any first hand experiences in that kind of stuff happening....oh by the way, what kind of seat pressure are ya setting up?
love ya
Kent
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Kent, its hard to tell from the pics you mentioned but while thinner at the end I did not go below the face of the stock guide. If memory serves it was no less than 1/16" around the original hole.
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs018.snc1/4230_1155050592491_1114496579_30493094_6728228_n.jpg)
Using 65 psi springs.
~JH
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JN,
Your idea of flushing the engine before firing it is very smart. The best way would be some way to have high velocity oil surge through the system but doing what you are doing is miles ahead of not doing it. When Nissan was in racing they would do something similar by running the motor with the dyno for a period of time and they used a large 3 micron filter to clean the system.
Good thinking.
Rex
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65 not enough on the ex side..... 80 min
kr
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Kent, from what I understand 1 pound increase in spring pressure over stock will yield the ability to have 1 pound boost OVER what boost is capable from stock spring pressure.
Stock springs are 43 psi and are good to about 18 psi boost.
This would make 65 psi springs good for 22 psi over stock.
(*The 65 psi APE springs routinely measure 68 psi, weighing after break in.)
This would yield the ability to make 40 psi (if spring pressure per boost rate was 100% true).
While I dont know anyone making 40 psi with 65 psi springs there are people routinely making over 30 pounds boost without issues, and 30psi boost will make 475-550 (some have made over 600 with 30 psi) boost.
The motor should make 360ish WHP with 20psi. (10-12 hp per pound boost)
We only need about 325-350 to go 220.
This is…..if all my BS is correct.
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Theoretically!! :-D
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.02c (overpriced):
Drive pressure helps the springs out. Assuming you have a Super Wunderbar Charger, and can hit 1:1 drive pressure ratio, the drive pressure and boost pressure make it a wash as far as the valve goes. The same exhaust force is pushing the intake valve closed as the boost is trying to force it open. The exhaust valve always get a power assist closing from the gas flow.
I run higher rate springs to allow me to spin faster without float. I never saw an advantage to running more spring on a turbo engine if I wasn't spinning faster. But turbos often will move your powerband up the RPM range if you want, without cam changes. So it's not really the boost, but what the boost can help you do that requires more spring.
Your results may vary.
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Howdy All, :-D
The boost on the intake side of the engine will try and lift the valve(s) off the seats in an amount of force that is equal to the boost x the effective area of the valve. So, if you have an engine with an intake valve area of 2in2 and the boost is 15 psi, then the force is 15 psi x 2in2 = 30 lbs force is subtracted from the closure force of the intake spring(s). :-o
The opening point of the exhaust valve(s) is against cylinder pressure. The residual pressure in the exhaust on a turbocharged package (such as the pressure between the exhaust valve(s) and the turbine might very well cause some problems with the force on the exhaust valve(s), however that back pressure should be minimal in well matched packages. :roll: :wink:
That is a major consideration on most roots blown setups and most highly boosted turbocharged setups. The roots blown units are more prone to ding up exhaust rockers as a result (certainly on nitro loads of greater than 25% or 30%). :cry:
At least that is the story I would tell over BBQ! :cheers: 8-)
Regards to All,
HB2 :-)
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The opening point of the exhaust valve(s) is against cylinder pressure. The residual pressure in the exhaust on a turbocharged package (such as the pressure between the exhaust valve(s) and the turbine might very well cause some problems with the force on the exhaust valve(s), however that back pressure should be minimal in well matched packages.
This being said....
Would it not also hold true that a larger turbine would limit back pressure achieved vs a smaller unit?
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Unlike a supercharger, the exhaust pressure is pretty high at all times with a turbo when boosting.
When I made 50psi boost, I saw 90 psi drive pressure (pressure in exhaust, pre-turbo). A given compressor wheel likes a "correct" size turbine to match for the displacement and target boost. Think of the turbine as a motor; it need X amount of power to make your booast. Turbos have a range of exhaust housings (cheap) that you can use to fine tune and adjust RPM with. Bigger housings numerically reduce drive pressure and move the RPM up at the expense of low RPM performance and width of powerband. Bigger housings make narrow powerbands as a percent of the RPM range. So a .90 A/R exhaust housing might make 75% of max power for 33% of your RPM range, yet a 1.15 housing will only make 75% max power for 25%.
But it has been almost 30 years since I turbocharged a bike engine. I play with high boost diesel engines which are different. Life begins at 45psi. But when I turbo'd a 650 Kaw (30psi), I ran stock cams and springs, and spun the engine 3,000 over factory redline with no valve train damage.
Something I should have noted is that if you get piston erosion, the aluminum will become aluminum oxide crystals and coat the exhaust valve. Feels like sandpaper grit. It is something that can happen at high boost. High spring rates will help the engine run a little longer before the valves seize in their guides and bad things happen.
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all i know is what works and what doesn't..... when i ran off the shelf springs the valves moved on the seats and after 2 passes i would get blow by on a leakdown mostly the ex side.... fought the problem for a couple of years having to refresh the valve job after each race.... was a pain in the azz.... an old timer told me to bump the seat pressure to hold the valves and seats in place... Will at Kibblewhite made me some springs.... problem gone.... good luck using your "should be right" theories...
Kent
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oh! boost wasnt the problem!
kent
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good luck using your "should be right" theories...
Kent
Kent,
I only theorize about why it works not IF it works.
It is true that I dont have much in the way experience in building Hayabusa engines.....less the one that I just did. The only thing that made this possible is the vast amount of knowledge available from the years of tens of thousands of people tweaking the busa engines from '99 to present.
I dont mean to imply that I am not sure that 65 pound springs are OK. I only know that these are the norm for boosted busa motors and while heavier than 65 are available the #65s are in more high HP busa motors than any other spring rate and are not known to be a source of failure under reasonable boost conditions (not over 30+ psi)
I don’t doubt that you had issues…..all I am saying is that taking into consideration that your motors start with K are you really all that surprised?
JK
~JH
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I've watched this thread progress. Johnny, is it possable that your "knowledge" might come from folks who have never been involved in endurance type racing?
Read between the lines. Kent is not busting your balls he's leading you to water.
JMO as Kent & I do not know each other....
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I run more than 65 pounds of seat pressure on the exhaust side..
Kent and I have met.. :wink:
J
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Different engines need different tweeks. No doubt on that.
If someone with seat-time on your engine gives advice, that is a pearl.
I won't alter spring rates based on boost simply because I can't see a correlation on a turbo engine. That's me though.
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The way I read it the advice that was given wasn't due to boost or back pressure....
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nutz of those 10"s of thousands of busa motor building people....how many have built big turbo motors that have run for more than 10 seconds?..... your head will heat, your ported seats will shift, and your valves will pound them where ever they like..... and after they cool back down they wont be in love any more..... good luck......
Kent
PS... i build other brands also
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The way I read it the advice that was given wasn't due to boost or back pressure....
DOH! Sorry I guess I read it wrong. Wouldn't the first time. Sadly, it probably won't be the last.
I wasn't trying to slam anyone, just giving my experience, which isn't even based on the engine in question.
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nutz of those 10"s of thousands of busa motor building people....how many have built big turbo motors that have run for more than 10 seconds?..... your head will heat, your ported seats will shift, and your valves will pound them where ever they like..... and after they cool back down they wont be in love any more..... good luck......
Kent
PS... i build other brands also
Didn't intend to ruffle feathers Kent, and from what I hear (all good) you've got some very serious experience.
My experience is pretty limited to just blowing stuff up and melting things. :-D
And I get to start with an engine that was designed to sustain 1350 F EGT's and 22psig boost for hours, and I still break them.
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I've watched this thread progress. Johnny, is it possible that your "knowledge" might come from folks who have never been involved in endurance type racing?
Read between the lines. Kent is not busting your balls he's leading you to water.
JMO as Kent & I do not know each other
Yeah most people are 1320' runners and I will full on acknowledge there are some differences in building engines that are more suited for each application. I have a few "go to" guys that have built LSR and run busa engines that know the differences and I can get a straight answer from.....and I feel the info is a good as it gets.
The problem is when I dont ask the right questions!
I never thought KR was busting my hotnuts, and while is has a "pet the cat backwards" way of delivering info at times, the truth is that I like Kent and KNOW that he is trying to be helpful.
Make no mistake....even when I dont agree 100% with something someone (KR or other) says I still research it to find out if there is any viability.
Truth is.....
Looking into shimming the springs
~JH
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Make it easy for yourself, and contact Kibblewhite and get some springs made......they know what they are doing...and have been doing it since WAY back....I used their products in my 350c.c. CB Honda roadracer in the early 1960's..........(shimming can cause coil- bind)
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Kibblewight will listen to you and will give you the best stuff...... Will has been a friend and supporter of my projects for almost 20 years....one of my "go to" guys when i design a motor..... all except the last motor.....
kent
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nutz
i"m always helpfull.... its just weather you can handle the ball bustin while im helpin.... :-D
kent
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JH,
Thanks for posting your engine build, this has been a very informative thread. I appreciate that you shared the block prep work including the coveted oil gallery modifications.
Thanks to John Noonan and Kent Riches for offering their vast experience in turbo engines.
We have de-stroked a CBR600RR to run in the 500cc blown classes next year, all of this information will steer my project in the right direction.
-Scott
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ya gotta watch the cam timing with a de-stroker Scott....
kent
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About 30+ years ago I tried to put a small airplane turbocharger on a Honda 450. It did not work. I asked questions from our local experts and they said I was an idiot, but they began to talk among themselves about the subject. I listened carefully and still remember what they said to each other.
One mentioned heat buildup and valve seat and valve problems. He paid particular attention to removing metal during porting in areas that were not critical for conducting heat from the seats to the head. He said he would "splay" the ports. In the context of what they were discussing, this meant the port would be opened in an area where there was plenty of metal to dissipate the valve seat heat.
The topic of porting and compression was discussed. A fellow said that the blower did the work and it was not necessary to radically port the engine or build in high compression. He said a low compression engine becomes a higher compression one with a blower.
Cam timing and overlap were discussed. It was mentioned that shorter valve opening durations leave the valves in contact with the seats longer, they have more time to dissipate heat, and they stay cooler. Overlap was a bad thing, the blower would push fuel/air mixture into the chamber and out the exhaust. Increased lift was better than greater overlap.
These folks built different engines for blowers than they did for naturally aspirated ones. This may be old and out of date thinking, but it makes sense.
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The motor runs!!!
It would only run for a minute before it would die and it wasnt until I checked the vacuum line map that I found that the check valve was in the wrong place.....
Funny now something so small can make such a big diff!
Thought that the 8:1 CR would make it run bad without boost....seems to run very good even without it and with cheap gas.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs193.snc1/6493_1173709618955_1114496579_30562315_3919237_n.jpg)
I now have to figure out how to wire up this crap....
Ya wouldnt think it would be hard but....
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs193.snc1/6493_1173709658956_1114496579_30562316_6940265_n.jpg)
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs193.snc1/6493_1173709698957_1114496579_30562317_17885_n.jpg)
I opted for a "more suited" turbo.
This is a precision 5857 billet. The compressor side is still big but the turbine side is waaay smaller. Should make more HP and more friendly development from lower in the rpm range.
I am having Richard from RCC build a plenum…..I decided that I didn’t want to keep messing around with fitments and probs in the final hour.
It should be here any day.
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JH looks great, hope you post a video with sound when dyno or crank and run it up a bit.
Charles
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JH, how much boost are you going to put in it?
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JH, how much boost are you going to put in it?
I opted for the 3 bar microtek and have enough fuel for 500 hp.
Thinking now I sould of got the 4 bar and 700 hp pump (for future).
I am going to have 2 maps, one for 22 psi and the other for 28.
We should be able to get it done with 22 but if the motor needs more juice I will crank it till it goes or blows.
:-D
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JHN,
I like your plan!!!
"We should be able to get it done with 22 but if the motor needs more juice I will crank it till it goes or blows."
Rex
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I think you will be much happier with your new turbo.
Good luck !
Is she gonna make it to the salt this year ?
Best wishes, I can't wait to see how it does on the dyno and the salt.
Mike Reichen
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I think you will be much happier with your new turbo.
Good luck !
Is she gonna make it to the salt this year ?
Best wishes, I can't wait to see how it does on the dyno and the salt.
Mike Reichen
Mike, I must admit that this is zero hour and as long as everything went smoothly I would make SW.
Well......
I have been going snakes#%t the last few weeks with a "ticking" in the new motor. I ruled out valve train and cam chain so you can understand I was freaking out thinking it was a main or rod bearing going out.
Today after doing some research found it is likely the TB's being out of sync as the sound goes away as soon as the clutch is pushed.
Needless to say I can breathe and I can finish getting the motor in! As long as it doesnt break on the dyno we will be at SW.
(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs156.snc1/5812_1181143484797_1114496579_30593920_7136450_n.jpg)
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i just went on a post-reading marathon.
alot of awesome stuff in thise thread. very nice work, very good info.. some stuff i had not heard of or considered before.
i've got a little turbo gem in the making as well.. picked up some good info i'll use.
nice work man!!
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i just went on a post-reading marathon.
alot of awesome stuff in thise thread. very nice work, very good info.. some stuff i had not heard of or considered before.
i've got a little turbo gem in the making as well.. picked up some good info i'll use.
nice work man!!
Thanks,
Feel free to mail me with any questions. I have been going hotnuts trying to get the car ready so I have not been able to post new info....but the car is much further along!
Dyno this week!
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Got back from the dyno today.....
Found a bunch of problems.....
Throttle cable too close to header.....melty...
water hose to the block had loose clamp....steamy
Batteries not holding charge well.
Vac line to the gate too close to the turbo....again melty.
Was able to make 2 pulls after some break in (as described elsewhere on this forum).
1st = 280 whp
2nd = 310 whp
and then.....
after the pull noticed some water flow out of the bov!!!!!
Turns out I have a leaking intercooler core!
Took it off after I got home and poured out about a gallon of water.....
Motor is not hurt (thankfully!).
New intercooler on the way.
My dyno guy is now an expert with the Microtech software (required some calls).
Hopefully next session we will have fewer probs and more into tuning.
Moral to this story is:
Better to find your problems before you hit the salt.
All things considered 310 isnt bad (about 12 psi....and only 16 more psi to go) and no holes in the case.
YET!
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Thats about double what you had last year isn't it?
Fred
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Thats about double what you had last year isn't it?
Fred
Last years 1507 made 246 WHP (in bike) with race gas @ 800' and 70 degs. I estimate at Bonneville it was only making 2-210 car whp. I base my HP needs on the 246 HP @ 175 mph and this should give me some rope (and even better 'cause the car would of went faster if we werent making licensing runs!)
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we battled a bad inter cooler last year. Your lucky you found out a little early. How long will it take to receive your new one? :?
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we battled a bad inter cooler last year. Your lucky you found out a little early. How long will it take to receive your new one?
I had a PT1000 NDA'ed so it should be here Fri-Sat. Lucky that the PT1K is a very common size for "tuners" and they had a few on the shelf. This unit is a much better fit for the engine size and what little space I have to put it in. I am a firm beliver that everything happens for a reason.....this is an expensive little chunk but if it means not blowing the motor its money well spent.
~jh
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Made a new all steel throttle cable today.....lets see this one melt!!!
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(http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs194.snc1/6532_1191024931827_1114496579_30629656_827622_n.jpg)
You can see the new intercooler peaking out from under the electronics.
Way happier with the new unit....fits 110% better and wont have to worry about my flow becoming laminar though the core (bad). Also note the busa ECU says 11200 RPM....I flashed the ECU to 11200 from the OEM 10800 and took out 2 degrees and removed softcut.
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs194.snc1/6532_1191024891826_1114496579_30629655_279313_n.jpg)
A shot of the new dash.
Still needs a little work with wire management but that is for tomorrow.
Check out the billet gear position indicator on the top (reading N for neutral).
This unit is super cool and also provides negative output for each gear for gear based boost controllers or No2 setups. Even on my personal bike I still find myself trying to shift into 7th gear.....I know my pop would hit upshift at least a dozen times before the end of a run in the car!
3rd fire bottle Sunday
Dyno Monday
We leave Wed.
~JH
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For all who followed this thread it has been a long journey for me to build my first motor.
I honestly feel I could do another in 1/2 the time for 1/2 the money but that is a road I had to learn.
Dyno results.....
438 whp and plenty to go.
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It has been an interesting engine build.
Good luck, be safe, go fast.
Geo
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438 whp and plenty to go.
sounds like enough for you to need that cowl....
have a good one
Andy
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Way to go JH, see ya Friday
Fred
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THanks Geo, AC and FV!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7Cn5K6fHiE
WATCH THE INTAKE TUBE!!!
:-D
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Where are you doing the dyno work at??
Mike
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Where are you doing the dyno work at??
Mike
http://www.schnellautomotive.com/
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I thinkn youn need another clamp or two. :-D
Fred
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I'm too dumb to even know what we're looking at -- but it seems that there are a few worms and snakes crawling around there that might be heat sensitive.
Stan
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Lookin and soundin good, hope to see you in impound.
JL222 :cheers:
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Where are you doing the dyno work at??
Mike
http://www.schnellautomotive.com/
I thought that, but driving by perhaps 10 times a week, I couldn't tell from the video.
Mike
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Mike, have we met in person?
I have been at the NWBR for the last few years but my memory for faces and names last as long as the person is in the room.
We should have lunch sometime and BS about cars.
Portland people are the coolest.
~JH
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I don't think we have; I haven't managed to make it to the NWBR.
Lunch sounds good. PM me when you get back??
Mike
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ref you question in the spin thread
"For some reason in the morning the motor wasnt making power through 1-5....but for whatever reason as soon as I hit 6th is came alive. (any thoughts?)"
Was it not boosting, boosting a bit, rev limiting, missfiring, or just not making power?
Do you have a cold start map, low boost, low revs? (I've caught myself out with this one before now)
Do you have any gear dependant maps? Maybe you were stuck in one of them?
Mechanically, I suppose your wastegate could have stuck open, but it seems unlikely.
I'll bet an incar mic would need a bit of bleeping out during that run :-D
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Was it not boosting, boosting a bit, rev limiting, missfiring, or just not making power?
It started and ran perfect at idle, revved fine and seemed to be tip top. When the engine was about 4K it just seemed sluggish, especially compared to the runs before when the boost came on if felt like a brick to the face.
When letting off the gas between shifts the motor popped (exhaust) a few times.
Hit 6th gear and was like turning on a switch and started pulling like nothing was wrong (except I was only 133 by the second mile and needed more distance to make up the speed).
We noticed a fair amount of salt in the up pipes. I am not sure if this was a result of the spin or other. It looks like the motor was run a good bit with the salt in the intake but was very careful to make sure the intake was plugged every time the car was not running or being towed.
I shut off the motor as soon as the car went around 1/2 spin.....
I dont know if it was a cylinder misfiring due to salt, or the wastegate sticking open (felt like this was the cause by how it acted but.......).
Found once we got it home the motor wouldn't start....applied current directly to the starter....zippo.
Turns out the starter is blown apart internally and the splined starter shaft is missing all its teeth.
When the motor turned backwards it engaged the starter clutch and it must be a gear reduction starter cause it sound like a coffee can full of marbles when shaken!
50$ later and I have a new used starter coming from ebay.
The way I figure it, anytime you can break a part on a race engine and it only cost you 50$.....you had better celebrate!
I am going to see if a slipper clutch (overrun clutch) is available for the busa motor. I know they have them for GP-F1 bikes....maybe I will get lucky and someone is making one for the busa. It would prevent any damage in the future if I (or pops) was to drive backwards @ 200!
I'll bet an incar mic would need a bit of bleeping out during that run
Mostly sobs and whining.
Sooooo close......
~JH