Landracing Forum
Tech Information => Technical Discussion => Topic started by: DallasV on December 05, 2008, 11:16:12 AM
-
On one of the other threads I read hotnuts post about the cost of a Busa Motor. I am now curious as to find bargain basement HP. So if anyone is interested, how many $ per HP are you spending (If you don't wan't to share what you spend I understand, but this is for science). I'm talking complete engine only. We run a 500" chev in A/GR. Complete motor was roughly $18,000 in in parts (when we originaly built it) and builds about 950 HP. You don't need to show how much you spent or how much HP it makes but if you share the $ per HP it would be cool.
$ per HP = $18.94.
Thought this might be interesting and help folks who are trying to make power plant decisions.
-
$ per HP= 10.00
HP per cu. in.=2.25
4
-
$20.00 $ per hp
hp per cubic inch 2.0
Both of which are likely to increase
Later Rocket
-
I just bought a spare Kawasaki ZX10 motor for $700, without throttle bodies. It should make about 155-160hp, so about $5/hp. :-D
-
600hp turbo hayabusa engine package $15-17,000usd 400hp turbo hayabusa engine package $9,500
Base engine $1500 $1,500
Rods, pistons, trans mods $2,500 $2,500
Turbo system $11,000-13,000. $5,500
7.5hp/cu inch 5hp/cu in
$28/hp $23.75/hp
How much would a 500" BBC that made 3750hp cost?
Bike engines are cheap hp.
-
I start figuring the math . . .
and then I start to feel kinda silly . . .
So far, it's ~$30.00 per CI . . . for the crankshaft.
-
As a rule, it seems the "additional" horsepower cost more each, compared to the base hosrsepower. I guess we should plan for the maximum from the start to save money.
Stan
-
540HP / 91 CID / $7,400
~14$/HP
5.9HP/CI
-
600hp turbo hayabusa engine package $15-17,000usd 400hp turbo hayabusa engine package $9,500
Base engine $1500 $1,500
Rods, pistons, trans mods $2,500 $2,500
Turbo system $11,000-13,000. $5,500
7.5hp/cu inch 5hp/cu in
$28/hp $23.75/hp
How much would a 500" BBC that made 3750hp cost?
Bike engines are cheap hp.
jason,
Thank you for not only taking the time to put to print the true (cheap for a busa) costs yet also convey that a BBC engine build is expensive when done right.
Merry X-mas you Canuck.
J
J
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/victor_650.shtml
THis motor makes 650HP and sells for 12,800$.
The BB is cheaper.
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/victor_650.shtml
THis motor makes 650HP and sells for 12,800$.
The BB is cheaper.
Johnny,
Many times you have posted several intelligent posts however if you think you can take a 650 HP (engine dynoed) and run the same speeds with a 500HP (rear wheel Busa car (Jacks) then you are severely mistaken..
How fast has you car run with how much HP? I know you were saying 250 was possible ( I think that was you ) several times I have have bought Busa's (23 wrecked or running Busa's to date) for a very good price and either after selling the rest of the parts I have often been left (like many others) with a perfect running complete engine with throttle bodies, wire harness/ecm and gauges if needed..you are wrong about cheap HP period.
John
J
-
one thing you liars arent adding in is how much stuff you've blown up learning how to make that HP
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
Does it have to have the serial number on it? :evil:
Seriously, part of making this work is being in the right place at the right time. Same goes for guitars, antiques, and machine tools. But part of the hot rod credo is doing it on the cheap, keeping your eyes and ears open, thinking long-term, and most importantly, developing contacts in the business - that's how you get the cool price. The down side is that as soon as what you've been looking for becomes available, you have to be able to act on the deal with no questions, and cash in hand. This puts you at the front of the line on the next deal, and the cycle continues.
That's how I picked up my 1952 Fender Telecaster, my turn-of-the-century solid oak kitchen table, and my Lincoln welder.
Patience, perseverance, and cash-in-hand.
-
I'm only guestimating and I'm doing it conservatively but our Buick based V6 has only three figures in it and would be good for somewhere under 300hp meaning we're in the sub $5 a hp range........that's with a lot of time in the headers , a long time in the heads and porting and a deal of blood sweat and tears in the manifold a cheap chip and some HD valve springs.....We do however have another late model crate motor that has all the goodies ,stock it will only make a few more neddies but it will rev a lot harder, it cost nothing( sometimes ya get lucky) ...yet is probably worth between 8 and 10 $ausssie so that would be in the 20 to 30 dollar range........difference is the late model motor has probably got legs...the hot-rod motor is dying to get one out of bed :wink: :wink:
Now four months ago we nearly had parity...the Aussie was at 97 US cents ....right now it's down around 64...go figure...we ain't even in recession....yet.
So, that REAL CHEAP horsepower by your guys standards....
That's how I picked up my 1952 Fender Telecaster
bragger!....ah ha....I hope it gives you splinters.....gotta say I am glad I bought my last Tele from the states before the exchange rate slumped.. :-o
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/victor_650.shtml
THis motor makes 650HP and sells for 12,800$.
The BB is cheaper.
Johnny - I bought a running Busa w/salvage title that I ran at the last El Mirage meet for $2700.........there out there.
Scott
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/victor_650.shtml
THis motor makes 650HP and sells for 12,800$.
The BB is cheaper.
I have bought complete busa engines less electrics for $750-2000. as we throw away the pistons and rods and re-do the trannys i can buy a less than perfect engine for small money and have a great base to build on.
To date i have melted three pistons, one head, scored two cylinders, bent one shift fork, broke one chain, chunked three tires and destroyed one complete bike.
-
when you say how much to build the engine are you talking just the
long block and intake/injectors?
If so my 4 Cly. comes in at: 1260 hp/123 ci/$5400.00
10.25hp per cubic inch (approx.at) crank
-
I would like to know where you can get a complete busa motor with TBs, harness, ECU, dash for 1500$.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/crate_engines/victor_650.shtml
This motor makes 650HP and sells for 12,800$.
The BB is cheaper.
Yes it is cheaper to make 650 HP with a BBC, but that motor won't begin to be competitive in any car it would run in, so to make a BBC that is competitive with similar HP to displacement ratios as the 'busa would cost a lot of money as Jason pointed out.
In reality parts (rod, pistons, cams, etc.) all cost about the same for the same quality regardless of which motor you are building. For instance JE pistons for your 'busa, Buick, chevy, ford, ............... will all cost similar for custom made ones. The rod situation for custom rods will be about the same deal. If you want to make the most HP to be competitive this is the road you will probably have to travel.
c ya,
Sum
-
Cost is forgotten when you receive the red hat and hang the certificate. 8-)
-
That's how I picked up my 1952 Fender Telecaster
bragger!....ah ha....I hope it gives you splinters.....gotta say I am glad I bought my last Tele from the states before the exchange rate slumped.. :-o
Splinters - no. Headaches - yes. After about three years, I dumped it after realizing that I couldn't go to the bar for a cocktail without worrying about somebody running off with it.
But the cash went into the MGB, a decision I never regretted. Which is kind of to my point to JH.
Know what you want, establish a price in your head as to what you're willing to pay, develop your contacts, (it helped that I worked in and with a half dozen music stores and pawn shops during the '90s) keep liquid, and wait it out. I think that given the markets at the present, it should be sooner than later, and you will find that bargain busa motor.
Yep - I'm a Vulture!
-
Guys, please dong get me wrong, what I am saying is I 100% agree that a busa motor is a better choice to go fast cheap (it is my engine of choice after all) but all I am saying is that I honestly believe that HP for dollar you can make more power with a big block cheaper than the SAME HP in a busa, not who will go faster or break more records.
Also, you are correct that you can find “deals” and this is truly part of the game. This comparison should be based on “going rates” and MSRP to do a fair comparison that will apply to any Joe that is considering building a project and not just one time lottery win. I based the basic cost of a complete busa motor on what they currently and have consistently sold for on ebay and other places I have seen busa motors for sale. While there are exceptions to the rule from what I have seen the going rate for a complete car kit GEN I busa motor is around 2500-3000$ and a GEN II is 4-5K$. If anyone knows a place I (or anyone) can get a complete motor consistently for 1500$ please let me know (I have some people that would be very interested in getting a few). The example of the Edelbrock Musi 555 (making 650 HP) at 12800$ was the price listed on Summit Racing.
Again baring what motor will break more records I would like to see a busa motor making 650HP for 12800 complete.
-JH
-
when you say how much to build the engine are you talking just the
long block and intake/injectors?
If so my 4 Cly. comes in at: 1260 hp/123 ci/$5400.00
10.25hp per cubic inch (approx.at) crank
I think that what the cost for anyone to turn key the power at the crank. Meaning it should include fuel management, computers, turbos-blowers, water injection, No2, labor (personal and other) and anything else that would be required to reproduce the same motor and HP.
-
.................Again baring what motor will break more records I would like to see a busa motor making 650HP for 12800 complete.......
Well if the goal is to just make 650 HP with any motor or combo regardless of displacement or power adder you could do it for way less than $12,800,
Sum
-
Very true Sum, but I wanted an example that could be price verified and people wouldn’t say the engine was crap or used false claims of performance.
I chose 650 hp because the busa motor can make it also for a reference point (busa wont ever make 3000HP).
So far who has the lowest $ per HP?
-
Hi fellas. No doubt in my mind that any 16 valve 4 cyl.with a turbo on it,Busa,Honda VTech,the Mopar out of the Speed Demon and many others would win the HP per cube contest hands down. If your in the right place at the right time the cost might be good as well. John Rains lil v6 Buick makes 1700 hp. Small engines have less parasitic HP loss and just do better.
Having said that GIVE ME A SMALL BLOCK CHEVY ANY DAY. Sorry couldn't resist.
A cost is no object SB Chevy can make near 3 HP c.i. A 500 in. Pro Stock engine is about 2.65 They sound better also. Anyway fun stuff to pipe dream about in the middle of winter.
-
JNuts, the most I've given for a busa motor with everything, including all the crap I didn't use was $1800, and that one was in 2000 when there weren't a lot of them out there...
$ per HP... who cares... :-P :-P
$ per MPH, matters a lot more, the last ones are always more expensive than the first ones... :wink:
$ per RECORD... if you are keeping track you should find another hobby...
Like Larry said.... Red Hat ... yours or the ones you help facilitate... Priceless... :wink:
-
Hi fellas. No doubt in my mind that any 16 valve 4 cyl.with a turbo on it,Busa,Honda VTech,the Mopar out of the Speed Demon and many others would win the HP per cube contest hands down. If your in the right place at the right time the cost might be good as well. John Rains lil v6 Buick makes 1700 hp. Small engines have less parasitic HP loss and just do better.
Having said that GIVE ME A SMALL BLOCK CHEVY ANY DAY. Sorry couldn't resist.
A cost is no object SB Chevy can make near 3 HP c.i. A 500 in. Pro Stock engine is about 2.65 They sound better also. Anyway fun stuff to pipe dream about in the middle of winter.
I would like to know how much he spent on that Dutweiller built Buick too.
-
Making HPs is one thing but making HPs that will go 5 miles WFO and do it over and over again until you have the Red or Blue hat is what really cost money. Big dollar crank shafts, rods etc don't make horse power, they allow you to make horse power long enough to break records not just pull on the dyno load cell.
Stainless, how much hp do you make with the 1000 in your sons bike?
Rex
-
I am with STAINLESS I :cheers:---don't ever add up the price of toys----you can either do IT are you can't--- and have to stop or get killed by the spouse---well maybe only have to sleep in the shop or trailer :-D!!!!!!--spoken by one who is on the CUSP--over a set of better heads----any one want a shot at n UNLIMTED lisc. for a set of PRO STOCK HEADs? LOL :evil:
-
--- and have to stop or get killed by the spouse---
An interesting point I'll make here - A spouse may grumble or might not understand, but nothing will send my wife into a fit of anger more than me starting a project and not finishing it.
I still have to watch the pennies, but if I don't get this done, THEN I'll have hell to pay.
And regardless of how fast or slow I wind up going, hell is something I simply cannot afford.
-
when you say how much to build the engine are you talking just the
long block and intake/injectors?
If so my 4 Cly. comes in at: 1260 hp/123 ci/$5400.00
10.25hp per cubic inch (approx.at) crank
I don't think so add in the turbo-efi-intercooler and dyno time :-D
JL222
-
MM----You are so spot on----she "admires" that I have so---stayed after this for over 5 years it took me to get the "CAR" straight---littlerly and figureatively --LOL---she just doesnt understand why I now would like to go even faster than it took for me to get my HATS :evil:---I just need to find out what the RAT is capable of! :cheers:
-
Stainless, how much hp do you make with the 1000 in your sons bike?
Rex
Rex, the smartass answer is about 209 MPH worth.... :-o :-D but really I couldn't tell you... It was on the dyno in 2003 when we ran production class, made about 170... :| Only on the BWD since then, lots of changes and tuning. Dyno is OK for basic tune, but it is hard to simulate 200 with a NA motor, easier with the closed system (turbo) in the car.
-
JNuts, the most I've given for a busa motor with everything, including all the crap I didn't use was $1800, and that one was in 2000 when there weren't a lot of them out there
...$ per HP... who cares...
$ per MPH, matters a lot more, the last ones are always more expensive than the first ones...
$ per RECORD... if you are keeping track you should find another hobby...
Like Larry said.... Red Hat ... yours or the ones you help facilitate... Priceless...
There are many people that read this site that are considering putting a project together and never post. I have also seen projects linger on for years because finishing it cost more than could be spent, and usually is a result of not being realistic when budgeting.
A good comprehensive annalists of cost and how much money it would cost a person to build a competitive vehicle could very well save someone future heartache. It’s easy to say you shouldn’t worry about money and the future possibility of red hats is worth the sacrifice, I happen to agree but most people I know have too many bills and limited means to consider building a LSR vehicle.
-
JH---I admire your concern for your fellow racer---but it is almost always going to cost more than you can plan for or imagine---many choose the WRONG body configuriation to get it done. Many fail to consider it is TOTAL DRAG they are fighting, with their choice of trans, rear axe, and fluids---BUT, if one can THROW enough HP at it they can over come most things except litteraly flying instead of figureatively!!!!!!!!!! :cheers: but your choices can some what limit what you will have to spend!!!!!
-
Well said Sparky
-
I agree with Sparky and have a little to add.
Many people have unrealistic expectations based on their previous experience in other forms of motorsport.
The fundamentals of LSR haven't changed, we are fighting drag.
As Rex pointed out there are few disciplines that require an engine to run at WOT for five miles, if the horsepower solution is applied then an arms race with power on one side and reliability on the other quickly escalates , the more you spend on power the more you need to spend on strength and reliability to protect your investment.
Everybody wants to go 200mph , until they do, then it's not enough. Many people want to do it their "car of choice" , ...."just because"...Trucks, many many cars and roadsters have been pushed to outer limits of what would seem even plausible...to the casual observer it would seem that loads of power will get them there...they ignore traction and stability let alone aerodynamics, lessons that the record holders have learned slowly and mostly expensively.
On this site are just about all the answers, if not the answers then the questions to set you in the right direction. Budget racing is Formula V and Karts...this,LSR, is a strange search for something that most racers can't even quantify.
I have seen some cars here ( AUS) that were astoundingly fast for their cost , and some that are astoundingly expensive for their speed. Therein lies part of the attraction. Some are clever , some are hardworking , some are both and some are neither.
Determination, stubborness, genius , even stupidity and sometimes just plain luck are all part of the party....Jon Noonan hasn't gone over 200 200 times because he can find cheap 'busa motors, he boxes clever.
Do the research, almost nothing is new ,someone somewhere has probably thought of it already, learn the principles apply them and assess the results.........and?
.....................minimise drag!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Good thread Jonny. :wink:
-
Lets see
For my little bike.
I started with 25 hp spent 500 dollars and got 28 hp 3hp for 500
So for me it was over 166 per hp.
The next 10 will cost 5000 dollars that is 500 per hp.
10 MORE could cost 25000 dollars that is what ? 2500 dollars per hp . Now we are talking about real money
They say speed is just a question of money .I say lots of money and a ton of work still wont go fast enough.
-
have seen some cars here ( AUS) that were astoundingly fast for their cost , and some that are astoundingly expensive for their speed.
Dr.G this is SO--so true :cheers:
-
JNuts, the most I've given for a busa motor with everything, including all the crap I didn't use was $1800, and that one was in 2000 when there weren't a lot of them out there...
$ per HP... who cares... :-P :-P
$ per MPH, matters a lot more, the last ones are always more expensive than the first ones... :wink:
$ per RECORD... if you are keeping track you should find another hobby...
Like Larry said.... Red Hat ... yours or the ones you help facilitate... Priceless... :wink:
This statment is as true as it gets. I'll add blue hats too!
-
hey ya go nutz
200 hp
458 ft tq
0 sparkplugs
$29,000
kent
-
If you are prepared to think outside the box there are some REAL power per HP bargains to be had.
How does 2700hp for $520.00.......that's 0.19c per hp AND it will make 2700 hp day in day out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Parts-Accessories_Aviation-Parts-Gear__curtis-wright-3350-warbird-engine-NO-RESERVE_W0QQitemZ290284717322QQddnZPartsQ20Q26Q20AccessoriesQQadiZ2877QQddiZ2811QQadnZAviationQ20PartsQ20Q26Q20GearQQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Aviation_Parts_Gear?hash=item290284717322&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318
Admittedly it is pretty big & heavy, (2700 lbs) but if a single row can be put in a tiny Goggomobil anything is possible... see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2V7B7-gdRA
Speces on the engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_R-3350
-
With the Duramax diesel engines, the first 600hp is cheap, but the next few hundred are expensive.
Pullouts in excellent shape are from 3-6 thou, I usually pay $3000 for a dressed engine. MSRP for new is $11000.
Tuning adjustments alone will bring the engine up to 500-550rwhp through full length exhaust and air filter, which is conservatively 600hp at the crank. So about $5/hp. But to bring the engine up to the 1000hp range takes about $20,000 worth of goodies added.
Guess if I was smart, I'd run two engines. :-D
-
hey ya go nutz
200 hp
458 ft tq
0 sparkplugs
$29,000
kent
Kent what do the batteries and controller cost? Or are they in the $29k price?
458ft/lbs at 1 rpm!
-
$56.25 / HP
I must be sick.
-
The radial engine car fowarded me to a radial powered bike. I runs and rides different than the car....JN would love it..............FR would want a class :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :cry:
-
The radial engine car fowarded me to a radial powered bike. I runs and rides different than the car....JN would love it..............FR would want a class :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :cry:
Here is the Radial bike link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU_HYXOgbRw&feature=related
And yes I would ride it... :cheers: Racing it might be a problem, can you imagine Tom having to verify each cylinder after a record was set.. :-o
-
Of course you can try these:
24 chain saw engines on a motorcycle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDWqJe1dCgY&feature=related
GSKR1000 go cart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poyzytv6YqM&NR=1
48 cylinder motorcycle
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXGYWSIePf4&feature=related
Geo