Landracing Forum
East Coast Timing Association => ECTA General Chat => Topic started by: TRNorBRN6001 on November 06, 2008, 10:59:43 PM
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I have a little winter project to finish up on. Thought you all might enjoy some pics.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0171.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0173.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0175.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0176.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0177.jpg)
Think it'll buff out! :-D :-D :-D
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Couple new valves, some lapping compound and it'll be good as new Gary :D
If it was a stock head, you might be able to get a replacement on ebay for less than you'd spend fixing it. I bought a bare head for $100 shipped, another complete head w/o cams for $200 shipped.
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Yep, it's a Carpenter head. It's a little erroded (oxydized) by the exhaust seats. Don't know if they will build that up a little, sink the seats or just tell me my head is junk. I have access to a stock head, worst case scenerio. I still really don't know exactly what happened. The exhaust valve damage on all but the missing one was after the fact. I never found the missing valve, might have vaporized or shot out the exhaust. I was running on C16, very,very,very rich, and 12 deg of timming out......................with a 120 shot that put out about 100 actual HP. The motor normally runs 210HP on pump and upper teens low twenties with oxy fuel and timming. It was set up real rich and 0 deg advance for right at 200HP.
Nitrous is down right evil, but very addictive!
Gary
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What is very rich? 5:1 ? It actually looks lean, like a 7:1, sometimes 4:1 can destroy like lean.... how is the fuel flow and N20 flow over time? If all that is good, I would go to plugs, what were you running. Retracted gaps? minimizing the hot spots like electrodes is very important over time, not essential for drag racing but in LSR is way important.
The missing valve mystery may be solved by looking at the stem, when N20 trims one off, it looks like a clean torch cut, the others I'd probably ask to see the plugs, including the survivor.
Fixing the head will probably cheaper than making a new one, but let a trained professional make that evaluation. Show us the plugs and pistons for fun... :-o
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Yep, it's a Carpenter head. It's a little erroded (oxydized) by the exhaust seats. Don't know if they will build that up a little, sink the seats or just tell me my head is junk. I have access to a stock head, worst case scenerio. I still really don't know exactly what happened. The exhaust valve damage on all but the missing one was after the fact. I never found the missing valve, might have vaporized or shot out the exhaust. I was running on C16, very,very,very rich, and 12 deg of timming out......................with a 120 shot that put out about 100 actual HP. The motor normally runs 210HP on pump and upper teens low twenties with oxy fuel and timming. It was set up real rich and 0 deg advance for right at 200HP.
Nitrous is down right evil, but very addictive!
Gary
What type of fuel system? Those stock pumps/lines just can't keep up sometimes over a mile long run ...
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There's nothing wrong with that head -- it's just been changed into the Briggs and Stratton "Easy-start" model where the exhaust valves stay open a little to reduce the tug needed for Mom to start the mower. See, Gary, we understand your methods -- it's easy to get along with an older battery and starter this way.
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Yep, sure does make it easier to turn over. No more 24 volt system needed!
I was running an after market Muzzy fuel pump (Walbro GS....) It is suppose to be rated to 400 HP and Muzzy stealth system which is a "wet" type nitrous application. The cylinders and everything looked pig fat, so it did not seem like it leaned up. I have read articles by Dough Meyer on Fuel pump types and pressure and it does not seem that the pump would be over taxed. I sprayed 4th, 5th, and 6th. It is on a progressive system as well start 25HP to 100% in 2 seconds. 4th hit real strong and brought the front tire up a little, 5th hit good but did not feel as strong (might have started to loose one cylinder by then), 6th felt like I lost 2 cylinders from the get go and the RPMs started to drop (I shut it off ASAP) and coasted.
Head also had a full ceramic coat. If the exhaust side would not have tagged the pistons, they would be in perfect condition. Cylinder block in good condition, but the head gasket was blown across all 4. Maybe EFIR did not take timming out?
Any ideas, questions, comments would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks you all,
Gary
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Thanks Stainless, I'll post up pics of the pistons and plugs when I get home. I can not remember exactly on A/F ratio, I'll have to look it up, but I would say somewhere around 10.8:1 -11:1 on spray.
Thanks again,
Gary
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Bummer, Carpenter is proud of those heads :|
What was your pill spread?
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Pill spread? 2 Vicodine, 1 flexoril, 3 skelactin every 2 hours taken with a couple shots of crown! Just kidding, don't know what that means.
Yep, Carpenter is very proud, but he is known for good numbers. I'd probably be a jerk though and bust the dremel out on the stock head!
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"2 Vicodine, 1 flexoril, 3 skelactin every 2 hours taken with a couple shots of crown!"
Ah, yes -- the old saying is once again proven -- "Better living through chemistry!"
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Ah, yes -- the old saying is once again proven -- "Better living through chemistry!"
That's what my Family Doctor says about my Cardiologist. As she puts it "His philosophy is better living through chemistry versus dropping the weight and living a healthier lifestyle". I am trying both! Better odds. :)
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LOL. What I actually meant was "what size nitrous and fuel jets are you running to get to 120hp?" Some folks call them pills, and the difference between nitrous and fuel jets - the "pill spread". 120hp might be 42N/46F, others 42N/38F and so on. Running an NX Piranha nozzle, my old bike made about 100hp with a 38N/34F, 6psi fuel pressure, and -8 timing.
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N28/F32 Funnel type, I believe, jet for steel line (Muzzy Stealth Kit). ~7 or so PSI.
Thank you much Dean, it is Dean correct?
Gary Dow
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If that's what Muzzys specifies, I'm sure it's fine. I was gonna suggest you flow check these particular pills, but from the pics it looks like 3 of 4 cylinders got too hot, seems unlikely too have so many pills so far off. Maybe like you say the EFIR flaked, I know they are unreliable. Crud in your fuel, clogged fuel filter, crappy nitrous fuel pump, argh.
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Yep, the EFIR was developing a low RPM glitch, the C-16 was suspect, fuel solenoid might be getting old,............... Oh well I'll try to go through everything and clean it all out. I can't complain too much It has been a great street bike, lots of dyno time, a few Texas Mile events, couple Maxton showings, and just a wee bit of dragstrip. I'll throw it back together and see if the old 12 has a couple more runs left before full street retirement.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0217.jpg)
Maxton 210.xxx, that fat boy is trying to get tucked!
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0170.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0169.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0166.jpg)
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(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0167.jpg)
Plus one bonus picture, If you guess who the other person is I'll buy you dinner if I see you at an LSR event!
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0156.jpg)
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Thanks Stainless, I'll post up pics of the pistons and plugs when I get home. I can not remember exactly on A/F ratio, I'll have to look it up, but I would say somewhere around 10.8:1 -11:1 on spray.
Thanks again,
Gary
Gary, the ratios I referred to were the N20 to enrichment. N20 should be considered a stand alone system. You get your motor running correctly without it, put the correct ratio in and usually the motor lives for a while. Never a guarantee. It was hard to tell if the exhaust valves were running close or if there was just a little tattooing going on with the N20. Your stuff just looks like it ran a little lean. I would suspect fuel first. didn't see the plugs yet but when it gets a little lean, hot spots develop and the N20 injector turns into a torch.
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Looks to me like the exhaust valves were hitting the pistons and it was detonating.
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That dude in the red hat is of course Doug Meyer. But seriously, do you know where JC set your piston-to-valve clearance? How do your rod bearings look?
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I think it was 52. I think the tagged valves were after whatever happened. The intake side can be seen a little if you hallucinate. I think the first valve to come apart was the missing one, it cracked the surface of the piston, then maybe forced the others to hit and jump cam timming. The exhaust hit very hard and the intake side lightly.
Another speculation is that the intake charge might have pre-ignited as the exhaust gasses were exiting during overlap. it maybe hard to see, but the only area really burned/oxydized is right inbetween the exhaust seats. 3 of the plugs are toast I'll post that in the morning one still good and had 6% leak down on that cylinder, go figure. I would not have believed it after looking at the valves and piston tops.
I am still very suprised it did not go through a piston, they are only off the shelf JE's.
I will pull the bottom end, should know how the bearings look tommorow and will post pics if you like. At least the crank and rods are not sloppy to the feel. :-D :-D :-D
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Hey Gary, thanks for the link to the site.
I was running a 4 pill spread on my bike too. 20n 24f i believe my fuel pressure with the NOS pump was 4 psi. never been on a dyno, but Schnitz says that a 60 shot(approx). im trying 24n 28f next yr when i get it back together(80hp)
do you know if we can somehow hook up a timing light to make sure the efir is actually working on our bikes?
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I am not sure but it would give a little peace of mind. I am probably doing away with the EFIR and maybe looking to see if powercommanders ignition thing will work with an old USB.
Couple pictures for you all. :cheers:
My Kinky Cam Chain
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0201.jpg)
Pistons are out
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0206.jpg)
Skirts are not too bad, they are coated.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0203.jpg)
Better pic of cracked Piston.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0211.jpg)
Valves are out.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0218.jpg)
Three Toasty exhaust valves.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0219.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0222.jpg)
Rod Bearings, slightly hammered............but not too shabby!
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0204.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0205.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0212.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0213.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0214.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0215.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0216.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0217-1.jpg)
Guess thats about it, did not want to abuse everyone anymore with picture so I did not post the main bearings. They were all mint. Crank was mint as well. Maybe this post will help some one with a nitrous addiction! :mrgreen:
Gary
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lmk what you find out about the power commander. Im thinking that Im going to replace my old pc3r with a usb version so I can hook up a quickshifter in addition to my Schnitz PPI (coil kill). Im hoping that will completely eliminate all pops and bangs when shifting and allow me to use less kill time(which also helps with bangs).
your valves have red on them... is that a special coating? were they all stock?
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Yep, a little coat job. Kind of looks like old finger nail polish now. You would probably like an airshifter better for the strip and LSR. Ask around the Dragbikezone though and get everyone elses opinion.
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I have an airshifter now. it uses the Schnitz kill box (PPI) to kill the coils, and works flawlessly on NA runs, and only had small pops when running the 60 shot. But when I added the second stage (dry kit) it started going kaboom on the shifts. I dont like that, so I want to add injector kill to my coil kill. This would mean the only "loading up on fuel" that would happen would be from the wet nitrous kit instead of fuel from the nitrous kit and the bikes injection system. I asked Ryan Schnitz about using the PPI on the injectors too(splice the wires from the coils to the injectors), but its not possible. He recommended I get the quickshifter and have it activated by the coil kill box as it also controlls the switching valve on my air shifter. I just have to splice into the wire to my switching valve to activate the quickshifter to kill the injectors at the same time as my coils are killed. hopefully I worded that to make some sense.
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It does make sense. Did Ryan think it would help? Muzzy sells the digi-Kill, but I think your way is cheaper. I got no love from Muzzy when mine gave up the ghost. :cry:
KZ you ar da man! :mrgreen: Can't wait to see you do a little LSR. You have to bring your dad as well! How far is Maxton from you? :cheers:
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Yeah he thought it would help the backfiring. the digikill is a lot more money, and is overkill I believe. I dont need another box on the bike. it has enough and is getting more lol (2 step this xmas) I believe I just need to swap the pc for a newer one and download the correct software. I dont need the little sensor for the shift linkage since it will be activated by the existing kill box. I want to upgrade my old power commander anyway, more features and I had one wknd where it had a corrupt map. lucky I was running NA. looking at the log files after, I was running 13.3:1 AFR with 5 degrees advanced ignition on 87 octane at just higher than stock compression ratio. :-o good thing JE builds tough stuff lol
Maxton is a 22 hr drive, roughly 1300 miles according to mapquest, so you can see my excitement over the new track in Maine! I would love to get to Maxton, but competing in an event in Maine is a much more realistic goal for the upcoming yr. The old man will definately be coming too. I think he might disown me if I tried to go without him, and theres no person I would rather bring anyway. I want him to get into it too, but he doesnt want to go over 150, so is content with 1/4 mile. maybe we could talk him into it after we get him to an event. He would fit into an XL TFA shirt :-D and it wouldnt be tough to switch his bike around to be ready.
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Too cool! :-D :-D
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(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0219.jpg)
Gary, this is the typical cut you see when the N20 spray is ignited by a hot spot in your chamber. My guess is the plug electrode was glowing and turned your spray into a cutting torch. See the nice cut pattern on the head and stem.... Your ex valves looked like they have been running close a while, you are lucky that the #3 didn't beat the cylinder, head and piston to death, it probably cut like the #4 and hit the piston just right and went out the open hole.
Turn up the fuel pressure, on the jets you were using I'll bet you were on the lean side for extended spray time. You didn't mention your N20 pressures so it is hard to know if your plan is high pressure (gaseous) or low pressure (liquid). But generally if you spray a long time, the bottle gets cold and you spray liquid, (read more weight, leaner mixture) always good to plan for that. If you are using regular plugs, change to retracted gap when you are spraying for a long time they eliminate the potential hot spot.
Scott, turn up your fuel pressure also, most of the suggested numbers for the kits are for drag racing, they are too lean for LSR, your motor might live on the edge for 10 seconds, but not for 20... :| My longest spray time was 58 seconds, 9+ lbs. of N20.
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So what type of plugs should we run in our bikes? (You run cr10ek like me right Gary?) stock is cr9ekpa
I log my passes and I was running as rich as Gary when using nitrous, so I dont think its an issue. my fuel pressure is non adjustable anyway. its the NOS low pressure pump. 15760
I wonder if we should be looking into stainless ex valves...
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Thanks Stainless, yep I'd say I was perty lucky all around. Yeah, I thought you all would like the partialy torched stem. The other valve pic did not come out as well, but it had a similar look. Nitrous pressure was around 900psi. Spray for 58 seconds :-o :-o :-o
Yes, KZ I use the CR10EK plugs. I run full stainless valves. I have heard stock ones on spray can be bad juju. I know three people who have lost stock exhaust valves at the stem and it made the piston and cylinder had look like hamburger meat.
I have a fuel pressure regulator on the nitrous system. I'll bump it a little more.
I realy appreciate it Stainless, thanks KZ and Dean as well.........Plus I like SSS humor.
Gary
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Stainless valves will cut just like the one in the picture if your spray turns to torch. We used Champion G58R and G56R if I remember right, been about 5 years since we ran juice. They are retracted gap like the picture below. The problem with overall AF ratio on spray is how little either of the 2 variables, enrichment fuel and N20 need to change to cause catastrophic failure. If you enrichment pump is fixed pressure at some pressure less than 10 when flowing you might want to look at a different set up for LSR.
900 is a good liquid number, the bottle will go toward that number as you spray so plan for it.
Good Luck with your projects guys, and welcome to LSR... 8-)
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I kind of cleaned the head up a little today. I'll probably send it off in the next couple days to see if they will fix it. I do not know when they replace the seats if they would sink the exhaust seats a little and blend it down or build the oxydized area up and clean it up. Anybody have any experience?
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0225.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0226.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0227.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0228.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0229.jpg)
Thanks again you all,
Gary
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I've welded up much worse in aftermarket billet drag racing heads for a funny car and cast aluminum heads for a stock car. I don't see where there should be a problem welding and remachining yours.
Pete
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When we killed an expensive head with N20 it came back like new, looked like they ground out the ugly porous stuff and rewelded in material, then recut for seats. We sent ours to Indy Head if I remember, that was 8 years or so ago, lots of racing and parts since then so maybe someone else did it... :| Yours looks better than ours did, the ugly one was after it cut the valve, it just kept going till it made its way out of the head, nice plasma cut hole. Thousands of dollars worth of N20 experience on this site, Joe A, chime in here...
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Thank you much, makes me feel a little better.
Sorry, finally remembered to take a picture of the plugs. :cheers:
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0231.jpg)
Flash on camera lightens them up a little, they are a bit darker.
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Not trying to hijack too badly here, but why is having the fuel pressure under 10 psi a bad idea if the AFR is fine?
oh and Gary, you might have seen on bikeland, I emailed Ryan Schnitz about retracted gap plugs. he suggested using CR10EIX instead. any comments from the LSR guys about those plugs?
thx :)
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Gary, excuse my ignorance on your projects but I don't get on here to much but to read some of the posts.
What engine are those heads off from? They really look like the 3.4 Taurus SHO heads and if they were three cylinder head they are a great match by looks for the 3.0 SHO motor. Both were yamaha motors.
Ernie
Car 1147 F/Pro
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Not trying to hijack too badly here, but why is having the fuel pressure under 10 psi a bad idea if the AFR is fine?
At a minimum you need adjustability. The higher the pressure you use for enrichment fuel the more consistent the spray volume will be. I would be interested in anyone's recommendation for AF but I would think you would want to be at least as rich as recommended for high HP Turbo. I would get the motor running right without N20 and then get the correct ratio for the N20 system on the fat side.
oh and Gary, you might have seen on bikeland, I emailed Ryan Schnitz about retracted gap plugs. he suggested using CR10EIX instead. any comments from the LSR guys about those plugs?
thx :)
Well you saw my recommendation, I'll let someone else chime in. Any exposed electrode will give you a hot spot if you get a little on the lean side. Did you tell Ryan you were gonna spray for 20 or more seconds.
Gary, every plug I've seen with the electrode burned off took a valve and often a piston with it. You were at the lean limit, if you were monitoring AF when this happened, I would like to know what you saw...
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Gary and I both have Kawasaki ZX-12Rs. his is a 1375 big bore(2.4mm) /stroker(4.6mm), and mine is a 1287 big bore(3mm)
I told Ryan that I wanted to convert my nitrous drag bike over to LSR, and that someone had recommended retracted gap plugs. I reminded him that stock plugs are CR9EKPA and that I had been using CR10EK. I didnt mention the duration of time I would be spraying as I assumed he would know based on what "LSR" is. I just asked what he would recommend. its quite possible he only has drag racing expirience, but generally he knows more about this sort of thing than I do!
What sort of pump would you reccomend? the upgraded pump most get for my system is the "holley blue pump" which I believe is only 5-7 psi (looking at my fogger jetting chart)
I have neen told to aim for 12.6-12.8:1 AFR on motor and 11.7:1 AFR spraying a 100 hp shot
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Scott Holley red is a 7, blue is 15 if I remember right. We used a blue and a regulator for the N20. Used our red to feed the carbs, now it feeds the EFI pump for the Busa motor.
Just treat your N20 system like it is a stand alone system, make sure your fuel pump can stay up with the demand.
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No datalogger, but its on the wish list along with a few other things.
Its all good info, I like a little hijacking. It helps me a whole lot as well.
Yep, we both run the old ZX-12's, sorry I should have mentioned it in the beginning.
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Hey guys, still on the quest for info about plugs. Some guys on another forum suggested surface gap plugs, which are rather pricey, and im still not sure if they would work. there is no ground electrode sticking out, but the center electrode is kinda sticking out compared to the retracted gap plugs
pic: (http://www.sparkplugs.com/productImages/1/4216.jpg)
now that thats out of the way, and if we just go with what you originally suggested, would we need say a G510R? instead of a G58R or G56R since we currently use CR10EK? the heat range has me a bit confused....
I couldnt find anything besides a G57R however... maybe im looking in the wrong spot...
(http://www.sparkplugs.com/productImages/2/657.jpg)
http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=G57R (http://www.sparkplugs.com/results_cross.asp?pid=G57R)
about the pump, I used the NOS pump that came with the kit, so i assumed it was able to keep up. i used the jets that were with the kit. i went to the Holley site and their blue pump has a max psi of 14. so im guessing i should get that, and set it the regulator for 12psi, see where im at for AFR, and either fine tune with jets or regulator psi(as long as i dont go under 10) or both right?
:cheers:
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Very good info KZ, I think in the old days the heat range for american standard went down (9 would be colder than 10) and I think Japanese stuff went up (10 would be colder than 9). I do not know if they have changed that or I always get things backwards.
Yep, the surface gap plug is perty interesting, don't know if my weak stock spark could jump that gap very well.
I just might be cheap and go with the retracted gap plug.
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OK guys, we have talked about testing in the past, and how to figure out if you are spraying the correct ratios and how to ensure the fuel supply if correct.
Read this thread, somewhere in it another thread is referred to, read them both.
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,4761.0.html
Then search the site for N20 or nitrous and read those.
One of the things you will see is that everyone blows up stuff on N20, your motor is living on the edge every time you push the button, because it takes such a small problem to turn everything into a disaster. But wait :-o that is racing :roll: if was easy everyone could do it. All you can do is your homework, learn from your mistakes and everyone else's mistakes so you don't have to repeat them.
Know what mixture you are putting in your motor, that is the first step in understanding N20.
Use the coldest plug that will fire your motor for racing when your aren't on the button. If you are riding on the street or drag racing and using the button a couple seconds at a time, almost any streetable plug will work, the longer you hold the button, the more dangerous that electrode becomes.
We killed several motors with kit instructions and parts before we figured out that drag race numbers will live for a 1/4 mile but not through the 2 let alone the 5. Sure there are a lot of kits out there these days, dry, wet, 20 shot, 100 shot... :|
If you are going to LSR N20, understand what you are doing, you might be lucky for a while, but it will trip you at the worst time.
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Gary,
WOW!!! Thanks for posting the pictures. It could have been a lot worse. As others have said the head is totally fixable. You will have her running again in no time flat. I sure she will be running strong by March.
Ryan
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TRNorBRN6001 ,
From your pic's, it's looks like (in my lowly opinion) you didn't sink your pistons far enough in the hole, the valves tapped (due to float?), you detonated and then NOS/plasma cut the valves and pistons. You stayed in it even when you felt it nose over. I've seen 5 of those in the last 3 years. Welcome to Nitrous.
Guy
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Thanks Guy, your opinion is highly valued. 5 in 3 years, ouch. I am 2 in 5 years, I'm catching up though......................................but no where near the amount you and the real LSR community spray. I'm still in the little leagues! :cheers:
Ryan, thanks for the vote of confidence. Hope to see you at Texas or Maxton soon.
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Thanks Guy, your opinion is highly valued. 5 in 3 years, ouch. I am 2 in 5 years, I'm catching up though......................................but no where near the amount you and the real LSR community spray. I'm still in the little leagues! :cheers:
Ryan, thanks for the vote of confidence. Hope to see you at Texas or Maxton soon.
If you spray, you pay and yes, you ARE part of the "Real" LSR community.
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Thanks Guy, that means a lot.
Gary
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Just a little thought. Ed and I have both gone tango uniform at speeds in excess of 200 (Ed at about 200 and myself at about 280). We have both decided NEVER TO DO THAT AGAIN. The way we both drive now is that "if it ain't perfect SHUT OFF". That has saved our butts (and parts) more than once. We have always felt that drivers are like light bulbs-screw one out and screw another one in. At high speed, no driver can do anything good. All you can do is screw up. The best thing that you can expect from a driver is not to do anything bad. If you think I'm wrong, have at it!
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Would a water injection system be something to look into here to keep things safe?
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Water is a placebo for safe running of nitrous in my lowly opinion.
Safe running is the proper A/F (nos/C-16) ratio with the proper amount of timing taken out during the run. Now that's the million dollar question. What is the safe ratio to give you the right amount of power for the run. I keep learning what ISN'T the safe ratio, injecting water just means you need more nos/C-16 to get back to your original power level and injecting water just means you have another variable to worry about. Just 1 more thing that can go wrong and I have enough things to worry about during a run. If you can cram air/fuel into a motor at 22:1 or better using a turbo and generate over 500HP, then you can cram nos/c-16 and do the same thing it's just skinning a different cat.
But I keep blowing stuff up in my quest to go faster so what do I know?
Guy
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Water is a placebo for safe running of nitrous in my lowly opinion.
Safe running is the proper A/F (nos/C-16) ratio with the proper amount of timing taken out during the run. Now that's the million dollar question. What is the safe ratio to give you the right amount of power for the run....
Guy
We have never tried water but I have to agree with Guy :wink: especially because it is exactly what you will hear from me when discussing N20.
You can put "X" amount of volume of stuff in the chamber, if it is the right ratio, it will not run hotter, it will just make more power. Eliminate the things in there that create hot spots, sharp edges are your enemy.
We managed to stop burning them down regularly, but then we found the bending point of Carillo rods... :|
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Ok, what about water/meth injection? I was reading that it raises your octane level and richens the AFR, allowing more timing, and more power while remaining safe. if we just added the water meth injection and left timing alone would it be down on power or is that just with straight water?
thx!
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ATTENTION Narcs!
He's talking about methanol -- alcohol for racing fuel, not crystal methamphetamines -- bad biker drugs.
Just thought I'd clarify things for the lurkers.
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Ok, what about water/meth injection? I was reading that it raises your octane level and richens the AFR, allowing more timing, and more power while remaining safe. if we just added the water meth injection and left timing alone would it be down on power or is that just with straight water?
thx!
Excellent Idea but...
Now you need a tank, pump, regulator and jet nozzles. Again, just 1 more thing to go wrong and I have enough to worry about. Besides, who's going faster than me using this technology? If it was so good, I would think someone would have already been there and done that. Theory is great but real world reigns.
Guy
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kzscott........im convinced that you can make anything work.....:)
many say.....well if you can make x amount of hp with turbo then you
could do the same with nitrous.........
probably.........BUT.......where are those people proving this out...??
imo...... hp isnt hp..........
ie there have been plenty of folks saying they can make 4-500 hp on 1300 cc
with nitrous...progressive etc.......havent seen them on the salt yet for some reason...
there are some quirky things that happen with large load of nitrous relative to the base
hp of the engine in normally aspirated form..........
imo........namely........taking something that is coming out of the nozzle at around -270 F....
going through phase changes from liquid to gas.....and trying to integrate it into a manageable mixture with air...and fuel....
and trying to form this mixture in the confines of an intake port in close proximity to the intake valve
and combustion chamber.....
what kind of "slurry" do you suppose is making it into the cylinder......the fuel droplets from a typical
nitrous nozzle are huge....abit better of course from fuel injector....but what happens to them at
-270 F in the intake port......especially at those relatively large loads I was speaking of..ie at O2-Fuel
loads that produce 3-4 times the hp of the base engine.....
then add in some...."water".......
all I can say is good luck.......
imo ......at much smaller loads of nitrous........survivability is infinitely more attainable....
its just tough for some folks to live within their means.......like our country......more is better and too
much is just enough.........
PS....and stainless....isnt it interesting how you can find the bending point of a rod with nitrous...
but then nearly double that nitrous hp with turbo and same rod stays true......:)
guy makes some great points imo......you can get real involved quickly with abunch of nitrous control
garb....lots of electrical dohickys....than try to control yet more liquid flow stuff for water/methanol.....wow....
NOT at all saying this cant and shouldt be done....infact the more naysayers...possibly the more reason to go out
and pursue it.......so what your made of......be a pioneer.....many of us will be watching......
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I guess the main reason for bringing it up was that from doing a bit of research(google: water meth injection :-D) about it, it seems pretty common on turbo street cars. I know thats different, but its the same general idea. making more power safely by raising the effective octane level, and lowering EGT's. I think it was close to 10 points in octane, and something like 200 degrees lower EGT. It sounded good to me anyway :-D. I dont really want to push the limit like Guy (well not for a few yrs) but I think something like this would be good for myself and maybe Gary to stay at the approx hp level we are at, but do it with much less risk of melting parts!
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Joe, yes it it strange that less HP with N20 can bend one .... and more HP on boost won't ... but I think you nailed it with the "slurry" comment. Hey, if this was easy, we could all use it successfully
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do you think that nitrous has more peak cylinder pressure during combustion and maybe turbos have more average cylinder pressure?
hence the reason that nitrous is harder on rods?
then again i have seen one racer window half a dozen sets of cases with a turbo bike.
tuned properly either will live.
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stainless...jason...my point exactly.....:):) (and the fact
that the rod comes back to top against a little cushion)...
with enough nitrous........your often trying to manage varying amounts
of detonation....(provides abit more peak cylinder pressure .... :-o)......
scott how much increase in hp are you looking for relative to the base
engine hp..?......
and.....scott how long are you wanting this to stay alive.......near max power and speed for
120 ft.........or for 5280 to 11,000 ft.....?.......:):)
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A stock zx12r makes about 165hp. Garys makes around 200 NA and Im guessing mine is around 185-190. Looking to add 80hp for initial LSR testing and possibly 110 later on. 1 mile run, but I can delay the nitrous based on gear position. possibly a 2 mile course is being setup that I want to try
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scott, so you are looking to keep it near max power and speed for around 60-120 ft
ie the length of a maxton, texas etc timing trap.....ie you will need to maintain that
speed and power for around 60-120 ft
some venues base records on a timing trap that is 5280 ft long......of which there
are 3 of them that start after the 2 mile mark.........meaning you may be near max speed
and power for 2-3 miles........
this is a distinction that can drastically impact many factors in your setup.......:):)
scott, so your looking for around a %50 increase in power.......
have you considered trying to master a 25% increase first...?...:).....
Joe :)
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We were adding about 100 HP to a 140 HP motor, the compression seemed to be fading in #2 a little more than the others. Dropped 10 psi in the qualifier, another 10 in the record run. Turned up the juice, a little, :roll: went 230.5 against the 228, dropped another 10 compression so I turned up the juice again to make up for the loss of compression and to try to get a 235.... :| at the 4 we had a little issue :-P and this happened. The piston looked like the others except for the marks when it went to the top. Figured out where the compression was going during the autopsy. Counter weight tagged the rod, it cut the case in two... :-o However I was on track for a really great run 8-)
Joe, you are on the money about pressures with N20, as I said earlier, you are always on the edge of disaster with N20, it just takes a little issue to burn one up, or maybe start a bend in a rod.
This one ran about 19 miles after the rod started bending before it quit... maybe those guys make pretty good rods
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not me, but Joea has a ton of time slips on the juice. I'm keeping close to the vest on this subject. Nitrous tune-ups are a very personal subject. What works for one, doesn't work for others. Joea has it correct, what do you want? 1/4 mile, 1 mile or 2-3 mile? Each one is different. I'm struggling to push the 400hp barrier so everything I know is a waste because I really know nothing at all. This next year is a whole new animal for me. New system, new tune-up, new everything. Doing the same thing and expecting different results is a fruitless endeavor.
Good luck on your quest with the juice.
Guy
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ditto Guy.....
im more than happy to share knowledge....but i always do so with
a big grain of salt......
i very much want to help as many folks as i can....but as with Guy...I find
it very, very tough to try and tell someone what to do with nitrous with
extreme specificity........d/t SO MANY VARIABLES THAT ARE NOT THE SAME...
from application to application........and the significantly narrow window of error....
Guy, Stainless and so many others have a wealth of info.....and all know so all
too well the devastation that can ensue....
and yes Scott, what you and Wayne did is great....would that setup work at Bonne..?..
application specific..
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Ive allready done 90 hp drag racing(60 wet, 30 dry)(which got me to 161mph in 1320 feet :-D), and Im going with 110 this year(80 wet, 30 dry). I want to use the same basic setup for lsr. initially just use the wet shot, and if all is well with that, maybe try both stages. Im looking at trying an event like Maxton, but if the new track in Maine is set up for 2 miles, then thats where I will run because its so much closer. The reason Im asking so many questions is to try and avoid potential problems that might come up from being very new to all of this, but still wanting to go very fast. I agree I should start out conservative, but thats just not me :-D so Ill try to learn as much as possible before I try it. I greatly appreciate all the help you guys have to offer :cheers:
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Thanks Guy, Thank You much JoeA, it really means a lot to have you fellas help out like you do. I completely understand how all these different venues are very different animals when it comes to set up. Thank you all much again and do not hesitate to comment on stuff and share your knowledge. I really enjoy it.
I completely understand where KZ is comming from, just wait till he runs an event, he'll really have the Bug then!!!!!
Hope to see you at Maxton in April Guy, and maybe sometime this year I might make it out to the great white dyno to spectate first and maybe get a chance to meet you JoeA.
Thank your brother JoeA for the CF slope Busa tank, it will stay in the LSR community and be used for a designated race bike my Brother and I should have ready this next season.
TWO FAT BOYS DREAMING OF GOING FAST
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/100_0491.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/100_0493.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/100_0495.jpg)
The Big guy in the picture is my brother Robert. He is 6'6" and around 400lbs. We are hoping to have him run 200mph on the new nitrous bike. His best at the Texas Mile was 191 on his regular street burgandy and gray Busa in the back ground. It is a very conservative 1397 with around 185-190HP and 285HP on N2O.
Gary
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Thank you as well Mr. Guthrie and your wife for them cookies, I was very sad I did not see her at the Texas Mile this last event. Hope all is well and hope to see you soon. JohnnyCheese was tickled pink you helped him out so much!
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TFA, where do you big boys get leathers? I am 6ft, 378 hope to be a nimble 330 to 350 by Maxton in April.
Not that I will suit up again for 2 wheeled competition, but nice to have options. I have not raced a bike since 1992 (a nimble 250lbs back then, prior to the big 13 broke bones get off)..
Charles
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I am 255lbs and 6', It ain't easy finding leathers for us big bone folk! Cajun, you are proper TFA material, might have to see about bringing you a T the next time we run at Maxton! :mrgreen:
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you guys have the unfair advantage........movable ballast...
as aero changes.......you guys can move the center of gravity...
and for that matter.....the center of pressure.....at will during the run...
i see a protest in the works...
trn if you use the ratios stainless mentioned proper timing and most of all
proper fuel
you will be fine......people want to out smart the basics and get into
trouble...
kzscott........i never hurt anything with nitrous at the dragstrip or the
street .....
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I have only ignited aluminum pistons using nitrous. Get your cylinder pressure high enough (300 bar), and some solid EGT's (1800+) and the nitrous becomes a catalyst for turning your pistons into fuel. Makes great power, but a little pricey. A/F ratio doesn't even matter if you have the right conditions, the fuel is just an innocent bystander. I know I have some pictures somewhere...
Beauty behind nitrous is it's not affected much if any by poor DA.
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haha yeah I thought 161 was fast :-D cant wait to try a track 4 times longer! Nice looking busa you and Robert are putting together Gary. is that a Doug Ray arm or a Coby Adams?
Joea, your kidding right? guys blow stuff up all the time where I come from lol :-D Im thinking that if I can run that much nitrous on 91 octane in the 1/4 that switching the fuel in my little tank for the wet kit to c16 should keep it a lot safer for 1 mile right? and since these event are in the states I can put 93 in the bike tank for a couple more points of "safety"...is that enough?
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Wow---what a great thread and I am not a Busa or Kawa kindda guy!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D
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Wow---what a great thread and I am not a Busa or Kawa kindda guy!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-D
Hey Sparky, if it makes you feel better my bike had 4 wheels.... :roll:
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kzscott......you have a good grasp of nitrous at the dragstrip..congrats...
no im not kidding, ran many years at dragstrip and street on abunch (relative term) of
nitrous on aircooled stuff and never hurt anything.....
first time at Bonn with same setup detonated at some point soon after the about the 1/2 mile
mark.....
tried to help someone on this site in distant past, and they refused to listen to my humble
opinion on plugs and fuel, as they were under the care of a "big name professional race shop"....
it was very frustrating to then have to help this fellow sort thru the aftermath of detonation.....
kz.....(modification) I cant say enough about running a fuel like c-16 or better for ALL the fuel....and taking out plenty of timing out.....and getting the nitrous to fuel ratios like stainless mentioned..im sure you will succeed with flyingcolors at a maxton or equivalent venue....with the kind of loads you are seeking...
Joe :)
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I was going to put a little bit of Juice on my car motor next year and run the fuel class on occasion,, biut after reading all these posts and N20... man it just confirms to me what little I know...
Also that in reality N20 is not cheaper HP..the way I see it you get more HP for the $, then you blow it up and spend the $ you saved to fix it... so round about all manners of HP may cost the same ???
Charles
( I was only thinking of a little juice in high gear only at Maxton, the last 1/3 of the mile)
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I put a 125hp kit on my motor once. Worked nicely. But after a while the car began to slow down a little. Not fresh anymore. It was very easy to go to the larger nozzles. Got the speed back. For a little while. Then it was easy to tell what was wrong with the motor. The moral here is N2O is not to be used by lazy people. Otherwise it's probubly OK.
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cajun, it can certainly be a great way to make cheap hp.....
and I cant emphasize enough about nitrous hp compared to
base engine hp.......as it becomes tough NOT to want to really
push that %.....and imo...there in lies the trouble...simply much
less forgiving...like certain medicines with a very narrow
lethal dose to effective dose range....trying to manage it
with egt;s and a/f can be simply futile....
for many years i though i couldnt afford to go turbo.....i could though
afford a new set of pistons or two each year......it was fun and educational...
eventually it became ridiculous.. more than just pistons....
the continued pursuit/desire for higher speed does not diminish...though imo the predictability
and management of higher and higher nitrous hp to base engine power desired...(ie greater than
200% increases) like higher and greater and greater crack cocaine needs.....becomes fraught with bigger lows than highs.....
turbo on the other hand has such a larger therapeutic range of hp increase.....kinda like alcoholism...
can go many years managing the issues....before terminal trouble.....might lose a relationship
or two along the way with either......
actually....turbo is like having an awesome wife.....much more forgiving and tolerant....
when asking for more....
nitrous is like marrying Lorena Bobbitt....
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240, that's all I want is 240. yea, that's it, just 1 more run, that's all I need, just 1 more run. I know I can do it this time, all I need is just 1 more run. Buwahahahaha!!! Nitrous, must have more nitrous just give me more nitrous, Haaaaahahahahaha.
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nitrous is like marrying Lorena Bobbitt....
that is some funny stuff there...
JonAmo
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I think Guys been dancing with Mr. Brownstone.....I used to do a little but a little wouldnt do it so the little got more and more, I just keep trying to get a little better said a little better than before... :-D
yeah they werent lying when they told me speed was addictive lol. ok you have me convinced, Ill run good gas on both fuel systems for LSR and pull the same amount of timing as I do for pump gas at the drag strip. I like keeping pistons in one place/piece at a time. I do plan on doing an all out turbo build someday, but I cant afford that now. I have some chassis and electrical work to do/buy and that will use up all my bike funds this winter.
thanks guys :cheers:
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Curious what do you all think would be the best way to go about tuning for N2O for a 1 mile course? I would think monitoring EGT's would be the best method to keep from burning things up. With that said what is a good temp to shoot for with extended N2O use? I have heard different opinions for a safe zone from the low side of 1350-1400 to the higher spectrum of 1500 with 1600 running into the hot zone and bad juju.
Also curious what the simplest and best methodes to manipulate (lower) EGT's? I would think introducing more fuel (richer mixture) would be the primary way and I would guess that to some degree lowering the pressure ("taking out timing") would help as well, but to a lesser degree than either a richer mixture or physically lowering the piston.
I am however concerned (but more than likely wrong) that if I take out too much timing the mixture will still be burning while the gases are leaving the exhaust and the incoming charge may be ignited during overlap. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I am also curious at what pressure should I be concerned with. I also wonder if there is a formula to calculate that cylinder pressure using base compression and a said amount of O2, similar to the turbo guys calculating by atmospheres/psi?
So many questions so little time!!!!!!
I only want 5mph faster this season, 10mph next, 20mph next, .........., ............, ..........., ........,
............yes, very addictive!!!
Thanks you all,
Gary
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With my little short stroked "E" motor I would like a bit more pull in high gear only.
I was thinking maybe a 50HP shot plate system under my carb.
What do I need to do ?
My rotating assembly is all forged. 4340 ForgedCrank, Forged H Beam Rods, Forged Pistons
Brodix 18 degree heads with SS Ferrra Valves, Full Roller set up, Shaft Rockers etc..
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trn....did you see my post about tuning with egts..or a/f...it
can be futile....not saying to ignore it...but its not as simple
as tuning by the numbers........
you can detonate and melt at egt's of 995 F and at 1100 F, and
1300 F.....
its also not as simple as..lower cr to x...retard timing by x amount...
its very application specific...
Dahlgren and practical clinical experience has proven to me that
you can detonate with a rich or lean mixture....and some....
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I completely understand, JoeA.............but those are the only tools I have and I have to start somewhere. Just looking for a little base guidance. At this point in time N2O records are within my grasp, so I do not want to give up too soon. Most turbo records are well out of my reach. It ain't easy being a big fella and wanting to go fast. I also have a realy soft spot for my old 2000 ZX-12, even though I know the Busa is the platform of choice. I would like to catch a record with it before I retire the old kawi to street duty. I have ran 3 Texas Mile events and 1 Maxton event with a 70 shot (actual 68HP increase) of N2O lots of Dyno time, and about 3500 street miles with out any problems. I increased the nitrous to 120 shot (actual increase 100HP) took out quite a bit more timing and made it significantly richer, but something did not work and I'm just trying to figure it out.
Mr. Guthrie, I am still in the denial phase. :-D :-D :-D
Thank you very much again,
Gary
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I increased the nitrous to 120 shot (actual increase 100HP) took out quite a bit more timing and made it significantly richer, but something did not work and I'm just trying to figure it out.
Hmmmmm, me thinks you found your "Burn that sh#t up" zone. Like Joea, myself and others have said, you are now going to have to learn how to tune YOUR program on your own. It's not that we don't want to help you, it's just that we CAN'T help you because anything we say won't mean diddly squat because your program is your program. Even if you and I had the exact same setup, same equipment, same everything, you and I would still have issues because of our riding style differences. Even that makes a difference on how our setup needs to be. When we activate, how long we activate, how's the weather, how old is your fuel, is the moon in alignment with mars? Nitrous is just so finnicky. One day your tuneup is great and the next you just blew up cylinders 3&4. There is no rhyme or reason and even begging will not help. You my friend have entered the "Burn that sh#t up" zone. I'm trying to push a 200+hp tuneup and break a certain barrier I have encountered. I'm trying a completely new system for 2009 in May with the "Hopes" that maybe, just maybe I'll get a run that will propel me further in to the record books. It took me 2 years before I even came close to Joea's record at Bonneville. When I did break it, it came at the cost of another blown motor. I've blown up 5 more in the last 3 years so call me crazy but...I just love the juice.
I will tell you something a very wise racer told me and it's stuck. GO FAST FAT. Live to race another day. Wayne Pollack was that racer and because of him, I've learned to go faster but lethargic. Each time I push the envelope I burn it up. I pull 20 degrees out and run an A/F of no higher than 11.5:1
There, now if you use my standards, you'll still burn sh#t up, that's nitrous. Detonation is the killer, control that and you have the world by the horns.
Guy
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So, now that you burned it down, you need to do a proper autopsy and figure out what you were really doing. It will cost you some time and maybe 5-10 lbs of N20. Duplicate your run, without the motor of course, just the N20 system. Weigh your bottle accurately, spray at your usual pressure from your normal bottle position. (If you use medical grade it will be fun) Then do the same thing for the same exact amount of time with the fuel. If you do it simultaneously it will be the most accurate test you can do. Catch and weigh the fuel, do a little division... :-o
A/F and EGT can be helpful, but when you push that button, all that does not really matter... know your enrichment ratios. Then when you fry one up, you can check your baseline tests and see what happened, usually it is a minor thing like fuel pressure changed a PSI or the N20 solenoid froze open and fried you when the gas shut off... :-P Test... Test.... Test... Know your equipment and its capabilities.
Guy is right, Joe is right, everyone that has chimed in is right, you have to do it yourself and not rely on someone else (kit manufacturer) to do it right for you. What worked in one situation may not work in another, and turning up the juice will not always give the desired result. :| Your situation may require the most power you can get for the shortest time (drag racing) and the motor will live, but hold the button for 5 more seconds and you detonate and burn to the ground. Eliminate your hot spots, those are the places that detonation looks for, finds and then ruins your day.
Let us know what you find
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trn, have you individually flowed each jet....?...ie in as close
to real world conditions as possible...ie what each jet flowed
when entire system activated and other jets also flowing simultaneously....
for me that for sure is the start......prove to the best of
your ability what is coming out of your delivery system...dont
believe the manufacturers claims of jet flow consistency.....
that is always revealing.....youll find a 30 jet that matches
the flow of a 24 or 28 jet...etc....
timing is another key factor in the holy grail of nitrous....
its not as simple as x amount of retard for x amount of nitrous...
what compression ratio...?...cam timing..?
plus lets step back, at one point...you were setting records with nitrous,
had a "successful" program...you employed these same concepts to your
last "tune up"....and it blew up....thats why its so hard to give advice..
youve already eliminated one tune up that wont work with x nitrous hp
to base engine power ratio....and at least one that worked...
i cant give you guidleines of egt-a/f to tune with because I abandoned
those methods
I think you will find as I said earlier.....best success running richer
than you imagined....with more ignition retard than you imagined...
and fuel quality is imperative......and the nitrous to fuel ratios stainless
mentioned.....
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and trn, please...dont fall into the mentality that the
world needs another hayabusa to set a record..........:):)
there is nothing better than your kaw for doing this...
and additionally....more power to all you guys wanting
to set a fuel record with nitrous.....certainly alot of potential
there.....
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Wow, very very helpful. I am going to have to absorb it and then start from the begining. Who knew nitrous could be so much fun!
Thank you all again, every little bit realy helps. Sometimes you have to tell me 2-3 times over for it to sink in, I am starting to get old.
Guess it's time to set up a science project.
Thanks again,
Gary
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Thanks for the words of encouragement JoeA, I'll try my best!
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Just looking for opinions on this possible arrangement.
Run 'regular' gas (whether it be pump gas, ERC-110K, whatever etc) as the fuel that is burned when not on the juice.
Have a seperate supply of 'fuel' distinct and different the regular 'fuel' that is supplied while on the juice.
For the fuel to use when the juice is activated use an alcohol (Meth-, Eth-, Prop, or Butanol {pick one}) in the right proportions to the extra oxidizer supplied.
It should 'burn' cooler as compared to 'gas' and avoid the detonation woes? Will the equivilant same amount of RWHP be made?
What are the thoughts?
thanks,
Lloyd
ps Guy, missed you at Maxton in Oct, but did see Wayne burn some Al.
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joea,
I am new to nitrous and bought a wet system to install. I read several times on this board about flow testing the jets by some means of verifying their accuracy. Can you point me to a link or info sheet or describe how this testing is done. The more I read on this board (thanks Slim) the more I realize that LSR is a whole different way of approaching using it. I will be looking to run nos in the future with the ECTA.
Thanks in advance
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Wfo, Joe is offline, but I noticed you were online, so I will offer you the info... :roll: re read this entire thread, it points you to other threads you should read. The info is here, no one has put together a Primer on how to run N20. The reason is in this thread. Testing is time consuming, you will waste 10 lbs of N20 and save yourself about a grand :-o on motor parts.
Half, the more variables you add to the chamber, the more likely it is that you will have an event. It has been tried, both successfully and unsuccessfully. Our car has 2 separate fuel systems.... :| Give it a try, let us know.
Bottom line... know what you are putting in your motor before you do it.
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Racer or wanna be?
Fuel control, gas, nitro or juice all have the one common characteristic. It has to be correct or you will fail. Each one has some unique quality that you may have trouble isolating but you have to attempt to understand it.
Successful racing includes a lot of drudgery, hours of flow bench testing and nobody stopping by to tell you how great your last run was.
I have seen that one of the great pitfalls is trusting what the number is on a new jet. The only way you know what that jet will flow is for you to flow it, label it and package it with a numbering system that only you need to understand. Just picking out a jet that just came to you from a manufacturer is like blindfolding yourself and digging into a piggy bank.
You have to know what u are using. It seems like a mystery when a different cyl burns down after a jet change. Develop a system that allows you to know exactly how much fuel is going thru each jet. If you don't you are bound to burn down. This can be costly if u farm out the work. Look around, find a flow bench and get started. You don't have to have the latest equipment. Any system is better than none. You just have to buckle down and do your own research. As you learn, more and more things will become apparent. Things that were mysterious to you will become matter of fact.
Change only one thing at a time. Science has taught us that we can not reliably draw a conclusion when we change more than one item.
It all takes time and is boring but it's a necessary step to success. The hours of tedium lead to moments of success.
FREUD
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Stainless and Freud,
I am going to reread it tonight and try to absorb it. I do have a 110 Superflow and my own NOS refill system and don't mind wasting 10 lbs or whatever it takes, just looking to get educated as much as would seem necessary before using it. Thanks, I really appreciate the help.
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wfoe etal, .......there are plenty of folks
who want to prescribe to the practice of tuning normally aspirated
on a base fuel, then adding the supplemental fuel for nitrous from
a separate supply system.....
Please consider this..:....when the nitrous is on this new cylinder pressure
and flame front characteristics are looking for weak link, that base engine fuel may be providing the weak link in the fuel slurry, the base engine fuel characteristics may be woefully inadequate to deal with the new
environment provided by the nitrous.....
and also, remember, you may have plenty of fuel for the fire, but if its not
stable, it doesnt matter how proper (rich) the mixture is, detonation and preignition
prevail......
and wfoe....the flowbench numbers may be helpful, but i would personally also simply
activate the fuel system, and let the nitrous nozzle pee fuel into separate little containers
so you can see what is coming out as a volume and weight from each nozzle/jet....
Joe :)
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joea and Stainless,
I just spent the last 90 minutes reading and rereading and now understand the "flowbench" readings we not the flow referred to as I surmised to be Superflow. I will beyond a doubt test the jets as described. I started a small file of cut and paste for the notes I ran across so I have something to review a couple times until it sinks in a bit. I am sure I will realize it is a tough challenge but I want to do it and have to start somewhere. The knowledge and imput on here is great.
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and please above all.....realize that you should take everything
we say with a big grain of salt.....our opinion/input might only steer
you as far as we have gone.....and that includes hurting stuff......
there is so much potential out there for far better speeds with nitrous
than has been touched thus far.....
Joe :)
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joea,
Not to worry, I am no virgin. Been around engines a long time and realize the risks, I just am glad Slim stepped up when Jon decided his tour of duty at the reins was finished. Losing this collective info would really hurt a lot of us. Atleast I now have a perspective of the perils of nos when going more than a 1/4 mile which I would not have initially even suspected without this groups imput. Knowledge is horsepower as much as any other component.
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Gosh, all of you have scared me so badly I think I will put the wet kit back on the shelf. Don't they say think outside the box to find performance others have not? How about just the other corner of the box? I always cut my lip when I try to lick the envelope. Twelve years ago I had a combo on my oil-cooled, but I never pushed the button. I think it is time to give it another try. Now where are those Tiger stickers? :-D Packard, that's the secret word, Groucho (Slim) did the little birdy come down and give me $$ ?
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Hey, good idea, Larry -- but no $$ in the envelope for you. George Fenneman took the money. You are the first one to notice the car-brand swear words, though (or at least the first that made a comment).
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Gosh, all of you have scared me so badly I think I will put the wet kit back on the shelf. Don't they say think outside the box to find performance others have not? How about just the other corner of the box? I always cut my lip when I try to lick the envelope. Twelve years ago I had a combo on my oil-cooled, but I never pushed the button. I think it is time to give it another try. Now where are those Tiger stickers? :-D Packard, that's the secret word, Groucho (Slim) did the little birdy come down and give me $$ ?
Larry, you ain't scare't of nuttin'... we all know that. Yep thinking outside the box and in the corners is how your and many other's records were set. There is not easy path for anyone looking for it, there is a path, it is not well marked and shit lurks at the dead ends.... :roll: Those seeking the easy path often find the cliff, more than once :-o Jump in the fray, I think I will jump back in myself... We still have a couple of large bottles of juice if the guys have not filled too many party balloons.
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Shit piss Fiat damn :-D
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You gotta love Slim's ingenuity!!! Bless his little snowbound heart!!
Lynda
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Watch your language, John, or next time I'll make it use your name(s).
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Now that's funny! :-D
My John Noonan John Noonan John Noonan John Noonan twice. :-o
Geo
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Watch your language, John, or next time I'll make it use your name(s).
Do it...did I miss any..?
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SSR Jon, you should at least match the first letter of the swear words with the first letter of the substitution, it is easy with cars, use the Automobile Dictionary if you need to....
And under that premise, Simca happens, so Dodge the bad luck if nobody gives a Ford who you Plymouth off, they are probably Abarths anyway.
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That's the stuff :mrgreen: Stainless you da man :cheers:
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Anyone play with propane as the "wet" component for nitrous?
It's common in the diesel world, and I've seen a few gas street cars at the drags doing it.
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Shit piss Fiat damn damned fucker asshole
Much better, great idea Stainless... :cheers: You old Buick
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Hayabusa, yes! Looks really good John! :cheers:
Mike
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If I decided to put a small shot of N2O (50HP to 100 HP plate ) in my lil 255 SBC motor, what intake/exhaust valve material would be more suitable for N2O SS or Ti ?
Charles
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Stainless, absolutely. Titanium can't take the heat. -Dean
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Thanks, I thought that SS was better but I have no experiance with the N2O
Charles
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It's Crazy!!!! :mrgreen:
Don't know if this is reasonable, but it's within my budget....................
I will be putting together my low tech flow bench this weekend. I will take a filled 5 gallon bucket and put each individual jet (pill) on a hose attached to it and use a stop watch to measure the flow rate and see if there are differences. :| :? :| I kind of feel stupid, but I guess I have to start somewhere. Guess I could always use it to do Colonics :-o
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Inconnel exhaust with Berlinum sp? seats will handle more heat transfer.
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Measuring volume should be done with a size unit close to the amount you are measuring. Less error due to clinging material left behind on the sides and bottom of your container.
For comparing or matching multiple items you should use the same measurement container for each item.
To measure total flow dump all running at the same time into a larger container that is near to the total volume using your pump and hoses on the car. This will show you how your system works and using your 5 gallon bucket run it for a few minutes to test battery, wires and pump as things heat up from electrical flow through the circuits.
You can change the time period to match the volume to your collection container.
Use the least flammable material possible. See the comparison charts below.
Thank Isaac Newton for your ability to go fast. :wink:
1 gallon = 16 cups = 3.7853 liters times 5 gallons
1 cup = 8 fluid ounces = 0.02366 liters
You should be able to use an 8 fluid ounce measurement safely. A five gallon bucket will be 80 times larger than the measured amount leading to high error in initial measurement and comparative measurement. I know you were joking about the handy 5 gallon bucket but we use what's handy and there might be a quart oil container or two about that would be a better. Remember “good” is beaten by “better”. 8-)
Viscosity Viscosity
[Pa·s] [cP]
ethanol* 1.074 × 10−3 1.074
methanol* 5.44 × 10−4 0.544
nitrobenzene* 1.863 × 10−3 1.863
water 8.94 × 10−4 0.894
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscosity
http://www.engineersedge.com/fluid_flow/fluid_data.htm
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/dynamic-absolute-kinematic-viscosity-d_412.html
Some typical viscosities (cP at 20°C)
methanol 0.6
water 1.0
ethanol 1.2
beer 1.8 :cheers:
corn oil 72
olive oil 84
motor oil SAE 20 125
motor oil SAE 50 540
castor oil 986
With a nice visual chart at http://www.fluidresearch.com/viscosity_chart1.php
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:pccQAI93ZW0J:www.hydramotion.com/pdf/Website_Viscosity_Units_V2.pdf+fluid+viscosity+unit&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us
Calculators
http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/dynamic_viscosity.htm
http://wps.aw.com/wps/media/objects/877/898586/topics/topic02.pdf
Geo
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some small syringes are handy and cheap for measuring
cc's or ml's, you can draw up fuel in each small container
and get a fairly accurate assessment...
then a weight per unit volume to later calculations...in figuring
lbs per hr-min-etc nitrous to fuel...
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T & B, your best results is to use the liquid you are going to use in the system at the pressures you plan to run. In other words, your bike can be part of your test bench. Just be careful. I would suggest baby food jars to catch the fuel. You should be able to do a 30 second test spraying fuel without overfilling. Don't allow any dripping after your release the button if possible. Weigh and number all of them, race gas will erase Sharpie, so be careful. Weigh each container, subtract jar weight and you have the weight of the fuel spraying into each cylinder. Running N20 test about the same, weigh the bottle, run 1 jet at a time for 30 sec, re-weigh, difference is the amount of N20 going in.
If you are very very lucky, the weights will be close to the same. Converting everything to Pounds per Hour will help with perspective. Try to put together matched sets of jets for quick change options. Have fun, race season is only several months away.
Joe, syringes are a good idea also.... you were typing while I was
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Geo,
Thank you for compiling the info and links, much appreciated. Now I need to set aside enough time to get a grasp on it.
J.R.
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and all this info after years of breathing the med grade stuff..simply amazing!
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Some Pictures of the cleaned up head with some nice fatty seats.
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0244.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0239.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0240.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0241.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0243.jpg)
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0245.jpg)
Bonus: Santa came early and left me some new plugs for the Old ZX-12 :cheers:
(http://i432.photobucket.com/albums/qq48/TRNorBRN6001/PICT0237.jpg)
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yep dems de right sparkin bolts...... knock those high spots out of your combustion chamber... yeah youll loose some compression but unshrouding the valves and opening up the combustion chamber is well worth it.... NOS likes a bigger chamber to fill
kent